AustinAustin Posted November 7, 2021 Author Share Posted November 7, 2021 13 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Granted. "Invented" was a poor choice of words. However, everything that exists existed before anybody (specifically human) invented/discovered/rationalized it, including the immaterial concepts of time, gravity, and Leprechaun-specific jock itch. None of that points to the existence of a god, much less to your personal conception of the christian god. Your argument is that if something exists, then it must have been created. Does god exist? If so, who/what created him, her, or it? Oh, you say god always existed without being specifically created? Perhaps the same is true for gravity, time, and, dare I say, logic. Except that logic cannot be created by or of anything in our Universe, proving God must Exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinAustin Posted November 7, 2021 Author Share Posted November 7, 2021 7 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: No. My argument is with your assertion that a) logic exists as an absolute and b) the existence of logic as an absolute proves the christian god exists. Logic may be the best standard of reason we presently have; but if it were an absolute, people wouldn't consistently run headlong into situations they hadn't ought. Because the absolute would prevent it. As it stands, people's propensity to acting and speaking without forethought precludes logic as an absolute. Again, though, even if logic existed as an absolute, it would not prove the existence of the christian god. In fact, the consistent application of absolute logic would lead to a flawless, nearly inerrant, humanity, rendering the christian god obsolete and unnecessary. Respectfully, most of your reply is wrong and doesn't make sense... Logic is the absolute standard of reason. If you disagree, your fight is with science, not me. This isn't mine, that's science... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinAustin Posted November 7, 2021 Author Share Posted November 7, 2021 18 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Granted. "Invented" was a poor choice of words. However, everything that exists existed before anybody (specifically human) invented/discovered/rationalized it, including the immaterial concepts of time, gravity, and Leprechaun-specific jock itch. None of that points to the existence of a god, much less to your personal conception of the christian god. Your argument is that if something exists, then it must have been created. Does god exist? If so, who/what created him, her, or it? Oh, you say god always existed without being specifically created? Perhaps the same is true for gravity, time, and, dare I say, logic. No, the Creator doesn't require a creator because the Creator is not subject to the rules of the creation. You bake cookies at 375 for ten minutes. You, the creator, do not need to be baked at 375 for ten minutes to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 7, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted November 7, 2021 13 minutes ago, AustinAustin said: Except that logic cannot be created by or of anything in our Universe, proving God must Exist. No, that does not prove that god must exist. It simply proves that logic exists and you have no other explanation for it so you assert god. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 7, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted November 7, 2021 6 minutes ago, AustinAustin said: Respectfully, most of your reply is wrong and doesn't make sense... Logic is the absolute standard of reason. If you disagree, your fight is with science, not me. This isn't mine, that's science... Respectfully, just because my answer doesn't make sense to you does not mean it is wrong. My argument is with you, not science. Your mere assertions are not going to change that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 7, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted November 7, 2021 6 minutes ago, AustinAustin said: No, the Creator doesn't require a creator because the Creator is not subject to the rules of the creation. You bake cookies at 375 for ten minutes. You, the creator, do not need to be baked at 375 for ten minutes to exist. Did god create itself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinAustin Posted November 7, 2021 Author Share Posted November 7, 2021 Something 11 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: No, that does not prove that god must exist. It simply proves that logic exists and you have no other explanation for it so you assert god. Logic does Exist, which is impossible without God. The Universe cannot create logic. The Universe cannot institute an absolute standard -that can be only by design. God is real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 7, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted November 7, 2021 1 minute ago, AustinAustin said: Something Logic does Exist, which is impossible without God. The Universe cannot create logic. The Universe cannot institute an absolute standard -that can be only by design. God is real. Again, mere assertion. One thought built upon another is not the same as logic, especially if the original thought is flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinAustin Posted November 7, 2021 Author Share Posted November 7, 2021 4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Again, mere assertion. One thought built upon another is not the same as logic, especially if the original thought is flawed. Please, explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 7, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted November 7, 2021 3 minutes ago, AustinAustin said: Please, explain. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 16 hours ago, AustinAustin said: Did you know that God can be found if you seek Him? Ahem. What part of "Ex-Christian" do you not comprehend? It's extremely rude of you to discount the experiences of all the people on this site who did seek your imaginary friend (often for many, many years) but came up empty-handed. If your god actually exists, it would know where to find us and what would convince us. Your services in that regard are not required, mortal. Shoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 2 hours ago, AustinAustin said: How does logic exist without a Creator? Simple. The "creator" can be any sentient being with the ability to observe cause-and-effect relationships. Divinity and supernaturalism are not required properties. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freshstart Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 1 hour ago, AustinAustin said: Logic does Exist, which is impossible without God. The Universe cannot create logic. The Universe cannot institute an absolute standard -that can be only by design. God is real. Let's just assume for a minute that "God is real," based on your argument about logic (which I don't find credible or coherent, but let's set that aside). How do you connect your discussion about logic with the Bible? The bible doesn't talk about logic, nor is logic used - or even alluded to - in biblical writings. In other words, perhaps God is real, but there is no reason to believe that God is the biblical god anymore than there is reason to believe that God is Zeus. Another question for your, Austin: what brings you to an ex-Christian website? Is there anything you are hoping to achieve by sharing your thoughts here? I am sincerely curious. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 17 hours ago, AustinAustin said: Did you know that God can be found if you seek Him? We live in a new era where age old questions are now being answered like never before. Proof of God is before you, if you want it: Why should there be an absolute standard of reasoning if everything is simply “molecules in motion”? Most atheists have a materialistic outlook—meaning they believe that everything that exists is material, or explained by material processes. But laws of logic are not material! If atheistic materialism is true, then there could be no laws of logic, since they are immaterial. Thus, logical reasoning would be impossible! if atheism were true, the atheist would not be able to reason or use laws of logic because such things would not be meaningful. How could there be laws at all without a lawgiver? Laws of logic owe their existence to the biblical God. Yet they are required to reason rationally, to prove things. So the biblical God must exist in order for reasoning to be possible. Therefore, the best proof of God’s existence is that without Him we couldn’t prove anything at all! The existence of the biblical God is the prerequisite for knowledge and rationality. Thank you for reading. Respectfully, this is a word-salad. And only that. "Why should there be an absolute standard of reasoning if everything is simply “molecules in motion”?" "But laws of logic are not material! " Meaningless. "Most atheists have a ..." Really? "—meaning they believe that everything that exists is material, or explained by material processes" Was there an international atheist's convention where this was codified and agreed upon? Why was I not invited? You are stringing together vague assertions and inferences to imply that you have knowledge ("Most atheists have a ...") which you do not have. If you expect anyone to take you seriously, stop using exclamation-points to infer that your sentences have meaning or import. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 4 hours ago, AustinAustin said: Hello DarkBishop, The Laws of logic are immaterial, and can't be materially made. If God isn't real, the laws of logic cannot exist. A rock cannot create logic, nor institute an absolute standard of reason. God is real. Taken at face value, this post suggests that you are mentally unbalanced. "A rock cannot create logic... God is real." Because a rock is a rock. And does nothing other than be a rock, this by inference yields proof that God is real? " If God isn't real, the laws of logic cannot exist." What specifically do you mean by "the laws of logic"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 1 hour ago, AustinAustin said: No, the Creator doesn't require a creator because the Creator is not subject to the rules of the creation... And you would know this, how? What precisely are "the rules of the creation"? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinAustin Posted November 7, 2021 Author Share Posted November 7, 2021 51 minutes ago, Astreja said: Ahem. What part of "Ex-Christian" do you not comprehend? It's extremely rude of you to discount the experiences of all the people on this site who did seek your imaginary friend (often for many, many years) but came up empty-handed. If your god actually exists, it would know where to find us and what would convince us. Your services in that regard are not required, mortal. Shoo. God has given you proof... and I will be happy to show you more of it than you knew existed, if you would like? Do you want to know if God is real? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 Just now, AustinAustin said: Do you want to know if God is real? Aw... go on, tell us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinAustin Posted November 7, 2021 Author Share Posted November 7, 2021 23 minutes ago, freshstart said: Let's just assume for a minute that "God is real," based on your argument about logic (which I don't find credible or coherent, but let's set that aside). How do you connect your discussion about logic with the Bible? The bible doesn't talk about logic, nor is logic used - or even alluded to - in biblical writings. In other words, perhaps God is real, but there is no reason to believe that God is the biblical god anymore than there is reason to believe that God is Zeus. Another question for your, Austin: what brings you to an ex-Christian website? Is there anything you are hoping to achieve by sharing your thoughts here? I am sincerely curious. Hello Freshstart. Part of the reason that we can know God is the Creator is because Genesis description of the Creation is logical, when such things weren't more commonly known and understood by the masses. An atheist suggested I join the site. I want to share His Word, and help others to clear up misunderstandings so that all will recognize Jesus Christ as God and Savior. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinAustin Posted November 7, 2021 Author Share Posted November 7, 2021 20 minutes ago, alreadyGone said: Taken at face value, this post suggests that you are mentally unbalanced. "A rock cannot create logic... God is real." Because a rock is a rock. And does nothing other than be a rock, this by inference yields proof that God is real? " If God isn't real, the laws of logic cannot exist." What specifically do you mean by "the laws of logic"? The Universe is material, such as rock. Logic is immaterial. Material cannot create immaterial, therefore logic should not exist. God is real. Logic is the absolute standard of reason. An absolute standard cannot exist without Design. God is real. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinAustin Posted November 7, 2021 Author Share Posted November 7, 2021 19 minutes ago, alreadyGone said: And you would know this, how? What precisely are "the rules of the creation"? It's self-evident. No, the Creator doesn't require a creator because the Creator is not subject to the rules of the creation. You bake cookies at 375 for ten minutes. You, the creator, do not need to be baked at 375 for ten minutes to exist. I'm sorry, that ws a bit of a typo, should be rule of Creation. All that exists must go through a kind of creation process to exist. Birth, manufacture, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 Austin, I believe that you sincerely believe that you are actually speaking rational sense here. I wish you the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 7, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted November 7, 2021 https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2021/07/06/did-the-universe-have-a-beginning/?sh=101d46534100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinAustin Posted November 7, 2021 Author Share Posted November 7, 2021 49 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2021/07/06/did-the-universe-have-a-beginning/?sh=101d46534100 Just share the pertinent information, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinAustin Posted November 7, 2021 Author Share Posted November 7, 2021 53 minutes ago, alreadyGone said: Austin, I believe that you sincerely believe that you are actually speaking rational sense here. I wish you the best. God is calling you to life while theres still time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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