God is Real

[sdelsolray]

52 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

If it were true that logic's existence were dependent upon humanity, then as soon as we were gone, logic would also be gone. However, if humanity were gone, this modus ponens would still be logical, proving your idea wrong, respectfully.

...

 

If humans (and other sentient species capable of employing or contemplating logical thinking) were non-existent, there would be no situs in which any logical (or attempted logical) thought could occur, including your thought that "this modus ponens would still be logical".  Accordingly, I believe your argument is flawed.

 

Your argument:

 

P1  Logical thinking is dependent on humanity existing

P2  Humanity does not exist

C1  Logical thinking still exists

 

Do you see the flaw?  Assuming P1 and P2 are true, C1 simply does not follow at all.  How's that for use of modus ponens?

 

52 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

...

Logic cannot exist without God. God is real, and so is Hell.

A mere assertion and a side salad of two non-sequiturs.  You keep using logically fallacies.  Why?

[alreadyGone]

1 hour ago, AustinAustin said:

God is the King, you don't summon the King.

 

If you didn't believe in POTUS, and had the same standard, what are the chances POTUS would come talk to you?...

 

God has given you ample proof. The logic example is proof.

 

Why would I care whether the President of the US noticed me or not?

 

Here's a tip for you... There is no lawful reason for the Federal government or any federal agents to be involved in my life at all, ever, unless I violate federal law.

 

The President is a federal agent, an elected administrator of the federal government.

His position and authority, and the power of his office have nothing whatever to do with me or my life.

 

We do not have kings in the United States.

 

[Joshpantera]

4 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

Why would I care whether the President of the US noticed me or not?

 

The answer is that this poor guy is horribly deluded right now, just as many of us once were. He can't formulate a logical argument to save his life while in that state of mind. He has the only thing that he can have - presuppositional assumptions. What does anything he has to say have to do with anything? 

 

It's 4 pages of attempted confirmation bias. Analogies about the POTUS get him nowhere. It's irrelevant. And he's becoming increasing hostile to towards the fact that he's unable to prove his points. He'll pop at some point. And we'll be there when he does.....

[Astreja]

11 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

We do not have kings in the United States.

 

I'm Canadian, and I actually have seen Queen Elizabeth (and the late Prince Philip as well) with my own eyes when they visited Winnipeg a few years ago.  I don't have to believe that she exists.  I know that she exists.

 

Funny how the alleged King of the Whole Fucking Universe is less convincing than 95-year-old Betty Windsor from London, wot?  

[sdelsolray]

1 hour ago, AustinAustin said:

Im sorry, my modus ponens file size is too large.

 

This is the first time I have noticed someone confusing their ego with modus ponens.  It's actually somewhat comical.

[alreadyGone]

Josh, understood.

 

His reference first to god as "a/the king", followed by reference to the President (of the U.S.) only illustrates and highlights the point.

 

He assumes (as many do) that the President has some lawful authority over individual Americans. That oh-too-common assumption and belief is born of ignorance.

He's 38 years old. Assuming that he is a citizen of the U.S. he has no excuse for that ignorance.

But again, it's quite common. It does however point to a lack of critical thinking and reliance on blind assumption.

 

[Astreja]

7 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

The answer is that this poor guy is horribly deluded right now, just as many of us once were. He can't formulate a logical argument to save his life while in that state of mind.

 

It really is pathetic - didn't even bring a knife to the gun fight.  Austin, why are you here?  Whatever possessed you to come here to try to preach to us?

[alreadyGone]

4 minutes ago, Astreja said:

 

I'm Canadian, and I actually have seen Queen Elizabeth (and the late Prince Philip as well) with my own eyes when they visited Winnipeg a few years ago.  I don't have to believe that she exists.  I know that she exists.

 

Funny how the alleged King of the Whole Fucking Universe is less convincing than 95-year-old Betty Windsor from London, wot?  

 

Oh, you're a saucy one, you are.

 

[sdelsolray]

Hey folks, let's give Austin some breathing space.  Perhaps he will learn something while he is here.  We can always hope.

[Astreja]

Just now, alreadyGone said:

 

You're a saucy one, you are.

 

 

*curtsies* Tank ewe!

[alreadyGone]

1 minute ago, sdelsolray said:

Hey folks, let's give Austin some breathing space.  Perhaps he will learn something while he is here.  We can always hope.

 

Agreed.

 

Austin, I wish you well.

I hope that if you feel moved to do so you will continue the discussion.

Take care of yourself.

[Joshpantera]

2 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

Hey folks, let's give Austin some breathing space.  Perhaps he will learn something while he is here.  We can always hope.

 

Austin needs to pump the brakes and try and look at his position with some more perspective. Yes, we should give him some breathing room. He currently has no argument. But he can regroup and try and come again. 

[freshstart]

5 hours ago, AustinAustin said:

 

 

Austin, have you ever asked yourself how it is that God came to need people to do his work, to bring other people to salvation?  If he can't do this on his own, that makes God impotent.

 

[freshstart]

49 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

Austin needs to pump the brakes and try and look at his position with some more perspective.

Well the ironic thing about that is that people who have been brainwashed with Christianity are often incapable of having "more perspective," particularly within the span of a few hours or a few days.  Many of us took years to allow ourselves to explore the deep questions lurking within, let alone come to different conclusions.  Sometimes coming to a site like this is a baby step, a mere dipping of a toe in the waters of critical thinking.  It doesn't mean they are ready (or able) to jump in. Its frustrating, but we can't expect too much too quickly from those still under the spell of Christianity.   

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

13 hours ago, AustinAustin said:

Hello. If the immaterial can exist, then that opens the door for God's Existence.

 

This may have already been mentioned. I have to play catch up as I sleep during the day on work days. But science can't prove a negetive. Here I will give you a reference and post a snippet. This is in the words of Richard Carrier. But please read the whole chapter and the next. "Proof of a negative claim" for a more detailed explanation because it is really to long for me to copy and paste the whole thing. 

 

https://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm

 

"Proof of a Negative Claim

So you simply cannot prove general claims that are negative claims -- one cannot prove that ghosts do not exist; one cannot prove that leprechauns too do not exist. One simply cannot prove a negative and general claim. 

"Negative statements often make claims that are hard to prove because they make predictions about things we are in practice unable to observe in a finite time. For instance, "there are no big green Martians" means "there are no big green Martians in this or any universe," and unlike your bathtub, it is not possible to look in every corner of every universe, thus we cannot completely test this proposition--we can just look around within the limits of our ability and our desire to expend time and resources on looking, and prove that, where we have looked so far, and within the limits of our knowing anything at all, there are no big green Martians. In such a case we have proved a negative, just not the negative of the sweeping proposition in question."-Richard Carrier, "Proving a Negative "(1999) by Richard Carrier  at  http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/theory.html "

 

As a Non-thiest I do not claim that there is no God. However I do claim that there is no Judea/Christian/Islamic "Biblical God". The Bible makes a great number of claims that can be proven false. Such as the biblical story of creation. We know through a wide range of different sciences that the narrative is just not true. We know through writing analysis and archeology that it wasn't a single person, or even a single period of time that the pentetuch was written. Likewise with the writings of Paul. Some epistles still preached and published today are proven forgeries that even Christian Scholars in academia admit are forgeries. We know through science that the story of Noah's ark is not even possible. Not because it is in the Bible but because there is no evidence of a world wide flood of that scale, the Ark could not have held 2 of all the animals in the world in existence today let alone back then, 2 of each animal couldn't have repopulated any species, and one family couldn't have repopulated earth's human population. 

 

I think that's enough but the list goes on and on of biblical claims that can be proven false that there is no real reason to believe in a biblical God. The Biblical God is just not real. A figment of some ancient persons imagination. A creative story to explain to his or her children why certain things happen in the world according to their extremely limited understanding of the world. 

 

Using the professors logic explanation from earlier. 

 

If A=B and B=C Then A=C

 

If A= the Bible is the word of God

If B= Gods word is true (in most cases inerrent)

If C= The biblical God is real

 

Then if 

 

Claim A- can be proven to have forgeries written by man. And a whole foundation not written by the biblically accepted author. (Moses) 

 

Claim B- can be proven false on multiple fronts

 

Then Claim C is False. 

 

The logical conclusion is that the Biblical God is not real. 

 

Likewise his angels and the Devil are also not real. 

 

DB

[Joshpantera]

2 hours ago, freshstart said:

Well the ironic thing about that is that people who have been brainwashed with Christianity are often incapable of having "more perspective," particularly within the span of a few hours or a few days.  Many of us took years to allow ourselves to explore the deep questions lurking within, let alone come to different conclusions.  Sometimes coming to a site like this is a baby step, a mere dipping of a toe in the waters of critical thinking.  It doesn't mean they are ready (or able) to jump in. Its frustrating, but we can't expect too much too quickly from those still under the spell of Christianity.   

 

I don't expect much from him at all in the state of mind he's displayed here. I'm just giving him a fair chance to try and do better. The smart money says, he's not capable of doing any better than this. But to be diplomatic about it.........

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

4 hours ago, freshstart said:

Well the ironic thing about that is that people who have been brainwashed with Christianity are often incapable of having "more perspective," particularly within the span of a few hours or a few days.  Many of us took years to allow ourselves to explore the deep questions lurking within, let alone come to different conclusions.  Sometimes coming to a site like this is a baby step, a mere dipping of a toe in the waters of critical thinking.  It doesn't mean they are ready (or able) to jump in. Its frustrating, but we can't expect too much too quickly from those still under the spell of Christianity.   

This is very true

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

13 hours ago, AustinAustin said:

Hello Freshstart. Part of the reason that we can know God is the Creator is because Genesis description of the Creation is logical, when such things weren't more commonly known and understood by the masses.

 

An atheist suggested I join the site. I want to share His Word, and help others to clear up misunderstandings so that all will recognize Jesus Christ as God and Savior.

 

 Please see my above post in reference to Genesis. This is funny. The biblical creation is logical. Please tell me your doing stand up comedy right now!!!! LMAOROTFL!!!

 

HERE IS YOUR BIBLICAL CREATION!!!! 

 

 

This is your biblical creation. Another claim of the Bible that has been disproven by science. 

 

Does this scene look logical to you? Read the description of the biblical creation and this is what you get. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

18 hours ago, AustinAustin said:

Except that logic cannot be created by or of anything in our Universe, proving God must Exist.

 

I gotta say this here. Logic was "created" by humans because we have cognitive thought. We can solve problems. We are the creators of logic. We are also the creators of the biblical, Greek, Persian, Hindu, pagan, or any other "God" worshipped by man on this planet. We created all of that when our logic was to explain anything we didn't yet understand with some type of deity or supernatural phenomenon. 

 

As our knowledge grew or logic changed. What was once logical to explain why a volcano erupted 3000 years ago is no longer logical now. Or should we start sacrificing virgins to the God's of the underworld again? 

 

The whole basis of your argument is idiotic. I'm sorry it is. Your gonna have to do a bit better if your going to convince any of us your God is real. 

 

I mean this is the God that smote Sodom and Gemmorah, Lead the isrealites by a pillar of fire and smoke, made dead men rise from the grave, healed the blind, brought plagues upon Egypt, toppled the walls of Jericho, confused the languages of man, gave Solomon his wisdom, made Jesus walk on water, caused the very shadow of Peter to heal people, protected meshach, shadrach, and abednego while they were immersed in a great fire that even the smell of smoke wasn't on them, And the best he can do is send you here to say logic can't exist without God so God is real? 

 

Come on!!!! Surely he's got better evidence than that!!!! 

 

I mean I hate to be harsh here. But you appear to be a grown ass man. The burden of proof is on you. And I don't see it. 

 

What your not realizing is that I once did. I stood before congregations and preached his word, felt his spirit, loved him and his son, truly wanted to know the truth and spread his truth. Lead people to the lord so they could feel his presence like I felt his presence. But in the end I found that it was all a lie. No more truthful than Santa clause. 

 

Do you know how I lost my faith? LOGIC! I looked at the lack of proof for the biblical narrative versus the immeasurable proof for various scientific narratives and concluded that the Bible was a lie.

 

Put yourself in some of our shoes. For me that was crushing. My whole fabric of reality was pulled from beneath me. 

 

But I wouldn't change a damn thing. Because I know more truth about God's word now than I could have ever gained from a lifetime of biblical study as a christian. 

 

DB

 

[midniterider]

On 11/6/2021 at 4:12 PM, AustinAustin said:

Did you know that God can be found if you seek Him? We live in a new era where age old questions are now being answered like never before. Proof of God is before you, if you want it:

 

Why should there be an absolute standard of reasoning if everything is simply “molecules in motion”? Most atheists have a materialistic outlook—meaning they believe that everything that exists is material, or explained by material processes. But laws of logic are not material! If atheistic materialism is true, then there could be no laws of logic, since they are immaterial. Thus, logical reasoning would be impossible! if atheism were true, the atheist would not be able to reason or use laws of logic because such things would not be meaningful. How could there be laws at all without a lawgiver? Laws of logic owe their existence to the biblical God. Yet they are required to reason rationally, to prove things. So the biblical God must exist in order for reasoning to be possible. Therefore, the best proof of God’s existence is that without Him we couldn’t prove anything at all! The existence of the biblical God is the prerequisite for knowledge and rationality. 

 

Thank you for reading.

 

P1: If Jesus existed he wouldnt let Austin write half-baked nonsense like the OP. 

P2: Austin wrote half-baked nonsense.

Therefore Jesus doesn't exist. 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

14 hours ago, freshstart said:

Please don't feel personally liable for trying to "save" us. We know that we don't need salvation, but we remember what it was like to be in your shoes and how dreadful it was to imagine that our words and actions might influence the eternal lives of others. (One of the many terrible things that Biblical beliefs inflict upon the mind/emotions). I can't speak for everybody, but I'd like to think that we all absolve you of any responsibility here in trying to change our minds. I hope that gives you some peace.

 

After my harsh response to you in my last post @AustinAustin I would also like to refresh freshstarts post here and say. You are not responsible for my immortal soul. Dont feel bad in the likely event no one here converts back to Christianity. 

 

@freshstart this is a very good comment and something that I forget sometimes when speaking to Christians on this site. Thanks for pointing it out. There were many times that I felt worthless to God when I couldn't lead others to the Lord. 

[AustinAustin]

12 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Again, you haven't even gotten to anything logical yet, Austin. You've begun with an illogical assertion and then dug your heels in the sand without proving your initial, faulty assertion. 

Logic exists.

 

Logic cannot be made by or of anything in the Universe, therefore logic should not exist.

 

Logic is the absolute standard of reason. An absolute standard (a rule) can exist only by design.

 

God is real. 

[AustinAustin]

12 hours ago, Astreja said:

 

Perhaps -- but it's literally the only thing that has even a slight chance of convincing me.

No, by your own admission, even that you would question, would be fallible.

Did you know that you can't prove you exist? It's a very old philosophical question that remains unsolved. No one can prove that they exist.

 

satan uses a loaded question to dupe you into rejecting God.

[AustinAustin]

12 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

 

Why would I care whether the President of the US noticed me or not?

 

Here's a tip for you... There is no lawful reason for the Federal government or any federal agents to be involved in my life at all, ever, unless I violate federal law.

 

The President is a federal agent, an elected administrator of the federal government.

His position and authority, and the power of his office have nothing whatever to do with me or my life.

 

We do not have kings in the United States.

 

Respectfully, you've missed the point.

[AustinAustin]

12 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

If humans (and other sentient species capable of employing or contemplating logical thinking) were non-existent, there would be no situs in which any logical (or attempted logical) thought could occur, including your thought that "this modus ponens would still be logical".  Accordingly, I believe your argument is flawed.

 

Your argument:

 

P1  Logical thinking is dependent on humanity existing

P2  Humanity does not exist

C1  Logical thinking still exists

 

Do you see the flaw?  Assuming P1 and P2 are true, C1 simply does not follow at all.  How's that for use of modus ponens?

 

A mere assertion and a side salad of two non-sequiturs.  You keep using logically fallacies.  Why?

Agreed, if all life wre gone, none in this Universe would be able to consider whether the modus ponens were logical or not, but it would still be logical, proving yoru idea wrong that logic's existence is dependent upon humanity, respectfully.