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Goodbye Jesus

God is Real


AustinAustin

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12 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

The answer is that this poor guy is horribly deluded right now, just as many of us once were. He can't formulate a logical argument to save his life while in that state of mind. He has the only thing that he can have - presuppositional assumptions. What does anything he has to say have to do with anything? 

 

It's 4 pages of attempted confirmation bias. Analogies about the POTUS get him nowhere. It's irrelevant. And he's becoming increasing hostile to towards the fact that he's unable to prove his points. He'll pop at some point. And we'll be there when he does.....

When considering the origins of the Universe and the Existence of God, we use different methods to communicate ideas about and proof of the most complex ideas in Existence...

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12 hours ago, Astreja said:

 

I'm Canadian, and I actually have seen Queen Elizabeth (and the late Prince Philip as well) with my own eyes when they visited Winnipeg a few years ago.  I don't have to believe that she exists.  I know that she exists.

 

Funny how the alleged King of the Whole Fucking Universe is less convincing than 95-year-old Betty Windsor from London, wot?  :grin:

Did you summon her, and she came to you at your beck and call?


What would happen if you did, would she?

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12 hours ago, Astreja said:

 

It really is pathetic - didn't even bring a knife to the gun fight.  Austin, why are you here?  Whatever possessed you to come here to try to preach to us?

15 And if [e]anyone’s name was not found [f]written in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.

 

16 “For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave His [One and] [a]only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life. 

 

 18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because [b]he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him].

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11 hours ago, freshstart said:

 

Austin, have you ever asked yourself how it is that God came to need people to do his work, to bring other people to salvation?  If he can't do this on his own, that makes God impotent.

 

God died on the cross to pay for the sins of the entire world -He has given all of us salvation. He explains this in His Word, but many refuse Him.

We His Children want to be like our Father, and so we unselfishly are sent to reach you all, hoping none will go to Hell. :)

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9 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

This may have already been mentioned. I have to play catch up as I sleep during the day on work days. But science can't prove a negetive. Here I will give you a reference and post a snippet. This is in the words of Richard Carrier. But please read the whole chapter and the next. "Proof of a negative claim" for a more detailed explanation because it is really to long for me to copy and paste the whole thing. 

 

https://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm

 

"Proof of a Negative Claim

So you simply cannot prove general claims that are negative claims -- one cannot prove that ghosts do not exist; one cannot prove that leprechauns too do not exist. One simply cannot prove a negative and general claim. 

"Negative statements often make claims that are hard to prove because they make predictions about things we are in practice unable to observe in a finite time. For instance, "there are no big green Martians" means "there are no big green Martians in this or any universe," and unlike your bathtub, it is not possible to look in every corner of every universe, thus we cannot completely test this proposition--we can just look around within the limits of our ability and our desire to expend time and resources on looking, and prove that, where we have looked so far, and within the limits of our knowing anything at all, there are no big green Martians. In such a case we have proved a negative, just not the negative of the sweeping proposition in question."-Richard Carrier, "Proving a Negative "(1999) by Richard Carrier  at  http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/theory.html "

 

As a Non-thiest I do not claim that there is no God. However I do claim that there is no Judea/Christian/Islamic "Biblical God". The Bible makes a great number of claims that can be proven false. Such as the biblical story of creation. We know through a wide range of different sciences that the narrative is just not true. We know through writing analysis and archeology that it wasn't a single person, or even a single period of time that the pentetuch was written. Likewise with the writings of Paul. Some epistles still preached and published today are proven forgeries that even Christian Scholars in academia admit are forgeries. We know through science that the story of Noah's ark is not even possible. Not because it is in the Bible but because there is no evidence of a world wide flood of that scale, the Ark could not have held 2 of all the animals in the world in existence today let alone back then, 2 of each animal couldn't have repopulated any species, and one family couldn't have repopulated earth's human population. 

 

I think that's enough but the list goes on and on of biblical claims that can be proven false that there is no real reason to believe in a biblical God. The Biblical God is just not real. A figment of some ancient persons imagination. A creative story to explain to his or her children why certain things happen in the world according to their extremely limited understanding of the world. 

 

Using the professors logic explanation from earlier. 

 

If A=B and B=C Then A=C

 

If A= the Bible is the word of God

If B= Gods word is true (in most cases inerrent)

If C= The biblical God is real

 

Then if 

 

Claim A- can be proven to have forgeries written by man. And a whole foundation not written by the biblically accepted author. (Moses) 

 

Claim B- can be proven false on multiple fronts

 

Then Claim C is False. 

 

The logical conclusion is that the Biblical God is not real. 

 

Likewise his angels and the Devil are also not real. 

 

DB

Such a small system used to disqualify the Existence of God... You "legalize" God right out of Existence.

 

Please deeply consider teh logic example I've shared, it is proof of God. Please.

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Everyone: Please consider, how does logic exist? How can an absolute standard exist?

 

Without God, such cannot exist.

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23 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

Logic exists.

 

Logic cannot be made by or of anything in the Universe, therefore logic should not exist.

 

Logic is the absolute standard of reason. An absolute standard (a rule) can exist only by design.

 

God is real. 

 

Humans clearly created the concept of logic. 

 

Logic was created by humans according to the evidence. It does exist and should exist as a human concept. 

 

Logic isn't absolute as already pointed out to you several times. It changes as our mental comprehension changes. And it's a fluid and changing design created by human beings. 

 

God doesn't even factor in to the equation. 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

No, by your own admission, even that you would question, would be fallible.


Did you know that you can't prove you exist? It's a very old philosophical question that remains unsolved. No one can prove that they exist.

 

satan uses a loaded question to dupe you into rejecting God.

 

"I think, therefore I am."

 

 

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5 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

There were many times that I felt worthless to God when I couldn't lead others to the Lord.

This was one of the "little things that added up" for me.  I had always been told not to worry too much if people didn't accept christ right away whenever I witnessed to them because the lord would bring them to salvation in his own time.  As it is written, "Paul planted the seed, Appllonius watered it; but the lord brought the harvest." 

 

Well, I planted more seeds than Monsanto has patents for; and nary a one of them ever so much as sprouted.  Nary a god damn one.  I always felt like a used vacuum cleaner salesman doing it, too; especially as our church actually did door-to-door evangelism.  I always felt like maybe my "pitch" just wasn't good enough.  Maybe I came on too strong, or not strong enough, or just didn't stress the right points.  Then I started wondering why an omnipotent god wouldn't be able to work through me anyway.  Shouldn't he be able to reach the lost in spite of my flawed presentations?  Yet he never quite seemed to be able to close the deal even with all the opportunities I gave him.  

 

Maybe the problem wasn't me...

 

It's okay, @AustinAustin, if none of us gets "saved" by your "logic proves god" pitch.  It ain't your fault.  It's just because jesus ain't real.

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37 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

Everyone: Please consider, how does logic exist? How can an absolute standard exist?

 

Without God, such cannot exist.

 

You're talking to people who once thought like you. And then opened their minds to a much larger sphere of consciousness and comprehension. How could anything exist unless a god created it all? That was the mental place that we were once in, like you are now. You can't wrap your mind around anything else, clearly. 

 

But we can, and we do. Because we've spent years to decades with these issues. Considering them, reconsidering them, pouring over debates and arguments and seeing where they all lead. I'm 30 years out of my church. That's 30 years of experience debating and dealing with apologist's like you with your current mind set. 

 

It's not possible for you to see from our perspective unless you recognize that you're operating on completely unproven and contrary to all of the available evidence assertions. You have to pre-assume that a god exists without proving it and then claim that everything has to come from your pre-assumed, and unproven god.

 

And that will never work out for you with logic or philosophy. The logic that does exist today suggests that you're wrong from the outset. You haven't established any of this as absolute or true. You haven't established the truth of your positive claims. You just make unproven assertions again and again in a circular fashion. 

 

You are "logic leaping," to conclusions. Logic exists therefore YHWH??? 

 

It doesn't work. 

 

Christmas presents exist, therefore Santa!!!

 

That's what your argument amounts to from a logical standpoint. No one can prove that Santa doesn't exist, but that's besides the point. No one can prove that Santa does exist, which is the real point. The burden of proof requirement for the positive claim is not met. This is identical to your existence of god argument. 

 

The existence of presents under the tree (logic) only points back to human beings putting the presents (logic) there. It never proves the existence of Santa (god). 

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I'm going to transfer this post over from the theory of stupidity thread: 

 

  On 10/31/2021 at 9:50 PM, freshstart said:

I used to think this (and still do sometimes) but I think the issue is (and I believe there's been research on this), people make decisions based on emotion rather than logic. We decide what to eat, what job to pursue, who to sleep with, etc. based on emotional satisfaction, not logic. Even the smartest people marry a person that isnt right for them, or make silly financial decisons, etc., etc. So why wouldn't the same thing apply to a belief system that doesn't make logical sense? Emotion rules our decisions.

To me that poses 2 questions: (1) how does this common flaw (allowing emotions to guide us rather than logic) work for evolutionary survival purposes? Perhaps there is good reason for this? And (2) what would it take to make a logical choice more appealing when the illogical choice feels like the better choice?

 

Freshstart,

 

I agree with Josh.  These are excellent questions.

 

 

(1) how does this common flaw (allowing emotions to guide us rather than logic) work for evolutionary survival purposes?

 

Ok, how about this? 

 

For hundreds of millions of years animals have been guided solely by instinct.  This is because the apparatus for making logical decisions (a complex brain) simply wasn't around.  The large primate brain is a newcomer and carries within it a great deal of baggage from the instinct-driven past.  We know this because we've discovered that the neocortex sits on top of earlier, more primitive structures in the brain.  If this is true, then logical thinking and logical thought is also a newcomer; a new thing that sits upon the greater mass of primitive instincts and behaviours, much as the bulk of an iceberg is hidden below the waterline.

 

In evolutionary terms animals have managed to survive and thrive without logic for 99.9 % of the history of life on Earth.  So, clearly logical thought does not play a key role in the survival of the fittest.  At least, not for most of the animal kingdom.  Most animals get by on instinct and if something works well enough then there is no evolutionary incentive to change anything or to take unnecessary risks.

 

I suppose what I'm struggling to say here is that we seem to be encumbered by our instinct-driven past and its little wonder that the new kid on the block (logic) struggles against all of these impediments.

 

 

(2) What would it take to make a logical choice more appealing when the illogical choice feels like the better choice?

 

Nothing can do this.

 

This is a case of comparing apples and oranges.  Logic is not about sugar coating anything.  It is simply a tool that delivers the goods, with no subtext and no agenda.   

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

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43 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

Such a small system used to disqualify the Existence of God... You "legalize" God right out of Existence.

 

Please deeply consider teh logic example I've shared, it is proof of God. Please.

 

Ok. Now your pissing me off. It was no easy process for me to come to the realization that the Bible was shit. It wasn't a small thing. I delved into the subject at multiple angles to make sure that the conclusion I had come to was correct. I did not fail God. GOD FAILED ME! 

 

Austin I have considered it. Your obviously not reading the all of my posts. So not only are we not worthy enough for you to click on links we share with you. But you can't read our whole replies. 

 

The only reason there is logic is because we created logical thought. We invented through our own evolution. The biblical God does not exist. And there is still logic in the world. 

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Austin's argument is based on taking an emotional based claim (god exists) and present it as if it were a logical claim, when it clearly is not. It only has subjective, emotional based, and essential survival oriented leftover tendencies going for it. Austin presuppposes from an emotional perspective that a god must exist for anything else to exist. That's not logical at all. Nor is logical to think that you'll live forever if you find favor with the illogical god. That's just the human ego fearful of it's mortality and wanting to believe, while it's alive, that it can transcend the grave and live forever. It wants to survive, not die.....

 

The whole thing is emotional based and appeals to egoic consciousness. It runs contrary to stone cold, emotionless logic. 

 

But nevertheless, Austin cites the existence of "logic" as evidence for the existence of god. Failing to understand that logical thought is a 'new comer' and not absolute or eternally existent. And clearly in Austin's mind the emotional choice is much more appealing than the logical choice. So much so, that he's deluded himself into thinking that his emotional choice IS the logical choice, when we can clearly see and illustrate that it is not. 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

But nevertheless, Austin cites the existence of "logic" as evidence for the existence of god. Failing to understand that logical thought is a 'new comer' and not absolute or eternally existent. And clearly in Austin's mind the emotional choice is much more appealing than the logical choice. So much so, that he's deluded himself into thinking that his emotional choice IS the logical choice, when we can clearly see and illustrate that it is not. 

 

I think Austin's athiest friend set him up knowing this would happen. I bet they are laughing their asses off reading this thread. 

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1 minute ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I think Austin's athiest friend set him up knowing this would happen. I bet they are laughing their asses off reading this thread. 

If he actually has an "atheist" friend.  His opening statement convinces me he's never been within 10 miles of an atheist.

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47 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

And clearly in Austin's mind the emotional choice is much more appealing than the logical choice.

Maybe it's just my own experience; but it seems to me that a fair number of the people I know who went through extreme childhood indoctrination ended up completely disconnected from their emotions to the point of not even recognizing them or mistaking them for something else.  Perhaps the constant reinforcement of "this feels right...", "I feel like god is saying...", "I felt the lord...", conditioned us to disregard our true "human" emotions in exchange for godly, "spiritual" ones.  There was a time at which I wouldn't even realize I was pissed at someone until 3 weeks after they did whatever they did.  That's how emotionally detached I was.  I still struggle sometimes and will occasionally take a quick break to assess my emotions before proceeding.  It's a lot better now; but I still sometimes feel like I use too many "quotation marks" in my posts.

 

Austin probably feels like he is being logical, because he has built one thought upon another; but, as I said in my first response to him, he really doesn't understand logic.  He feels like the lord has shown him all of this; and, for him, it feels like proof, true and proper.  But when we don't feel the same way, he switches from "logical" arguments to frothy emotional appeals: "god is real and so is hell!", "please consider my proof while there is still time!", "god is calling out to each one of you!"  It's an emotional roller-coaster for him.  Bless his heart.

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21 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If he actually has an "atheist" friend.  His opening statement convinces me he's never been within 10 miles of an atheist.

 

😮 surely your not suggesting that Austin sinned and is lying to us!! 

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11 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

😮 surely your not suggesting that Austin sinned and is lying to us!! 

No.  I'm sure he feels like his friend is an atheist.  😉

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2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Humans clearly created the concept of logic. 

 

Logic was created by humans according to the evidence. It does exist and should exist as a human concept. 

 

Logic isn't absolute as already pointed out to you several times. It changes as our mental comprehension changes. And it's a fluid and changing design created by human beings. 

 

God doesn't even factor in to the equation. 

 

 

There is no evidence that humanity created logic. Logic is the absolute standard of reason -google it -your battle is now with science regarding this fact, not me. Logic does not change.

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2 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Ok. Now your pissing me off. It was no easy process for me to come to the realization that the Bible was shit. It wasn't a small thing. I delved into the subject at multiple angles to make sure that the conclusion I had come to was correct. I did not fail God. GOD FAILED ME! 

 

Austin I have considered it. Your obviously not reading the all of my posts. So not only are we not worthy enough for you to click on links we share with you. But you can't read our whole replies. 

 

The only reason there is logic is because we created logical thought. We invented through our own evolution. The biblical God does not exist. And there is still logic in the world. 

Remember, logic disappears with humanity if it's existence is dependent upon humanity, however, modus ponens would still be logical if humanity were gone -that proves humanity didn't invent logic and that it's existence isn't dependent upon humanity.

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2 hours ago, AustinAustin said:

Respectfully, you've missed the point.

 

I don't think so.

My post was slightly off-topic, only to make a point to you which it appears you missed.

 

No matter, you continue to evade the simple question I asked:

What objective reason do we have to believe that there is any spirit being of any kind anywhere?

Human spirit, god, angel, demon, whatever.

 

What precisely is a spirit?

 

If you expect me to take seriously your admonition that there is a god, an omnipotent spirit being who created me (or you) as a physical temporal with an eternal spirit, then tell me what a spirit is.

 

The bible doesn't tell you what a spirit is, the bible only attaches various attributes to something called a spirit, which it purports to exist.

That being the case, from where do you get any actual definition of a spirit?

What is your definition of the word "spirit"?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

Remember, logic disappears with humanity if it's existence is dependent upon humanity, ...

 

My existence depended on my father impregnating my mother.

I don't believe you can make the case that your existence happened any other way.

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1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Maybe it's just my own experience; but it seems to me that a fair number of the people I know who went through extreme childhood indoctrination ended up completely disconnected from their emotions to the point of not even recognizing them or mistaking them for something else.  Perhaps the constant reinforcement of "this feels right...", "I feel like god is saying...", "I felt the lord...", conditioned us to disregard our true "human" emotions in exchange for godly, "spiritual" ones.  There was a time at which I wouldn't even realize I was pissed at someone until 3 weeks after they did whatever they did.  That's how emotionally detached I was.  I still struggle sometimes and will occasionally take a quick break to assess my emotions before proceeding.  It's a lot better now; but I still sometimes feel like I use too many "quotation marks" in my posts.

 

Austin probably feels like he is being logical, because he has built one thought upon another; but, as I said in my first response to him, he really doesn't understand logic.  He feels like the lord has shown him all of this; and, for him, it feels like proof, true and proper.  But when we don't feel the same way, he switches from "logical" arguments to frothy emotional appeals: "god is real and so is hell!", "please consider my proof while there is still time!", "god is calling out to each one of you!"  It's an emotional roller-coaster for him.  Bless his heart.

I appreciate you sharing these things with me. Church and God are two different things. God designed you, gave you those feelings. God is Truth, the church is not Truth.

 

The logic example is proof of God, if it were not I would agree.

 

We give a warning to spare someone pain... That's all. God says to share The Message and I have.

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1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

Austin's argument is based on taking an emotional based claim (god exists) and present it as if it were a logical claim, when it clearly is not. It only has subjective, emotional based, and essential survival oriented leftover tendencies going for it. Austin presuppposes from an emotional perspective that a god must exist for anything else to exist. That's not logical at all. Nor is logical to think that you'll live forever if you find favor with the illogical god. That's just the human ego fearful of it's mortality and wanting to believe, while it's alive, that it can transcend the grave and live forever. It wants to survive, not die.....

 

The whole thing is emotional based and appeals to egoic consciousness. It runs contrary to stone cold, emotionless logic. 

 

But nevertheless, Austin cites the existence of "logic" as evidence for the existence of god. Failing to understand that logical thought is a 'new comer' and not absolute or eternally existent. And clearly in Austin's mind the emotional choice is much more appealing than the logical choice. So much so, that he's deluded himself into thinking that his emotional choice IS the logical choice, when we can clearly see and illustrate that it is not. 

 

 

Then refute the logic example...

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4 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

 

I don't think so.

My post was slightly off-topic, only to make a point to you which it appears you missed.

 

No matter, you continue to evade the simple question I asked:

What objective reason do we have to believe that there is any spirit being of any kind anywhere?

Human spirit, god, angel, demon, whatever.

 

What precisely is a spirit?

 

If you expect me to take seriously your admonition that there is a god, an omnipotent spirit being who created me (or you) as a physical temporal with an eternal spirit, then tell me what a spirit is.

 

The bible doesn't tell you what a spirit is, the bible only attaches various attributes to something called a spirit, which it purports to exist.

That being the case, from where do you get any actual definition of a spirit?

What is your definition of the word "spirit"?

 

 

 

 

 

 

This question is absolutley irrelevant if God does Exist, correct?

 

The logic exmple proves God does Exist.

 

Please focus while there's still time. Your family may go to Hell because of your influence.

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