I've Been Here Before

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I've been thinking lately that reincarnation seems meaningless without a continuous conscious awareness.  Even the Buddhist perspective of numerous lifespans across multiple planes of existence for the purpose of correcting karma and ultimately reaching nirvana seems like an interminable waste of effort if one can't remember one's mistakes from the previous life.  It would be fascinating for me, as a biological scientist, to experience the life cycle of a tapeworm or an anthrax bacterium; but without having the conscious awareness to report my findings to the scientific community once I reach the human plane again the experience seems all but pointless.  Just my thoughts. 

[midniterider]

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I've been thinking lately that reincarnation seems meaningless without a continuous conscious awareness.  Even the Buddhist perspective of numerous lifespans across multiple planes of existence for the purpose of correcting karma and ultimately reaching nirvana seems like an interminable waste of effort if one can't remember one's mistakes from the previous life.  It would be fascinating for me, as a biological scientist, to experience the life cycle of a tapeworm or an anthrax bacterium; but without having the conscious awareness to report my findings to the scientific community once I reach the human plane again the experience seems all but pointless.  Just my thoughts. 

 

If you can remember your past life then the memory wipe was not done properly at the way station ...oh shit, I've said too much!

[LogicalFallacy]

About as pointless and meaningless as eternal life in heaven. What's the point of going to heaven if the you and your experiences don't go with you, and if you have nothing which gives being alive meaning? The only reason that being alive and conscious has any meaning is because we know that once death occurs then as far as we can tell, that's it, our experience of this life is gone.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Some view the memories as intact once we "cross over", so we are from there but accumulating experiences here starting (mostly) fresh each time. My wife and I seem to have curious family connections going back hundreds of years. Under self-hypnosis she had a conversation with someone that claimed to be a relative from over a hundred years back in Scotland. She checked and her heritage does trace exactly to that place and time, as does mine apparently.

 

No idea if any of these views of being are true, or what the point is besides serving the ends of an other-worldly culture to which we don't realize we belong until we are back there. As to the why of it, perhaps it makes no more sense than the why of this life, and we make of it what we will. I've heard of young kids talking to each other about having chosen which family they wanted, and one twin being pissed that his brother "made him" incarnate into this family versus the neighbor's family. 

 

There is an interesting thing that happens to those on the drug DMT where they are greeted by beings they seem to have known for a long time, while the person reacts flabbergasted, and they say "Yeah, we know". Then again, I've had dreams where I'm someone else, in relationships with others in the dream that I seem to know well until I wake up. It is most likely that this is a product of our vast ability to think abstractly. But recalling such dreams leads us to consider other abstract meanings such as actually living other lives, either concurrently or in the past. We do tend to look for patterns and meanings, sometimes forcing meaning where none belongs. Then again, that is also how we discover things we previously missed. 

 

I suppose I lean towards the idea that we report back our findings here and then either come back or move on to another kind of being. Once when I purposefully inhaled enough pot to fall unconscious, when I was coming to I was recounting early life lessons about being bullied to "them". When I realized what I was doing, it felt like an opening closed and I was left pondering what I'd overheard myself doing. Not proof, just interesting. Other entheogens have served to change my attitude towards other people and animals (and bugs) into one of a shared life experience instead of seeing them as a waste of space and in my way. Now instead of smashing a bug by default, I tend to try to find a way to get them outside without harming them, even if they look freaky-different like the "house centipede". I suppose the world would be a much better place if we treated ourselves and others with default kindness and respect. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

5 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I've been thinking lately that reincarnation seems meaningless without a continuous conscious awareness.  Even the Buddhist perspective of numerous lifespans across multiple planes of existence for the purpose of correcting karma and ultimately reaching nirvana seems like an interminable waste of effort if one can't remember one's mistakes from the previous life.  It would be fascinating for me, as a biological scientist, to experience the life cycle of a tapeworm or an anthrax bacterium; but without having the conscious awareness to report my findings to the scientific community once I reach the human plane again the experience seems all but pointless.  Just my thoughts. 

 

Reincarnation is actually my ideal afterlife if there was one. Heaven soundes super boring. But that was a completely different culture that looked up to their leaders as heroes. 

 

But just to live life again from scratch. Ah hell that'd be awesome. It would be nice to have the memories from a former life. But then..... eh I dunno if life would be as great. Overcoming the obstacles is part of the challenge. 

 

Eh anyway. I think just the shear amount of people in the world today makes it completely improbable. Is there a soul factory somewhere in the ether? I doubt it. But it'd be nice if ya could live again. 

 

The memory thing doesn't even trip it up. Most people don't remember much at all before 4ish. Just being placed in an Infant brain would wipe all memories as it isnt developed enough to hold them. Almost sounds scientific when ya think about it that way. 

 

But if you could reincarnate into an animal or insect. Then that could be a thought. Because as the human species has grown we've destroyed a lot of animal life on this planet. So if all those animals spirits could come into human bodies. Heh.   Maybe. 

 

Any afterlife is improbable. But out of all of em I like reincarnation the best. I can definitely see how that would be appealing. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 hours ago, Fuego said:

Other entheogens have served to change my attitude towards other people and animals (and bugs) into one of a shared life experience instead of seeing them as a waste of space and in my way. Now instead of smashing a bug by default, I tend to try to find a way to get them outside without harming them, even if they look freaky-different like the "house centipede"

Since adopting a more Eastern/Buddhist philosophy of life, I have gained a new perspective and respect for the sanctity of all life.  Don't get me wrong, I've always respected life; and even when I was running the farm, I would employ the most humane means of treating the animals,as possible, even when it was necessary to put them down.  But now, I've come to see thst all of life really is interconnected within existence itself and I am simply another expression of existence, same as a wasp or a rabbit.  These days, when I find a spider in my house, unless it is a black widow or a brown recluse, I don't put it outside.  I just let it be.  It is where it is; and who am I to presume it belongs anywhere other than where it is?  After all, it isn't really my house, any more than this body is mine; I just happen to be living in it at the moment. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

9 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

If you can remember your past life then the memory wipe was not done properly at the way station ...oh shit, I've said too much!

Did the Six Nippled One (glorify her name) reveal this information to you?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 hours ago, Fuego said:

Some view the memories as intact once we "cross over", so we are from there but accumulating experiences here starting (mostly) fresh each time.

Perhaps.  But, again, if each passage is meant to allow us to correct our accumulated bad karma, then starting fresh each time doesn't really make sense.  If this incarnation of me is supposed to undo the karma my previous self caused through dishonesty, then it would be really helpful if I could remember that lying asshole.

 

Don't get me wrong, though; I don't really believe karma works that way.  I see it more like for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction.  Being rude to a waitress isn't going to reincarnate you as a broiler chicken; but there's a really good chance your food is going to get spit in.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Most people don't remember much at all before 4ish. Just being placed in an Infant brain would wipe all memories as it isnt developed enough to hold them. Almost sounds scientific when ya think about it that way. 

Are we sure that is actually the way it is, though?  I mean, Maybe the reason infant brains don't have any memories is just because nothing overly significant has happened to them yet.  Maybe their like brand new computer hard drives: the capacity is there; there just isn't any data.

[florduh]

Okay, y'all already think I'm crazy enough, but I'll share this anyway.

 

Many years ago I was visiting someone at the hospital and they had some displays in the lobby. It was of surgical equipment from the late 1800s. I couldn't tear myself away as I recognized one device, then another; it seemed so familiar as I named items before reading the descriptions. I knew how to use them. Perhaps I was once Jack the Ripper.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

11 minutes ago, florduh said:

Okay, y'all already think I'm crazy enough, but I'll share this anyway.

 

Many years ago I was visiting someone at the hospital and they had some displays in the lobby. It was of surgical equipment from the late 1800s. I couldn't tear myself away as I recognized one device, then another; it seemed so familiar as I named items before reading the descriptions. I knew how to use them. Perhaps I was once Jack the Ripper.

No, you just remember those items from your childhood.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Are we sure that is actually the way it is, though?  I mean, Maybe the reason infant brains don't have any memories is just because nothing overly significant has happened to them yet.  Maybe their like brand new computer hard drives: the capacity is there; there just isn't any data.

 

I dunno. Not a neurologist. But I would think that the brain would not be fully developed. I had some pretty significant shit happen. And I don't remember much of it at all. 

 

Just found this article.

 https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/why-cant-we-remember-our-early-childhood-62325

 

Could be a combination of several things that cause the lack of memories. Development being one of them. 

 

I like what @Fuego said:

12 hours ago, Fuego said:

No idea if any of these views of being are true, or what the point is besides serving the ends of an other-worldly culture to which we don't realize we belong until we are back there

 

That'd be a pretty cool scenario. 

 

Many people have experiences like @florduh with the hospital tools. He could have just been recalling information stored in his subconscious from earlier in life that he forgot he had learned. But wouldn't it be interesting to find out after your consciousness reached the otherworldly country club that you were a doctor in the 1800s? And that's why you remembered those tools? 

 

Sounds like a much more interesting afterlife than heaven. You can really tell that the authors that dreamt up the description of heaven were probably pitching this idea to an impoverished people, who would love nothing more than to have the riches described. Golden streets, pearly gates, mansions. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I suffered a concussion when I was 17 and started experiencing deja vous at a higher than normal rate.  But it eventually tapered off after several years.  Most of my other "paranormal" experiences, like florduh's surgical instruments, I attribute to a higher attention to and perception of detail, which is a by-product of being introverted.  But maybe I've just too long been reliant solely on science and reason, closed off to the need or desire of anything deeper or more "spiritual", for lack of better terminology. 

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I suffered a concussion when I was 17 and started experiencing deja vous at a higher than normal rate.  But it eventually tapered off after several years.  Most of my other "paranormal" experiences, like florduh's surgical instruments, I attribute to a higher attention to and perception of detail, which is a by-product of being introverted.  But maybe I've just too long been reliant solely on science and reason, closed off to the need or desire of anything deeper or more "spiritual", for lack of better terminology. 

 

I was raised by two people who thought ghosts and such were complete bullshit, hence I've never seen a ghost. Does this mean ghosts dont exist? Perhaps. Or maybe I just automatically ignore such experiences or am closed off to that as you say. A friend though, recently visited relatives and said she saw some old guy in the hall. The other people in the house said, "Oh that's just Grandpa so and so" who was dead. It wasnt a wisp , or fuzzy apparition, according to her, it was a full-on visual presence. And she isn't really one to makes claims like that. Not really a big deal to the other members of the household either. 

 

Could be real, could be nonsense. Interesting to me, though. 

[Margee]

7 hours ago, florduh said:

Okay, y'all already think I'm crazy enough, but I'll share this anyway.

Perhaps I was once Jack the Ripper.

 

I think I was one of the woman you murdered you ole' bastard!!  That's why I'm afraid of knives today!! 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

8 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

A friend though, recently visited relatives and said she saw some old guy in the hall. The other people in the house said, "Oh that's just Grandpa so and so" who was dead. It wasnt a wisp , or fuzzy apparition, according to her, it was a full-on visual presence. And she isn't really one to makes claims like that. Not really a big deal to the other members of the household either. 

 

Two of my wife's sisters, and other members of her family have had similar experiences, and they (her family) seem fairly normal.  At least most of the time.

 

At least with reincarnation you get more than one chance! 

[Joshpantera]

The reincarnation thing is a byproduct of the mythology. Brahman is envisioned as a transcendent energy consciousness and actually omnipresent in all things. Everything is the Brahman consciousness. Including matter.

 

Consciousness runs up scale from the sub-atomic realm, through molecules, through living cells, and through the whole of living organisms. So it's not hard to see why the idea of reincarnation exists. Whatever you are now, is Brahman. But Brahman is everything else, too. Brahman always blips aspects of itself in and out of existence as anything appears to come in and out of existence in the universe.

 

That all-present consciousness was many things before it was you, and will become many more things after you as well according to the general overview of the mythos. 

 

Then the RELIGIOUS aspect of the mythology kicks in! 

 

People start taking it more and more literally. Just like with christianity. It's part of a metaphorical, mythological dialogue gone too literal. That's when all of the logical problems begin to show themselves. Hole's in logic. Inconsistencies. Things that don't quite line up. People are being too religious about it at that point.

 

Yes, what would be the purpose of reincarnating between lives to transcend this realm if you have no clear cut memories of each and every life? It's not very logical. But even more to the point, if you're simply Brahman (the transcendent energy consciousness itself) incarnate as a human or anything else, who is it that is benefiting from the experiences of that experiencing organism? 

 

Brahman is everything anyways, all the time, always having every experience that exists any and everywhere. Brahman already knows everything, so there's no sense of needing to 'learn' anything through the medium of insects or people. Been there, done that, eternally. One might argue, but it's about individual souls and gaining enlightenment. The question still remains, what is an individual soul against the concept of an eternal, transcendent energy consciousness which must be any and every individual soul and we're back to square one again? Lot's of problems to contend with from a logical perspective. 

 

When Bill Moyers asked Joseph Campbell in the Power of Myth interviews, "Is reincarnation a metaphor?" And Campbell shot back, "Of course reincarnation is a metaphor!" - the overall point being made was that all religion, christianity included, are misinterpreted metaphors. Metaphors for the actual mystery of life, death, and existence. It's actually a mystery at the bottom of it all. And his argument was that religions are supposed to orient you towards the underlying mystery aspect of your own existence, not pretend to have literally solved it for you as an adherent of their particular religious fold. When the experience of your own core mystery is where the myths are supposed to lead. The spiritual experience ends in a somewhere agnostic conclusion or realization. But rightfully so. 

 

Doesn't matter if we literally reincarnate or not. Consciousness is doing it all the time regardless. What we consider ourselves is largely illusory and short sided, anyways. We aren't just this particular ego. We're intimately interconnected to the whole. The true "I" would have to the whole, what else? And in that sense a person can identify with something that springs up and recedes again, or the deeper reality which is simply identity with existence itself - that which has always been and will always be. It's a matter of changing focus and perspective. That ultimate mystery is tied to each of our individual lives. And the eastern mysticism wants you to realize that you are that ultimate reality itself, incarnate. You are the very thing that the myths point back to with all of metaphors and mystery school content. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

10 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

The reincarnation thing is a byproduct of the mythology. Brahman is envisioned as a transcendent energy consciousness and actually omnipresent in all things. Everything is the Brahman consciousness. Including matter. Consciousness runs up scale from the sub-atomic realm, through molecules, through living cells, and through the whole of living organisms. So it's not hard to see why the idea of reincarnation exists. Whatever you are now, is Brahman. But Brahman is everything else, too. Brahman always blips aspects of itself in and out of existence as anything appears to come in and out of existence in the universe. That consciousness was many things before it was you, and will become many more things after you as well according the general overview of the mythos. 

 

Then the RELIGIOUS aspect of the mythology kicks in. 

 

People start taking it more and more literally. Just like with christianity. It's part of a metaphorical, mythological dialogue gone too literal. That's when all of the logical problems began to show themselves. Hole's in logic. Inconsistencies. People are being too religious about it at that point. Yes, what would be the purpose of reincarnating between lives to transcend this realm if you have no clear cut memories of each and every life? It's not very logical. But even more to the point, if you're simply Brahman, the transcendent energy consciousness itself, incarnate as a human or anything else, who is it that is benefiting from the experiences? 

 

Brahman is everything anyways, all the time, always having every experience that exists any and everywhere. Brahman already knows everything, so there's no sense of needing to learn anything through the medium of insects or people. Been there, done that, eternally. One might argue, but it's about individual souls. The question still remains, what is an individual soul against the concept of an eternal, transcendent energy consciousness which must be any and every individual soul and we're back to square one again? 

 

When Bill Moyers asked Joseph Campbell in the Power of Myth interviews, "Is reincarnation a metaphor?" And Campbell shot back, "Of course reincarnation is a metaphor!" The overall point being made was that all religion, christianity included, are misinterpreted metaphors. Metaphors for the actual mystery of life, death, and existence. It's actually a mystery at the bottom of it all. And his argument was that religions are supposed to orient you towards the underlying mystery aspect of your own existence, not pretend to have literally solved it for you as an adherent of their particular religious fold.....

 

What if all religions are just doing their best to explain experiences like past life memories. Seeing a spirit, knowing what an item is without ever seeing it. 

 

What if reincarnation is nothing like what you described with Brahman. That was all thought up by humans just like heaven, hades, the river Styx, grim reaper, blah blah blah. 

 

I guess for me when I decided not to believe any religion as they are all flawed in the same way. Invented by us. It opened up the doors for me to ponder the possibility of anything. And why each religion chose their beliefs. What made them think of things like reincarnation. Knowing that probably none of it is real. But just the same. If there is something. No one really knows what it is. As humans we just guess. Make it up as we see it. Then try to force it on other people. Or atleast convince other people we have found the answers. Kinda like our recent Christian visitors. Seems about the way it goes. 

[Joshpantera]

On 11/15/2021 at 6:22 PM, DarkBishop said:

What if all religions are just doing their best to explain experiences like past life memories. Seeing a spirit, knowing what an item is without ever seeing it. 

 

What if reincarnation is nothing like what you described with Brahman. That was all thought up by humans just like heaven, hades, the river Styx, grim reaper, blah blah blah. 

 

The smart money is on all of the myths are human constructs, because it's demonstrable. They start with conscious human beings and then work backwards to a Brahman concept. Like the jews and christians do with a special creator. It goes backwards from the point of human conception towards the mystery of origins. I don't think that any myth in the world can be literally true. 

 

On 11/15/2021 at 6:22 PM, DarkBishop said:

I guess for me when I decided not to believe any religion as they are all flawed in the same way. Invented by us. It opened up the doors for me to ponder the possibility of anything. And why each religion chose their beliefs. What made them think of things like reincarnation. Knowing that probably none of it is real. But just the same. If there is something. No one really knows what it is. As humans we just guess. Make it up as we see it. Then try to force it on other people. Or atleast convince other people we have found the answers. Kinda like our recent Christian visitors. Seems about the way it goes. 

 

The above sounds very self evident to me. People make it up as they see it and as they go along. And try and force it on others. The evidence reveals this as true. We should always be suspect of anyone, from religion or anything else, who claims to have all the answers. It's an impossible claim. They're setting themselves up for certain failure. 

 

But I don't see it as far fetched that someday people could know a hell of a lot more about how existence works, and possibly why, than we currently can comprehend. But religion most likely couldn't get us there. Science and consciousness studies, in my view, have the potential to get humanity there eventually. Given enough time and evolution. 

[Myrkhoos]

Reincarnation is a vast subject. What, who, how, when, why are answered differently in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, some shamanic/indigenous faiths, etc. Even some strands of Orthodox Judaism.

    I would say that transmission of information is a hot topic. What information is and how it is transmitted. I wouldn't eliminate the posibility that the amalgam of methods , concepts, and results we call "science" is too limited today to give us answers.

    About remembering past lives. Well that is considered a spiritual gift in some strands of Buddhism. As in the spiritual practice can have that result. So it isn't like well, no way to find out, at least in that spiritual system.

[Joshpantera]

On 11/17/2021 at 3:18 PM, Joshpantera said:

But I don't see it as far fetched that someday people could know a hell of a lot more about how existence works, and possibly why, than we currently can comprehend. But religion most likely couldn't get us there. Science and consciousness studies, in my view, have the potential to get humanity there eventually. Given enough time and evolution. 

 

This is very interesting. As I've been going through Tom Campbell's TOE which is based on the emerging models of primary consciousness, I ran into this much more in depth interview, which is science oriented, but ultimately hits on this very topic about a way in which Vedic ideas like reincarnation can be viewed through a virtual reality system metaphor. This is an issue that comes through the middle of the interview. 

 

In fact, the tail end of this interview hits on something very interesting about the origins of mythology with implications towards a possible perception of evolution and the way in which collective consciousness seemed to work back in the bronze age when these myths were being created. In contrast to how much humanity has evolved and grown in empathy since that time. Which is a topic we've discussed a lot around here. Clearly there can be noted an increase in human empathy through time. Tom explains why that would be so according to his model: 

 

 

@DarkBishop @midniterider @TheRedneckProfessor

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I'll have to watch it when I get a chance.  Thanks, @Joshpantera.  

[midniterider]

Will check it out.  

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Thanks Josh!  I watched it and it was very interesting.  if I interprted it right,  some of my thinking regarding "love" being a logical way to improve society, and that consciousness is the "source", isn't crazy thinking.  Also interesting was about consciousness taking on different avatars. 

 

But I'm still having trouble wraping my brain around physics and quantum mechanics.  I just barely passed algebra in college.  

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 2/25/2022 at 1:04 AM, Weezer said:

 

 and that consciousness is the "source", isn't crazy thinking. 

 

But then comes the question, where does consciousness come from?