I've Been Here Before

[pantheory]

On 11/13/2021 at 3:19 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I've been thinking lately that reincarnation seems meaningless without a continuous conscious awareness.  Even the Buddhist perspective of numerous lifespans across multiple planes of existence for the purpose of correcting karma and ultimately reaching nirvana seems like an interminable waste of effort if one can't remember one's mistakes from the previous life.  It would be fascinating for me, as a biological scientist, to experience the life cycle of a tapeworm or an anthrax bacterium; but without having the conscious awareness to report my findings to the scientific community once I reach the human plane again the experience seems all but pointless.  Just my thoughts. 

 

Face it, we're all simply animals, and of course there's no ultimate purpose to anything -- ashes to ashes, dust to dust.   It's great for my understanding of reality since I love animals as well as most humans. Something like Will Rogers when he said: "I never met a man I didn't like," even in jail  

[pantheory]

On 11/13/2021 at 7:26 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

About as pointless and meaningless as eternal life in heaven. What's the point of going to heaven if the you and your experiences don't go with you, and if you have nothing which gives being alive meaning? The only reason that being alive and conscious has any meaning is because we know that once death occurs then as far as we can tell, that's it, our experience of this life is gone.

 

Something like the very nice behaving, proper young married woman (early 30's, maybe 10 years older than me at the time ) who I believe was not coming on to me when she asked if I thought there would be sex in heaven. I said that according to the Bible, sex in heaven in not discussed, but that I expect there wouldn't be any according to my understanding of its content, and I didn't tell her I was an atheist. She said: "if there's no sex in heaven I don't think I want to go there."

[freshstart]

6 hours ago, pantheory said:

Face it, we're all simply animals, and of course there's no ultimate purpose to anything -- ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

I don't know that I can come to this conclusion. I think its fair to assume that the human race will continue to evolve. Its also fair to assume that we as humans seem prettybhard wired to find "purpose" in life. As we evolve, perhaps this purpose will be discovered.

The world as we experience it exists through human interpretation. In other words, sound (such as music) is only known as music because musical sound waves bounce off human ear drums. Without ear drums, music would just be sound waves. Same is true for light. We interpret the energy known as light into a visual experience only because of our eyes, our optic nerve and our brains. Without those things, light would just be another form of energy. So in some ways it seems both humans and their environment were "designed" (for lack of a better word) in a way that allows humans to experience/interpret the world in an incredible way. And that makes me think that it would not be out of the realm of possibility that humans do have some purpose.

[pantheory]

13 hours ago, freshstart said:

I don't know that I can come to this conclusion. I think its fair to assume that the human race will continue to evolve. Its also fair to assume that we as humans seem prettybhard wired to find "purpose" in life. As we evolve, perhaps this purpose will be discovered.

The world as we experience it exists through human interpretation. In other words, sound (such as music) is only known as music because musical sound waves bounce off human ear drums. Without ear drums, music would just be sound waves. Same is true for light. We interpret the energy known as light into a visual experience only because of our eyes, our optic nerve and our brains. Without those things, light would just be another form of energy. So in some ways it seems both humans and their environment were "designed" (for lack of a better word) in a way that allows humans to experience/interpret the world in an incredible way. And that makes me think that it would not be out of the realm of possibility that humans do have some purpose.

 

Yes, we will evolve but I expect at a very slow rate since now we have better control over of our environment, food supply, and procreation. And something that few have considered, that there is no direction to evolution, no forward or backward. For instance, If mostly those humans of lesser intelligence procreate, then the average intelligence of humans could be going down.

 

Yes, most cultures have hardwired humans to find a purpose for life of some kind. For me it's simply to do the best that I can to be happy, contribute to others, to humanity hopefully for a happy and better future, and to help out our little buddies, the other animals and plants of this world. But as an atheist I believe there is no ultimate purpose to any of it.

 

Yes, the world we experience is entirely through our own interpretation of it. It's not by design that reality fits together via our environment as you suggest, the reason is that if it didn't fit, it would no longer be here for our continued observation. Because of natural selection, life on Earth must fit very well together with its environment. That which does not, will perish. 

 

your quote:

 

"And that makes me think that it would not be out of the realm of possibility that humans do have some purpose."

 

Of course we have a purpose of our own making. An ultimate purpose for reality, like Gods, there is no scientific evidence for any as I'm sure you know, but false beliefs and hopes can also be positive tools in one's arsenal, not just negatives IMO. 

 

 

 

[webmdave]

On 11/13/2021 at 6:19 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I've been thinking lately that reincarnation seems meaningless without a continuous conscious awareness.  Even the Buddhist perspective of numerous lifespans across multiple planes of existence for the purpose of correcting karma and ultimately reaching nirvana seems like an interminable waste of effort if one can't remember one's mistakes from the previous life.  It would be fascinating for me, as a biological scientist, to experience the life cycle of a tapeworm or an anthrax bacterium; but without having the conscious awareness to report my findings to the scientific community once I reach the human plane again the experience seems all but pointless.  Just my thoughts. 

 

I subscribe to the position that death is the end of existence and that the stories of an afterlife are ridiculous superstitions.

 

Quote

"Death is the privation of all sentience;... Death, therefore [...] is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not." -- Epicurus in his Letter to Menoeceus.

 

From this ancient idea we have the epitaph: Non fui, fui, non-sum, non-curo ("I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care"), which can be seen on many ancient gravestones of the Roman Empire and is often used today at humanist funerals.

 

Quote

'I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it." -- attributed to Mark Twain

 

Just because life is temporary doesn't take away from its value or its beauty. 

 

Then, when we die, our bodies are broken down into their constituent parts and recycled into the ecosystem. Our atoms go on long after we are gone.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

[Joshpantera]

On 2/25/2022 at 2:04 AM, Weezer said:

Thanks Josh!  I watched it and it was very interesting.  if I interprted it right, some of my thinking regarding "love" being a logical way to improve society, and that consciousness is the "source", isn't crazy thinking.  Also interesting was about consciousness taking on different avatars. 

 

This guy is so freaking out there with his claims of firsthand experiences. I keep looking at more of it because it's so wild. I found this interview on his avatar conceptualization: Tom Campbell: How Consciousness Connects to the Avatar - YouTube

 

You seem to have interpreted Tom correctly, Weezer. And it wasn't lost on me. I noticed the connection right away. He's taken what you've been talking about into some dramatically wild directions. All the way down to the fundamental level of the nature of reality. Which, he argues, is an information based virtual reality type of system. At the minimum, very minimum, this type of stuff is basically the modern mythos unveiling itself. It's metaphor, allegory, and symbolism focused on the leading edge of our 21st century technological conceptualizations and comprehension. Do you notice that too? 

 

Around 30:00 Tom gets into the issue of relating his ideas to past lives and such. On topic with this discussion. And again, it's wild!

 

He's claiming that it's necessary to lose it all (past memories) at the intellectual level according to this discourse. And that what's retained from the positives in life are down at the more fundamental "being" level. I'm trying to figure this guy out. I don't know if he's taken Buddhist and Hindu ideas and then ran with them to come up with his theories. It sounds like it. But he claims to have been just a materialist science going into it. Then his personal experiences ranging from OBE experiments, and such, brought him to these understandings. 

 

One big red assed spanking christians will take in a discourse like this, is that it outlines how "beliefs" get in the way of growth and expansion. That's detrimental to christians trying to latch on to these new age-like ideas emerging now. This discourse is about growing BEYOND beliefs that essentially hold you back and stop personal growth and advancement. This goes back to what I saying to Robert in two other threads. The picean age theme is, "to believe." The aquarian age theme is, "to know." The new age, literally, constitutes a change in mythological theme. It's not about believing anymore, it's about knowledge and knowing. And that deserves a completely new mythos in response. A modern one. Through a modern lens. 

 

Because I can guarantee some christians will look at Tom Campbell and want to go immediately to work trying to usurp it for christianity and make connections that they think prove their "beliefs." Because of a short sided look at this discourse and seeing that loosely speaking love your neighbor is a christian thing. If they start showing up here we can direct them back to this type of discourse.

 

They are drawn to latch onto and essentially try and usurp this kind of stuff because it's the next wave of mythos, basically. And christianity was designed from the outset to run through the world trying to take over and claim other peoples mythos for christianity. That captures the Pauline epistles sense of, "I have become all things to all men." It's still active in that way. Like a viral entity existing within the genre of mythology and religion. It mutates. And I've concerned myself over the years with building up immunity to the strains as they mutate and evolve, trying to adapt to new conditions as they go along.

 

I have gained 'natural immunity' to viral christianity through the acquisition of knowledge and experience. 

 

So, back to your discourse on love as a logical way to improve society. I agree. It's logical. But I see a situation where christians serve as a set back to the type of logic that you're seeing. They love themselves and those who "believe" similar. The outsiders and perceived "others" receive scorn. Because it's bronze age egoic thinking. Its empathy reserved for the few within the selected tribe. There's no sense of loving everyone at the end of Revelation, of course. It's about wiping out competitive thinking and "beliefs" with fire imagery and establishing a new world order, basically, consisting of an echo chamber of the special few selected for eternal existence. It's bronze age empathy, not 21st century empathy. A small glimpse of loving your neighbor with no real follow through. 

 

That's something glaring that shouldn't ever be forgotten or glossed over in my view. 

 

If love and kindness is the way of the future and the salvation of humanity, rest assured, it will have to come at the expense of kicking off these bronze age religions at some point in order to ever hope of getting there! Which shouldn't be very hard. Because they're waning tremendously. I'm thinking that Alan Watts was right about Wu Wei. The natural flow is taking care of it. Our discourse is part of that natural flow, flowing through us. And the result is that near the end of current world age, religious views attaching themselves to that world age, are naturally dying. 

 

 

Maybe that will come in the form of new mythos emerging? I've been trying to get that point across to Robert for decades. The old has to be allowed to fall off and die. And from the ashes the new can emerge. I don't see how it could be any other way. The old is tainted in demonstrable ways. And it's more of a set back to society than an advancement under close analytical scrutiny.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

On 3/5/2022 at 11:01 PM, freshstart said:

So in some ways it seems both humans and their environment were "designed" (for lack of a better word) in a way that allows humans to experience/interpret the world in an incredible way. And that makes me think that it would not be out of the realm of possibility that humans do have some purpose.

 

According to these wild rabbit holes of idealist philosophy I've traveled down recently, you are correct. Especially the information based virtual reality system rabbit hole. It's a stage set up to where the nature of reality at the core level is an abstract, wave oriented, subjective field of awareness. Out of which the appearance of particle matter emerges. And experience begins with the one subjective field splitting off into two - this and that, 0 and 1. Duality = experience. 

 

The purpose, as this goes, IS experience. 

 

Right or wrong? 

 

Who knows. But this is what's being presented as an answer. 

[Joshpantera]

On 3/6/2022 at 3:45 PM, webmdave said:

From this ancient idea we have the epitaph: Non fui, fui, non-sum, non-curo ("I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care"), which can be seen on many ancient gravestones of the Roman Empire and is often used today at humanist funerals.

 

This crazy theory actually conforms to the above as well. Speaking directly to the above points after the 40:00 mark: 

 

Tom Campbell: How Consciousness Connects to the Avatar - YouTube

 

As far as little "c" consciousness is concerned, "I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care" 

 

Especially the "I do not care" aspect at the end of it. When little "c" is gone, it's gone. That's another point of argument that can be raised as christians try and claim theories like this as their own. No resurrection of the dead little "c." No eternal life for the little "c." What's gone is gone. These virtual reality system metaphors have a sword piercing approach towards a lot of the christian spiritual ideas. 

 

Every bit as much as the materialistic approach. Maybe more, it would seem. Because it can expand out into a deeper perspective than strictly materialist thinking. And yet, the main points of the materialist position hold true regardless. 

 

[TABA]

6 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

There's no sense of loving everyone at the end of Revelation, of course. It's about wiping out competitive thinking and "beliefs"

 

 

6 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

If love and kindness is the way of the future and the salvation of humanity, rest assured, it will have to come at the expense of kicking off these bronze age religions at some point in order to ever hope of getting there!

 

6 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

Maybe that will come in the form of new mythos emerging? I've been trying to get that point across to Robert for decades. The old has to be allowed to fall off and die.

Although some of the concepts Josh and Robert have been debating for many years are well over my head, as an Average Joe ex-christian I strongly agree with the points I’ve quoted above.  I just think there is too much bad stuff and other baggage for Christianity in any form to be part of an appealing path forward.  Something quite different and less tainted would be needed. It’s hard to see how that might emerge.  I think the future religious / philosophical landscape is going to be much more splintered than it has been for many centuries.  There will still be die-hard Christians and other theists.  There will be more non-theistic and non-religious people.  And I see a variety of  pagan movements providing the ‘woo’, the ritual element and the fellowship that many people - including committed atheists - desire.  
 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 3/5/2022 at 10:01 PM, freshstart said:

 

So in some ways it seems both humans and their environment were "designed" (for lack of a better word) in a way that allows humans to experience/interpret the world in an incredible way. And that makes me think that it would not be out of the realm of possibility that humans do have some purpose.

 

Whether we were designed for it, or it just happened, I think you made an excelent observation.  I wrestled with purpose but finally came to the conclusion we do have purpose.  And like TABA said, much of the debate has been over my head.  Science/physics/math/cosmology, etc are not my cup of tea.  My orientation has been in trying to understand human beings and their social behavior through the ages, and as a professional, how to promote human well-being.  Nature has also held my interest since a young child.   It came to me several years ago that when you look at the big picture of "nature" (including humans), and look at what every living thing strives to do, it is to reproduce itself and grow.  And there are conditions under which everything grows best.  I came to the conclusion that our purpose in life is to promote life.  

 

And growing up christian, the words attributed to Jesus, "...I am come that they may have life, and have it more abundently", kept echoing in my mind.  And also that "love" for self and neighbor Is in the interest of the universe.  It looks at what is in the best interest of "WE".  If you value life, you do what you can to promote it.  Not tear it down, or thwart it's growth, which the doctrine of original sin does.   Love/respect is a step up in moral evolution from "original sin" and "eye for eye" thinking.  HA! the eye for eye thnking is the one I have trouble leaving behind!

 

The love message from "Jesus" stuck with me throught the years, and then in my professional studies of human development it occured to me that the concepts were evidence based.  I agree that the "baggage" of christianity (especially that tacked on by the Catholic church) shoud be left behind, and sell a new mode of thinking based on it's evidence.  

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

On 11/13/2021 at 7:55 PM, Fuego said:

Then again, I've had dreams where I'm someone else, in relationships with others in the dream that I seem to know well until I wake up.

I had a dream like that too. My consciousness was injected into someone else, literally. I had friends who knew me and thought I was acting very strangely. I had a job to go to that I didn't know where to go or what to do. I was in danger of being fired for being late 'again' (not my nature at all!). A glass of water at dinner was not for drinking but for dipping the fingers in! So very many odd things but so vivid and terrifying! 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

14 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

I had a dream like that too. My consciousness was injected into someone else, literally. I had friends who knew me and thought I was acting very strangely. I had a job to go to that I didn't know where to go or what to do. I was in danger of being fired for being late 'again' (not my nature at all!). A glass of water at dinner was not for drinking but for dipping the fingers in! So very many odd things but so vivid and terrifying! 

Dreams are often very symbolic.  Is there anything about the dream that could be indicating something other than the original content of the dream?     

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

3 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Dreams are often very symbolic.  Is there anything about the dream that could be indicating something other than the original content of the dream?     

You're going to love this one Weezer. I was seeing a psychologist at the time! And it was over problems with my 2nd husband. She was so alarmed she almost begged me to leave him, something I understand is a no no with such things! But I think she was afraid I was disassociating. 

I've also had recurring dreams about very large old houses with tons of rooms, sometimes completely empty and sometimes filled with old pictures, furniture and other old items. I sort of understand the symbolism as being my inner being. That's easy. 

But the dream about transferring my consciousness into another body was a whole different animal. I don't remember looking into a mirror to see if the body I was in looked like me, so I couldn't tell. Everyone else knew me VERY well, even about doing drugs with them. They offered something I 'usually love' and I declined. It was then they started getting really suspicious of me! 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Is it possible your dream is an indication of something you want to, or need to change?  In a sense become a different person?  I have come to believe our dreams can in a sense be protectors of our wellbeing.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

18 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Is it possible your dream is an indication of something you want to, or need to change?  In a sense become a different person?  I have come to believe our dreams can in a sense be protectors of our wellbeing.

This is a dream I had before I actually DID leave hubby #2, from the mid-nineties. My counselor advised me to go back to school to further my career in laboratory medicine. Still haven't been able to do that. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

4 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

This is a dream I had before I actually DID leave hubby #2, from the mid-nineties. My counselor advised me to go back to school to further my career in laboratory medicine. Still haven't been able to do that. 

Is continuing education something you would like to do?  Not necessarily in the medical field?  And not necessarily formal education?  Where do your interests lie?

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

 

 

10 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Is continuing education something you would like to do?  Not necessarily in the medical field?  And not necessarily formal education?  Where do your interests lie?

At the time I got my first entry level job in a hospital laboratory I had just found out the local university that I'd planned to transfer to after my two years of community college had discontinued its medical technology program, the one I wanted. It was a big letdown so I just got a job rather than changing my major. 

Unfortunately, entry level stagnates (along with the wages) in this area. Later when I moved to another city the hospital was large enough to accommodate continuing education to a midlevel position but I couldn't afford to do it then. 

I later took an Entrepreneur and Small Business management certificate class at community college hoping I'd be able to start a mobile phlebotomy business but that didn't pan out either. 

I also greatly enjoy creative writing and this site gives me that opportunity. I love ideas and philosophy (also present here) and a chance to just help make a difference to people who suffer from the tortures of xtianity. 

I have many interests and a whole lot of them lie right here! 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

Oh, and I'm heavily interested in integrating my whole self. The Inner Child has arisen with a vengeance since coming here! 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

7 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

Oh, and I'm heavily interested in integrating my whole self. The Inner Child has arisen with a vengeance since coming here! 

Are you familar with the parent, adult, child model?  If not, Google it.  I'll likley be busy tomorrow, but can continue this tomorrow evening.  and we probably should go to PM for that.  Good night!

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

Just now, Weezer said:

Are you familar with the parent, adult, child model?  If not, Google it.  I'll likley be busy tomorrow, but can continue this tomorrow evening.  and we probably should go to PM for that.  Good night!

Thanks Weezer. Sleep well! 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 hours ago, Weezer said:

Is it possible your dream is an indication of something you want to, or need to change?  In a sense become a different person?  I have come to believe our dreams can in a sense be protectors of our wellbeing.

Cool.  Now do the leaving the house without pants dream. 

[TABA]

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Cool.  Now do the leaving the house without pants dream. 

Or … college finals start Monday and I only went to one class…

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

51 minutes ago, TABA said:

Or … college finals start Monday and I only went to one class…

[♦ Fuego ♦]

10 hours ago, moxieflux66 said:

I've also had recurring dreams about very large old houses with tons of rooms, sometimes completely empty and sometimes filled with old pictures, furniture and other old items.

 

The level of detail I see in dreams fascinates me! I had one where I was in an older home and there had been some odd activity from the clown from "IT", so I was investigating things like the lock not quite latching, looking behind a flimsy curtain and seeing a few shelves of old toys from the 1940s-50s era. The old dusty toys (like a top and a deck of cards) had his painted image on them repeating. I woke up from the dream genuinely impressed at my subconscious creating that level of detail. It wasn't even scary, though it may have been intended that way. I've been craving for that creative part of me to influence how I sing and do other things in life. 

 

I've also had the old house or theater dreams where there are endless rooms and hallways, usually influenced by my childhood home but greatly enhanced. 

 

Years ago, that part of my being also gave me a dream that helped me process my deconversion (long):

 

I dreamed that I was in the kitchen of my childhood old house, moonlight coming through the window. I was with my brother chatting about stuff.

 

I looked out the window and saw the night sky and a bright full moon, but like a detailed artist's rendition with many moons like line drawings. I said "Am I dreaming? How can I be dreaming, this seems so real." Yet, the image of many moons didn't fade, but grew more detailed. I had to investigate! I went to the back porch to go outside, but the back porch area was dark, and the light wouldn't turn on. This has always been a clue in my dreams that I was about to confront "evil". I noticed that the image of the sky changed when I looked out the back porch window versus through the back porch door screen. It changed from a regular image in the window to fog when I looked back and forth through the glass to through the screen door. I realized that it was all an illusion specifically to lure me onto the back porch. 

 

A little boy was there laughing in the semi-dark. He was "the devil" and I caught him as he ran by and tossed him to the ground and put my foot on his chest. I could feel the standard "evil power" starting to immobilize my muscles and voice as I tried to squeek out the name of Jesus, but then realized what I was doing. I am an ex-Christian. I said clearly out-loud, "I don't need Jesus to do this. I need to do this." I had my foot on his little chest. He giggled joyfully, got up and ran out the back door while "saying" to me "careful, you're about to sin". I replied, "There is no sin." He kept laughing and running around in the moonlight as I watched. 

 

I asked him, "You're me, aren't you?" (not so much a statement as a question) Part of me spoke this question to him carefully, still confronting the old fear of asking questions of demons. Parts of the dream are fading now. He stopped and looked at me, and laughed while standing next to a winter-time rose bush, no flowers but full of thorns. He smiled and embraced it. There was no pain. He then ran by me and I caught him again and purposefully swung him into the thorns. He yelled "Ow!"  I said, "It hurts if I do it, but not if you do it." I realized then I didn't need to hurt him/me. He wasn't an enemy. I am him, we are one. My intent created the pain. He is also able to do things that I cannot consciously.

(Note: I think I might be the rose bush. He is calling me out, being active and playful, waiting on me to see reality, waiting for me to blossom, embracing me and my thorns in the meantime.)

 

Somewhere after this I awoke. 

 

Last night I had been thinking about how I used to be able to feel a change in spiritual power when I crossed a state line. I realized last night that I felt it because I expected to feel it. I had been taught about demons and angels setting up boundaries, and aligning themselves with areas. I realized this was a childish imaginary thought, but I had made it "real" by believing it. In my dream, I had revisited my childhood fears. I didn't need a savior this time. I am both the devil and god and neither, there is just one. The world that seemed so real then is illusion. This makes me laugh.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

48 minutes ago, Fuego said:

The level of detail I see in dreams fascinates me! I had one where I was in an older home and there had been some odd activity from the clown from "IT", so I was investigating things like the lock not quite latching, looking behind a flimsy curtain and seeing a few shelves of old toys from the 1940s-50s era. The old dusty toys (like a top and a deck of cards) had his painted image on them repeating. I woke up from the dream genuinely impressed at my subconscious creating that level of detail. It wasn't even scary, though it may have been intended that way. I've been craving for that creative part of me to influence how I sing and do other things in life. 

 

Oh that is so cool! I've had plenty of recurring dreams about large houses. It's always impressed me as a dream of inner exploration. I have been craving the same thing!