It's complicated

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Warning this is a very personal post. If anyone is a professional counselor I would love to have a one on one conversation about all this. Maybe someone here can help me get my mind around it. 

 

It's complicated...... thats just the best way I can phrase my relationship with Ex Ms. Bishop. Anyone that has kept up with my posts probably knows that deconversion took a heavy toll on our marriage. Last year and early this year it all came to a head and we got a divorce. 

    I guess the best way to describe the past year is that it has been a living emotional hell at times. I went through all the stages of grief mourning our marriage. Even tho we still had sex from time to time. It was mainly just to satisfy mutual needs. There was a line drawn at kissing. I didn't kiss my wife for over a year. Apparently it was more intimate...... I guess...... I'll be honest......... the concept of having intercourse but kissing being a step to far confounds me. Maybe it's because I'm a guy.

      As time progressed she was more uneasy with that type of relationship. To the point that I started feeling like a creep. I knew it was time to move on............. or so I thought.

     Two months after the divorce we had stopped being together in that way and I had reached a point that I was ready to try dating someone else. Now keep in mind that Ex Ms. Bishop was still living with me. We had separated the house up and were working on having two separate living areas until she could find her own place. As a courtesy we agreed to give the other a heads up if we decided to date someone else. So.... I told her. She was a little weird about it at first. Later she was out right mad. And even later she broke down crying and said she was still wanting to try and work things out with each other. And that she still had hope for us. (Completely unbeknownst to me)

     This was 5 months ago. I'm honestly a little fucked up about it still. Maybe if I hadn't got to the point that I was ready to date someone else it wouldn't have been as bad. But I did get to that point. I had let her go and killed a little of my heart in the process. I did call off the date however because well....... This was my wife for 12 years and we have a child together. I didn't even want to divorce. But its like I have some type of PTSD over it. I'm constantly afraid that if I open up again and love her like I did before, that she is going to leave me again in 4 years or so. What if all of our kids end up not believing? Right now I'm batting 2 out of 3. One athiest, one agnostic, and our child together really hasn't reached the age to decide for herself. If they all end up not believing...... who is she gonna blame? Probably me right? And if I'm the reason she thinks none of her kids are going to heaven, will she still love me? What about if she had found someone to date first? Would she have listened to me if I broke down and told her I wanted her back? Or was this what it took for her to realise she still loved me even though we are on two different paths religiously? I don't know.

     But I do know that as much depression as I've suffered going through all this. Getting to the point of acceptance and moving on. Then being slung back into the same relationship I just lost has not been good for the Ole Dark Bishop. I want to open up. I want to let the past year go. But how? So far she really seems like she loves me and accepts that I'll never be Christian again. But I can't shake the dread that what I just went through might happen again.  But I do love her. And I really feel like she loves me again...... until I get to thinking....... Ugh...... complicated sucks.

 

Dark Bishop

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Damn son...  anything I can do for you, let me know.

[TABA]

Hey DB,

 

I'm sorry it's been so rough for you.  Probably not a lot of fun for your Ex either.  I'm no counselor but I'll toss in my thoughts for what they're worth...

 

I guess there's two parts to this: the religion issue and then everything else.  Being Unequally Yoked is a big deal.  It's rarely easy.  If the believer thinks the infidel is going to Hell, then it can be well-nigh impossible: how do you live like that, thinking your partner in life is heading for the lake of eternal torment?  Or even thinking about spending eternity without them?

 

If Eternity doesn't make the relationship impossible, then what's needed is respect for each other's different beliefs.  That involves both rights and responsibilities.  She has the right to live her faith to a reasonable extent, and you have the right to live your non-belief.  So she has the right to go to church or to pray without being ridiculed, and you have the right to not participate in any religious activities or prayers.  I also think you can't rub the partner's nose in it: so she shouldn't be quoting scripture at you and you shouldn't be watching atheist videos when she's there. Unless you both agree that's OK.  Also acceptance:  you might wish she'd see the truth and deconvert and she wishes you'd stop denying God, but you can't expect that to happen.  Trying to change a partner is a well-known recipe for trouble.

 

And then there's all the other issues that may be there between you.  Every couple has their own challenges, quite apart from any religious issues.  I do think your situation is made more complicated - and maybe weird - by the fact that you're living under the same roof after being divorced.  You're either a couple or you're not and divorce means you're not, anymore.  Not saying you can't reconcile, but this twilight zone you're in right now doesn't seem like a good way to do anything.  I understand there may be financial considerations, and you have a child at home, but still...

 

My hunch is that you should try dating other people.  And maybe she should too.  Staying together just out of habit is not enough.  Maybe dating others will reassure you that you both still love each other.  Or not, as the case may be, but in that case you can move on.

 

So, my advice is worth what you're paying for it, but I hope it helps a bit, my friend.

 

All the Best
TABA

 

P.S. At some point you may find this book helpful:  In Faith and In Doubt: How Religious Believers and Nonbelievers Can Create Strong Marriages and Loving Families, by Dale McGowan.

[Astreja]

DB, I think it's time to work on physically separating the households so that you can stop interacting with Ex Ms. Bishop.  It'll be hard, but going no-contact is your best hope for establishing a new life for yourself.

 

If you choose to remain under the same roof, her reaction to the date was a deal-breaker.  Going forward, don't tell her anything at all about your private life because she abused your courtesy heads-up and doesn't deserve another one.

[Myrkhoos]

Sorry to hear all of that.

 

    But I would emphasize Astreja's point of physical separation. You seem stuck in emotional limbo. So, either find some way of reconnecting or separate altogether is my feeling.       

     This situation seems the worst arrangement for both of you. Like going through half a surgery or something and remaining with the wound.

    I had some similar relationship issue ( but way less intense as no marriage and kids). I dragged it on way later that should have including the living together for a while.

    Maybe you should find some therapist to support you during these very trying times. Not necessarily for advice, but for the emotional processing of it all.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I'm reticent to say anything because this situation is very complicated; but, have you and the former missus considered the impact this continued nebulous situation is having on the little one?  Kids pick up on a lot more than we realize.  She's likely already figured out that something is  happening between mommy and daddy; but doesn't quite know what... yet.  This makes y'all's living arrangement that much more confusing to her.  And most kids, especially divorced kids, want nothing more than for their parents to stay together and be happy.  She feels a tinge of hope every time you and the former missus seem to be doing better.  Hope which gets dashed every time y'all decide, again, to call it quits.  Hopefully I'm wrong; and it's none of my business anyway.  But it seems possible that y'all are sending mixed messages to more than just each other.  

 

Just my thought, take it for what it's worth; but it might be finally time to yank the band-aid off.  For all y'all's sake.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

I appreciate everyone's comments. I haven't responded because because was sleeping earlier and had a lot of shit to do when I got to work. Anyway. 

 

The house separation thing is over. Right now we are trying to make it work again. So we are basically living together as a couple again. 

 

@TheRedneckProfessor I was real worried about how our daughter would react. I told her that if we were going to do this we count keep flip flopping back and forth. Just because I know it has been an emotional roller coaster for our daughter too. The boys are both grown. And they are technically her step sons. But she considers then her own.

        So our daughter is really the only one we have to worry about. we sat her down and talked to her about it when we decided to try again. And since then we haven't been fighting or anything. Not about anything big anyway. I laid a few rules down from the beginning. Before we told our daughter or anyone else.

 

1. She had to accept that I am not Christian anymore, I have no desire to go to church, and if I do go to church I'm probably waiting until food is involved. (I have a soft spot for old church lady food )

 

2. We weren't going to flip flop. If we tried this time and failed then that was it. No more. We can't keep putting our daughter through all that.

 

Those are the biggest ones. There were a few others that I put out there that we are still working toward. I suppose we could both be doing better on those. But she has been more accepting of me not believing anymore. We actually talked a little bit about it the other day. She said that that was one thing she never thought we would have to face. 

 

I can completely agree with that. When we met I was at the very height of my zeal. When we got married I had only just begun to have doubts about certain things. It was about 5 or 6 years later that the questions really started plaguing me to the point I left the church. And then another 2 or 3 before I fully deconverted and met all you wonderful people .

 

But I would have never expected that I would lose my faith either. I was a messenger of God. How could I even conceive at the time that the Christian God was a false God? I couldn't back then. It took time and a lot of reflecting on scripture and actual evidence. 

 

But yall know that story. Ex Ms. Bishop has even mentioned getting married again. That is one of the things that strikes fear into me. I do not want to be married again right now. I would rather her not even mention it. I'm ok with us living together as a couple. Thats gonna have to be good enough for now. 

 

10 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

You seem stuck in emotional limbo. So, either find some way of reconnecting or separate altogether is my feeling.       

 

I'm trying to reconnect now. I feel like she is doing a better job of it right now than me. Because it went so far, I'm having a hard time reconciling the past year. And seeing a future where it isn't possible for the same thing to happen again. Especially if our daughter doesn't believe either. Honestly I would rather her not believe for obvious reasons. I don't want my kids wasting their lives on fairy tales. But if she doesn't believe then I'm probably gonna end up being the bad guy again. 

 

12 hours ago, TABA said:

Not saying you can't reconcile, but this twilight zone you're in right now doesn't seem like a good way to do anything.  I understand there may be financial considerations, and you have a child at home, but still...

 

My hunch is that you should try dating other people.  And maybe she should too.  Staying together just out of habit is not enough.  Maybe dating others will reassure you that you both still love each other.  Or not, as the case may be, but in that case you can move on.

 

Twilight zone is a good term. Especially when I get to thinking about it too much. As much as I was ready to date someone else before, this event has wiped that out of me. I dont know what I want right now. It's all confusing. 6 months ago I thought it was over, done, finished. I was planning what I was going to do with the house after she left. I was gonna make a hell of a bachelor pad. I knew where I was planning a game room and going to set up a wet bar with a kegerator for my friends when they came over, etc. I was moving on and making plans for it. I was actually starting to feel good about it. And feeling like life was about to start getting better. I'd started getting into the Groove on tinder. Actually my date was going to be a tinder date. Hey. I was a free man again. Swipe right, swipe right, swipe right, LMAO. I had met a woman 9 years older than me that was still pretty cute and had a good personality, owned a business. Hell I was setting myself up to be a sugar baby. 

 

And now it's all complicated again.  I wish I could forget the past year. But I can't. Ugh..... anyway. Yall have given me some stuff to think about. And I thank you for it. 

[sdelsolray]

Couples counseling would likely be quite helpful.

[Myrkhoos]

It also really depends on type of Christian your wife is. If she really thinks you are going to Hell and your influence is detrimental to your daughter and she's staying in the marriage out of some martyr/saviour thing, I guess that would very uncomfortable for you as well.

    

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

52 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

Couples counseling would likely be quite helpful.

Very true. I think I need some separate counseling on the matter as well. Which is why I posted this thread. It'd be nice if there was an exchristian professional I could talk to one on one. It would be hard for me to find a non Christian counselor around here. Not to mention it costs $80 a session and they want to do it weekly. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

26 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

It also really depends on type of Christian your wife is. If she really thinks you are going to Hell and your influence is detrimental to your daughter and she's staying in the marriage out of some martyr/saviour thing, I guess that would very uncomfortable for you as well.

    

That's a possibility.  And I really don't know that that's not the case. She does believe I'm going to hell. She said it's sad for her to think about me not being in heaven with her. I joked and said well maybe they'd let ya telephone hell so we could talk. Lol...... yeah she didn't think it was as funny as I did. 

[Joshpantera]

This is complicated for sure. But the general issue of people being split up over changing religious views must be increasingly common just going on the Pew Research data on the loss of church attendance and religious affiliation. It's been dropping off through the century. The people who are opting to stay with church and religion are shrinking. It's going to look to them like no one's going to heaven except a slim few. My in-laws are right there. They press on with SDAism wondering why in the world no one else seems to care. They're too old and stubborn at this point to see it any different way or to change their own views. Which will end with them - no one's interesting in furthering those views. 

 

20 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

But I do know that as much depression as I've suffered going through all this. Getting to the point of acceptance and moving on. Then being slung back into the same relationship I just lost has not been good for the Ole Dark Bishop. I want to open up. I want to let the past year go. But how? So far she really seems like she loves me and accepts that I'll never be Christian again. But I can't shake the dread that what I just went through might happen again.  But I do love her. And I really feel like she loves me again...... until I get to thinking....... Ugh...... complicated sucks.

 

 

 Maybe over time she'll see that there must be a reason no one else believes it anymore? 

 

She's not too old to possibility change her views. Unless she clings to them despite everyone else growing up and calling fairy tales, fairy tales, and moving on with their lives. Or is she more inclined to dig her heels into the sand further like my in-laws? And grow old in an isolated and alone with her belief's scenario? 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

59 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

Or is she more inclined to dig her heels into the sand further like my in-laws? And grow old in an isolated and alone with her belief's scenario? 

 

I dont know. Right now she isn't really attending a church. She has been watching one local church in you tube every Sunday. Right after I deconverted she dug her heels in. I'm assuming she thought I had fallen into the devils grasp because we had not been attending.  I'm hoping now she'll at least be more moderate. 

[Myrkhoos]

5 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

That's a possibility.  And I really don't know that that's not the case. She does believe I'm going to hell. She said it's sad for her to think about me not being in heaven with her. I joked and said well maybe they'd let ya telephone hell so we could talk. Lol...... yeah she didn't think it was as funny as I did. 

Yeah, so with that mindset I really cannot fathom a romantic relationship really working beyond an agreed upon level of mutual toleration. And you seem to want more than that. 

    Buuuut you have way more data on you two than I could possibly have.

    I can give a personal example. So I'm pretty anti abortion at the moment. It is something that touches upon my views on human nature and proper human relations. ( really doesn't matter your position on it nor do I want a discussion on it now). I could not have a romantic relationship with someone with drastically different views. Sex? Probably? A level of friendship? Maybe. A level of toleration? Most definitely. 

    But a long term romantic relationship, for me, is more than casual intercourse and some friendship. Maybe that's just me, but I struggle to see how high emotional intimicy can be reached without a basic worldview agreement.

   I reeeeally hope you get through this suffering towards some sort of satisfying closure whatever that means for you practically.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Again, I hesitate to say this; because it sounds like y'all have made a decision.  And sometimes the best  you can do in a situation is make a decision and stick with it, come hell or high water.  But it sounds to me like neither one of you are really sure of your decision, or even completely comfortable with it.  In fact, if I'm being completely honest, it almost sounds like y'all are both just reacting to the situation rather than taking the bull by the horns, as it were.  It seems like y'all are focusing more on each other's wants rather than examining what y'all want/need as individuals. 

 

Now, there's nothing wrong with a relationship where y'all focus on each other; but that's got to be balanced by having your own needs met as well.  And, right now, it seems as if y'all both want something outside of what the relationship currently offers.  You both might end up with regrets if y'all stay together just because she's upset by the thought of you hitting a bit of strange, and you're uncertain about losing the familial structure that has been a source of stability and comfort for the last ever-how-many fuckteen years.

 

Again, nothing wrong with staying together and working on making the relationship offer more.  But do so with a clear vision and understanding of what you need out of it and a clearly defined limit on what you can offer.  She can't offer you the excitement and thrill of that *new car ride*; but she can maybe put together a Tinder date for y'all to go on.  You can't offer her eternal togetherness in heaven; but you can attend as many church services as offer food.  And, hell yeah, chicken pot pie, mashed taters and gravy, country fried steak, tall glass of diabetic coma inducing sweet tea, and homemade chocolate pie.  Fuck, there's your heaven right there.  But I digress.

 

Point is, don't either one of you need to rush into a decision because it's convenient, or because y'all fear the unknown.  This is the rest of y'all's lives, and that little girl's.  Everhow y'all decide, y'all both need to be sure and comfortable with it. 

[TABA]

9 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

It's been dropping off through the century. The people who are opting to stay with church and religion are shrinking. It's going to look to them like no one's going to heaven except a slim few.

This is an important point.  Believers finding themselves to be part of a shrinking group may even see it as vindication: they’re still part of the true church while Satan is picking off so many weaker brethren.   But it can also force them to confront some uncomfortable things: it’s easy to not question the doctrine of Hell, for example, when everybody you know is a believer (and hopefully the right kind of believer) and therefore going to Heaven.  But when your dogma says that a lot of people you know and even love are bound for Hell (and must deserve it because god is just!) then the human mind is naturally going to search for reasons to not believe it, even if that’s only a subconscious search.  The believer is forced to confront the teachings about Hell, and wrestle with them.  This is good, and it can make deconversion contagious. 

[TABA]

10 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Ex Ms. Bishop has even mentioned getting married again. That is one of the things that strikes fear into me. I do not want to be married again right now. I would rather her not even mention it. I'm ok with us living together as a couple. Thats gonna have to be good enough for now.

Maybe it’s just me, but I wouldn’t even think about you two getting married again anytime soon, maybe ever.  There’s too much important stuff unresolved.  As Redneck said…

 

18 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Point is, don't either one of you need to rush into a decision because it's convenient, or because y'all fear the unknown.  This is the rest of y'all's lives, and that little girl's.  Everhow y'all decide, y'all both need to be sure and comfortable with it. 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

38 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Again, I hesitate to say this; because it sounds like y'all have made a decision.  And sometimes the best  you can do in a situation is make a decision and stick with it, come hell or high water.  But it sounds to me like neither one of you are really sure of your decision, or even completely comfortable with it.  In fact, if I'm being completely honest, it almost sounds like y'all are both just reacting to the situation rather than taking the bull by the horns, as it were.  It seems like y'all are focusing more on each other's wants rather than examining what y'all want/need as individuals. 

 

Now, there's nothing wrong with a relationship where y'all focus on each other; but that's got to be balanced by having your own needs met as well.  And, right now, it seems as if y'all both want something outside of what the relationship currently offers.  You both might end up with regrets if y'all stay together just because she's upset by the thought of you hitting a bit of strange, and you're uncertain about losing the familial structure that has been a source of stability and comfort for the last ever-how-many fuckteen years.

 

Again, nothing wrong with staying together and working on making the relationship offer more.  But do so with a clear vision and understanding of what you need out of it and a clearly defined limit on what you can offer.  She can't offer you the excitement and thrill of that *new car ride*; but she can maybe put together a Tinder date for y'all to go on.  You can't offer her eternal togetherness in heaven; but you can attend as many church services as offer food.  And, hell yeah, chicken pot pie, mashed taters and gravy, country fried steak, tall glass of diabetic coma inducing sweet tea, and homemade chocolate pie.  Fuck, there's your heaven right there.  But I digress.

 

Point is, don't either one of you need to rush into a decision because it's convenient, or because y'all fear the unknown.  This is the rest of y'all's lives, and that little girl's.  Everhow y'all decide, y'all both need to be sure and comfortable with it. 

 

You need to change your name to TheRedneckWizzard because that's some sage fucking shit right there!!!!

 

(That's a compliment BTW! ) 

 

Just saying, Very wise words. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

29 minutes ago, TABA said:

This is an important point.  Believers finding themselves to be part of a shrinking group may even see it as vindication: they’re still part of the true church while Satan is picking off so many weaker brethren.   But it can also force them to confront some uncomfortable things: it’s easy to not question the doctrine of Hell, for example, when everybody you know is a believer (and hopefully the right kind of believer) and therefore going to Heaven.  But when your dogma says that a lot of people you know and even love are bound for Hell (and must deserve it because god is just!) then the human mind is naturally going to search for reasons to not believe it, even if that’s only a subconscious search.  The kind is forced to confront the teachings about Hell, and wrestle with them.  This is good, and it can make deconversion contagious. 

I actually told her about the book heaven and hell a history of the afterlife. There are a lot of books that I would like to buy a physical copy of to put on the book shelf. Maybe one day she'll get curious and Crack one open. It would be great if she atleast didn't believe believe I was Going to hell. The hell that is preached today isn't the hell the early church believed in. And certainly not the hell that the Jews believed in. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

15 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

You need to change your name to TheRedneckWizzard because that's some sage fucking shit right there!!!!

 

(That's a compliment BTW! ) 

 

Just saying, Very wise words. 

Yes, well, I've always had wisdom beyond my ears. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I'm a retired professional and will tell you that as long as someone in a relationship is trying to "save" or change the other, you will have problems.  And there will be underlying currents as long as one sees the other as inferior in any way, but trys to pretend everything is okay.  Only those who truely accept each other "as is" have a healthy relationship. 

 

Ambivalence.  Fear of closeness, or commitment.   You want something, but are at the same time are afraid of it.  You aren't alone in this "boat".  Many relationships suffer from it, resulting in a love/hate cycle.  Sometimes it is a traditional mode of thinking and behaving handed down through families.   I don't recommend getting married until you can truely accept each other.   The main thing your daughter needs, is to see her parents treating each other with respect, whether it is living together, or separating.  And she needs to know she is in no way responsible for her parents problems, and is loved by both.  Be sure to emphasize this, because children often believe they are the cause of parents problems.   

 

A core human need is to feel loved and worthwhile, which is usually being threatened in human relationship problems.  Do what you can to keep those intact for everyone.  BEST WISHES!

 

I might add, if both of you are horny, go for it With no strings attached!  It is much safer than sleeping around, but I would recommend birth control.

[◊ Krowb ◊]

6 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Yes, well, I've always had wisdom beyond my ears. 

 

It's definitely not between his ears. . . 

 

 

I'll see myself out

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, Weezer said:

I'm a retired professional and will tell you that as long as someone in a relationship is trying to "save" or change the other, you will have problems.  And there will be underlying currents as long as one sees the other as inferior in any way, but trys to pretend everything is okay.  Only those who truely accept each other "as is" have a healthy relationship. 

 

Ambivalence.  Fear of closeness, or commitment.   You want something, but are at the same time are afraid of it.  You aren't alone in this "boat".  Many relationships suffer from it, resulting in a love/hate cycle.  Sometimes it is a traditional mode of thinking and behaving handed down through families.   I don't recommend getting married until you can truely accept each other.   The main thing your daughter needs, is to see her parents treating each other with respect, whether it is living together, or separating.  And she needs to know she is in no way responsible for her parents problems, and is loved by both.  Be sure to emphasize this, because children often believe they are the cause of parents problems.   

 

A core human need is to feel loved and worthwhile, which is usually being threatened in human relationship problems.  Do what you can to keep those intact for everyone.  BEST WISHES!

 

I might add, if both of you are horny, go for it With no strings attached!  It is much safer than sleeping around, but I would recommend birth control.

 

I knew there was somebody on here that was a retired professional but couldn't remember who. I thought it was Walter for some reason . I got the wrong W. 

[Joshpantera]

On 12/10/2021 at 5:54 PM, DarkBishop said:

 

I knew there was somebody on here that was a retired professional but couldn't remember who. I thought it was Walter for some reason . I got the wrong W. 

 

My 2nd marriage is not about either of us wanting any change in the other! Weezer's right about this. I love her for who she is and she feels the same way about me. We agree on non-religion. I was in two very bad situations previous. She was in one bad marriage previous. He was an SDA fundamantalist wack job. She put her foot down and left. 

 

So we both appreciate an environment of overall acceptance and agreement on most issues. We don't take these better relationship conditions for granted, either. We both understand that they can be rare in this world. Neither of us want to be divorced again. So that's an underlying motivator to get anything that pops up settled. But the most important factor is that it's not fake or forced - we're in love for real and it's quite different than my previous marriage and most relationships prior.