Never too old to learn?

[Narrator]

Hi all,

 

I'm a regular kind of guy, have a regular kind of job, a family and grand-kids. Retirement isn't far off.

I've had my smart moments and my foolish ones. I guess that's a regular kind of life, huh.

 

I was brought up in a Christian family, went to Sunday-School etc, but it wasn't a big thing in our family.

 

At age 16, I was "Born again". The thing about being Born Again is, you know you have found the truth, right? In year 12 (1975), I studied theology, which included the Documentary Hypothesis. I don't recall if it was called that back then but it has evolved in the years since then. DH showed me how Genesis (and the first 5 books) could not be a historical text. It taught me how prehistory people looked at truth and spirituality. At the time, I saw all of this as logical and moderated my beliefs, comfortable in the knowledge that I was better informed than my fundamentalist acquaintances. Little did I realize, that was the first wedge in my beliefs.

 

That theology class turned me from accepting to questioning. It took another 35 years of questioning until I had to admit to myself, "I can no longer call myself a Christian." Yes, it was a slow cook. The longer you spend time invested in something, the more you have to let go of. Admitting I were wrong about the cornerstone of my life for over three decades is not easy. But once I admitted that I was wrong, things did become easier.

 

At times I'm openly anti-religion and wondering why people can't see the fallacies. Then I remember how long it took me.

 

I've also been caught on the hop a few times, 'defending' my disbelief. I remember one time, while working for a NFP organization. The boss and receptionist were both righteous Christians. At the end of a difficult day, they cornered me, asking about my deconversion. I was tired, my brain was no longer engaged. I reacted rather than reasoned. To them, that was proof that I was a fool. (Ever been there?) I learned from that.

 

These days, I rarely engage with believers. It's often a fool's errand, but I try to leave them with something to think on.

 

The last time I had a significant win that way was with a fundamentalist who thought himself scientifically literate. He disbelieved the notion that time is relative in science. I forget exactly why, but it conflicted with his religious beliefs regarding causality. He said relative time was only a belief and not proven. I told him to look up GPS accuracy and how it is dependent on relativity. He was skeptical, but had to prove me wrong. To his credit, the next time I saw him, he said I was right.

 

I'm not great at verbal debating, but I can plant a seed once in a while.

 

[DanForsman]

Hi Narrator. Congratulations! It's takes a lot of courage to reject Christianity at any age after buying in, as it is filled with every psychological and emotional trap or hook known to mankind. Fear being one of the most powerful. However after 35 years of faith, rejecting a position you probably supported and maybe even promoted to your children and grandchildren must be extremely difficult. For me rejecting Christianity was very important for my personal growth but especially as time goes by I have less and less interest in changing the beliefs of any Christians I run into. I do support any political movements aimed at getting Christianity out of my everyday life and out of tax exempt status. You don't owe it to any Christian to explain why you rejected your previously held beliefs. If I cared about the Christian asking I would keep it very simple and say that I spent a good amount of time looking into it and decided that it didn't seem true. If they pushed more I would just say that there were many books and much information online with many specific points that they could check out if they were interested. The awesome thing is that you have freed yourself from the clutches of the church. Good for you and welcome to ExC.     

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Great to have you in the community Narrator!!

 

It's really amazing how the more you actually learn about the scripture, the harder it is to believe and have faith in what is preached/taught in the churches. "According" to the scripture.

 

DB 

[Narrator]

Thanks Dan and Dark.

Very much appreciated.

Freed myself from not only the clutches of the church, and also from their unsupportable ethics, their anti-reason stance and their distrust of good science.

And yes, the more you get beyond Sunday-School and learn about scripture, the more impossible it is.

 

A Christian work colleague once told me not to listen to reason. Just have faith.

 

[Joshpantera]

17 hours ago, Narrator said:

These days, I rarely engage with believers. It's often a fool's errand, but I try to leave them with something to think on.

 

The last time I had a significant win that way was with a fundamentalist who thought himself scientifically literate. He disbelieved the notion that time is relative in science. I forget exactly why, but it conflicted with his religious beliefs regarding causality. He said relative time was only a belief and not proven. I told him to look up GPS accuracy and how it is dependent on relativity. He was skeptical, but had to prove me wrong. To his credit, the next time I saw him, he said I was right.

 

I'm not great at verbal debating, but I can plant a seed once in a while.

 

Welcome aboard! 

 

You can browse our debate forum section and see many a fool's errand on the most recent debates with apologists. It's a lot of planting seeds, sure.

 

It would be somewhat rewarding to see any of them return with a change of mind. Your guy was pretty open minded to admit that he had it wrong. Sounds like a flat earther type mindset looking into it and realizing that obviously the earth is spherical. Obviously, time is relative in the same way. 

 

We've had some bat shit crazy apologetics as of lately. This one guy thinks that the particle - wave duality works as evidence for the existence of god. 

 

 

[Narrator]

4 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Welcome aboard! 

 

You can browse our debate forum section and see many a fool's errand on the most recent debates with apologists. It's a lot of planting seeds, sure.

 

 

Thanks Josh. I might just do that.

[alreadyGone]

As the transition from theism to non-theism can be bumpy for some, so it has been for me.

 

The members here have been unfailingly tolerant, kind, and gracious, and that has helped me make the transition.

 

I hope this site will be helpful for you as well.

Welcome.

[Narrator]

Thank you, alreadyGone.

[TABA]

Hey @Narrator, I’m a little late but welcome to our community!  I was rather a late developer myself in terms of seeing through Christianity and deconverting, which only happened in my 50s.  I actually started to drift away in my 20s but childhood indoctrination is powerful and I slid back in by the time I was 30, though into a different version than I grew up in.  For the next 20+ years I suppressed any doubts, until eventually I didn’t.  So as you say, Never Too Old to Learn.  
 

Again - welcome!  

[Narrator]

Thanks Taba.

Funny, the mechanism that has us suppressing doubts... about anything, not just religion.

Cheers!

[◊ Weezer ◊]

It was a gradual awakening for me also.  I faked it the last few years due to family pressure and my employment (with a church funded agency) but at age 50 I couldn't take it anymore.  Walked out of church in the middle of a sermon and have only been back for funerals since that time.  That was 30 years ago and time has only reinforced my agnosticism.  

[freshstart]

Hi Narrator, Hope you find it helpful here.  Mine was a long, slow deconversion also. From the time I was a very young child, no one could give a satisfactory answer to some serious questions. The standard answer was, "god will answer everything once you get to heaven." When raising kids I thought it would be negligent to avoid the same indoctrination I got, so I brought my kids to church, reinforced the rubbish, and allowed my mom to deepen the brainwashing, which now consumes me with guilt for reasons I won't elaborate upon.  But still the cognitive dissonance persisted.

Then in my 40s I was a professor in a Christian college. And that is when my deconversion began in earnest. Having to navigate those waters with students and faculty who expected me to serve as a spiritual mentor became too much to bear, so I left after about 8 years. I still work for a religiously affiliated organization, but I've been able to "come out" -only when the opportunity to say that arises organically. And I'm careful to avoid use of the "A word" to describe myself among most family. One day I hope to be eloquent and brave enough to assert my beliefs - no matter who is present in the room -  when it makes sense to do so.

[Narrator]

5 hours ago, freshstart said:

One day I hope to be eloquent and brave enough to assert my beliefs - no matter who is present in the room -  when it makes sense to do so.

 

I know that feeling well. I'm betting many of us here do.

 

I worked for 2 religiously based NFP organisations as a teacher for several years. They were during my early deconverted years, when things were still a bit raw. I tried to keep it to myself, for the most part. There are times when I can be eloquent. But other times, my mouth lets me down.

 

I think, perhaps for some of us, we inwardly recognize that "asserting our beliefs" was part of the problem when we were believers. That makes us more cautious in asserting a different belief. Well, that and becoming a pariah amongst family or colleagues.

[Lerk]

On 12/11/2021 at 10:50 PM, DanForsman said:

I spent a good amount of time looking into it and decided that it didn't seem true.

 

I would say something similar, but I say "realized that it isn't true" rather than "decided," the reason being that they use the term "decided" to mean that you can choose whether to believe something or not. From our point of view, there was a decision of sorts, but not a "flip of a coin" sort of thing. It was reason, so I think the word "realized" better illustrates my change of beliefs, and can't be twisted to mean something else.

[Narrator]

On 1/4/2022 at 5:33 AM, Lerk said:

 

...so I think the word "realized" better illustrates my change of beliefs, and can't be twisted to mean something else.

 

Agreed. Half the arguments come down to words being twisted.

(Waits to see if someone asks how I measured that.)

[midniterider]

On 12/11/2021 at 11:35 PM, Narrator said:

Thanks Dan and Dark.

Very much appreciated.

Freed myself from not only the clutches of the church, and also from their unsupportable ethics, their anti-reason stance and their distrust of good science.

And yes, the more you get beyond Sunday-School and learn about scripture, the more impossible it is.

 

A Christian work colleague once told me not to listen to reason. Just have faith.

 

 

Welcome to Ex-c.

 

Faith! "Yes, work colleague, I used to reason out my conclusion about why Christianity is BS, but now I just have faith that it's BS" (haha)

[◊ Weezer ◊]

12 hours ago, Narrator said:

 

Agreed. Half the arguments come down to words being twisted.

(Waits to see if someone asks how I measured that.)

 

It is important to use the correct words when posting.  Our "salvation" on the forum depends on it!