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ISRAEL PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF GOD


Fish153

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I'm sure by the title of the topic you can see I am a Christian.  I really want you to consider something seriously.  (2) things happened almost simultaneously that in my estimation prove that God exists. Many people point to nature, or the stars, or our own self-awareness as reasons to believe God exists.  Those are all good reasons.  But a literal miracle happened in 1948, when the state of Israel was born.  Through all of the Biblical prophets the promise that the Jews would be dispersed throughout the world, and then re-gathered in the last days is a major theme. The fact that this occurred as "promised" is the greatest reason of all to know that God exists.

 

For hundreds of years the Jews waited for the promise made to them in the Prophets to be fulfilled.  For hundreds of years many mocked and said this could never happen. "How could the Jews possibly return and have their OWN nation again?"  They mocked that the Hebrew language would once again be used as a national tongue, saying it was a "dead" language. it appeared to be impossible that such a thing could ever happen.  After 2000 years? "Give me a break!" many would say.  "That could never happen!"

 

After 6 million Jews were murdered during World War 2 a miracle did happen.  3 years later Israel was "born"---literally in a day, just as Isaiah had prophesied in Isaiah 66.  Now think about this carefully.  The Jews were dispersed in 70 A.D. when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple.  For 2000 years they were dispersed.  They then returned to their own land in 1948.  This is one miracle.

 

But wait---what other thing occured simultaneously?  In 70 A.D. The Essenes took many scrolls in jars and hid them in caves near the Dead Sea.  For 2000 years these scrolls remained undiscovered in those caves.  THINK ABOUT THAT. For 2000 years the MANY jars containing scrolls remained UNDISCOVERED in the caves. 2000 years!! No one "stumbled" upon these scrolls, or thought to search the caves for ANYTHING during 2000 YEARS?? REALLY???  But in 1947 an Arab shepherd boy tossed a rock into one of the caves and heard something break. The jar was very close to the mouth of the cave---close enough that the boys rock hit the jar and broke it.  The boy investigated and discovered the first of the "Dead Sea Scrolls".  COINCIDENCE?  ONE YEAR before Israel becomes a nation again the scrolls are found???  After 2000 years both Israel is reborn----and the Dead Sea Scrolls are found within ONE YEAR OF ONE ANOTHER.  Think about that fact seriously. Coincidence? I don't think so.  What did the Dead Sea Scrolls reveal??

 

A full scroll of the book of Isaiah was found.  When matched with modern manuscript it differed only in spelling errors here and there.  But it matched the book of Isaiah that we have today almost exactly!  This was no coincidence my friends. God was proving that His WORD had not changed in all that time!  Israel being re-gathered, and the Dead Sea Scrolls being found at the exact same time was orchestrated by God.  The Hebrews and the Hebrew Scriptures were both "found" once again----2000 years later, and within one year of one another!   When we look at these events closely, and truly consider them we see that there IS A GOD who is orchestrating this.  The rebirth of Israel in their land is the "beginning" of the return of Christ to this world.  I don't care if atheists laugh at this conclusion---and I also feel extremely sorry for those who have "deconverted" from a faith that is VERY REAL AND ALIVE. They have made a major mistake, and will miss out on massive blessings had they just continued to believe.

 

In these "last days" God is proving he exists.  Through Israel and the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Through DNA. Jesus said "the very hairs of your head are all numbered" and indeed THEY ARE. DNA proves to us just how unique each one of us is----fingerprints had ALREADY proved that----but DNA has reinforced this fact many fold more.  For anyone to say "there is no God" is to be very foolish indeed. As we move closer to the end God is making it far more clear that He exists. We have to be willfully ignorant not to see it.

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2 hours ago, Fish153 said:

After 6 million Jews were murdered during World War 2 a miracle did happen.  3 years later Israel was "born"---literally in a day, just as Isaiah had prophesied in Isaiah 66.  Now think about this carefully.  The Jews were dispersed in 70 A.D. when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple.  For 2000 years they were dispersed.  They then returned to their own land in 1948.  This is one miracle.

 

Why didnt God protect the 6 million Jews from being incinerated by the Nazis? I'll call this an anti-miracle.  

 

2 hours ago, Fish153 said:

 

But wait---what other thing occured simultaneously?  In 70 A.D. The Essenes took many scrolls in jars and hid them in caves near the Dead Sea.  For 2000 years these scrolls remained undiscovered in those caves.  THINK ABOUT THAT. For 2000 years the MANY jars containing scrolls remained UNDISCOVERED in the caves. 2000 years!! No one "stumbled" upon these scrolls, or thought to search the caves for ANYTHING during 2000 YEARS?? REALLY???  But in 1947 an Arab shepherd boy tossed a rock into one of the caves and heard something break. The jar was very close to the mouth of the cave---close enough that the boys rock hit the jar and broke it.  The boy investigated and discovered the first of the "Dead Sea Scrolls".  COINCIDENCE?  ONE YEAR before Israel becomes a nation again the scrolls are found???  After 2000 years both Israel is reborn----and the Dead Sea Scrolls are found within ONE YEAR OF ONE ANOTHER.  Think about that fact seriously. Coincidence? I don't think so.  What did the Dead Sea Scrolls reveal??

 

A full scroll of the book of Isaiah was found.  When matched with modern manuscript it differed only in spelling errors here and there.  But it matched the book of Isaiah that we have today almost exactly!  This was no coincidence my friends. God was proving that His WORD had not changed in all that time!  Israel being re-gathered, and the Dead Sea Scrolls being found at the exact same time was orchestrated by God.  The Hebrews and the Hebrew Scriptures were both "found" once again----2000 years later, and within one year of one another!   When we look at these events closely, and truly consider them we see that there IS A GOD who is orchestrating this.  The rebirth of Israel in their land is the "beginning" of the return of Christ to this world.  I don't care if atheists laugh at this conclusion---and I also feel extremely sorry for those who have "deconverted" from a faith that is VERY REAL AND ALIVE. They have made a major mistake, and will miss out on massive blessings had they just continued to believe.

 

I feel you set the bar pretty low as to what constitutes proof (or evidence) for the existence of God. I could say Chic Fil A is very popular, it's leader is a Christian, therefore, God is real. It's kind of silly though. 

 

Instead of thinking about 'evidence for God' why not just present God himself? Let's you and me ask him to appear, ok? Lord Jesus, please appear in person, preferably in a magical way on my screen, maybe come out of the screen and appear in my room here. Let my wife see you too. Maybe appear on tv or at a town hall meeting as well. This would help your dwindling Christian numbers and certainly gain more followers if they didnt have to have faith. Please do something more real than what generally sounds like a human being having wishful thinking (the OP). Amen.

 

 

2 hours ago, Fish153 said:

 

In these "last days" God is proving he exists.  Through Israel and the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Through DNA. Jesus said "the very hairs of your head are all numbered" and indeed THEY ARE. DNA proves to us just how unique each one of us is----fingerprints had ALREADY proved that----but DNA has reinforced this fact many fold more.  For anyone to say "there is no God" is to be very foolish indeed. As we move closer to the end God is making it far more clear that He exists. We have to be willfully ignorant not to see it.

 

Conflating DNA and fingerprints with that bible passage is nonsense. You are grasping at straws. 

 

 

I'm not an atheist. Maybe there is a God, I dont really know for sure. I doubt it is the one in the bible, though. The one in the bible doesnt strike me as a supreme being. 

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Midnite--

No. Not nonsense. "The very hairs on your heads are all numbered". Before DNA was discovered everyone said Jesus was just teaching that God knows everyone intimately. Very true. But remember-- the WORD (Jesus) created all things. Was He speaking of DNA that wouldn't be discovered for 2000 years? The hairs on our heads ARE numbered. DNA is a blueprint for who each of us is. Don't cast this aside as "nonsense". Jesus was stating something metaphorically, but also SCIENTIFICALLY though those addressed had no idea of that at the time.

 

Secondly, God isn't going to appear because we ask him to. In Hebrews 11 it says that those who come to God must "BELIEVE THAT HE EXISTS". Why? Because God has chosen that way to know Him. Why did God ALLOW 6 million Jews to perish? I don't know. I WILL know one day. God is infinite, with infinite wisdom and understanding. The Bible says He is ALLOWING evil to run it's course. Why? I don't know. But I do know that one day evil will be destroyed and all tears will be wiped away. God is clearly showing us He exists. Israel and the Dead Sea Scrolls PROVE it. DNA proves it, along with fingerprints. As time moves forward the PROOFS of God's existence grow. One must be WILLFULLY ignorant to deny His existence.

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1 minute ago, Fish153 said:

Secondly, God isn't going to appear because we ask him to. In Hebrews 11 it says that those who come to God must day"BELIEVE THAT HE EXISTS". 

 

Then it appears that I will never believe in your god, and that there's absolutely nothing that you or any other apologist can do to change that.

 

I don't believe nonsensical things on the say-so of humans or old books.  My evidentiary standard regarding god-like beings is simple:  I require an encounter with the alleged god in the physical world.  This is what it will take to convince me, and it is not negotiable.

 

You can call me "willfully ignorant" to your heart's content.  I'm just going to laugh at you.

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All tears will be wiped away? 

 

That is simply bullshit. If I were a Christian I would be expected to share eternity with the jakey* b______d who raped a woman very close to me and be happy about it. And also with the scum who promoted him in their church while slut blaming her.

 

Tell me how I could forget that and have all tears wiped away? Not happening.

 

Do yourself  a favour and get a life before it's too late.

 

*jakey is a Scottish word for an alcoholic junkie.

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IF the existence of the christian god is actually proven, then acceptance of it would no longer require faith.  What, then, becomes of salvation by grace... through faith?  You see, proving god renders faith unnecessary; but faith is required for salvation.  It's a hell of a pickle; and I certainly would want to be you when you have to explain it.

 

Welcome to the community, though.  I hope you'll enjoy your stay.

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1 hour ago, Fish153 said:

...Secondly, God isn't going to appear because we ask him to. In Hebrews 11 it says that those who come to God must "BELIEVE THAT HE EXISTS". Why? Because God has chosen that way to know Him. ...

 

Fish,

Please explain this..

In your thinking and belief, why would God choose to have us "know him" by such means as this?

What in your thinking is the reason a perfect all-knowing God would hold this matter of "faith", belief in something none of us can see to be so important?

 

 

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12 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

 

Fish,

Please explain this..

In your thinking and belief, why would God choose to have us "know him" by such means as this?

What in your thinking is the reason a perfect all-knowing God would hold this matter of "faith", belief in something none of us can see to be so important?

 

 

 

 

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"Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist,'" says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing."
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2 hours ago, Fish153 said:

Midnite--

No. Not nonsense. "The very hairs on your heads are all numbered". Before DNA was discovered everyone said Jesus was just teaching that God knows everyone intimately. Very true. But remember-- the WORD (Jesus) created all things. Was He speaking of DNA that wouldn't be discovered for 2000 years? The hairs on our heads ARE numbered. DNA is a blueprint for who each of us is. Don't cast this aside as "nonsense". Jesus was stating something metaphorically, but also SCIENTIFICALLY though those addressed had no idea of that at the time.

 

Secondly, God isn't going to appear because we ask him to. In Hebrews 11 it says that those who come to God must "BELIEVE THAT HE EXISTS". Why? Because God has chosen that way to know Him. Why did God ALLOW 6 million Jews to perish? I don't know. I WILL know one day. God is infinite, with infinite wisdom and understanding. The Bible says He is ALLOWING evil to run it's course. Why? I don't know. But I do know that one day evil will be destroyed and all tears will be wiped away. God is clearly showing us He exists. Israel and the Dead Sea Scrolls PROVE it. DNA proves it, along with fingerprints. As time moves forward the PROOFS of God's existence grow. One must be WILLFULLY ignorant to deny His existence.

 

If Jesus knew his science then why didnt he share any of it? Besides flat earth, non moving earth and Pi=3. 

 

It's convenient that God isnt going to appear, isnt it? Well his method of 'communication' sucks then. Or he just doesnt exist, which is more likely imo. I dont mind asking God why he screwed over 6 million of his supposedly chosen people. Either he's a jerk or he doesnt really exist. Or he's impotent. (See Epicurus) If you want to love a being that screwed over his 'beloved' people, enjoy your stay in heaven. I'll pass on it. 

 

If you have the power to stop evil but dont, then you're evil yourself. God looks down on the earth and says, "Gee, Hitler is killing Jews by the droves....maybe after he kills 6 million of them I will create a U.N. endorsed nation called Israel where they will all live...oh right, they wont be alive....duhhhh." 

 

YOU want to remain WILLFULLY ignorant  by not trying to figure out why God allows evil. You're perfectly good with not knowing because considering the possible reasons will lead to the conclusion that God IS evil. 

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Ok @Fish153

 

So ........ the dead sea scrolls were preserved in those caves "By God" correct? And that was God's miracle. ........ ok. I will admit that the dead sea scrolls were and still are a great find in helping reconstruct ancient canaanite beliefs. As well as the Ugarit tablets. Scholars studying those scrolls and tablets are beginning to paint a very different picture than the narrative your following. Maybe those scrolls were preserved not by a miracle of God but by a miracle of The isrealite Gods. Plural. I think I need to buy this book. It looks like an interesting read to add to some other studies I found during the time I was deconverting.

 

"Some scholars who have used the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint to reconstruct the authentic version of the verse say that “children of Israel” was stuck in as a replacement for “sons of El.” With that lost phrase restored, a verse that was cryptic suddenly makes sense: El—the most high god, Elyon—divided the world’s people into ethnic groups and gave one group to each of his sons. And Yahweh, one of those sons, was given the people of Jacob. Apparently at this point in Israelite history (and there’s no telling how long ago this story originated) Yahweh isn’t God, but just a god—and a son of God, one among many.

So how does Yahweh rise through the ranks? How does a god initially consigned to a lower level of the pantheon eventually merge with the chief god, El, and even, in a sense, supplant him? …"

 

-Robert Wright

https://evolutionofgod.net/question_israelite

 

There was an even greater find in the ugarit tablets that detail a whole pantheon of God's. Not only was Yahweh a son of the most high God El. But Ba'al aswell. Yet in the Bible we read today. Ba'al worshippers were to be killed and the altars of Ba'al torn down. I mean we can really only speculate to the reason for the divide. But I would assume that just as during the times that worshippers of Greek mythology had their various Greek God's that they worshipped. So to in the Elyon pantheon. Different people worshipped different God's within the the divine family. And if the original story had people splitting up and worshipping different sons of the most high God El. Then this version of the story makes sense. Some would worship Yahweh, others would worship Ba'al, etc. But at some point this group that worshipped Ba'al fell out of favor for whatever reason with those that worshipped yahweh. Those that worshipped yahweh obviously won the battle and rewrote the story. 

 

Here is an interesting study done by someone at Brigham Young University. It's very interesting in its findings on ancient canaanite beliefs. I need to give it a thorough read but from the few pages I read toward the middle it brings out some good points on the ancient beliefs of canaan. Here is something that really stuck out to me. 

 

"The word ‘il is used over five hundred times in the texts from Ugarit.18 The 
most obvious usage of the word is the name of the divine patriarchal god, who 
was the head of the pantheon.19 El has a role as the father (‘ab) of the pantheon 
and of humankind.20 He is seated before the divine council (El’s family) as its 
head.21 He is portrayed as being elderly and bearded and is often called the 
“ageless one” or “father of years.”22 He acts as a help to both the lesser gods23
and mankind.24 Interestingly, El is also seen as the creator in a Hurrian-Hittite 
text discovered in Anatolia.25 El sits on the throne with his consort and wife 
Athirat, or biblical Asherah, the “Progenitress of the Gods.”26 El’s attributes as a 
kind father are expressed in the phrase “Kind El, the Compassionate.” Another 
important epithet associated with El is that of “Bull,” found in almost all 
mythological or epic texts.27
The abode of El is described in the Ba’al myths as being “at the source of 
the rivers, amid the channels of the two oceans.”28 El is seen as dwelling on a 
remote mountain in the north, with which Cross sees direct Biblical correlation 
in Isaiah 14:13, where the mount of the council of El is referenced to be in the 
distant north.29 El is also said to dwell in a tent, pavilion, or tabernacle similar 
to the biblical ‘ohel mo’ed.
30 This could correlate with the tent traditions of the biblical Shiloh (Ps 78:60; Josh 18:1; 1 Sam 2:22) or even the seminomadic 
patrimonial traditions of the ancient Hebrews."

 

The God of the Patriarchs and the Ugaritic Texts_ A Shared Religi (1).pdf

 

In one article I read concerning the exodus it was stated that during the time of the supposed exodus that the land of Canaan that the isrealites fled to was under the control of the Egyptian Empire anyway. So it would have been like fleeing Georgia to California to escape the United States. That wouldn't make sense would it? But what does make sense is that the story of the exodus was spun by a canaanite group that worshipped Yahweh and that this group told the tale of Moses fleeing Egyptian oppression with God's people. And that it was completely fictional. They also promoted their God "Yahweh" to the level of El by saying El and Yahweh were one and the same. Or I guess you could go with the Jewish apologetic stance that it wasn't a large group of people fleeing Egypt but a small group. Here is a article from a Jewish scholar. 

 

"Those archaeologists’ claims that the Exodus never happened are not based on evidence, but largely on its absence. They assert that we’ve combed the Sinai and not found any evidence of the mass of millions of people whom the Bible says were there for 40 years. That assertion is just not true. There have not been many major excavations in the Sinai, and we most certainly have not combed it. Moreover, uncovering objects buried 3,200 years ago is a daunting endeavor. An Israeli colleague laughingly told me that a vehicle that had been lost in the 1973 Yom Kippur War was recently uncovered under 16 meters—that’s 52 feet—of sand. Fifty-two feet in 40 years!

Still, all of us would admit that two million people—603,550 males and their families, as the Torah describes—should have left some remnants that we would find. But few of us ever thought that this number was historical anyway. Someone calculated long ago that if that number of people were marching, say, eight across, then when the first ones arrived at Sinai, half of the people would still be in Egypt!

There is no archaeological evidence against the historicity of an exodus if it was a smaller group who left Egypt. Indeed, significantly, the first biblical mention of the Exodus, the Song of Miriam, which is the oldest text in the Bible, never mentions how many people were involved in the Exodus, and it never speaks of the whole nation of Israel. It just refers to a people, an am, leaving Egypt."

 

Please read the whole article.

https://reformjudaism.org/exodus-not-fiction

 

Alright.... so according to the dead sea scrolls and the ugarit texts there was a pantheon under the most high God El. Who even Jesus invokes on the cross. "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" My God, My God, why have you forsaken me. The root word of My God being the word "EL". 

 

Now...... could you please tell me how this Miracle of The preserved dead sea scrolls helps your argument? What you refer to as the word (jesus) being there during the creation is false. According to the miracle of the dead sea scrolls we find that the creator god El was probably talking to his sons and daughters when he said let's make man in our image. Likewise when the "sons of God" came and made themselves wives of the daughters of men. Those were ancient left overs from when there was a pantheon in which the canaanite God had sons that were Gods themselves Unless...... oooooo maybe Jesus is just another son of God like Ba'al, yam, or Yahweh. Maybe he's the baby boy........... yah know.... I wonder why God didn't send one of the others Instead of Jesus. I mean.... really... according to the dead sea scrolls he had choices. Was he the favorite? Or was he the least favorite. Obviously at the cross he felt like the least favorite. I'm just saying...... your dead sea scroll miracle is really sending me mixed messages. Those little differences in wording that you mentioned in some cases mean a lot. And make a big difference. 

 

Now your 1948 miracle..... eh. Not that great of a miracle honestly. Hell God couldn't even give them all of it back I guess. 

 

1948 Arab-Israeli War

Following the announcement of an independent Israel, five Arab nations—Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon—immediately invaded the region in what became known as the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

Civil war broke out throughout all of Israel, but a cease-fire agreement was reached in 1949. As part of the temporary armistice agreement, the West Bank became part of Jordan, and the Gaza Strip became Egyptian territory.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/topics/middle-east/history-of-israel

 

I mean..... yeah. They weren't able to even take control of the temple mount until 1967. 19 years later. And even now as part of a peace agreement an Islamic waqf is the head of administration. Over the temple. The temple of the "Jewish God" is ran by an Islamic religious leader. Not only that. It has been ran by an Islamic religious leader for almost 900 years. Wow.... God is great huh?

 

 

"An Islamic Waqf has managed the Temple Mount continuously since the Muslim reconquest of the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem in 1187. On June 7, 1967, soon after Israel had taken control of the area during the Six-Day War, Prime Minister Levi Eshkol assured that "no harm whatsoever shall come to the places sacred to all religions". Together with the extension of Israeli jurisdiction and administration over east Jerusalem, the Knesset passed the Preservation of the Holy Places Law,[120] ensuring protection of the Holy Places against desecration, as well as freedom of access thereto.[121] The site remains within the area controlled by the State of Israel, with administration of the site remaining in the hands of the Jerusalem Islamic Waqf."

 

My my my. That does not sound like a miracle orchestrated by the old testament God at all. He would of had the isrealites kill all Muslims, their wives, and children. Then torn down their altars to Allah. 

 

But anyway. To each their own right? I mean if that's a good enough miracle at the hand of an omnipotent God for you. Then you go for it bud. Just seems..... a little weak to me. 

 

Best regards,

Dark Bishop

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Apparently, god knows the future, so he knew that Adam and eve would eat from the tree of knowledge and condemn us all to sin and depravity. Did he have the power to intervene and he just chose not to? Or was he willing to intervene but not able? Maybe it's both. Maybe god is a man-made myth that has suckered billions of people out of their hard earned money. Wait...why does god need money? Did creating the universe tap his resources? Or was this entire "put money in the plate" bullshit concocted by a certain group of men to ensure their income?

In the words of the late, great Christopher Hitchens..."Religion is man-made...AND IT SHOWS."

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18 hours ago, Fish153 said:

I'm sure by the title of the topic you can see I am a Christian.  I really want you to consider something seriously.  (2) things happened almost simultaneously that in my estimation prove that God exists. Many people point to nature, or the stars, or our own self-awareness as reasons to believe God exists.  Those are all good reasons.  But a literal miracle happened in 1948, when the state of Israel was born.  Through all of the Biblical prophets the promise that the Jews would be dispersed throughout the world, and then re-gathered in the last days is a major theme. The fact that this occurred as "promised" is the greatest reason of all to know that God exists.

 

Yep, it's right front of everyone's face. 

 

ISRAEL!

IS RAEL!!

IS REAL!!!

 

That proves it, god IS REAL!!!!

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@LogicalFallacy   I have to go to work. But you remember when we debunked the Tyre prophecy and then extended analyzing the claims of fulfillment of prophecy up to the creation of modern Israel? I know we have it all on here somewhere. 

 

Long story short, it's not coincidence or anything at all. It's completely fabricated. As usual, these so-called prophecies are worked backwards after the fact to try and make it appear as if they were foretold, when they clearly were not. As christians we just took these claims at face value and believed that the bible prophecied any number of things, including the creation of modern Israel. When that's obviously not even remotely true to begin with. 

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Fish,

 

There's something you should know about proofs.

 

They can only be used in mathematics or in logic.

 

They can't be used in history, historical research, archaeology, theology or matters of faith.

 

So, unless you are making a mathematical argument or a logical argument you can't use the word 'proves' in your claim.

 

You can claim that there is evidence for your claim, but no more than that.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

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walterpthefirst:

Is this proof by logic?

Christians assert that the Bible teaches that people who reject Jesus will go to hell - unless a person has never heard, then they go to heaven.

Christians send out missionaries to try to convert people who have never heard (and therefore are destined for heaven) and promise them heaven if they believe - so those who don’t believe will go to hell.

Thus Christians condemn people to hell.

PS: this is data of the christian mindset, I’m not saying I believe it, I can see where the logic fails!

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On 12/18/2021 at 2:22 PM, Fish153 said:

For anyone to say "there is no God" is to be very foolish indeed. As we move closer to the end God is making it far more clear that He exists. We have to be willfully ignorant not to see it.

 

For what it's worth, I think it's pretty obvious that everyone here involved used to think this way or similar, and at least one person still does. This is something that we clearly understand. When you haven't questioned the claim to the extent that I have, it can seem as though all sorts of things point to the existence of god. The problem is that anything you can possibly offer will have alternative explanations. Many of which make more sense than a supernatural god did it. 

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Looks like the fish has already been flushed. .......... eh. Oh well. I was actually interested to hear what he came up with before it started revolving in circles. 

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