ISRAEL PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

[walterpthefirst]

Fish,

An argument based upon odds and probabilities isn't an argument based upon objective evidence.

Objective evidence consists of independently verified facts that are available to everyone.

You have been persuaded by the likelihood of Israel being evidence of god.

But we sceptics are not persuaded by likelihoods.

So, let me ask you again, do you have any objective evidence to support your argument?

Not odds or probabilities or likelihoods, but verifiable facts.

Thank you.

Walter.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hello again Fish.

 

You seem to have missed me out in your responses.

 

Could you please present some objective evidence to support your argument that Israel is evidence for God?

 

You gave me objective evidence for the existence of the nation of Israel, for the existence of the Dead Sea scrolls and for their discovery.

 

Each of those things is an objective item of evidence that can be independently verified.

 

But your argument itself depended upon the probability of these things taken together being evidence for god.

 

As I mentioned earlier, objective evidence itself doesn't depend upon probabilities, odds or likelihoods.

 

Here's why.

 

The odds of Paris being in France are exactly 1 to 1.

 

The probability that Paris is in France is exactly 100%.

 

The likelihood that Paris is in France is exactly 100%.

 

You see how it works, Fish?

 

So, can you please present some objective evidence that doesn't depend on the likelihood of several different things being taken together?

 

Like my Paris in France examples?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

6 hours ago, Fish153 said:

DarkBishop—

 

Do you realize that archaeologists and others MOCKED the Bible for saying the Hittites existed? It’s true. THEN it is proved they DID exist. Many places and people found in the Bible have proven to be true. If that is your REASON for not believing you better read some more.

 

So by your reasoning Superman must exist because cities are mentioned in the comics that actually exist. Same goes for Harry Potter and a multitude of other things. 

 

The bible also talks about unicorns, dragons, floods that didn't and couldn't happen, humans apparently living for 900+ years, the sun standing still and so on.

 

Also notice that God gets angry, jealous, wrathful, judgemental? These are all too human emotional states. What is an immaterial being outside of time and space, and apparently beyond our comprehension doing getting angry? Heck if our mates starts getting angry we tell them to calm down. God got so pissed off that he committed mass genocide and and animalcide according to the bible . What did the lambs do?? 

 

So I'm not sure what your point above is supposed to prove. We have found many things mentioned in ancient texts that we didn't think actually existed. But because we've found a few from the bible you want to cherry pick and say it proves God. More and more archaeological evidence is showing that the supposed conquest of Canaan didn't happen as written about. That the walls of Jericho had already been brought down long before the time the Hebrews were supposed to be conquering the land. There is evidence that the first five books were written by different authors at different times with parts altered and redacted. Which is why you get two creation stories and two flood stories that requires theological mind bending to explain.

 

So I will grant you that some events and places mentioned in the bible are at least to some degree historically accurate. It would be nice if you then could accept that there is also a lot of stuff in the bible that is just plain made up or wrong.

[Myrkhoos]

I read part of these posts.

 

So far, I see the same pattern - which actually made me break with official Church Teachings. 

    You start with - insert denomitation dogma - is true. Then accept and search for anything that confirms it, reject anything that disconfirms it. Logical arguments are only useful insofar as they are in the former.

    The issue is you can start this game with any premise. Start with I AM GOD. For example. I can make a story out of it - this body is just the manifestation you can perceive, my presence is a mystery, etc. I just refuse to play this type of game anymore, for now, beyond pointing out the structure of it.

    The game can be spectacularly complex. Humans are very creative, especially some of us. I grant you that. But pointless really when trying to find out truth. But that's why you see many, many religions with blasphemy laws and strict taboos violently enforced. The whole story collapses if it allows real investigation from different angles. But whole societies and power structures are built around these stories - like universal inaliable human rights so I poke some fun at the secular fictions not only religious ones. :))

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

So I will grant you that some events and places mentioned in the bible are at least to some degree historically accurate. It would be nice if you then could accept that there is also a lot of stuff in the bible that is just plain made up or wrong.

 

And most the historically accurate parts end up tying in with and becoming historical fiction. Unprovable fabrications based on historic events. To someone who refuses to consider secular findings. It is almost impossible for them to see that the Bible is not historically accurate. 

 

It's really sad that the marvels our scientific research has brought forward and discovered in the past, are so easily swept away by the faithful assertions of the delusional religious populace.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@Fish153

 

The major issue I have with the idea that the Israeli nation is evidence of god's existence is the obvious confirmation bias involved.  You have already concluded, presupposed as it were, that god exists.  Now you are digging for any scrap or shred of information that might support your preconceived conclusion, while ignoring all evidence to the contrary.  You've put the cart before the horse and now want to deride those who point out that your cart isn't moving. 

 

But a sound conclusion, however, rests upon a firm foundation of support having taken all of the evidence into account.  Indeed, a sound conclusion is derived from a close examination of all of the evidence; and cannot be arrived at until all conflicting evidence has been reconciled.  This often means that the conclusion reached differs greatly from the perceived answers to the questions originally posed. 

 

Now, you will want to argue that we are also guilty of confirmation bias; because we "chose to reject god first and refuse to give such evidence as you offer any credence."  This strawman argument fails to consider that we were once you.  We believed every bit as ardently as you and experienced every bit as authentically as you.  All the while, mind you, examining the same evidence you have at your disposal. 

 

We also, as christians, looked at the evidence with the same confirmation bias with which you currently view it.  But eventually and often for different reasons, we decided to start seriously considering the rest of the evidence, the things that contradicted our preconceived conclusion.  As such, it is not nearly as likely for us now to engage in confirmation bias concerning the existence of god; because we have seen both sides of the issue, in some cases, much more deeply than we would have liked.

[Astreja]

6 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

So by your reasoning Superman must exist because cities are mentioned in the comics that actually exist. Same goes for Harry Potter and a multitude of other things. 

 

Don't forget the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man!  Ghostbusters happened in New York, and I know that New York exists because I've actually been there.  And Casey Kasem appears in the first movie.  And I've actually met Dan Aykroyd.  Checkmate, Christians!

[midniterider]

Fish, why do you believe the bible is true? I mean, besides 1948 Israel and The Scrolls. Were you raised as a Christian?

[Fish153]

Walter--

The odds of Paris being in France are extremely different than the odds of Israel being reborn, and the scrolls being found after 2000 years just one year apart. The odds of that happening are astounding. The Scrolls are so deeply tied to Israel-- the fact that they were HIDDEN for 2000 years and then FOUND just as Israel became a nation again (within one year) 2000 years later are astronomical odds.

 

I understand why deconverts seek to refute this and scoff at this. You see, one day "every knee will bow" to Jesus. These people refuse to bow NOW, but they will one day. Peter says that scoffers are WILFULLY IGNORANT, because they KNOW the truth but refuse to acknowledge it. It is quite simple actually. These people accuse God of "assigning" people to hell, while refusing to acknowledge they have been extended mercy to escape that very hell themselves 

 

2  Thessalonians says that people will go to hell because "they refused to receive the love of the truth". They are not assigned to hell-- they REFUSE to humble themselves to RECEIVE THE TRUTH. How sad on that day for them to realize they could have received Christ but refused Him. Sad indeed.

[Fish153]

Midnite---

I did not care about God at all up until I was 17 years old. We didn't go to church, and I never read the Bible. I was as much a heathen as anyone 

My next door neighbor knocked one day and said "Joe, there's still time". That's literally all he said, and handed me a Gospel of John to read.

I shelved it for about three days, but having some free time I began to read. When I reached John 10 I read "I am the Good Shepherd and I call my sheep by name".

 

I don't know how to explain this but I heard my name being called-- no a physical voice, but an inward drawing. I said "Jesus, can I be one of your sheep?" and I became overwhelmed with emotion.

No one else was there influencing me-- there was no music or altar call. I was alone, touched by the Holy Spirit.

 

At that moment the Bible became alive. It was no longer a story or history book. It was like a letter from a Father to His children. I have never been the same since.

 

I have wavered at times and doubted. But I cannot deny how CLEAN I felt, and the massive change that had taken place in me. A yearning to do good and to please Jesus.  I had been an infidel a half hour before, but now I was a Child of God.

 

I have continued for almost 50 years now-- and I believe MORE STRONGLY than at the beginning. I was TRULY BORN AGAIN. I could never renounce the faith. It is TOO REAL.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Glory to Thor!  A series of coincidences led to an emotional response conditioned by societal norms and influences!  I believe!

[Astreja]

17 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Glory to Thor!  A series of coincidences led to an emotional response conditioned by societal norms and influences!  I believe!

 

My brother says, "Takk fyrir, og Gleðileg Jól!"

 

Meanwhile, dear sweet Uncle Loki is, um, "sampling" the mead.  Apparently He needs a rather large data set for His study, because He just asked for another hornful.

[Astreja]

43 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Thessalonians says that people will go to hell because "they refused to receive the love of the truth". They are not assigned to hell-- they REFUSE to humble themselves to RECEIVE THE TRUTH. How sad on that day for them to realize they could have received Christ but refused Him. Sad indeed.

 

And why should I believe what the author of Thessalonians had to say, Fish?

 

And why would an allegedly omnipotent deity have even the slightest problem with people who aren't humble enough?

 

And what is it with the human-sacrifice fetish of "receiv[ing] Christ," anyway?  Pretty fucking disgusting.

 

No, you don't have any "truth" there that is up to my evidential requirements.  Posting it in ALL CAPS just makes you look like a young teen who just discovered the Internet five minutes ago.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 hours ago, Fish153 said:

These people accuse God of "assigning" people to hell, while refusing to acknowledge they have been extended mercy to escape that very hell themselves 

I would like to clarify a point here, speaking strictly for myself.  I do not reject salvation out of rebellion, arrogance, ignorance, stubbornness, or any of the other strawman traits christians want to attribute to me.  I reject salvation out of a deep sense of morality.

 

The entire idea of substitutionary death is completely abhorrent to me; and anyone who justifies it on my behalf is both despicable and appalling.  If I have done wrong, it is my place, and mine alone, to make amends and provide restitution to the person(s) I've injured.  No one else needs to be involved.  It's no one else's business, nor place to interfere, interject, or influence the outcome.  And, certainly, no one needs to die on my behalf for wrongs I have done.

 

Who the hell does god think he is to just start killing someone else simply because I stole a box of crayons in the 2nd grade?  And why the hell would he expect me to be eternally grateful to him for doing so?  I never asked jesus to make that kind of sacrifice on my account; I never expected anybody to die for me.  Those crayons are between me and Ms. Burton, to whom they originally belonged.  Nobody needs jesus to get involved.

 

Moreover, if god really knew me well enough to have the ever decreasing number of my hairs on file, then he should also know how sickened I would be by the idea of somebody else actually dying over an injury that I caused.  Hell, I wouldn't even let my older brother take my beatings for me when we were kids; and I don't even like his sorry ass.  Why would I be okay with someone I'm supposed to love dying in my place?

 

I have a moral obligation to make right when I've messed up.  It is my responsibility and no one else's.  I reject salvation because the entire concept of substitutionary death is atrocious, twisted, and evil; and it could only have been imagined by the most demented and diabolical of psychopaths. 

[Fish153]

LOL Redneck. Unbelievable. "A series of coincidences led to an emotional experience..." Do you remember the blind man in John 9? Jesus healed him and the Pharisees REFUSED TO BELIEVE IT even though they KNEW IT WAS TRUE.  The only thing the blind man could say was "ONCE I WAS BLIND BUT NOW I SEE".

 

What can one do if those he speaks to are WILFULLY BLIND? 

 

Redneck-- My life was COMPLETELY AND RADICALLY CHANGED. If you want to say "a set of coincidences" led to that be my guest-- be as blind as the Pharisees. All I can say is "once I was blind but now I see".

 

There is no one blinder than the one who REFUSES to see. This defines Deconverts to the letter.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Halle-fucking-lujah, brother... but I'm still not convinced.  And speaking down to me like you're somehow superior for believing without evidence isn't going to help your case.

[Fish153]

"It is impossible for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED if they fall away, to renew them to repentance". Astreja, others, it appears this is the case with you. You have tread under foot the Son of God, and are hardened terribly. I know now why I stopped going to these boards. It's the blind leading the blind. Goodbye.

[Fish153]

Good luck Redneck. See ya.

[Astreja]

1 minute ago, Fish153 said:

Redneck-- My life was COMPLETELY AND RADICALLY CHANGED.

 

This is a common human experience that occurs in people of all religions, Fish.  In all probability it is a psychological and neurological effect, not a supernatural one.

 

Oh, and deconversion also causes lives to be completely and radically changed.  That's why this site exists.  It's pretty fucking hypocritical of you to expect us to believe that your experience is THE TRUTH and that our experiences are the result of self-induced Willful Blindness Disorder.

[Astreja]

2 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

"It is impossible for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED if they fall away, to renew them to repentance". Astreja, others, it appears this is the case with you. You have tread under foot the Son of God, and are hardened terribly. I know now why I stopped going to these boards. It's the blind leading the blind. Goodbye.

 

Fuck you and fuck the Holy Spirit.  May you lose your faith by inches, weeping in the night as it slips away, and in that moment may you finally come to understand us.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

15 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Good luck Redneck. See ya.

Y'all come back and see us, y'hear?

[Fish153]

Astreja--

When I saw your post I had to comment. Look what you said about the Holy Spirit. You are WILFULLY doing something you know Jesus condemned forcefully. That is your heart. The people in John 6 were "followers" or "disciples" of Jesus who turned back "and followed Him no more".

 

They were not TRULY changed people at all. They "claimed" to be, but their actions-- their "ability" to turn back forever proved they had never been changed. Peter, despite his great fall afterwards WAS a changed person. He saw he had nowhere to go but to Jesus. But these people in John 6 were ABLE to turn back wilfully-- thus PROVING they were never Christians in the first place.

 

No-- my faith won't slowly bleed away. On the contrary my faith has grown over these 50+ years. And I DO understand you. You are an apostate who is ABLE to curse the Holy Spirit as you do. But you know what? I believe if you were to turn back God would receive you. Because nothing is impossible for God. It may be "impossible" for those who have fallen away to repent, but it's not impossible for God to receive anyone who turns to Him in sincerity.

You most likely won't though. Read Psalm 1. It speaks of those who stop walking and STAND STILL. Then soon they are "sitting" in the seat of the scornful. We must humble ourselves and return which is highly unlikely with most on this board. You are like the Pharisees-- WILFILLY BLIND. And yes I will use CAPS when I say that Astreja. It is for emphasis.  Goodbye to you people though. One day you WILL bow before Jesus Christ. I don't wish Hell upon you at all. I wish you would repent and turn back. Good luck!!

[alreadyGone]

4 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

... Good luck!!

 

What does "luck" have to do with anything?

[Fish153]

Luck is all you've got now. You're gambling with your eternity.

[alreadyGone]

22 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Luck is all you've got now. You're gambling with your eternity.

 

You assume there is any 'eternity' for a human being.

Tell me please, what objective proof is there of the existence of any "human spirit"?

 

Where is there proof of the existence or reality of any spirit at all, human, holy, angel, demon?

 

What in fact is a "spirit" ???

If you are unable to define it, then you can have no objective proof that such exists.

 

If you cannot define it, and therefore have no way to prove that it exists, then by definition you are making a choice to believe in something only because you choose to believe that it exists, because it makes you feel good to do so.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

14 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

That is your heart. The people in John 6 were "followers" or "disciples" of Jesus who turned back "and followed Him no more".

 

They were not TRULY changed people at all. They "claimed" to be, but their actions-- their "ability" to turn back forever proved they had never been changed.

Wait, @Fish153.  Don't go yet.  No True Scotsman just got here.  Be a shame for you to miss him after he came all this way.