ISRAEL PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

[alreadyGone]

You know Fish, I've asked that same question of several true believers here in the past year.

 

No one, not one, would even respond to the question, even after being asked repeatedly.

 

Human beings assume the existence of a human spirit.

People of almost every other religion in the history of man has assumed there to be a human spirit. Ever notice, even many atheists believe in an eternal human spirit?

 

And yet, no one can even define it.

Strong closely-held belief in something that has never been seen, which no one can define.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fish153]

I did want share one last thing with all of you, because many of you "claim" you were once real Christians.  It has to do with Hebrews 6:4-6. These verses frighten and alarm many Christians. And you know why? Because they truly believe.

 

I am writing a short story about these verses. You see, I believe God put those verses where they are to act as a "fence" for those who truly believe. The Word is a "two-edged sword". It drives some to God-- but also drives others who really don't believe, away.

 

A true believer who has strayed reads those verses and is filled with fear. "I don't want to become an spostate!" they cry. Because they TRULY BELIEVE GOD'S WORD they stop dead in their tracks. Many feel great condemnation. But you see, that is why God out the verses there. To hold True Believers in the fold. They CANNOT go BEYOND the verses BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE.

 

But someone who only "claims" to believe and is ABLE to go beyond those verses-- past that fence-- has PROVEN they NEVER REALLY BELIEVED. Because if they believed they would fear. Those who only "claim" to be believers and are ABLE to continue will become the very apostates the verses speak of-- and they will mock what they once believed.  It is the other side of the two-edged sword. Instead of being kept in, they choose to go out. And their very ABILITY to do so shows they never truly had saving faith to begin with. They are soon able to sneer and mock at verses and beliefs they "thought" they held pprecious.

 

Visiting this board has reinforced this story in my mind. Here is a person ABLE to curse the Holy Spirit-- and the person probably says "I used to believe". My answer: no you didn't. You wouldn't be able to write those words or say those words if you did. Deconverts were NEVER real believers at all. They are the people at the end of John 6. Visiting here has strengthened my understanding of these things again

 

How I praise God that I am a Christian. One of His sheep. One of His children whom He calls by name. I praise the Lord Jesus Christ above all things and thank Him with all of my heart for saving me!

[alreadyGone]

Can you respond to my question please Fish?

"I do not know" is a valid and truthful answer, if that be the case.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

See, @Fish153?  Didn't you and No True Scotsman have a nice visit together?  Aren't you glad you stayed?  

 

Come on back anytime, now.  Don't be a stranger. 

[alreadyGone]

 

Oh... the old "you were never truly a believer.." line.

A polite way to say "go on to hell, I'll watch".

 

I can only speak here for myself Fish.

You don't know me.

I'm near your age.

I believed for 58 years.

 

I never imagined that the day might come that I would no longer believe.

I was a protestant Christian, read the bible, prayed daily, prayed for others, prayed in the name of Jesus. You have no truthful, honest basis on which to declare what I did or did not believe or the sincerity of that belief.

 

 

I will ask again: what is a spirit?

Can you define the word as it pertains to the assumed existence of an eternal human spirit?

[Fish153]

Already gone--

 

You are asking for definition of a divine spark of life given to each man. No I cannot define spirit-- I wouldn't even try to. Not everything has a plain, logical answer. God gave men "spirits". It makes us different than the other mammals. We are self-aware as a result. I'm leaving the Board though, but thought I'd answer your post.

 

When you look up into the sky can you say "I understand everything" realizing there is a VAST Universe past those stars and in every direction.

 

Then why do atheists and deconverts expect Christians to "understand" God fully? There are MANY THINGS I don't stsunderstand about God, or what He does-- but because I don't understand am I going to refuse to believe in Him? Of course not. And that's why I think atheists and deconverts are some of the most closed-minded and ignorant people that there are. Of course they think the same of Christians. Lol.  Take care.

[Fish153]

Redneck-- oh the "Scotsman" bull.

[Fish153]

Already gone-

Sure I can. You stopped believing didn't you? Are you afraid of Hebrews6:4-6 even though you've fallen away? If you're not afraid you never really believed. It's a simple test actually.

[alreadyGone]

So you, being no doubt "filled with the holy spirit", are devolving now into thinly-veiled insults.

 

You admit then that you believe in something only because it makes you feel good to believe it. With no other basis for that belief.

And you have predicated an entire system of belief on that.

And nothing more.

 

[Fish153]

I keep posting. LOL. I'm leaving now. It's been fun.

[alreadyGone]

1 minute ago, Fish153 said:

Already gone-

Sure I can. You stopped believing didn't you? Are you afraid of Hebrews6:4-6 even though you've fallen away? If you're not afraid you never really believed. It's a simple test actually.

 

I am afraid of nothing written several thousand years ago by nomadic tribes.

Where is the basis to believe such things?

 

If your answer is that it is the word of God, then we're right back at the beginning. You assume things to be so because you feel good in that belief.

And you admit that you have no other basis but this.

 

[Fish153]

Already gone--  far from it. I don't believe in something because it makes me feel good. Deconverts do that. Because they don't "feel" God, or get the prayers they want answered then God must not exist. Many deconverts claim they left God due to unanswered prayer. That always cracks me up. As though God has to answer our prayers WHEN and HOW we want Him to. They are saying to God on his throne "Move over God, there's two of us now" LOL

[◊ Krowb ◊]

11 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

A true believer who has strayed reads those verses and is filled with fear. "I don't want to become an spostate!" they cry. Because they TRULY BELIEVE GOD'S WORD they stop dead in their tracks. Many feel great condemnation. But you see, that is why God out the verses there. To hold True Believers in the fold. They CANNOT go BEYOND the verses BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE.

 

This selection provides an excellent illustration of the level of mental control that Christianity and other religions will impose on people if allowed.  Christians mocked the Jewish people for instituting Sabbath rules to prevent them violating the commandment to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy, yet are wholly unaware they have done the same to their minds.

 

Do not ask; do not question; obey the religious leader spoon-feeding their interpretation of the infallible word.

 

This mindset is how you wind up with groups like heaven's gate and to a lesser extent, the Amish.

[Fish153]

Already gone--

See. "Nomadic tribes". You never really believed. If you did you couldn't devolve into nonsense as you have. You have laid onto nonsense already gone-- pure nonsense. You are repeating what others have repeated. The Bible was written by 40 different authors spanning a couple of thousand years. It wasn't written by nomadic tribes. Study-- don't listen to what uninformed atheists say. They love to repeat things. "Scholars say..."  Well I've got plenty of "scholars" who say differently. Enough is enough. I've got to get off of the hamster wheel (I need to leave this board).

[alreadyGone]

12 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Already gone--  far from it. I don't believe in something because it makes me feel good. Deconverts do that. Because they don't "feel" God, or get the prayers they want answered then God must not exist. Many deconverts claim they left God due to unanswered prayer. That always cracks me up. As though God has to answer our prayers WHEN and HOW we want Him to. They are saying to God on his throne "Move over God, there's two of us now" LOL

 

Don't project what "many deconverts" may do onto me.

That is not honest and can only come from an attitude of hostility and arrogance.

 

You admit that you have no idea, no shred of a definition of the word "spirit".

And you base your religious belief system on that total lack of definition.

You tell me and others here that we gamble with our "eternal spirit".

 

You tell us that a political construct + some writing by some primitive humans from thousands of years ago of uncertain actual origin is "proof" of the existence of a supernatural eternal spirit.

 

And yet you admit to not knowing what any of that actually means.

That is not rational, nor is it intellectually honest.

[alreadyGone]

The book of Genesis is the foundation of that belief Fish.

And that book describes something that supposedly happened before there were any written human languages. There was no one there to witness or record these supposed events.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, Fish153 said:

Redneck-- oh the "Scotsman" bull.

It is bull; and I'll tell you why.  As I mentioned earlier, when we we're christians, we used the exact same evidence you use to support our beliefs.  We also used the same methods and criteria to determine that we were saved, born again, blood-bought, true christians that you are currently using to verify your own true salvation.  Yet, according to you, we were wrong.  We were never true christians.  We never truly believed.  But we used the exact same criteria as you. 

 

So, if we were never true christians by your criteria, then there is no way that you can be certain you are a true christian by the same criteria either.  You don't have any evidence we didn't have.  You're not using some newfangled method for verifying true christianness that we just didn't have back in the day.  You are using the same standard we used.  If that standard proved us false, then you can never trust it to prove you true.  

 

I'm glad you invited Mr. Scotsman over for a visit.  We had a most pleasant chin-wag.

[Myrkhoos]

About "radical" change. Humans are extremely flexibile psychologically. This is obvious just by observing the myriad cultures all around the world. It is part of the human succes story. 

     Part of this ability is the posibility of feeling peak experiences. Some of them brought on by hallucinogens in controlled scientific conditions. The human neurological system is a wonder still not that well understood.

      People tell stories about "love at first sight" that radically change them.

    That's nothing THAT exceptional.

But maybe you're wrong for rejecting Muhammad ( SAW) and the Quran. We will see, eventually. Maybe we will meet in Hell, us for agnosticism and you for associating others with Allah -shirk. 

    Anyway, I just hope you'll be allright. Goodbye!

 

[alreadyGone]

On 12/20/2021 at 4:37 PM, Fish153 said:

Just to point out. Because I leave for some time it doesn't mean I've abandoned ship. I'll come back as long as I'm not banned. Thanks. Ihave to work etc too, so I may be gone for a day. But I'll be back.

 

"Deconverts and atheists have VERY thin skin. As a Christian I EXPECT you to ban me quite shortly. "

 

 

Apparently...  not.

 

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, Fish153 said:

Walter--

The odds of Paris being in France are extremely different than the odds of Israel being reborn, and the scrolls being found after 2000 years just one year apart. The odds of that happening are astounding. The Scrolls are so deeply tied to Israel-- the fact that they were HIDDEN for 2000 years and then FOUND just as Israel became a nation again (within one year) 2000 years later are astronomical odds.

 

 

 

Fish,

 

 

Let me try to explain this to you in a different way, in the hope that you will understand what's involved here.

 

In your mind you are tying together three different things - two historical events and their supernatural cause.

 

The two events are objective evidence because they can be checked, tested and evaluated by anyone.

 

But the supernatural cause (god) cannot be objectively checked, tested or evaluated by anyone.

 

Not even by you.

 

So, what you are actually doing here is accepting the connection between the cause and the events by faith.

 

Not by mathematics, not by statistics and not by anything your mind can grasp.

 

You are doing this by faith.

 

Isn't that right?

 

 

 

Assuming you agree, would you like me to explain to you what the bible says about accepting things by faith?

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[Fish153]

Well, being human I had to check back. Alreadygone you're correct. I expected to be banned and was not. I tip my hat to the moderators for that. Maybe I'll stay a while.

 

Redneck-- I don't think you read through my posts clearly enough. No-- you are not using the same criteria. You were ABLE to turn away and deny the faith right? That's my point. You are ABLE to read Hebrews6:4-6 fearlessly now right-- and perhaps even mock at it. This is because you DO NOT BELIEVE.

 

If you see a sign that says BEWARE: CLIFF IN 150 FEET and you BELIEVE it you slow down and stop don't you? If you REFUSE to believe it you drive forward towards your own destruction.  Of course, the sign COULD BE false, but if halfway intelligent you would check it out before driving on.

 

Deconverts were ABLE to go right past Hebrews 6:4-6. Why? Because they REALLY didn't believe even though they claimed to. They were always looking for a way out-- a way to get away from Christianity, just like those in John 6. When they found the way out they took it.

 

I've read deconverts saying how they fought to believe and could not. That's bull. If you have REALLY met Jesus you would never turn back. The fact you can turn back proves you never met Him in the first place.

 

I have been a Christian for many years. I have faced doubts just like everyone else. I've even "tried" NOT to believe. But I KNOW what occurred in my life. I CANNOT deny it. I can remember that day 50 years later and I KNOW that God exists. I literally CANNOT turn back fully, and run past Hebrews 6:4-6 with no fear. I do not ever want to be an apostate like Judas. I've failed God for sure. But I love Him too much to turn away. John called himself "the disciple whom Jesus loved" not "the disciple who loved Jesus". That is an important distinction. We love Him because He first loved us. If you KNOW that love it is impossible to "fall away".

 

No-- I do not use the same criteria you do Redneck. Not at all.

[alreadyGone]

The book of Genesis is the foundation of that belief Fish.

And that book describes something that supposedly happened long before there were any written human languages. There was no one there to witness or record these supposed events.

[Fish153]

Walter-

 

Well of course. The odds are staggering that those two things would take place as they did. These are natural odds I'm talking about here. But this causes my faith to strengthen. I can't "prove" God is behind it- but you can't "prove" He isn't behind it either. But because I can't "prove" it was God it still does not lessen the staggering odds for these two events happening so close together. The fact that I can't prove it was God does not remove the fact that it truly could be God also. I can look at the staggering odds, read the prophecies, and DECIDE what I want to believe.

 

If I decide NOT to believe because I can't prove God did it I am forgetting about the odds of it actually happening, and ignoring the odds so I can hold onto my unbelief aren't I? I am jumping through hoops to hold onto unbelief.

[Fish153]

Already gone-- no one needed to be there. The Holy Spirit through Moses is telling us what happened in Genesis. You are forgetting that this is a spiritual book written by the Holy Spirit. You look at everything from a purely human point of view.  As I told Redneck. You see everything with a beginning and an end. But God CREATED time and space so there is no beginning or end with Him. He existed BEFORE (In the eternal sense) time was invented. TIME started at the Big Bang and burst forward as Space expanded (and continues to expand). God CAUSED this. He is not part of time and space. He rules over time and space and is not constrained by it.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

13 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Redneck-- I don't think you read through my posts clearly enough. No-- you are not using the same criteria. You were ABLE to turn away and deny the faith right? That's my point. You are ABLE to read Hebrews6:4-6 fearlessly now right-- and perhaps even mock at it. This because you DO NOT BELIEVE.

So, do you really believe that not a single one of us ever read Hebrews and thought/felt the same way you do?  Our name is Legion, for we are many.