Some examples of astronomically unlikely odds for Fish153 to consider.

[walterpthefirst]

3 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Walter--

That is very untrue. I watch science programs all the time. I was watching NOVA just the other night. And I love nature documentaries also. Science is fascinating. I just see the hand of God in it is all. That doesn't take away from the wonder one finds when considering it. I just look at it from a different angle.

 

I also love STAR TREK THE NEXT GENERATION when it comes to Science Ficton/Space shows. There are some extremely intriguing story lines on that show at times. And Commander Data isn't (or as he would say "is not") too shabby either-- a wonderful character!

 

Exactly, Fish.

 

Just as I said.

 

You interpret (by faith) what science tells us about reality.

 

But science itself cannot say anything to do with matters of faith.

 

That is not within its remit.

 

 

If you find that too exacting, then... tough.

 

 

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Fish153 was convinced (by faith) that the formation of Israel in 1948 and the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls a year later were two occurrences so unlikely to have happened so close together in time that this couldn't be sheer chance.

 

He believed (by faith) that this was the hand of God at work.

 

But he could not accept the examples of astronomically unlikely events that I showed him in this thread.

 

Well, I've just found another example that trumps all of my previous examples and Fish's too.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castaway

 

Chunosuke Matsuyama

 

In 1784, Chunosuke Matsuyama, a Japanese seaman, and 43 of his companions began a voyage to find buried treasure on a Pacific island. During the voyage, a storm blew the group's ship onto a coral reef and forced the sailors to seek refuge on a nearby island. However, the crew was unable to find fresh water or sufficient food on the island. With a limited food supply, consisting mostly of crabs and coconuts, the sailors began to die from dehydration and starvation. Before his own death, Matsuyama carved a message telling the story of his group's shipwreck into thin pieces of wood from a coconut tree, which he inserted into a bottle and threw into the ocean. Approximately 151 years later, in 1935, a Japanese seaweed collector found the bottle. The bottle had washed ashore in the village of Hiraturemura, where Matsuyama was born.

 

 

So, what are the chances of that?

 

The message in a bottle thrown into the sea by Matsuyama could have sunk without trace.

It could have become entangled in flotsam and still be afloat, somewhere at sea.

The bottle could have drifted south and become incorporated in Antarctic pack ice.

It could have washed ashore on some beach and been covered up by turtles burying their eggs.

The bottle could have been found by an illiterate person who simply threw the message onto the fire.

Or it could have been washed up on the shores where Japanese was not spoken or read.

The bottle could have been washed up on any of the 260 uninhabited islands of the Japanese archipelago.

Or it could have been washed up on any of the 6,592 inhabited islands of Japan, but remain undiscovered.

The bottle could have washed up on any part of the thousands of miles of Japan's coastline where the name of Matsuyama the seaman was unknown.

 

But no.  Matsuyama's message came ashore at the very place where he was born.

 

Albeit, 151 years late.

 

 

So, what are the chances of that, Fish?

 

Surely such an unlikely coincidence is clear proof of the hand of God?

 

No?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Here's an even better example of an astronomically unlikely series of coincidences for Fish153 to consider, should he be reading this.

 

 

The oldest parts of the great Finnish epic poem the Kalevala are reckoned to be in the order of 3,000 years old.  It was originally kept as an oral tradition, with later portions dating from 500 b.c.

 

Partway through the poem [the hero] Vainamoinen is given the task of descending to the underland.  Hidden in the Finnish forests, he is told, is the entrance to a tunnel that leads to a cavern far underground. In that cavern are stored materials of huge energy: spells and enchantments which, when spoken, will release great power.

 

To approach this subterranean space safely Vainamoinen must protect himself with shoes of copper and a shirt of iron, lest he be damaged by what it contains.  [The blacksmith god] Ilmarinen forges them for him.  Clad in these insulating materials metals Vainamoinen approaches the tunnel mouth, which is disguised by aspens, alders, willows and spruce. He cuts down the trees to reveal the entrance. He enters the tunnel and finds himself in a deep ‘grave’, a ‘demon…lair’. He has stepped, he realizes, into the throat of a buried giant called Vipunen whose body is the land itself.

 

Vipunen warns Vainamoinen not to bring to the surface what is buried in his caverns. He speaks of the ‘grievous pain’ of excavation.  He warns Vainamoinen that he will end up visiting terrible violence upon humans if he continues on his course, that he will become..

 

‘a windborne disease / wind-borne, water-driven / shared out by the gale / carried by the chill air’.

 

He threatens to imprison Vainamoinen by means of a containment spell so powerful that it is unlikely to ever be broken.  But Vainamoinen will not listen to Vipunen. He sings of his conviction that the power buried underground should be returned to the surface:

 

Words shall not be hid nor spells be buried; might shall not sink underground though the might go.

 

 

 

Now let’s fast forward to the present day.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_repository

 

The name Onkalo means ‘small cave’ or ‘cavity’ in Finnish.

 

To create this facility the native aspen, alders, willow and spruce had to be cut down.

 

A tunnel 1,500 feet deep was dug into the gneiss and granite bedrock.

 

The nuclear waste to be stored in this cave will be kept in containers of copper and boron steel.

 

It is so dangerous that it must stay there for at least 100,000 years.

 

The waste originated above ground, but must be kept underground and never returned to the surface.

 

If excavated it could be used to visit terrible violence upon humans.

 

Nuclear fallout is windborne and waterborne.

 

The nuclear waste at Onkalo is held in a containment system so powerful that it is unlikely to ever be broken.  The zirconium fuel rods containing the uranium pellets will be sheathed in boron steel and sealed inside copper vessels.  These will be sunk into individual cavities drilled into the bedrock.  Then the whole system of tunnels will be backfilled right up to ground level with a mixture of water-absorbing bentonite clay and granite.  Finally, the area will be landscaped and new aspen, alder, willow and spruce trees planted to replace those felled.

 

 

So how could the ancient, preindustrial Finns have known about or understood anything to do with nuclear power?

 

How could they have known that trees would be felled so that a tunnel could be dug deep under the forests?

 

How could they have known that copper and steel (which comes from iron ore) would be used in this cave?

 

How could they have known that this terrible power originated above ground, but must never be returned there?

 

How could they have known that if excavated, this power could be used to wreak terrible violence?

 

How could they have known that this power causes diseases?

 

How could they have known that the fallout from this power travels by the wind and in the rain?

 

How could they have known that this would happen in Finland and not in the other places mentioned in the Kalevala?

 

 

There are just too many coincidences here for this NOT to be the hand of God.

 

Or, could it just be that sometimes there are amazingly unlikely coincidences that have no greater meaning, that just happen and that don't indicate the hand of God at work?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Fish would probably have a Hiisi fit, if he were still around.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Fish would probably have a Hiisi fit, if he were still around.

 

I'll drink to that happening.

 

https://dribbble.com/shots/2523928-HIISI-Loviatar-close-up