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Goodbye Jesus

My Pastor Sets Me Straight


Fish153

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On 12/26/2021 at 10:22 PM, Fish153 said:

My Pastor told me though that I am wasting my time here because it is impossible to bring most of you back to God. It is the Holy Spirit who convicts us— and if He has withdrawn from you, all that is left is mocking and scorn. I realize now why you mock and scorn. I am glad (if my Pastor is right) that most of you won’t go to hell (though I know you mock that concept anyway). But I feel so sad that by your renunciation you have put yourselves in a place of facing great future embarrassment and shame. I realize you mock this NOW, and really don’t care NOW, but you surely will then.

 

This is not an apology. It's maybe some of you did really believe, maybe some of you didn't. And IF his pastor is right, then some of you will be among the shamed at jesus' side while others burn in eternal torment. Maybe this, what if that. 

 

All 100% delusional and subjective to his own inner fantasy world.

 

He may have faked the pastor thing. He has a history of twisting diverse passages in the bible out of their original contexts to try and make his claims. The pastor is either identical in the same way or he's made up the dialogue to further some idea he came up with in his own mind. 

 

These apologists are always useful idiots. By giving them long ropes, they always manage to hang themselves. As a matter of public record...

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There's something else about Fish153 that I'd like to bring to everyone's attention.

 

When looking at his posts most of us concentrated on matters of Biblical exigesis and eisegesis and the internal logic (or lack thereof) in his arguments.  But there's another aspect of Christianity that's of relevance here.  The way in which a person claiming to be born-again of the Holy Spirit conducts themselves.

 

If they claim this and they also claim that they take the Bible as 'gospel' (pun intended) then they have given us a standard of personal behaviour and conduct by which they can be judged.  Not a secular standard of our making, but their own, Bible - based standard of spiritual behaviour.

 

Spirituality shown through their words and their conduct.  Jesus, Paul, Peter and John call this 'spiritual fruit'.  And a born - again Christian should be knowable to others by their good spiritual fruit.  They should display love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self - control in their behaviour towards others.  

 

So, the question is, what kind of spiritual fruit did Fish153 display?

 

 

 

LYING / BEARING FALSE WITNESS AGAINST OTHERS

We know that he lied about what I wrote and what I did not write and that he denied it when I called him on it.

 

TAKING HIS GOD'S NAME IN VAIN

https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/85875-some-examples-of-astronomically-unlikely-odds-for-fish153-to-consider/page/2/

Three times in this thread Fish takes the name of Jesus in vain. "Geez!" to be specific.  Yet, in the same thread he also declares that, 'Jesus is Lord'.  James 3 : 9 - 11 is relevant here.

 

9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. 

10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be. 

11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 

12 My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

 

FILTHY WORDS

Piss, crap, shit, BS, etc.

 

INSULTS

AlreadyGone was described as an anal-retentive personality type by Fish when aG's attention to detail irritated the Fish.  That's a thinly-veiled insult, by any standards.  Actually, Fish accused several of us of being anally-retentive.

 

SARCASM

Wrapping candles was the advice Fish sarcastically suggested to some of us.  

 

 

 

Ok, none of these things on their own is particularly significant, but taken together they seem to indicate that Fish's spiritual fruit were not of the 'good' kind.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

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Christians aren't really any different than anyone else, Walter. Even though they are raised with the layer of insane Christianity, they still generally conform to society and walk and talk like everyone else. 

 

And those are really good points you have made to show that Fish is just like us....except for the Christian pretense.

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5 hours ago, midniterider said:

Christians aren't really any different than anyone else, Walter. Even though they are raised with the layer of insane Christianity, they still generally conform to society and walk and talk like everyone else. 

 

And those are really good points you have made to show that Fish is just like us....except for the Christian pretense.

 

I agree completely, midniterider.

 

Christians are no different to anyone else.

 

But the vital point here is that...  they  believe  they  are.

 

And this belief in their own spiritual rebirth is just as testable as other claims they make.

 

What's different are the criteria we use to test their claim.

 

We test it by looking at how they behave.

 

The NT sets down helpful markers and indicators of just how born again Christians should behave.

 

If they deviate from these indicators by displaying bad spiritual fruit, then they have failed the test.

 

A test not devised by us agnostics and atheists to trap them.

 

But a test whose conditions are plainly written down in the gospels and the epistles.

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

I agree completely, midniterider.

 

Christians are no different to anyone else.

 

But the vital point here is that...  they  believe  they  are.

 

And this belief in their own spiritual rebirth is just as testable as other claims they make.

 

What's different are the criteria we use to test their claim.

 

We test it by looking at how they behave.

 

The NT sets down helpful markers and indicators of just how born again Christians should behave.

 

If they deviate from these indicators by displaying bad spiritual fruit, then they have failed the test.

 

A test not devised by us agnostics and atheists to trap them.

 

But a test whose conditions are plainly written down in the gospels and the epistles.

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree Walter. But he did show remorse when I called him out on it earlier in his other thread. 

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Seems like his pastor said quite a bit for just being pulled aside for a question. But no way to know if he just made that up or not. 

 

The same thought crossed my mind.

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@walterpthefirst

 

While it's not the best show of remorse. This coupled with the change of attitude after talking to his pastor makes me think that for one we made him question something. I don't know what but it looks like he had a lengthy discussion with his pastor. And that he was somewhat open to correction and somewhat admitted when he was wrong according to scripture. 

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2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

We test it by looking at how they behave.

 

The NT sets down helpful markers and indicators of just how born again Christians should behave.

 

If they deviate from these indicators by displaying bad spiritual fruit, then they have failed the test.

 

A test not devised by us agnostics and atheists to trap them.

 

But a test whose conditions are plainly written down in the gospels and the epistles.

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

Jolly good show old boy! 

 

23 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

While it's not the best show of remorse. This coupled with the change of attitude after talking to his pastor makes me think that for one we made him question something. I don't know what but it looks like he had a lengthy discussion with his pastor. And that he was somewhat open to correction and somewhat admitted when he was wrong according to scripture. 

 

Yes! This didn't end like every other incident last year.

 

There was some form of trying to consider at least a few things, instead of completely blocking it all out. Even if he did make up the pastor story, that's a testament to his thinking about something and then changing his own mind through the so-called pastor discourse. 

 

He never admitted to his errors with Matthew 16 and 17, but that's because I don't think he was able to see the error yet in his own mind. Maybe he will look closer someday and think about it some more. His response to you about even jesus not acting "christ-like" with the money changers only shines a light on the contradictory nature of the gospels. Which he may someday get around to considering closer as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Jolly good show old boy! 

 

 

Yes! This didn't end like every other incident last year.

 

There was some form of trying to consider at least a few things, instead of completely blocking it all out. Even if he did make up the pastor story, that's a testament to his thinking about something and then changing his own mind through the so-called pastor discourse. 

 

He never admitted to his errors with Matthew 16 and 17, but that's because I don't think he was able to see the error yet in his own mind. Maybe he will look closer someday and think about it some more. His response to you about even jesus not acting "christ-like" with the money changers only shines a light on the contradictory nature of the gospels. Which he may someday get around to considering closer as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely 💯!!

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That comment about money lenders just proves how out of context he could be. The money lenders were INSIDE the temple, they were self declared JEWS and being entirely disrespectful to the services there.

   If any of us went to a church during a service trying to sell vacuum cleaners, being thrown out , even forcefully, would be expected. 

    But he came HERE. Look at how Jesus acts when he goes to "irreligious" spaces - houses of tax collectors, near adulterers, etc. Rarely a harsh word. 

     I even like that attitude of Jesus - compassion is one thing, letting yourself be mocked in the most intimate places is another.

Like I always say, You turn the other cheek if he slaps you, but if he punches you, avoid and whoop his ass:))

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Two things to say...

 

 

First, my thanks to DB and Josh, but I cannot really take the credit for first identifying how to use spiritual fruit to test what kind of a Christian is displaying.  As you know I never got to meet and talk with BAA, the Born Again Atheist.  He died a full two years before I registered here.

 

But, when I found out about his wonderful history of posts and threads I made it my business to read through them all as thoroughly as possible.  In doing that I saw that he used the spiritual fruit approach when looking, not a Christian's arguments or Bible knowledge, but at their conduct and how they treated people in this forum.

 

So, all I'm really doing here with Fish153 is adopting BAA's approach.  Building on the shoulders of giants, so to speak.

 

 

The second item relates to what DB has said about Fish's contrition.  Assuming that he was genuine, then it looks like Fish is really not much different from anyone else - just as midniterider said.  He just believes that he is.

 

On the pro side he showed remorse and apologized.  He also apologized elsewhere and declared himself to be a 'very impatient person'.  On the con side, he lied, he used dirty words, was sarcastic and was stubborn.  That mix is just like anyone else - just like us, in fact.  We are conflicted and prone to error, we have our good points and can be noble, but we can also be wrong and not have the honesty to admit it.

 

In other words... human.

 

Just like everyone else.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

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  • 4 months later...

Walter——

I hadn’t visited this site since 12-2021 and saw your post to me about “bearing false witness”. I’m not even sure what you were referring to. I made several posts here back then so not sure what you are referring to. But If I offended you at that time, or said something about you personally that you feel damaged your reputation I sincerely apologize. I normally try not to make posts about one person so if I did so, again I apologize.

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Walter—

By the way though are you serious about using “Geez”? I sincerely never thought “geez” had anything to do with Jesus. I’ve used that term for years as an expression, never thinking of Jesus when I said it. And again you mention me “bearing false witness” against you. I sincerely have no idea what you are referring to. Yes, I do remember joking that someone here (I’ve forgotten whom) was “anal retentive” because they were so picky about every word that was used. But geez, I didnt realize that it would lead to an accusation of bearing false witness though. But I do apologize if I offended you.

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Walter—-

“Geez” is actually a contraction for “gee whiz” so stop thinking it is a bad word.

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28 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Walter—-

“Geez” is actually a contraction for “gee whiz” so stop thinking it is a bad word.

 

Cool !  You're from So Cal like I am. What part? As you know down here, you will hear more about Jesus Hernandez (or any Hispanic last name) than you will hear of Jesus Christ. :)

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By the way, I did want to say that I’m not sure if what my Pastor said above is true. I still question. 1 Peter 1 seems to state there is a work of sanctification that is done BEFORE one believes and is cleansed by the blood of Jesus. One is sanctified UNTO believing and cleansing by the blood of Jesus.

 

This could very much align with Hebrews 6:4-6. There is an “awakening” work done on someone. They are “enlightened”, taste the Word and even experience the powers of the age to come. But this is done to bring one to a choice: Continue and believe, or draw back into unbelief.

 

1 John 5:16 seems to infer the “sin unto death” is something that can be observed being done. He tells us not to pray for such a person— perhaps because it is too late. They have crossed a line and can never repent again. It makes me wonder if it is public renouncing of Christ. We are saved by “confessing with our mouth” after “believing in our heart”. Could publicly renouncing faith in Christ be “the sin unto death”?

 

I don’t know but thought I would drop in to say I am still investigating every angle of deconversion. An older ex-Christian named Bruce in Ohio just threw me off his board and told me to f&$#$k off! I remembered that the Moderator here has much thicker skin, and is far more respectful to people. The man in Ohio immediately took offense when I quoted 1 John 2:19. But I wasn’t the one stating what it says in the verse— John the Apostle was!

 

Oh well, maybe I’ll check back again in a few months. All the best to you. I’m just trying to learn as I am still intrigued by all of it.

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41 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

I’m just trying to learn as I am still intrigued by all of it.

What are you trying to learn and what is it exactly that intrigues you? And by "learn," do you mean to come to an understanding - only if it supports what you have already concluded -  or are you willing to open your mind to other possibilities?

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On 5/14/2022 at 12:42 PM, Fish153 said:

By the way, I did want to say that I’m not sure if what my Pastor said above is true. I still question. 1 Peter 1 seems to state there is a work of sanctification that is done BEFORE one believes and is cleansed by the blood of Jesus. One is sanctified UNTO believing and cleansing by the blood of Jesus.

 

This could very much align with Hebrews 6:4-6. There is an “awakening” work done on someone. They are “enlightened”, taste the Word and even experience the powers of the age to come. But this is done to bring one to a choice: Continue and believe, or draw back into unbelief.

 

1 John 5:16 seems to infer the “sin unto death” is something that can be observed being done. He tells us not to pray for such a person— perhaps because it is too late. They have crossed a line and can never repent again. It makes me wonder if it is public renouncing of Christ. We are saved by “confessing with our mouth” after “believing in our heart”. Could publicly renouncing faith in Christ be “the sin unto death”?

 

I don’t know but thought I would drop in to say I am still investigating every angle of deconversion. An older ex-Christian named Bruce in Ohio just threw me off his board and told me to f&$#$k off! I remembered that the Moderator here has much thicker skin, and is far more respectful to people. The man in Ohio immediately took offense when I quoted 1 John 2:19. But I wasn’t the one stating what it says in the verse— John the Apostle was!

 

Oh well, maybe I’ll check back again in a few months. All the best to you. I’m just trying to learn as I am still intrigued by all of it.

 

Most all Christians that go to the Lion's Den are good people. Just as they were in the time of 1st century Rome when they were sent to the lion's Den then torn apart.

 

I have been a confirmed atheist for many decades now and think that Christianity and all the other religions of world are no better than a joke, like Greek mythology.

 

But I consider myself a moral person since I generally follow the golden rule and some other morals of the New Testament such as the Good Samaritan moral and others. As to the old testament  I think little of it contains worthy morals to follow.

 

If a Christian reads Genesis and Noah's Ark of the old testament, and Revelations of the new testament, and also has at least a Junior high school education and knowledge of science, then that person would reject at least that part of the Bible as fantasy, or should face the self-recognition of stupidity.

 

btw what part of So Cal do you live in my friend? -- since I also live down here.

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Freshstart—-

I will not deny that I have made “conclusions”. However, I still find myself questioning. I really thought my Pastor had good explanations. But I read the Bible a lot, so if I should venture into Hebrews 6 or 10 (and other areas) it gets me to deeply considering what the verses mean.

It all goes back to when I was a young Christian. I had committed a couple of bad sins. I had been angry with God and said things to Him that I deeply regretted later.

 

I fell into a trap of thinking I had blasphemed the Holy Spirit. Then I read Hebrews 6: 4-6 and fell into deep fear. What if I had “fallen away” and it was “impossible” to renew me to repentance? The fear and dread became unbearable. This went on for years. But most of this time I was going to church and serving the Lord anyway.

 

I cried out to God, asking Him what an “apostate” was. I was sure that I was one. The thought of Jesus “rejecting” me would bring me to tears. Then one night a few of us were on Van Nuys Blvd in California “witnessing” to people. This guy approached us and began to laugh and sneer. He then said “I used to be into that S**T!!”

 

It shocked me to the core! And immediately I heard a still small voice say “Joe, THAT is an apostate”. The Holy Spirit was showing me a true apostate. To this guy the Gospel was S**T. He sneered and mocked it. To me, despite my deepest fear and dread, the Gospel was precious to me. Jesus was precious to me.

 

But then how could this person say “I USED TO BELIEVE”? Had he once TRULY believed? Or was his attitude now PROOF he never REALLY believed? Had he been “once enlightened” and then rejected Jesus? Was he ever REALLY saved?

 

I to this day am still confused. I believe one can be “born-again. But how could someone become un-born again? Once you are a child of God you are forever a child of God. How could a genuine child of God renounce Jesus and turn back forever? Is that possible?

 

I will fully admit I am not open to the possibility God does not exist because I firmly believe he does. But I am open to other possibilities regarding those who deconvert. I admit that I do not fully understand how someone can apostasize. So I am still learning and trying to understand it. I sincerely am.

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Pantheory—

I live in Sun Valley, near Burbank in California.

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4 hours ago, Fish153 said:

Pantheory—

I live in Sun Valley, near Burbank in California.

 

Great. I used to live in North Hollywood near there, close to Laurel Canyon and Saticoy. On Easter I was close by near  Burbank Blv. and Coldwater. I live in south L.A. now in the city of Cerritos.  Great weather this Spring, as  usual. :)  Maybe a little cooler than normal for the last few years.

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Pantheory--

Oh yeah, you were very close to where I live. I have also lived in Canoga Park, and Fountain Valley in Orange County too.

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There's no need to worry about offending me, Fish.

 

My comments concerned the spiritual fruit you displayed in your posts.

 

Do you understand what spiritual fruit are?

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Fish153 said:

Pantheory--

Oh yeah, you were very close to where I live. I have also lived in Canoga Park, and Fountain Valley in Orange County too.

 

Great, I also lived in Woodland Hills near Canoga Park, and my sister has lived in Fountain Valley for about 20 years now near Brookhurst and Warner. That's about 15 miles and about 25 minutes from where I live now in Cerritos. My wife left me years ago :) so from here I go down to Tijuana Mexico about every 6 weeks to visit the señoritas. It only takes about 2 hours from here down the 5. 

 

And I forgot to mention, my sister thinks I'm an outer space alien.

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Walter--

Please remember, I am human. I get very angry with myself at times for being so impatient, or uncaring towards others. A Christian should display mercy, love, patience, understanding, kindness, etc.

 

But there are times when we don't. Those are usually the times you hear "and you call yourself a Christian!?" When you say you are a Christian you are held to a higher bar. You are not "allowed" to be unkind. The problem is we are ALL sinners, and we fail.

 

For example: just yesterday we took our dogs to the beach. I was using GPS and it literally told me to make a left turn into the ocean. It said to turn left, when it meant right. It upset me enough that I literally gave my phone the finger and cussed.

 

I immediately told my wife I was sorry as she looked at me with disgust. Within moments I was repentant and sorry for yielding to such feelings.

 

Does that mean I am not a Christian? That I am not forgiven? Does that mean that I show no "fruits" of Christianity in my life? Is one post made on this board the measuring rod for Grace in my life? I don't think so Walter. People can be very harsh in their replies. They can be very judgmental. Though I try to be as gracious as possible, there will be posts where frustration appears, or I am responding in the same way I have been addressed.

 

It is impossible for me to be perfect. And especially when others are judging what "fruits" you are showing or not showing to their liking.

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