Is scriptural human "spirit", our consciousness and perception of reality?

[midniterider]

4 minutes ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

The only Free Will that matters is the Free Will Choice to Believe or not. Is anyone here claiming they couldn't call out to GOD right now if they felt like it?

 

Doesnt look like the free will choice is helping motivate us to worship your imaginary being.

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

All any of you have to do is simply ask yourself why Math functions ...why is there a virtual layer to begin with? That's it, just ask it.

[midniterider]

35 minutes ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

All any of you have to do is simply ask yourself why Math functions ...why is there a virtual layer to begin with? That's it, just ask it.

 

ooga booga

[Astreja]

3 hours ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

Is anyone here claiming they couldn't call out to GOD right now if they felt like it?

 

Me.  I seem to be congenitally and neurologically incapable of religious faith.  I simply cannot suspend disbelief enough to entertain the idea of gods actually existing, and I've been that way since childhood.  I could not call out to your god without simultaneously knowing that it was a sham, mere acting on my part, and from past experience I assure you that I would not feel that there was anything listening on the other end of the connection.

 

And I will not lie to myself and pretend to believe.  Not now.  Not ever.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@Reborn_Kingdom_Image, STOP with the oversized, bold font posts.  I'm not asking.  We can read what you have to say without your virtual shouting it at us.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

11 hours ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

Is anyone here claiming they couldn't call out to GOD right now if they felt like it?

Felt like it?  No.  Because I have come to understand that faith and religion are both overly controlled by emotional needs and desires.  In fact, religion and faith are both, in many ways, nothing more than emotions run rampant.  When you feel guilty there must be something god wants you to repent for... run to the altar.  When you feel afraid, there must be something you're not trusting god with... run to the altar.  When you feel worthless, remember god accepts you just the way you are... run to the altar.  When you feel accepted, remember god says you're a worthless sinner in need of his blood... run to the altar.  It's an emotional rollercoaster and a complete mind-fuck.  Many christians don't even realize that they are following the same emotional and psychological patterns that alcoholics and addicts follow: craving => use => high/release => guilt => repentance => repeat...

 

I was on this same rollercoaster for 30 years.  Followed the same pattern over and over.  Never understood why I would suddenly feel guilty when I'd done nothing to be ashamed of.  But I'd follow the cycle, follow the pattern, and a few hours/days/weeks later I'd be riding the high again...  until the crash, and I'd go even lower than I'd been before...

 

I don't need that kind of psychological manipulation in my life anymore.  I prefer the calm and serenity of a more contemplative mind.  So, no, even if the sudden urge to call out to jesus came upon me, I'd recognize it for the emotional masturbation that it is.  I might entertain the thought long enough to examine and analyse it to see what more I might learn about how the christian/addict brain works.   But that would be it.  After analysis that feeling would be put back in it's proper place and I'd go on about my business. 

 

Unless, of course, you were referring to a sudden urge to call out, "god damn it!".  Because, yeah, I act on that one pretty frequently. 

[Joshpantera]

The idea that everything is consciousness is philosophical idealism. The quantum mechanics mysteries (observer effect, etc., etc.) lead in that direction. Formerly, analytic idealism is the main thrust argument against physicalism right now. Here's part 1 of the 7 part course: 

 

 

And the logic of its conclusions actually bulldoze monotheism and christian thinking in the process.

 

The applied logic is as follows: 

 

1) Duality doesn't exist, reality is a non-dual consciousness or awareness.

2) No battle between light and dark, good or evil, when dualistic categories like 'this or that' is illusory. 

3) No literal god and satan, those are dualistic categories of thinking. There's only one non-dual consciousness interacting with itself. 

4) Nothing to worship, praise, or glorify aside from you yourself, because you are the non-dual transcendent reality itself, viewing yourself as if you are different. When you are not. 

5) No heaven or hell, obviously, which is nothing more than more examples of dualistic thinking, which, are false according to a non-dual and idealist worldview based on consciousness as primary. 

6) There's no one to convince of anything or convert to anything, because, again, everything is a manifestation of fundamental consciousness / awareness interacting with itself. Convert to what? Everything is as it's supposed to be. Nature works in this way. We are simply playing out the natural course of existence as it is, for what it is, and according to how it works. 

7) I'll rest as the 7th point.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

47 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

everything is a manifestation of fundamental consciousness / awareness interacting with itself.

This right here would be golden for a half-baked apologist such as RKI, because, twisted to fit christian theology, it would allow for god to retain his omnipotence and omniscience while still permitting us free will.  If individual consciousness is the universe experiencing itself, then, in an infinite universe filled with infinite possibilities, every possible choice and every potential outcome already exists (god's omni-shit); but I only experience the choices I make and the consequences thereof (free will).

 

Unfortunately, RKI has already asserted that god exists outside of time and space, which means he would not be able to operate within a universe that consists largely of infinite time and space.  So, while it might be a good apologetic for a different apologist, sadly RKI has already shot his own foot on this one.

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

8 hours ago, Astreja said:

 

Me.  I seem to be congenitally and neurologically incapable of religious faith.  I simply cannot suspend disbelief enough to entertain the idea of gods actually existing, and I've been that way since childhood.  I could not call out to your god without simultaneously knowing that it was a sham, mere acting on my part, and from past experience I assure you that I would not feel that there was anything listening on the other end of the connection.

 

And I will not lie to myself and pretend to believe.  Not now.  Not ever.

 

The question is not if you Believe or not ...the question is if you have the option to attempt to do so.

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Felt like it?  No.  Because I have come to understand that faith and religion are both overly controlled by emotional needs and desires.  In fact, religion and faith are both, in many ways, nothing more than emotions run rampant.  When you feel guilty there must be something god wants you to repent for... run to the alter.  When you feel afraid, there must be something you're not trusting god with... run to the alter.  When you feel worthless, remember god accepts you just the way you are... run to the alter.  When you feel accepted, remember god says you're a worthless sinner in need of his blood... run to the alter.  It's an emotional rollercoaster and a complete mind-fuck.  Many christians don't even realize that they are following the same emotional and psychological patterns that alcoholics and addicts follow: craving => use => high/release => guilt => repentance => repeat...

 

I was on this same rollercoaster for 30 years.  Followed the same pattern over and over.  Never understood why I would suddenly feel guilty when I'd done nothing to be ashamed of.  But I'd follow the cycle, follow the pattern, and a few hours/days/weeks later I'd be riding the high again...  until the crash, and I'd go even lower than I'd been before...

 

I don't need that kind of psychological manipulation in my life anymore.  I prefer the calm and serenity of a more contemplative mind.  So, no, even if the sudden urge to call out to jesus came upon me, I'd recognize it for the emotional masturbation that it is.  I might entertain the thought long enough to examine and analyse it to see what more I might learn about how the christian/addict brain works.   But that would be it.  After analysis that feeling would be put back in it's proper place and I'd go on about my business. 

 

Unless, of course, you were referring to a sudden urge to call out, "god damn it!".  Because, yeah, I act on that one pretty frequently. 

 

Ummm, yeah ...it's called conscience. It's part of consciousness ...another thing you don't want to think about. Yes, GOD does set things up for you to feel like running to Him ...that's the whole point.

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

The idea that everything is consciousness is philosophical idealism. The quantum mechanics mysteries (observer effect, etc., etc.) lead in that direction. Formerly, analytic idealism is the main thrust argument against physicalism right now. Here's part 1 of the 7 part course: 

 

 

And the logic of its conclusions actually bulldoze monotheism and christian thinking in the process.

 

The applied logic is as follows: 

 

1) Duality doesn't exist, reality is a non-dual consciousness or awareness.

2) No battle between light and dark, good or evil, when dualistic categories like 'this or that' is illusory. 

3) No literal god and satan, those are dualistic categories of thinking. There's only one non-dual consciousness interacting with itself. 

4) Nothing to worship, praise, or glorify aside from you yourself, because you are the non-dual transcendent reality itself, viewing yourself as if you are different. When you are not. 

5) No heaven or hell, obviously, which is nothing more than more examples of dualistic thinking, which, are false according to a non-dual and idealist worldview based on consciousness as primary. 

6) There's no one to convince of anything or convert to anything, because, again, everything is a manifestation of fundamental consciousness / awareness interacting with itself. Convert to what? Everything is as it's supposed to be. Nature works in this way. We are simply playing out the natural course of existence as it is, for what it is, and according to how it works. 

7) I'll rest as the 7th point.

 

 

 

Our physical brains are a playback device ...only. It is performing the will of the soul/spirit. i keep saying this place is virtual ...well, your spirit/soul is interacting with your brain with a non-local wave that doesn't collapse ...it's entanglement without the end state. If your virtual soul/spirit is in this test ...it gets Judged ...we are in the trial of Judgment. The Test.

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

27 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

This right here would be golden for a half-baked apologist such as RKI, because, twisted to fit christian theology, it would allow for god to retain his omnipotence and omniscience while still permitting us free will.  If individual consciousness is the universe experiencing itself, then, in an infinite universe filled with infinite possibilities, every possible choice and every potential outcome already exists (god's omni-shit); but I only experience the choices I make and the consequences thereof (free will).

 

Unfortunately, RKI has already asserted that god exists outside of time and space, which means he would not be able to operate within a universe that consists largely of infinite time and space.  So, while it might be a good apologetic for a different apologist, sadly RKI has already shot his own foot on this one.

 

GOD can't operate in what He Created? Yes, He knows every potential outcome ...it's weird how you understand and then give these weird excuses.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

 

The question is not if you Believe or not ...the question is if you have the option to attempt to do so.

And the answer is a resounding "NO!"  You may as well ask if we're capable of believing in Santa Claus again.  There is a point of no return on this kind of thing; and we are ex-christians because we reached it.  Just like that moment when Dorothy peeked behind the curtain, and there was no possible way she was ever going to be able to believe there was a Wizard again after seeing the midget back behind there.  So it is with belief--not just belief in god, belief in anything.  When someone betrays your trust, there's no going back to your trust in that person being not broken.  Once you caught your dad putting presents under the tree, or your mom slipping money under your pillow, there goes your belief in Santa and the Tooth Faery.  It's the same with discovering that religion is a lie.  There's simply no going back to believing it is true.  Once you know, you can't not know.  Remember the law of non-contradiction.

 

People do not choose what they believe in.  People simply believe in whatever makes sense at the time.  But once something no longer makes any sense, it's simply not possible to believe in it anymore, no matter how hard one might try or how badly one might want to.  Not a single one of us ever woke up one morning and thought, "you know, after I finish mowing the grass this morning, I think I'll just start denying the existence of god."  That's not how any of this works.  Most of us fought tooth and nail to hold on to our faith and beliefs; and our deconversions became long and brutal affairs, which you might know if you spent more time in our testimonials forum.  The hard truth is, though, our faith (ability to believe) is gone and there is no way for us to just will it back into existence like you presume.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

16 minutes ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

 

Ummm, yeah ...it's called conscience. It's part of consciousness ...another thing you don't want to think about. Yes, GOD does set things up for you to feel like running to Him ...that's the whole point.

No.  Conscience is when I run to the person I wronged and make amends like a responsible adult, not feeling guilty because some asshole god thinks I'm a piece of shit sinner.  You completely missed the whole point.

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

And the answer is a resounding "NO!"  You may as well ask if we're capable of believing in Santa Claus again.  There is a point of no return on this kind of thing; and we are ex-christians because we reached it.  Just like that moment when Dorothy peeked behind the curtain, and there was no possible way she was ever going to be able to believe there was a Wizard again after seeing the midget back behind there.  So it is with belief--not just belief in god, belief in anything.  When someone betrays your trust, there's no going back to your trust in that person being not broken.  Once you caught your dad putting presents under the tree, or your mom slipping money under your pillow, there goes your belief in Santa and the Tooth Faery.  It's the same with discovering that religion is a lie.  There's simply no going back to believing it is true.  Once you know, you can't not know.  Remember the law of non-contradiction.

 

People do not choose what they believe in.  People simply believe in whatever makes sense at the time.  But once something no longer makes any sense, it's simply not possible to believe in it anymore, no matter how hard one might try or how badly one might want to.  Not a single one of us ever woke up one morning and thought, "you know, after I finish mowing the grass this morning, I think I'll just start denying the existence of god."  That's not how any of this works.  Most of us fought tooth and nail to hold on to our faith and beliefs; and our deconversions became long and brutal affairs, which you might know if you spent more time in our testimonials forum.  The hard truth is, though, our faith (ability to believe) is gone and there is no way for us to just will it back into existence like you presume.

If you guys knew The Truth and rejected The Son's Blood ...you might be the only ones going to hell.

You don't get to say "no", you don't get to say the option isn't there. You know it is ...just because you are have a hardened heart doesn't mean the option isn't there. You don't want to Believe the option is there ...but it is.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 minutes ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

 

GOD can't operate in what He Created? Yes, He knows every potential outcome ...it's weird how you understand and then give these weird excuses.

You keep overlooking the law of non-contradiction.  god cannot exist outside the universe and inside the universe at the same time.  Any more than I can be in my house and at Wal-Mart at the same time.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 minutes ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

If you guys knew The Truth and rejected The Son's Blood ...you might be the only ones going to hell.

You don't get to say "no", you don't get to say the option isn't there. You know it is ...just because you are have a hardened heart doesn't mean the option isn't there. You don't want to Believe the option is there ...but it is.

And now we're back to personal attacks because another of your grand slam arguments has been refuted.  I'm starting to think I'm wasting my time on you.  You seem too stupid to follow along.

 

Not one of us rejected the truth.  NOT ONE.

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You keep overlooking the law of non-contradiction.  god cannot exist outside the universe and inside the universe at the same time.  Any more than I can be in my house and at Wal-Mart at the same time.

 

Oh, there is a man made law to tell you that, interesting. GOD causes physicality with wave collapse ...He is using The Word to tell waves to be physical.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

 

Oh, there is a man made law to tell you that, interesting. GOD causes physicality with wave collapse ...He is using The Word to tell waves to be physical.

There is a man made word to describe this phenomenon.  That word is "assertion."

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

And now we're back to personal attacks because another of your grand slam arguments has been refuted.  I'm starting to think I'm wasting my time on you.  You seem too stupid to follow along.

 

Not one of us rejected the truth.  NOT ONE.

 

It's The Truth ...of the situation we are in.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

31 minutes ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

 

It's The Truth ...of the situation we are in.

No.  It is a lie with which you comfort yourself and quell your own fears.  You're afraid that if true christians can lose their faith, then it can also happen to you.  So you tell yourself that we were never true christians.  You're afraid that maybe your faith isn't as strong as you think it is, so you tell yourself that we chose to give up our faith but you never will.  You're afraid that your entire worldview and the life you've built upon it would come crashing down if you were to discover even a single lie in the christian religion, so you tell yourself that we rejected christ and his precious blood and his holy forgiveness.  You're afraid of eternity in hell, so you tell yourself you must be one of The Elect.

 

But those are only the comforting lies you tell yourself.  I have told you the truth; and have no reason to lie to you anyway.  We have all been where you are.  None of us need to lie about it or about our own experiences.  You cling to a specific worldview with a specific agenda and it has been made incumbent upon you to achieve thst agenda by whatever means necessary.  That kind of mentality leads to all manner of immorality, including, as you've previously demonstrated with Walt, lying to yourself and others.

 

Accept it or don't, I don't care.  But there's the truth if it.

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

19 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No.  It is a lie with which you comfort yourself and quell your own fears.  You're afraid that if true christians can lose their faith, then it can also happen to you.  So you tell yourself that we were never true christians.  You're afraid that maybe your faith isn't as strong as you think it is, so you tell yourself that we chose to give up our faith but you never will.  You're afraid that your entire worldview and the life you've built upon it would come crashing down if you were to discover even a single lie in the christian religion, so you tell yourself that we rejected christ and his precious blood and his holy forgiveness.  You're afraid of eternity in hell, so you tell yourself you must be one of The Elect.

 

But those are only the comforting lies you tell yourself.  I have told you the truth; and have no reason to lie to you anyway.  We have all been where you are.  None of us need to lie about it or about our own experiences.  You cling to a specific worldview with a specific agenda and it has been made incumbent upon you to achieve thst agenda by whatever means necessary.  That kind of mentality leads to all manner of immorality, including, as you've previously demonstrated with Walt, lying to yourself and others.

 

Accept it or don't, I don't care.  But there's the truth if it.

i was one of you, i gave up and lived in sin for year after year ...i later found GOD in physics. i got Baptized for real this time ...not being dunked in a water tank ...by fire.

There is no going back for me because i'm on the other side of the veil now. i see what you can not, i'm yelling over to you guys hoping one of you might listen and Open The Door.

 

[Astreja]

1 hour ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

 

The question is not if you Believe or not ...the question is if you have the option to attempt to do so.

 

What part of "And I will not lie to myself and pretend to believe" are you too fucking stupid to understand?  You may be cool with telling lies, but I'm not.

[Astreja]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No.  Conscience is when I run to the person I wronged and make amends like a responsible adult, not feeling guilty because some asshole god thinks I'm a piece of shit sinner.  You completely missed the whole point.

 

This.  The world is full of believers who think that saying "Sor-ree!" to their imaginary friend gets them off the hook for things that they've done to real, live people in the real world.

 

As you said, TRP, responsible adults make amends for their misdeeds rather than declaring moral bankruptcy and hiding behind Jesus.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

42 minutes ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

i was one of you, i gave up and lived in sin for year after year ...i later found GOD in physics. i got Baptized for real this time ...not being dunked in a water tank ...by fire.

 

There is no going back for me because i'm on the other side of the veil now. i see what you can not, i'm yelling over to you guys hoping one of you might listen and Open The Door.

Hey, congratulations, dude.  I mean that sincerely.  If you have found something that works for you, then that's awesome.  I hope it will bring you peace and comfort for the rest of your life.

 

But what works for you isn't going to work for everybody.  What is truth for you is your truth; my truth might be different from yours, and Astreja's truth might be different from both ours.  We all tried it your way, too; and found it just didn't work for us.  Live and let live.  You'd be surprised at how much peace this will bring into your life.  And if you still feel like you want to save people from the flames, you can always look for volunteering opportunities with your local fire department.