Is scriptural human "spirit", our consciousness and perception of reality?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 hours ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

GOD doesn't Elect people that are going to turn away.

Have you considered that you're wasting your time here?  If we are god's elect, then we will all be saved when his spirit comes upon us in his perfect time.  If we are not god's elect, then nothing you say or do will convince us.  It's your time, of course, and you're welcome to stay and waste as much of it as you'd like; but it'd be more productive for you to just watch the grass grow or some paint drying.

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

4 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

By what process of logic do you know that the infinite fractal requires a designer?

 

Please answer the question, RKI.

 

 

33:53

question is what causes this beauty and

33:55

fractals where does it come from how do

33:57

we account for it how do we make sense

33:58

of it what causes the complexity in

34:01

fractals the fact that you can zoom in

34:02

on them they have these mathematical

34:03

properties they continue infinitely how

34:06

do we make sense of that well first of

34:08

all what causes the beauty in fractals

34:10

is it the man-made color scheme I picked

34:14

the colors I think they're pretty but

34:17

the fact is even if you take away the

34:19

color the shape is still beautiful even

34:24

in greyscale okay and I didn't pick the

34:26

shape nobody did no human did so it's

34:31

not that man-made color scheme that's

34:32

not it I think that adds to it the way a

34:34

little bit of salt will add bring out

34:36

the flavor of your food but it's not

34:38

it's not creating the beauty not at all

34:40

that the computer create the beauty well

34:42

we saw the computer plot this but the

34:43

fact is the computer just did quickly

34:46

what you could do manually we did the

34:48

first two points manually remember we

34:50

did make one and and a negative one and

34:53

we found whether or not they belong so

34:54

though this shape is built into numbers

34:56

the computer just helped us to reveal it

34:59

quickly you could theoretically do this

35:01

all by hand it would just take forever

35:03

and so this didn't create the beauty any

35:06

more than a Mike

35:07

creates the complexity of a microbe no

35:09

it just allows us to see it did people

35:13

make this well we came up with the

35:16

formula but what we've seen is that the

35:18

formula doesn't really matter too much

35:19

you can change the formula you still get

35:21

these wonderful shapes and frankly no

35:24

human being sat down said okay I'm gonna

35:26

make this shape where it's you know a

35:27

cardioid here and then I'm gonna put

35:28

some circles on it and I think I'll draw

35:30

an infinite number of what human beings

35:32

can't draw and then from number of

35:33

things human beings did not create this

35:34

we can't create infinite we discovered

35:37

it we did not create it and so it seems

35:41

to me the beauty is built into math the

35:45

beauty of fractals is built into the

35:47

math somehow well what causes the

35:50

complexity in fractals the fact that

35:51

they repeat and have these mathematical

35:53

properties what accounts for that did

35:54

the computer create it obviously not the

35:56

computer simply reveals it you could do

35:58

these you could plot these manually

36:00

theoretically that human beings create

36:03

it we can't create things that are

36:05

infinitely complex think about it

36:07

man-made machines you get down to some

36:09

level and then they're very they're very

36:10

crude and and simple we can't we can't

36:12

do that we can't create an infinite

36:15

number of minis built-in to the original

36:17

we could create several but not an

36:18

infinite number that's beyond us it's

36:21

not something that human beings created

36:22

did to formally create it well the

36:25

formula doesn't matter too much the

36:26

formula reveals it the formula sets the

36:30

defines what points belong and what and

36:34

what not but it's not like people picked

36:36

a formula to give that shape people pick

36:39

the formula and were surprised by that

36:41

shape very surprised so it seems to me

36:45

the complexity is somehow built into

36:46

math interesting there we have a shape

36:50

that's been built into numbers built

36:51

into math what is math aside from that

36:54

subject that's really hard and in school

36:56

math is the study of the relationship

36:58

between numbers that's really how you

37:00

could define it's how numbers relate to

37:01

each other what are numbers then and it

37:04

it's funny some of these things that we

37:05

use every day and we don't think about

37:08

how are they defined how would you

37:10

define a number I look through several

37:12

dictionaries and it's it's hard to get

37:14

an exact definition of that the best I

37:15

could find is a dictionary that said

37:17

numbers are a concept of quantity

37:19

I think that's the best definition I've

37:21

been able to see and so if you have you

37:24

know two oranges and two rocks and two

37:28

people and two galaxies what do they all

37:30

have in common tunas you you you

37:32

abstract away the physical thing and

37:34

what you're left with is a concept the

37:35

concept of quantity that's what numbers

37:38

are there are a concept now the thing

37:39

about concepts is they exist in the mind

37:42

concepts are something you think numbers

37:45

are something you think they are

37:46

abstract in nature not physical you

37:49

cannot stub your toe on the number two

37:51

you can stub your toe on something

37:54

physical that maybe there's two of them

37:55

but you can't stub your toe on tunas

37:57

right you can't do that because it's not

38:00

physical they exist in the mind

38:01

you can't trip over a law of mathematics

38:04

or pull one out of the refrigerator or

38:06

accidentally swallow one they're

38:07

non-physical they are abstract they

38:10

exist in the mind you say well I don't

38:12

know that that that number three is

38:13

physical right I see it there on the

38:14

screen that's the number three is it the

38:17

number three really because if so then I

38:19

just destroyed the number three oh wait

38:22

a minute that wasn't actually three

38:24

right because it's not like children

38:25

will not have to count one two four

38:27

because there's no more three I just

38:28

destroyed it

38:29

no we've we get a that was a

38:32

representation of three right numr it

38:35

was a numeral written numerals are not

38:37

numbers they are representations of

38:40

numbers and they can be written

38:40

different ways I could write three with

38:42

three vertical lines right like they do

38:44

in Roman numerals or I could use you

38:47

know Arabic or whatever those are just

38:49

representations of numbers but the

38:50

concept of three Ness is not something

38:51

you can write down because it's it's

38:54

mental it's it exists in the mind laws

38:57

of math are conceptual they exist in the

38:59

mind so these laws that we that we have

39:02

the multiplication you know the

39:04

commutative property of multiplication

39:05

or distributive property and so on these

39:07

are conceptual they exist in the mind

39:09

now they're very effective and in how we

39:12

get along on the universe they help us

39:13

but they exist in the mind

39:15

so where do laws of math come from then

39:17

there's an interesting question we use

39:19

these laws of math the Pythagorean

39:21

theorem and so on we use these laws

39:23

where do they come from

39:25

did laws of math evolve well I mean

39:29

we've seen something we've seen a shape

39:30

that's incredibly complex and beautiful

39:33

and in the natural world in the physical

39:35

world when we find something like that

39:36

an organism that's incredibly complex

39:38

and appears well designed the

39:41

secularists say well that evolved right

39:44

yeah we used to be very simple but then

39:46

it gradually became more complex over

39:47

time is that gonna work for math it

39:49

doesn't really work for biology but it

39:52

is it was it like the Pythagorean

39:54

theorem didn't used to be true but it

39:55

gradually well no did to two plus two

39:57

used to equal three but then it slowly

39:59

changed and now it equals four and now

40:02

it laws of math don't evolve do they

40:03

they've always been exactly as they are

40:05

now that we discovered them over time

40:07

but it's not like two plus two ever at

40:09

one point in time equals something other

40:10

than four they've always been the way

40:13

they are now there's no such thing as

40:15

evolutionary math everybody does math

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Okay, so sin entered the world through Adam.  You're a bit slow; but at least we're making progress.

 

So let's review.  Adam and Eve were motivated to eat the fruit by Pride, which is a sin.  Therefore Adam and Eve were motivated by sin before they ate the fruit. 

 

So, @Reborn_Kingdom_Image, when did sin enter the world?

 

Romans 5:12-14
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

54 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Have you considered that you're wasting your time here?  If we are god's elect, then we will all be saved when his spirit comes upon us in his perfect time.  If we are not god's elect, then nothing you say or do will convince us.  It's your time, of course, and you're welcome to stay and waste as much of it as you'd like; but it'd be more productive for you to just watch the grass grow or some paint drying.

 

Everything out of your mouth is directly from satan. Of course you say i'm wasting my time ...you don't like the Light showing you the truth.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 minutes ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

Romans 5:12-14

Okay.  When did sin enter the world?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 minutes ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

Everything out of your mouth is directly from satan.

Satan is nowhere near the wordsmith that I am.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@Reborn_Kingdom_Image, maybe ask your omniscient god when sin entered the world.  He'll tell you, I'm sure.

[walterpthefirst]

RKI,

 

Thank you for showing me the process of logic by which you know that the infinite fractal requires a designer.

 

Now explain it to me, starting with the first step...

 

 

33:53

question is what causes this beauty and

33:55

fractals where does it come from how do

 

 

What logic connects these two things?

 

Please explain.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

 

Everything out of your mouth is directly from satan. Of course you say i'm wasting my time ...you don't like the Light showing you the truth.

 

Matthew 10 : 14

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@Reborn_Kingdom_Image, can your holy spirit give you knowledge to determine the right answer to my question?

 

When did sin enter into the world?

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

@Reborn_Kingdom_Image, can your holy spirit give you knowledge to determine the right answer to my question?

 

When did sin enter into the world?

 

Yeah, with The Word ...you somehow can't read it:

Romans 5:12-14
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

[walterpthefirst]

Please explain the logic that connects these two things, RKI.

 

 

33:53

question is what causes this beauty and

33:55

fractals where does it come from how do

 

 

 

There are another one hundred and seventy eight steps of logic for you to explain, so the sooner you start, the sooner you'll finish.

 

 

Whenever you're ready.

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

7 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Please explain the logic that connects these two things, RKI.

 

 

33:53

question is what causes this beauty and

33:55

fractals where does it come from how do

 

 

 

There are another one hundred and seventy eight steps of logic for you to explain, so the sooner you start, the sooner you'll finish.

 

 

Whenever you're ready.

 

40:23

what are they profess it or not were

40:25

they created by people well we you know

40:28

Pythagoras created the Pythagorean

40:29

theorem really the triangles not add up

40:31

that way before Pythagoras well he just

40:34

discovered it and he wasn't the first by

40:35

the way but he was able to demonstrate

40:37

that it's very clever they're not

40:39

created by people laws of math worked

40:41

perfectly well before people were around

40:43

to describe them the way the planets

40:45

orbit the Sun they obey what are called

40:47

Kepler's laws and those are mathematical

40:48

the period of a planet squared is equal

40:50

to its distance from the Sun cubed in

40:53

the appropriate units and so now was

40:56

that was that the case before people

40:57

yeah a few days before people because

41:02

planets are mailing day for people are

41:04

made on day six yeah they but my point

41:06

is the planets orbited perfectly fine

41:08

before people came along and they

41:09

orbited according to laws of mathematics

41:11

and even the second wrist would concede

41:13

that so my point is people did not

41:16

create laws of math because math worked

41:18

perfectly well before people were around

41:20

to describe it did they come from the

41:22

universe that's a common belief

41:24

especially among secularists is that

41:26

well the universe behaves a certain way

41:28

and we call that math but I think that

41:32

is utterly indefensible because there

41:34

are things in mathematics that have no

41:39

analogy in the physical universe for

41:42

example the number of dimensions the

41:43

physical universe has three dimensions

41:44

of space one of time in

41:46

you can have any number of dimensions

41:48

you can have sixteen dimensions if you

41:49

like there's a thing called Hilbert

41:50

space that has infinite number of

41:52

dimensions that has no correspondence to

41:54

anything in the physical universe and

41:55

yet it makes sense there's rationality

41:58

to it

41:58

so my point is math goes beyond the

42:00

physical universe the physical universe

42:01

doesn't get infinitely small you get

42:03

down the level of atoms and then in

42:05

quarks and then there's kind of a

42:06

quantum fuzziness there but these shapes

42:08

go on forever

42:10

so math math didn't come from the

42:12

universe now it's interesting that math

42:14

can describe the universe but that's a

42:16

separate that's a separate question

42:17

that's a separate puzzle for secularists

42:19

obviously math doesn't come from the

42:21

universe because it goes beyond the

42:23

universe you can do things in math you

42:25

can't do in the physical universe you

42:27

can have infinities in math you can't

42:29

have those in the physical universe in

42:31

terms of infinite lengths and things

42:32

like that seems to me that math laws of

42:35

math stem from the mind of God and the

42:37

Christian worldview I can make sense of

42:39

numbers numbers are what God thinks of

42:41

quantities which is how they exist

42:43

before people you see and laws of math

42:46

they stem from the mind of God laws

42:48

mathematics is the way God thinks about

42:50

numbers

42:51

that's what math is if you want to study

42:53

it right you need to you need to know

42:55

something about God laws of mathematics

42:57

are conceptual they exist in the mind

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

31 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

@Reborn_Kingdom_Image

When did sin enter into the world?

 

27 minutes ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

 

Yeah, with The Word 

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  John 1

 

So, the Word, who was with god, and who was god, brought sin into the world.  I thought you said sin came into the world through Adam.  Nevertheless, you still have not answered the question. 

 

WHEN did sin enter into the world?

 

(There's a clue in the scripture I quoted)

 

 

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

6 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

 

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  John 1

 

So, the Word, who was with god, and who was god, brought sin into the world.  I thought you said sin came into the world through Adam.  Nevertheless, you still have not answered the question. 

 

WHEN did sin enter into the world?

 

(There's a clue in the scripture I quoted)

 

 

 

There was sin before Adam, but it didn't count because there wasn't LAW. THERE WAS DARKNESS BEFORE THE LIGHT.

Romans 5:12-14
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

There was sin before Adam

Okay, we're getting closer to an answer.  Before Adam there was sin.  But...

 

WHEN did sin enter into the world? 

 

At some point, between god calling his creation "very good" and Adam, there was a time when there was no sin ("very good").  Then, something happened and there was sin.  WHEN did that "something" happen?

 

Here is another clue for you:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

[florduh]

I'm going with head injury, and spam.

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Okay, we're getting closer to an answer.  Before Adam there was sin.  But...

 

WHEN did sin enter into the world? 

 

At some point, between god calling his creation "very good" and Adam, there was a time when there was no sin ("very good").  Then, something happened and there was sin.  WHEN did that "something" happen?

 

Here is another clue for you:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

 

Let's pretend for a second that "evil" in that verse wasn't the Hebrew word for ra' ...which basically means hard times ...what is your end goal with this? Do you want to say you are evil because GOD made you that way ...and you want to cry about going to the flames? That's not how this works, Free Will is at the core of this reality.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 minutes ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

That's not how this works, Free Will is at the core of this reality.

We will get to free will in due course.  First, please answer the question. 

 

When did sin enter into the world?

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

12 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

We will get to free will in due course.  First, please answer the question. 

 

When did sin enter into the world?

 

Do you want an exact date that satan started sin?

[walterpthefirst]

56 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Please explain the logic that connects these two things, RKI.

 

 

33:53

question is what causes this beauty and

33:55

fractals where does it come from how do

 

 

 

There are another one hundred and seventy eight steps of logic for you to explain, so the sooner you start, the sooner you'll finish.

 

 

Whenever you're ready.

 

Adding more steps of logic doesn't answer the question I put to you, RKI.

 

So, let's try again.

 

 

 

Please explain the logic that connects these two things, RKI.

 

33:53

question is what causes this beauty and

33:55

fractals where does it come from how do

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 minutes ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

 

Do you want an exact date that satan started sin?

If you can support it with scripture, sure.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 minutes ago, Reborn_Kingdom_Image said:

 

Do you want an exact date that satan started sin?

Also, you're confused.  Earlier you said sin entered the world through Adam.  Then you said sin entered the world through The Word.  Now you're suggesting that Satan did it.  We can sort this out later.  First let's establish the when, then we'll see about the how, who, and why.  Sound good?

[Reborn_Kingdom_Image]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Also, you're confused.  Earlier you said sin entered the world through Adam.  Then you said sin entered the world through The Word.  Now you're suggesting that Satan did it.  We can sort this out later.  First let's establish the when, then we'll see about the how, who, and why.  Sound good?

 

satan was the first to sin ...to rebel against The Will of GOD. he was in Heaven at the time. satan started tempting humans before Adam.