Are they going to fall like dominoes? (Political)

[TABA]

Corruption has been a problem in almost all the former Soviet republics, with the three Baltic republics being the shining exceptions.  Putin’s regime is SUSTAINED by parasitism, cronyism and corruption, so it’s hard to see how Russian control would help Ukraine.  It is precisely an orderly, European-style state in Ukraine that Putin fears.  He sure as hell is not going to build one there.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

27 minutes ago, TABA said:

Also worth noting that Desert Storm hostilities began in January and had ended by March 1991, and the first conflict of the Yugoslav breakup was the Croatian War of Independence which broke out at the end of March 1991.

You're right about that.  Initially, I was suspicious about Desert Storm because it seemed a bit too coincidental that we were picking a fight with Iraq (an oil-rich nation) at a time when a big Texas oil family was occupying the White House.  Bosnia later confirmed my suspicion that Kuwait had nothing to do with the First Gulf War.  So, when Bush Jr, Tony Blair, and the rest of they-all started talking up WMDs, Kurds, and Saddam, I pretty much knew they were full of shit.  But, we went to war anyway.  Hooray, us!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

23 minutes ago, TABA said:

Corruption has been a problem in almost all the former Soviet republics, with the three Baltic republics being the shining exceptions.  Putin’s regime is SUSTAINED by parasitism, cronyism and corruption, so it’s hard to see how Russian control would help Ukraine.  It is precisely an orderly, European-style state in Ukraine that Putin fears.  He sure as hell is not going to build one there.  

You're probably right.  I have to admit to a certain bias against when it comes to Ukrainians in particular.  Perhaps a subconscious projection of Ms. Ex-neck's negativity upon her fellow countrymen.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I expect China will wait to see how things play out.  It's no secret China has historically had eyes on Tibet, Mongolia, and Southeast Asia.  If Russia is seen to be given a free hand in Europe, we may well see Chinese boots on the ground not long after.

 

Umm... I don't know if you meant something else Prof, but the Chinese 'annexed' Tibet by force in 1950 / 51.

 

They've been there ever since.

 

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, TABA said:

Corruption has been a problem in almost all the former Soviet republics, with the three Baltic republics being the shining exceptions.  Putin’s regime is SUSTAINED by parasitism, cronyism and corruption, so it’s hard to see how Russian control would help Ukraine.  It is precisely an orderly, European-style state in Ukraine that Putin fears.  He sure as hell is not going to build one there.  

 

I would also like to point out that corruption was the norm, not just in the former Soviet republics, but also in the Soviet bloc nations.

 

So, that's Poland, East Germany, Albania, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria.

 

To what extent it was the norm in non-European, Soviet-aligned nations like Cuba, I couldn't say.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Umm... I don't know if you meant something else Prof, but the Chinese 'annexed' Tibet by force in 1950 / 51.

 

They've been there ever since.

 

 

Walter.

I put Tibet on the list intentionally planning to circle it back around to the broader point that what happens today might not matter tomorrow.  There is a lot of history between Tibet and China; and China is currently occupying Tibet. 

 

But, kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall; and that's what we are seeing right now.  The shifting of power.  There was a time when no Westerner would have ever believed that there would be any power other than Rome.  At that same time, few, if any, Easterners had ever heard of Caesar, Augustus, or Caligula.  We no longer think of Gaul as a Roman province, nor China as part of the Mongol empire.  Nor is French Indochina even a place anymore, unless you still have your grandfather's old globe.

 

In a few more decades, people will look back on America with the same nostalgia as they do the British empire.  Historians will praise what contributions we made to the world while denigrating our failures.  Hubris will most likely be the most accurate descriptive used.  But history will march on.

 

 

[◊ Krowb ◊]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

China as part of the Mongol empire.

For an interesting perspective, the Chinese are taught that was the Song Dynasty and China conquered Europe.  China has never been conquered . . . by their telling.

 

History is determined by those who teach it.

 

Also, China does not want Mongolia.  They are happy to exploit it economically without being responsible for the upkeep of its people.  - Due in part to Chinese education and in part to Mongolia's destitution, the Chinese do not believe there ever was a Mongol Empire, that is a slander by the West, it was all Chinese.

[★ Citsonga ★]

On 2/21/2022 at 3:48 PM, Fuego said:

I lost my job when manufacturing went overseas (NAFTA).

 

Actually, NAFTA was the North American Free Trade Agreement, which is a trade agreement that only includes the USA, Canada, & Mexico (i.e., the North American countries). NAFTA has nothing to do with any other country. NAFTA can be blamed for jobs going to Mexico, but jobs going to China, Taiwan, & other overseas countries were not because of NAFTA. NAFTA has nothing to do with them.

[walterpthefirst]

4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I put Tibet on the list intentionally planning to circle it back around to the broader point that what happens today might not matter tomorrow.  There is a lot of history between Tibet and China; and China is currently occupying Tibet. 

 

But, kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall; and that's what we are seeing right now.  The shifting of power.  There was a time when no Westerner would have ever believed that there would be any power other than Rome.  At that same time, few, if any, Easterners had ever heard of Caesar, Augustus, or Caligula.  We no longer think of Gaul as a Roman province, nor China as part of the Mongol empire.  Nor is French Indochina even a place anymore, unless you still have your grandfather's old globe.

 

In a few more decades, people will look back on America with the same nostalgia as they do the British empire.  Historians will praise what contributions we made to the world while denigrating our failures.  Hubris will most likely be the most accurate descriptive used.  But history will march on.

 

 

 

I agree... up to a point, Prof.

 

But the line I've been taking in this thread is that in the past there was always another power, located somewhere in the world that could rise up to supplant a currently dominating one.  But that is now changing.  Now we are in a global power paradigm where advanced technology in the hands of ruthless dictators will allow them to seize power and maintain it - without opposition from within or from anywhere else.

 

China is perfecting new and better ways of monitoring and controlling billions of people, stifling the possibility of resistance within it's borders by preventing any competing narrative from the West from entering into their news or social media.  The only truth that the Chinese people now know is what the state tells them.  The same is being tried, less successfully in Russia.  Most Russians now accept and believe that their tanks are advancing into the Ukraine today because of Western aggression.

 

So, when opposition to dictatorships fails, both internally and externally (because the West is fading) where and how can a new power arise to challenge the status quo?

 

The Soviet system buckled and collapsed from a combination of internal resistance (which began in Poland, with the Solidarity movement) , external pressure from NATO and gross mismanagement by it's leaders.  So, three separate factors combined to bring down the Red Empire.  If two of those factors (internal resistance and external pressure) become unlikely or impossible, then the only challenge to Russia and China's dominance will be caused by it's leaders.  

 

And in a system where free and fair elections never happen, the state controls the media and personal freedom is tightly monitored, who gets to replace these leaders?

 

Freely elected candidates who stand on a platform of unmonitored personal freedom for the masses, the rule of law and the accountability of leaders to their voters?

 

Really?

 

 

History may march on, but the old rule of one power being replaced by another may be coming to an end. 

 

Now that a global power hegemony is on the horizon there is decreasing space and opportunity for new powers to arise.  George Orwell got there first.  In the book 1984, every year a new and thinner dictionary was published for the people to use.  With each new iteration any words that could convey dangerous ideas were snipped out and ceased to exist.  Orwell understood that if you remove words such as freedom and liberty from people's vocabulary, then they will find it increasingly difficult to understand the concepts behind those words.  Eventually, the entire populace will only use and understand the words 'approved' by the state.  When that happens, resistance of any kind become impossible.

 

How close are China and Russia to achieving that goal?

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

You're assuming that the technology is a permanent factor, though, @walterpthefirst.  It may not be.  North Korea has already achieved your Orwellian dystopia; and they can't even keep the lights on at nighttime because of failing infrastructure and mismanagement (2 things Russia is, apparently, highly adept at).  Every kingdom that has risen had some new technology with which to supplant the old. 

 

Iron weapons were superior to bronze.  The English had a vast network of spies and intelligence that kept a tight grip on Ireland through Dublin Castle, until The Big Fella came along and basically invented modern terrorism.  The Nazis were able to effectively and efficiently wreak genocide upon European Jewry because they had specially designed tabulation machines (invented, patented, and produced by International Business Machines, also known as IBM) by which they could keep track of anyone.  That worked until it didn't. 

 

Hell, the Romans got to have an empire simply because they figured out how to instill discipline into their army where the Greeks and others had failed.  It doesn't take much to topple a kingdom, really; if you look at the way many of them have fallen.  And computer technology would be one of the last things I would trust.  A few months ago, several picture albums I had on Facebook simply vanished off of my profile.  Gone forever, as I no longer have the camera or disks they were originally saved on.  But cave drawings made before the dawn of time are still around.  That's how much trust one should put into modern technology; and that's not even getting into the whole SkyNet can of worms.

 

I'll be back...

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

Orwell understood that if you remove words such as freedom and liberty from people's vocabulary, then they will find it increasingly difficult to understand the concepts behind those words. 

Do you know that this very thing has already happened here in America?  We still have those words in our vocabulary, indeed they are imprinted on our collective national psyche; but they have been so overly tied to patriotism and jingo-fever that they have lost all meaning. 

 

People talk about "supporting our troops who are out there fighting for our freedom!"  But ask them to name one freedom we gained after 20 years of war in Afghanistan... god damn crickets, man.  Because there aren't any.  We may be an independent nation; but we are far from a free country.  The dystopian nightmare you fear is already here and has been for quite some time now. 

[walterpthefirst]

Exactly, Prof.

 

I believe that I covered the 'what happens when things go wrong' angle on Monday.

 

When mere men have such god-like power and they make mistakes, as all men do, who pays the price for their folly?  As I said, in the past, such mistakes only affected certain nations.  But now, the mistakes of powerful, but fallible men have global consequences.  I can't help but think that as technology advances the magnitude of our mistakes will one day become so great that we will all pay for them.

 

Ok, you're talking about the tech going bad and I was talking about the human decision making going bad, but the end results are pretty much the same.

 

Today things go can bad very quickly and very widely and many, if not all of us, will reap the consequences.

 

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Do you know that this very thing has already happened here in America?  We still have those words in our vocabulary, indeed they are imprinted on our collective national psyche; but they have been so overly tied to patriotism and jingo-fever that they have lost all meaning. 

 

People talk about "supporting our troops who are out there fighting for our freedom!"  But ask them to name one freedom we gained after 20 years of war in Afghanistan... god damn crickets, man.  Because there aren't any.  We may be an independent nation; but we are far from a free country.  The dystopian nightmare you fear is already here and has been for quite some time now. 

 

That's a fair point.

 

But saying that it's happening here and now in the US does little or nothing to stop the New World order of the Bear and the Dragon from becoming a reality.

 

The US needs to lead from the front against them.

 

Because if it doesn't, who will?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

stop the New World order of the Bear and the Dragon from becoming a reality.

Let me ask you this, Walt; because, for me, this is the elephant in the room:

 

Why do you think the Bear and the Dragon should be stopped?

[♦ Fuego ♦]

5 hours ago, Citsonga said:

NAFTA has nothing to do with them

 

And yet the US government under NAFTA provided years of schooling (retraining) for me as a result of my job going overseas. They didn't specify that the jobs had to go to Canada or Mexico. 

[alreadyGone]

13 hours ago, Citsonga said:

 

Actually, NAFTA was the North American Free Trade Agreement, which is a trade agreement that only includes the USA, Canada, & Mexico (i.e., the North American counties). NAFTA has nothing to do with any other country. NAFTA can be blamed for jobs going to Mexico, but jobs going to China, Taiwan, & other overseas countries were not because of NAFTA. NAFTA has nothing to do with them.

 

True, but NAFTA caused massive disruption to many otherwise successful U.S. manufacturers, such that they were no longer competitive. Asian and European competitors naturally took advantage of that over time.

And so there was job loss to other parts of the world as a direct consequence.

 

Every time government attempts to manage, regulate, and control what should be a free-market function, there is disruption and decay..  There is always a parasitic cost imposed. ALWAYS.

 

Think about it... you have a product, and I need the product. Having a third party imposed into that exchange, a third party which contributes nothing to either the creation of that product, or the generation of value needed to purchase that product, can only add unneeded cost.

 

Government creates nothing..

Before government can give anything to one person, it must first confiscate that same value from another person, plus overhead costs. And over time those overhead costs always grow.

 

There is only one valid function of government:  to protect the rights of the individual.

The power necessary to perform any other function results in infringement of those rights.

[alreadyGone]

7 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Let me ask you this, Walt; because, for me, this is the elephant in the room:

 

Why do you think the Bear and the Dragon should be stopped?

 

On our present trajectory, the west will degenerate into the same oppressive monster in time anyway.

There is no God and human beings are the most dangerous animals on earth.

 

The difference is Russia and China each have a long cultural history behind them which is in many aspects a binder holding their respective societies together. In the west we have no such cultural history to help keep the fabric of society tightly woven.

 

 

[alreadyGone]

12 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

...In a few more decades, people will look back on America with the same nostalgia as they do the British empire.  Historians will praise what contributions we made to the world while denigrating our failures.  Hubris will most likely be the most accurate descriptive used.  But history will march on.

 

 

You're an optimist.

[alreadyGone]

13 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

That's a fair point.

 

But saying that it's happening here and now in the US does little or nothing to stop the New World order of the Bear and the Dragon from becoming a reality.

 

The US needs to lead from the front against them.

 

Because if it doesn't, who will?

 

That day is past. We have no leaders.

Today we have only power-grabbing oligarchs.

 

Consider just a few days ago when VP Harris stood before heads of state in Europe, addressing them in a formal speech with "Listen guys..." and went on to explain to them that war in Europe was a possibility, and that war in Europe would be a bad thing for them.  As Europeans, I'm sure it made an impression.

 

As someone said, in the end people get the government they deserve.

 

The geopolitical and military power of the U.S. has always been pinned to the status of the dollar as the world's reserve currency.

The end of that status is now on the near horizon. Most of the rest of the planet understands that the dollar is inflated to nil value, even if most Americans do not. When the dollar's reserve currency status dies, concomitant with world petroleum markets moving on to other means of exchange, that will be the end of America's position as world policeman.

 

[walterpthefirst]

Let me ask you this, Walt; because, for me, this is the elephant in the room:

Why do you think the Bear and the Dragon should be stopped?

 

 

 

Ok, a direct question.  I can respect that, Prof.   In fact, I'll give you a half a dozen reasons, in no particular order.

 

 

1.  The Totally Selfish Reason Why.

 

Because, as I outlined earlier in this thread, I would very much like to see out my autumn years, living in a nation that isn't a puppet democracy.  One that doesn't kowtow to a totalitarian dictatorship and which has it's domestic policies decided for it in Beijing or Moscow.  Having said that, I know full well that the usual riposte to this would be something along the lines of... 'So it's ok for the British to kowtow to Washington, is it?' 

 

To which I'd answer, Yes.  If it's a choice of the lesser of two evils, then I'll be pragmatic and go with the lesser.  Unless someone here can successfully argue that the US represents a greater moral and existential evil than Russia or China?

 

 

2.  The Debt of Honour Reason Why.

 

History records that the Greatest Generation stepped up to the imminent threat of the Axis powers and willingly laid down their lives to defeat those totalitarian dictatorships.  We therefore owe them for every freedom that we have enjoyed since the end of WW2.  If we aren't prepared to do the same or similar now, then what was the point of their sacrifice?   Or are we so jaded and cynical as to believe that our forefathers were hopelessly naïve?

 

 

3.  The Defence of Democracy Reason Why.

 

The Economist magazine began it's Democracy Index in 2006.  https://www.eiu.com/n/campaigns/democracy-index-2021/

According to their stats, of 167 countries and territories, only 21 can be considered full democracies.  There are 59 authoritarian regimes. The index involves a detailed scoring system that attempts to measure global democratic health.  The world average is lower for 2021 than for any time since the index began.  Democracy is in retreat across the world.  That's official. 

 

So, to quote the old quote, 'Use it or lose it.'  If we don't value what we've got, even if it's flawed and needs fixing, then it's wasted upon us.  We might as well give in now.

 

 

4.  The More Rapid End of the Biosphere Reason Why.

 

The gangster mentality of authoritarian dictators revolves around the three P's.  Power, Profit and Prestige.  If something doesn't gain them any of the three P's then it doesn't reach their threshold of interest.  So, any projects or schemes to regreen the planet, save the oceans and promote ecological diversity that require or rely upon government permission or involvement will face an even greater uphill struggle to fulfil their aims. 

 

Dictators do not see any value in healthy rainforests for their own sake.  Ditto healthy coral reefs or healthy boreal forests.  These are just resources to be exploited in pursuit of profit and power.  So, why invest in renewable resources or nuclear fusion when fossil fuels are just there for the taking?  Global warming?  What's that?  If it doesn't bring short-term power, profit or prestige, then just kick the can down the road and forget about it.

 

At least with democracies and democratically-leaning governments there is a slim chance that environmental damage can slowed down or even halted.  With global dictatorships there are just two chances - slim or fat.

 

 

5.  The Freedom to Believe Reason Why.

 

Surprisingly, given my track record of opposing the excesses of religion in this forum, I still think that everyone should have the right to their own religious beliefs.  But what about freedom of religious belief in China and Russia?

 

https://www.persecution.org/2020/10/02/chinas-war-religion/  In China the only permitted 'religion' is the worship of the state.  

 

https://www.frc.org/updatearticle/20200916/russia-religion  The Russian Orthodox church has become an organ of the state and the Kremlin wants to exert the same kind of iron control over all other religions. 

 

We atheists, agnostics and sceptics may not agree with the religious people who visit this forum, but at least here we accord them the right to believe what they want.  Not so in Russia and China.

 

 

6.  The Science for Science's Sake Reason Why.

 

Once again we go back to the guiding principles of dictators, the ones that really underlie the veneer of their declared politics.  Power, Profit and Prestige.  Under these regimes science bends to the will of the state and if it can't deliver any of the three P's, then what's the point of it?  It's just a waste of time and money. 

 

So, multi-decade, mega-money projects like the Large Hadron Collider, the ITER (International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor) fusion project and the LIGO gravitational wave telescope would be side-lined or shut down as superfluous.  The money can be better spent elsewhere.  

 

At least under democratic or democratically-leaning governments there is a chance that pure science for the sake of knowledge itself won't be be nixed because there's no way such knowledge could be used to serve the interests of the state.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Ok, a direct question.  I can respect that, Prof.   In fact, I'll give you a half a dozen reasons, in no particular order.

 

 1.  The Totally Selfish Reason Why.

 

 Because, as I outlined earlier in this thread, I would very much like to see out my autumn years, living in a nation that isn't a puppet democracy.  One that doesn't kowtow to a totalitarian dictatorship and which has it's domestic policies decided for it in Beijing or Moscow.  Having said that, I know full well that the usual riposte to this would be something along the lines of... 'So it's ok for the British to kowtow to Washington, is it?' 

 

To which I'd answer, Yes.  If it's a choice of the lesser of two evils, then I'll be pragmatic and go with the lesser.  Unless someone here can successfully argue that the US represents a greater moral and existential evil than Russia or China?

_____________________

 Has America not built a reputation on setting up puppet regimes all over the world, even deposing legitimate democracies in order to do so?  Did the British Empire not do the same during its day in the sun?  Sometimes a taste of your own medicine is the best cure for what ails you.  It also remains to be seen if America truly is the lesser of two evils, or just "the devil you know."

 

2.  The Debt of Honour Reason Why.

 

 History records that the Greatest Generation stepped up to the imminent threat of the Axis powers and willingly laid down their lives to defeat those totalitarian dictatorships.  We therefore owe them for every freedom that we have enjoyed since the end of WW2.  If we aren't prepared to do the same or similar now, then what was the point of their sacrifice?   Or are we so jaded and cynical as to believe that our forefathers were hopelessly naïve?

_______________________

 We won’t even wear masks at Walmart to protect our children, elderly, and immunocompromised.  Do you really think we’re going to go fight and die for the greater good?  Not without Washington provide us with a more patriotic lie than that.  

 

 The hard truth is, we’re not really that great as a people.  Our country was built on slavery and genocide and there is actual legislation under consideration right now to ban the teaching of our own history, if it paints us in a negative light.  

 

We had to be practically dragged, kicking and screaming, into the First World War because of our isolationist mentality.  And we barely got there in time to kick any Boche ass.

 

That same isolationism kept us out of the Second World War from ’39 to ’42 (technically December ’41), by which time, y’all Brits had done had your Big Skeedaddle at Dunkirk, which also put France effectively out of the war; and as of 22 June 1941, Operation Barbarossa commenced and Russia was backed against the ropes  And still that “greatest generation” sat on its hands with its isolationism and individualism.  Had Japan not attacked Pear Harbor in December of ’41, America may well have left Europe to its own demise.

 

 Did their sluggish and eventual sacrifice mean anything for the future of Democracy?  Considering your own stance on the retreat of Democracy across the globe, I’d have to wonder myself.

 

3.  The Defence of Democracy Reason Why.

 

The Economist magazine began it's Democracy Index in 2006.  https://www.eiu.com/n/campaigns/democracy-index-2021/

 

According to their stats, of 167 countries and territories, only 21 can be considered full democracies.  There are 59 authoritarian regimes. The index involves a detailed scoring system that attempts to measure global democratic health.  The world average is lower for 2021 than for any time since the index began.  Democracy is in retreat across the world.  That's official. 

 

 So, to quote the old quote, 'Use it or lose it.'  If we don't value what we've got, even if it's flawed and needs fixing, then it's wasted upon us.  We might as well give in now.

_____________________

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/us-threat-democracy-russia-china-global-poll

 

 http://en.people.cn/n3/2021/0924/c90000-9900582.html

 

 Are you sure that the biggest threat to democracy should be the one protecting it?  Seems like a fox/henhouse situation to me.  

 

But, democracy is another word that has lost all meaning for Americans.  Sure, we preach democracy, fight for democracy, instill democracy all over the world.  But our “democracy” is filibusters, electoral colleges, and corporations who buy the vote and the politicians with it.  We have no idea what democracy means or how valuable it is.  It’s just an awesome word we like to hear it on the 4th of July along with the fireworks and the barbecue and the Miss Teen beauty contest sponsored by JP’s Plumbing and Heating.

 

4.  The More Rapid End of the Biosphere Reason Why.

 

The gangster mentality of authoritarian dictators revolves around the three P's.  Power, Profit and Prestige.  If something doesn't gain them any of the three P's then it doesn't reach their threshold of interest.  So, any projects or schemes to regreen the planet, save the oceans and promote ecological diversity that require or rely upon government permission or involvement will face an even greater uphill struggle to fulfil their aims. 

 

 Dictators do not see any value in healthy rainforests for their own sake.  Ditto healthy coral reefs or healthy boreal forests.  These are just resources to be exploited in pursuit of profit and power.  So, why invest in renewable resources or nuclear fusion when fossil fuels are just there for the taking?  Global warming?  What's that?  If it doesn't bring short-term power, profit or prestige, then just kick the can down the road and forget about it.

 

 At least with democracies and democratically-leaning governments there is a slim chance that environmental damage can slowed down or even halted.  With global dictatorships there are just two chances - slim or fat.

______________________

 On this point, I’d have to accuse global corporatism before pointing a finger at any particular political or economic system.  Even in “democracies” such as America and Britain, legislation is passed by the dollar and pound much more so than by the will of the people or the greater good.   Granted, socialist democracies, such as the Nordics, tend to do a much better job of fighting for the environment and the future; but there’s no short term profit in it for the guys grinding the money wheel anywhere, whether it be Petrograd, Beijing, or Helsinki. 

 

5.  The Freedom to Believe Reason Why.

 

 Surprisingly, given my track record of opposing the excesses of religion in this forum, I still think that everyone should have the right to their own religious beliefs.  But what about freedom of religious belief in China and Russia?

 

https://www.persecution.org/2020/10/02/chinas-war-religion/ In China the only permitted 'religion' is the worship of the state.  

 

https://www.frc.org/updatearticle/20200916/russia-religion The Russian Orthodox church has become an organ of the state and the Kremlin wants to exert the same kind of iron control over all other religions. 

 

 We atheists, agnostics and sceptics may not agree with the religious people who visit this forum, but at least here we accord them the right to believe what they want.  Not so in Russia and China.

_______________________

I’m not sure I’m going to buy the lie on this one.  I mentioned in my testimony here that, growing up in the church, I heard all manner of horror stories about christian persecution in the Soviet Union.  Then I married a Ukrainian and found out none of those things actually happened.  At least, not in Ukraine.  Perhaps Putin’s new and improved Soviet Bloc will be different; but Karl Marx himself said that religion is the opiate of the masses.  And the idea of religion as useful to the rulers has been around since Lucia’s Annaeus Seneca who lived around the same time jesus didn’t.

 

 6.  The Science for Science's Sake Reason Why.

 

 Once again we go back to the guiding principles of dictators, the ones that really underlie the veneer of their declared politics.  Power, Profit and Prestige.  Under these regimes science bends to the will of the state and if it can't deliver any of the three P's, then what's the point of it?  It's just a waste of time and money. 

 

 So, multi-decade, mega-money projects like the Large Hadron Collider, the ITER (International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor) fusion project and the LIGO gravitational wave telescope would be side-lined or shut down as superfluous.  The money can be better spent elsewhere.  

 

 At least under democratic or democratically-leaning governments there is a chance that pure science for the sake of knowledge itself won't be be nixed because there's no way such knowledge could be used to serve the interests of the state.

________________________

 I’m not really sure where you’re coming from here, regarding China, at least.  China is one of the most scientifically advanced nations in the world right now.  Even here in America, the biological sciences are slap full of Chinese immigrants or their offspring.  

 

 Moreover, “useful” science has always been preferred over the “just-learning-stuff” variety, irrespective of dictators, presidents, or Namibian princes who really just want to share their wealth with you if you’ll just provide your bank info…  Hell, in the 2 years spent in academic research here in America, I saw 4 different PIs shut down their labs and go into industry for lack of funding.  

 

 I agree that science is crucial to the survival of our planet and species; bit it is always going to be a struggle to get funding for it, just like it is for the arts, regardless of who’s in power.

 

 Thank you.

 

You’re welcome.

 

Walter.

 

 TRP

 

 

@walterpthefirst

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

I don't think we are ever going to find much common ground on this issue, Prof.

 

But as someone descended from people who had to be dug out of bombed-out buildings (courtesy of the Luftwaffe) when the dominoes I mentioned start to fall, geographically speaking I'll be a helluva lot closer to their tanks, their planes and their bombs than you will be.

 

The mainland US has never experienced an actual (modern) war on it's territory, has it?

 

(Edit. 

I qualified that last sentence in case the black powder and horseback war between the Union and the Confederacy could be considered as 'modern'.)

 

So, thank you for the consideration.

 

 

Walter. 

[TABA]

I’m definitely with Walter on this one.  No more to be said.  

[webmdave]

12 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

The mainland US has never experienced an actual war on it's territory, has it?

 

 

• King George's War (1744-1748)
• French and Indian War (1754 to 1763)
• The Revolutionary War (1775-1783)
• War of 1812 (1812-1815)
• Mexican - American War (1846-1848)
• American Civil War (1861–1865)

Just saying...

[webmdave]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:44 AM, walterpthefirst said:

Where does it end?

 

Based on all of known human history, my guess it will finally end around the time our species becomes extinct.