Moral Dilemmas

[pantheory]

14 hours ago, Aibao said:

Thank you for your answer - I appreciate it.

 

I heard the argument that even if plants were created before the sun according to Genesis, they had a different kind of light, because God separated light from darkness, so not only the sun gives light - and that's the apologists explain everything. Maybe I should have thought about how to refute their apologetic explanations? Yes, it's junior high school level, and I still remain the idiot who gets nothing.

 

However, I appreciate you trying to explain this religion to me, and thank you for your efforts. I'm still wondering and finally started watching more evolution movies - so I hope I'm moving forward.

 

Hi again Albao,

 

One could  come up with many impossible fictional explanations to justify Genesis, but It's just a fictional story written about 1,400 BC, when nothing could contradict it. I don't care what the fictional story is,  one could always come up with fictional explanations attempting to overcome how ridiculous it is compared to known reality. 

 

Also, sorry I was long-winded in my last posting,  guess I was just trying to beat your posting-length record but failed  

 

Us being Ex-Christians, most members and I once believed religious stupidity also.

 

Cheers,  pantheory

 

[Wertbag]

19 hours ago, Aibao said:

But I am open to any arguments.

First off, ignore the bible, its an anicent book of myths written by men and does not lead to truth or answers.  

 

Arguments against religion are numerous, but the few biggest ones:

- The problem of suffering - If God was all-loving and all-powerful, then He could stop suffering and would want to.  Suffering exists, therefore He cannot be both of those things.

- The problem of instruction - If God wants us to know Him, and wants us to know His perfect laws, then how is the best way to spread that message to the world?  Teaching a bunch of bronze age people via revelation to write multiple books, in many languages, two thousand years before the invention of the printing press?  Would you give your message to a small group in the middle east, or would you spread it far and wide?

- The problem of divine hiddenness - God isn't here, doesn't communicate, doesn't answer prayer, doesn't send His angels and can't be shown to exist.  If He actually wanted us to know Him, then we would.  Either He can't (is not all-powerful), won't (which flies in the face of the claims He has done so many times), doesn't want to (so doesn't want a relationship with us) or just straight up doesn't exist.

- The problem of Christianities lack of unity - It is claimed that we have God's perfect unchanging word, that the holy spirit leads His people and that we have HIs perfect moral code written on our hearts.  Yet when you look at Christianity there is fighting on every question, thousands of denominations, dozens of bibles (which differ in which books are considered inspired), splinter religions (Mormons, JW's etc), no agreement on even the most fundimental questions (which bible stories are literal real events, which are moral stories and which are true but hyperbole for example).  We have the great schism breaking Catholics with Orthodox, we have the reformation breaking Protestant from Catholic, and then we have centuries of some of the most bloody warfare in history over who has read the bible right.  From that mess we are meant to think these guys have the "truth"?  All lead by the holy spirit and coming to completely different answers.

 

So don't worry about the side questions when the obvious elephant in the room, that they can't show God exists at all, can't be explained.  Sure Christians can say evolution or the big bang where tools God used, so those things aren't convincing either way, but to get to that conclusion they need to show God exists, and they haven't yet been able to jump that hurdle.

[Joshpantera]

On 5/20/2022 at 4:38 PM, TABA said:

Guess what?  I don’t know if Jesus was a mythical or historical figure either!  But it doesn’t matter:  I’m satisfied that the god of the Bible doesn’t exist and that Jesus didn’t rise from the dead.  And on those points you will find Ehrman and Carrier in agreement.  To what extent Jesus was a real figure is fascinating and will surely never be resolved, but it has nothing to do with whether Christianity is true.  
 

 

Yes, @Aibao it has zero to do with christianity being true.

 

A ) Bart Ehrman = Christianity not true. 

 

Ehrman's idea of Jesus is an especially sad one. Some guy who was so unknown at the time, aside from a few close followers, lived a mundane life and then died! After which his followers began to mythologize his life and it the myths spread around. Most of which are completely untrue. And this unknown Jesus is unprovable and lost to time. At the end you still don't know for sure if there really was or was not the Jesus of Nazareth from the myths, you have assumptions and that's it. 

 

B ) Richard Carrier = Christianity not true. 

 

Carrier's idea of Jesus is taken from Earl Doherty's research into a Gnostic oriented "Cosmic Jesus," the likes of similar mythical god-men of the time period. The idea is that the myths started out as myths and then later followers decided to put more of earthly storyline to the astral myths. All of which are completely untrue and never actually happened. Jesus is unknown to history in this view because the story was never historical to begin with. These are assumptions as well, because, the truth is that it's lost to time and no one can know for sure whether it's true or not. 

 

Now what? 

 

Both parties, regardless of opinions, agree that the myths aren't literally true and Christianity isn't what believers assume it to be. It's only the believers that think it's true. The apologists who are invested in digging their heels in. For everyone else, it's no different than any other religion out there. And that's just it, it's the same as anything else that comes without hard evidence to back it up and lacks in certainty. 

 

Regardless of whether or not any small and insignificant part of the Jesus myth was true, Christianity is false. 

 

Why would there be such scant evidence for Ehrman to try and sift through, if the believer position is true? There's no hint at fame or wide spread notoriety through the strictly academic lens of Ehrman. That proves the believer position wrong just on that point alone. The claim is wide spread notoriety and famous among contemporaries. None of which is true via history. 

 

The bibles claims are plainly wrong. 

 

Ehrman and Carrier can go either way, but in each case it means nothing towards validating the claims of the bible and christianity. It just outlines how invalid the bible actually is. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Aibio, it occured to me while reading the original post above, that you grew up with a father that "programed" you to think in black or white, all or none, good or bad thinking, and that "bad" gets punished severely.  THAT IS NOT HEALTHY LIFE!  We are humans with brains to think and figure things out for ourselves.  Not everything can be put into neat catagories, and who gets to decide which catagory they go into?  Especially when young we need some guidelines and direction, but not be scared to death and made to feel bad about ourselves.

 

But the made up narcissistic character called "god" in the bible, comes along and tells us (in the garden of Eden) that we are stupid, and wicked because we want to be wise like him.  And that our wellbeing is dependent upon keeping him happy, and obeying him, or there will be dire consequences.   Can you see how sly, conniving people came up with this concept to scare people into being obedient?  And how your father was doing something similar with you?  Scaring you into submission!  (Which he probably learned as a child) (which was likely influenced by religion??)   THANK GOODNESS YOU FINALLY STOOD UP TO HIM!!  He respected your strength and backed off.  Which shows his insecure black/white thinking.  You are either in control, or not.  That is NOT how civilized people live.  Civilized people respect each other, communicate and reason things out.   

 

If you were a bad human being you might have killed your father.  But you didn't.  You simply protected yourself, and later cared for him when he needed it.  THAT IS NOT THE ACTION OF A BAD PERSON!!  It is the action of a person who wants to do good and is working very hard to do so.  By the way, SIN is not a terrible thing within itself.  It literally means "missing the mark" in archery which was prevelant back in the day.   If you miss the mark, it isn't terrible, you just need more practice.   You have a good heart and a well meaning mind and can get better with practice.  If you want one "truth" to take with you from the bible, to help guide you along the way, remember to "love your neighbor as yourself".  That implies you love yourself, and also care about others.  That is an evidence based concept that was recognized ages before the bible was written.

 

Try to get away from looking at the small details of religion.  That can last a lifetime.  If you can stand back and take a look at the big picture of the bible, I think you will see how sly humans took ancient concepts of gods, narrowed it down to one god, and used fear to demean and control the masses of people, like your father learned and used on you.  And the myths and fables evolved through the ages, and the sly catholic church finally came up with the new testament, and passed on the fear in a disguised fashion.  But even they ignored the "love thy neighbor" part for centuries.  And with many "liberal" churches today the fear is disguised with a veneer of "love".  We love you, and god loves you, but if you don't do as we say, you will go to hell.  (and, by the way, hell was one of those things that evolved into the religion over time)

 

But you have a problem other than a lack of knowledge of religion.  You got a HUGE dose of fear, demeaning, and toxic psychological conditioning (programming) fed to you as a child that keeps you from trusting your own thinking.  YOU CAN DEPROGRAM YOURSELF.  I highly suggest you find a professional to help you do it.  If you trust no one locally, try -  recoveringfromreligion.org

 

I AM GLAD TO SEE YOU ARE HANGING IN THERE!

[◊ Weezer ◊]

7 hours ago, Weezer said:

 

But you have a problem other than a lack of knowledge of religion.  You got a HUGE dose of fear, demeaning, and toxic psychological conditioning (programming) fed to you as a child that keeps you from trusting your own thinking.  YOU CAN DEPROGRAM YOURSELF.  I highly suggest you find a professional to help you do it.  If you trust no one locally, try -  recoveringfromreligion.org

 

I AM GLAD TO SEE YOU ARE HANGING IN THERE!

 

I am repeating this because I think your lack of trust in yourself is preventing you from making decisions and finding your own direction in life.  In other words, I believe your obsession with the religion is keeping your mind off the deeper problems that are getting in the way of your life.   I believe it is perfectly okay to study and and talk to others to get information and opinions about what is going on, and it is okay to continue if that is what you need at this point, but at some point, I believe what will permit you to relax and carry on with life is to believe in yourself.   

 

Look at nature.  The concern within nature is continuing life.  In my opinion you are a natural human being who is concerned about continuing life for yourself and others.  That is all any human can do, and believe me, after 80 years of living and 35 years of working professionally with people from all walks of life, I have found NO perfect humans.   And another thing I learned is that those who proclaim to have all the answers are the ones to fear the most.  They are all imperfect humans just like you and I. 

 

If in doubt about something these days, the question I ask myself is, "does this promote continuing life on the planet?"  That is what it is all about in my way of thinking.  Try appying that to the concepts in the bible.  And to any idealogy.  Don't get bogged down in the small details.

[Aibao]

On 5/23/2022 at 4:52 AM, pantheory said:

 

Hi again Albao,

 

One could  come up with many impossible fictional explanations to justify Genesis, but It's just a fictional story written about 1,400 BC, when nothing could contradict it. I don't care what the fictional story is,  one could always come up with fictional explanations attempting to overcome how ridiculous it is compared to known reality. 

 

Also, sorry I was long-winded in my last posting,  guess I was just trying to beat your posting-length record but failed  

 

Us being Ex-Christians, most members and I once believed religious stupidity also.

 

Cheers,  pantheory

 

Thanks for the answer - don't apologize, I really appreciate it and your comment brought me to an interesting topic of Jewish mythology.

[Aibao]

Thank you all for your answer

[walterpthefirst]

On 5/23/2022 at 12:48 AM, Aibao said:

Walter - if you can do something about my idiotic thinking then give me that argument. I am afraid that I have low skills in critical thinking (I was gullible since I was a child and although I understood the differences between a fiction / fairy tale and the real world, since I remember I was a believer: first a Catholic, then a Pentecostal). So I learned to explain various illogical things for unbelieving people. But I have become acquainted with real apologetics quite recently, searching the arguments of Christians and atheists for some conclusions. I'm stuck. I am watching and reading material about evolution right now. However, even there, I found a statement that evolution does not exclude faith in God and may be compatible with religion (it is from the Polish channel, but the person in charge seems to be a non-believer).

 

Later I came across the term "theistic evolution" - I am slowly becoming discouraged from reading about evolution as I encounter more and more problems until I end up again that evolution can prove God. Especially since creationists even "appropriate" the Big Bang theory to confirm that God started the Big Bang.

 

So if you want to give me an argument to refute Christianity and it's an evolution, I have a lot of problems and questions for that. If this is to be an argument from the second coming of Jesus, I also have an explanation.

 

But I am open to any arguments. I also need time to organize everything in my head (recently it's hard for me to even concentrate, because I have other problems besides religious ones), so if you have patience with me, give me this argument. I am very curious, and you may end my religious torments.

 

I'm sorry Aibao.  It looks like I missed your reply.

 

Here is the argument.  It is broken down into 7 steps.  In this argument I treat what the bible says as real and true.  You do not have to know or be sure that the bible is real and true.  All you have to do is check the logic of each step.  That if one step is real and true, then the next step must also be real and true. Please start at 1 and go to the end or as far as you can.  I will help you out if you get stuck.

 

 

 

1.

If hell is real, then sin is also real.  This is because unforgiven sin causes us to go to hell.  The reality of hell demands the reality of sin.

 

2.

If sin is real, where did it come from?  Sin originated with Adam and Eve.  Therefore, if hell is real and sin is real the origin of sin must be real too.  The reality of hell and of sin demand that the origin of sin is real too.

 

3.

Therefore, the biblical description of the 6-day creation, the creation of Adam from dust and the creation of Eve from Adam's rib must also be real.  The reality of hell and sin and the origin of sin demand that the universe was made in 6 days and that every human being is the direct descendant of Adam and Eve.  

 

4.

Is it real and true that the universe was made in 6 days? 

 

5.

Is it real and true that every human being is descended from Adam and Eve?

 

6.

If the universe was not made in 6 days, then what the bible says is not real and not true and therefore sin and hell are not real and not true.

 

7.

If every human being is not descended from Adam and Eve, then what the bible says is not real and not true and therefore sin and hell are not real and not true.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

[pantheory]

6 hours ago, Aibao said:

Thanks for the answer - don't apologize, I really appreciate it and your comment brought me to an interesting topic of Jewish mythology.

 

Yeah, Jewish mythology is fun.  I read a little of it years ago before the internet. Will look for more of it now.  Cheers again Albao  

 

[Aibao]

On 1.06.2022 at 00:14, walterpthefirst said:

 

Przepraszam Aibao. Wygląda na to, że przegapiłem twoją odpowiedź.

 

Oto argument. Jest podzielony na 7 kroków. W tym sporze traktuję to, co mówi Biblia, jako prawdziwe i prawdziwe. Nie musisz wiedzieć ani mieć pewności, że Biblia jest prawdziwa i prawdziwa. Wszystko, co musisz zrobić, to sprawdzić logikę każdego kroku. Że jeśli jeden krok jest prawdziwy i prawdziwy, to następny krok również musi być prawdziwy i prawdziwy. Proszę zacząć od 1 i przejść do końca lub jak najdalej. Pomogę ci, jeśli utkniesz.

 

 

 

1.

Jeśli piekło jest realne, to grzech jest również realny. Dzieje się tak, ponieważ nieprzebaczony grzech powoduje, że idziemy do piekła. Rzeczywistość piekła wymaga rzeczywistości grzechu.

 

2.

Jeśli grzech jest prawdziwy, skąd się wziął? Grzech zrodził się z Adamem i Ewą. Dlatego też, jeśli piekło jest realne, a grzech jest realny, pochodzenie grzechu również musi być realne. Rzeczywistość piekła i grzechu wymaga, aby źródło grzechu było również rzeczywiste.

 

3.

Dlatego biblijny opis stworzenia 6-dniowego, stworzenia Adama z prochu i stworzenia Ewy z żebra Adama, musi być również prawdziwy. Rzeczywistość piekła i grzechu oraz pochodzenie grzechu wymagają, aby wszechświat został stworzony w 6 dni i aby każdy człowiek był bezpośrednim potomkiem Adama i Ewy.  

 

4.

Czy to prawda i prawda, że wszechświat powstał w 6 dni? 

 

5.

Czy to prawda i prawda, że każdy człowiek pochodzi od Adama i Ewy?

 

6.

Jeśli wszechświat nie został stworzony w ciągu 6 dni, to to, co mówi Biblia, nie jest prawdziwe i nieprawdziwe, a zatem grzech i piekło nie są ani prawdziwe, ani prawdziwe.

 

7.

Jeśli każda istota ludzka nie pochodzi od Adama i Ewy, to to, co mówi Biblia, jest nieprawdziwe i nieprawdziwe, a zatem grzech i piekło nie są ani prawdziwe, ani nieprawdziwe.

 

 

Dziękuję Ci.

 

Waltera.

 

Sorry to write back only now. So I will abstain from answering my previous post, though I would like to, but I want you to notice my answer to your question here.

 

By analyzing your points (thank you for this plan in general, it can help me solve my religious problems and know where to start) at the very first point I stumble.

 

I could answer that there are books written by people who had very real visions of hell, or someone visited hell and saw, for example, Hitler in it:

 

 

 

How do you explain that? Someone was just making things up? But for what purpose? Does Christianity forbid a lie? Any lie, even the so-called "lying for Jesus'.

 

The second point is the reality of sin. In general, we have all witnessed bad behavior from other people and sometimes our own behavior. This is sin - immoral behavior. If the concept of sin is even that of Augustine or Paul, and everyone who is born sooner or later begins to sin or not, then the punishment of hell is just. because even without original sin everyone is responsible for their own sins?

 

I am ashamed that I was stuck at the very beginning ...

 

 

[pantheory]

H Albao,

 

Some people, as you know, have great imaginations enabling them to write interesting books. Some of the most interesting are those that actually believe that some of their own imaginations were real. This not only applies to religious subjects, but also to magic, flying saucers, etc. And some people just imagine and dream what they want to see and believe IMO -- and from my readings.

[walterpthefirst]

46 minutes ago, Aibao said:

Sorry to write back only now. So I will abstain from answering my previous post, though I would like to, but I want you to notice my answer to your question here.

 

By analyzing your points (thank you for this plan in general, it can help me solve my religious problems and know where to start) at the very first point I stumble.

 

I could answer that there are books written by people who had very real visions of hell, or someone visited hell and saw, for example, Hitler in it:

 

How do you explain that? Someone was just making things up? But for what purpose? Does Christianity forbid a lie? Any lie, even the so-called "lying for Jesus'.

 

 

Hello Aibao.

 

These people claim they had visions of hell and they claim they went to hell.  

 

I don't have to explain anything about their claims because to me a claim has no value unless and until it is supported by independent evidence.  Until their claims are supported with evidence that I can check and test and see for myself I will dismiss their claims as invalid and unproven.  My approach is called scepticism.  A sceptic chooses NOT to believe something until there is good evidence for it.  A sceptic also believes that the onus is on the claim-maker to present testable evidence to support their claim.  If they cannot do that then the sceptic is under no burden to accept the claim as valid and real.

 

And this is where we differ, Aibao.

It seems that you will readily accept the claims made by other people, especially if these claims cause you fear and anxiety.  But I will not believe such claims and will always ask them to support their claims with evidence.   Unless they can present evidence then I will not accept their claims.  I don't have to explain anything, don't have to worry if they are just making things up, don't have to worry about what their purpose is in making these claims, don't have to worry about what Christianity says about lying and don't have to worry about lying for Jesus.  I don't have to worry about any of these things because I have not taken the first step down the road of belief by accepting their claims as true.

 

And you can do this too.  If you see any claim that is not supported with evidence that you can check and test for yourself - then do not accept it as true.  By not accepting it you don't have to worry about anything related to it.

 

So, I have two questions for you.

 

Can you test the truth of the visions of hell that this person claims to have had by looking directly into their mind?

 

Can you test the truth of the other persons claim that they went to hell by checking where they were on that day?

 

If you do not understand my questions I will explain them to you.

 

Thank you .

 

Walter.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Aibao said:

 

The second point is the reality of sin. In general, we have all witnessed bad behavior from other people and sometimes our own behavior. This is sin - immoral behavior. If the concept of sin is even that of Augustine or Paul, and everyone who is born sooner or later begins to sin or not, then the punishment of hell is just. because even without original sin everyone is responsible for their own sins?

 

I am ashamed that I was stuck at the very beginning ...

 

 

 

Aibao,

 

Who is anyone responsible to if there is no original sin?

Who is anyone answerable to for their sins if there is no original sin?

The answer to both of these questions is...  only ourselves.

 

If there is no original sin then Adam and Eve did not sin against god.

And therefore, they and we are not responsible to god for our sins.

Therefore, they and we are not answerable to god for our sins.

 

We are only responsible for our sins to each other and not to god.

We are only answerable for our sins to each other and not to god.

If there is no original sin then we can live for ourselves and for each other.

 

If there is no original sin then god has no power over us.

If there is no original sin then hell has no power over us. 

If there is no original sin then satan has no power over us.

 

We are free to live our lives without fear.

We are free to stop thinking of our bad behaviour as sin.

We are free to stop being ashamed of ourselves.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

[Aibao]

23 hours ago, pantheory said:

H Albao,

 

Some people, as you know, have great imaginations enabling them to write interesting books. Some of the most interesting are those that actually believe that some of their own imaginations were real. This not only applies to religious subjects, but also to magic, flying saucers, etc. And some people just imagine and dream what they want to see and believe IMO -- and from my readings.

Hey, thank you for your answer. Well, that gives me a lot to think about - because, for example, there are people who say that they not only saw a UFO, but that they were even kidnapped by UFOs. What can we say? Maybe they were delusional? Maybe they had a hidden purpose in it? Or mental illness, unfortunately. But what will believers and maybe apologists say on UFOs? They will acknowledge that they could see, but they will explain that it was Satan and he wanted to deceive them that way. So again I don't know who is right, because to know if seeing UFOs is either Satan or delusions I need to know the following: Christianity is or is not true. Actually, yes, that's all I need to know. Then I can say whether the UFO sightings were real and possible or not. Like presupposition apologists, they can answer anything if they believe that religion is true, because that gives them a view of all other things, but from a religious perspective. If they are wrong (I hope that maybe I have too little knowledge to completely let go of considering religion) then they would have to choose a different worldview / prism through which they will judge everything that surrounds them. I apologize for such a complicated answer, I know it is hard to talk to me and I appreciate every effort to answer me.

[Aibao]

22 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

These people claim they had visions of hell and they claim they went to hell.  

 

I don't have to explain anything about their claims because to me a claim has no value unless and until it is supported by independent evidence.  Until their claims are supported with evidence that I can check and test and see for myself I will dismiss their claims as invalid and unproven.  My approach is called scepticism.  A sceptic chooses NOT to believe something until there is good evidence for it.  A sceptic also believes that the onus is on the claim-maker to present testable evidence to support their claim.  If they cannot do that then the sceptic is under no burden to accept the claim as valid and real.

 

And this is where we differ, Aibao.

It seems that you will readily accept the claims made by other people, especially if these claims cause you fear and anxiety.  But I will not believe such claims and will always ask them to support their claims with evidence.   Unless they can present evidence then I will not accept their claims.  I don't have to explain anything, don't have to worry if they are just making things up, don't have to worry about what their purpose is in making these claims, don't have to worry about what Christianity says about lying and don't have to worry about lying for Jesus.  I don't have to worry about any of these things because I have not taken the first step down the road of belief by accepting their claims as true.

 

And you can do this too.  If you see any claim that is not supported with evidence that you can check and test for yourself - then do not accept it as true.  By not accepting it you don't have to worry about anything related to it.

 

So, I have two questions for you.

 

Can you test the truth of the visions of hell that this person claims to have had by looking directly into their mind?

 

Can you test the truth of the other persons claim that they went to hell by checking where they were on that day?

 

If you do not understand my questions I will explain them to you.

 

Thank you .

 

Also consider the possibility: if there is a God it is possible (many Calvinists would agree) that He does not want to reveal Himself to everyone and provide evidence that can be investigated like any other field of science. Maybe God chooses whom to reveal Himself, because He knows that, for example, this person will believe and reveals Himself to simple people who are gullible or sensitive to mystical experiences as the Bible claims (I think ...), and not to the rational and rational. Because I don't know if I have this impression or not, but isn't it that the Bible, in a way, promotes naivety? Although, on the other hand, he also recommends caution ... ok, I'm straying from the topic. Returning to the topic - God can reveal Himself only to selected people, and for example it does not mean that He does not exist, because others do not see the evidence, He has simply not revealed Himself to them and they are condemned to believe others on the basis of their revelations. Or maybe he did not reveal himself to others because, for example, they would react with shock or die of terror or something else? So they are all guilty and doomed to believe other people about their revelations ... If 80% of society is not sensitive to mystical experiences / spirituality, then they are doomed to believe others - those who have had these experiences. So how to investigate what is true and what not, if God exists, for example, but chooses the people to whom he will appear?

 

 

 

 

My answers for your questions: 

Unfortunately, I can not check it. But I myself had a kind of dream (I was half alert) where I had the impression, felt and saw in my mind (in my imagination, as if in a dream) that black demons were flowing through me. It was so terrible and exhausting that I cried out of fear the next day. And this was something I had after reading and listening to Hell and that I can go there if I do not return to Christianity. It was once.

 

A few years ago I had a dream where there was a fire in my house (or a fire, I don't know) and Jesus was saying to me: You will be in heaven. Surprisingly, about 4 years ago there was a real fire in my house! Is it some sort of synchronicity? I hope that a coincidence and not some vision - please, if someone had something similar, let me know because it worries and torments me.

 

After this time, I had a different dream: me and my mother are sailing boats (the water itself guides our boats in certain directions) - my mother goes to heaven, and I to hell.

 

However, I did not care about these dreams and I quickly moved to everyday life because I convinced myself when I left the church (which means then I thought it was true) that since my friends from the church broke off contact with me, since I felt bad in the church and my life was a Christian feeling guilty. and constant dedication to others exhausted me mentally and caused anger, I was not a real Christian, God did not choose me and I go to hell not entirely because of my fault. Then I felt so rejected by God and the church that, surprisingly, she was not even afraid of hell (maybe also because I did not watch the torments of hell and hell in the church was presented metaphorically and I hoped that since God created hell, he would remember that I tried to be friends with him and he will not torture me, only later did I learn that God may be a tyrant to me and that somewhere my old attempt at friendship with him will be, and hell will be a horror).

 

So, based on my own experience, I can say that you can have some kind of experience of hell. In my case, they were dreams. Or maybe they came as a result of a strong mental reaction to terrible topics related to hell? Because recently I dreamed about orcs (I was thinking about them and wondering about the situation of one of them I read about - yes, maybe it's strange, but I adore these animals). Another time I was thinking about my ex-boyfriend and I had a dream too. But many times I dreamed about things unrelated to the topics I was thinking about. So I don't know, but I can say that I've had some experience of hell (in dreams). That's why I'm afraid. A Christian will say that it is the Holy Spirit who wants to warn me or convince me. Or maybe Christianity is one big terrible myth? This is why I am here. I want to check if I have to be afraid of horror after horror (because my life, and probably everyone sometimes starts to resemble horror on Earth, and this religion offers us an additional scarier horror after death, in addition, an eternal horror.)In addition, Christians will say that it is other people who create horror on Earth through their sins / immorality, not God - God will create a horror for you only after death. Great.

 

And it is up to you to look for him, and if you do not believe because you are not convinced by the evidence, it is your fault. That's why I struggle so persistently and seek and ask strange pesky questions that make me irritated by my own confusing questions. Thanks for every reply.

[Aibao]

22 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Aibao,

 

Who is anyone responsible to if there is no original sin?

Who is anyone answerable to for their sins if there is no original sin?

The answer to both of these questions is...  only ourselves.

 

If there is no original sin then Adam and Eve did not sin against god.

And therefore, they and we are not responsible to god for our sins.

Therefore, they and we are not answerable to god for our sins.

 

We are only responsible for our sins to each other and not to god.

We are only answerable for our sins to each other and not to god.

If there is no original sin then we can live for ourselves and for each other.

 

If there is no original sin then god has no power over us.

If there is no original sin then hell has no power over us. 

If there is no original sin then satan has no power over us.

 

We are free to live our lives without fear.

We are free to stop thinking of our bad behaviour as sin.

We are free to stop being ashamed of ourselves.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

Well, even if there is no original sin, these are our own sins and for them we are also responsible to God according to some believers. And even if we solve our problems with sin, the Bible says that if we can do good and not do it, we sin. So even doing nothing is a sin. It's so tiring and terrifying at the same time.

 

Sorry for the long replies. I couldn't put it any less.

[pantheory]

3 hours ago, Aibao said:

Hey, thank you for your answer. Well, that gives me a lot to think about - because, for example, there are people who say that they not only saw a UFO, but that they were even kidnapped by UFOs. What can we say? Maybe they were delusional? Maybe they had a hidden purpose in it? Or mental illness, unfortunately. But what will believers and maybe apologists say on UFOs? They will acknowledge that they could see, but they will explain that it was Satan and he wanted to deceive them that way. So again I don't know who is right, because to know if seeing UFOs is either Satan or delusions I need to know the following: Christianity is or is not true. Actually, yes, that's all I need to know. Then I can say whether the UFO sightings were real and possible or not. Like presupposition apologists, they can answer anything if they believe that religion is true, because that gives them a view of all other things, but from a religious perspective. If they are wrong (I hope that maybe I have too little knowledge to completely let go of considering religion) then they would have to choose a different worldview / prism through which they will judge everything that surrounds them. I apologize for such a complicated answer, I know it is hard to talk to me and I appreciate every effort to answer me.

 

I'm not a big fan of lies and conspiracy theories. IMO a lot of such people are simply delusional, not talking BS on purpose. My ideas of course are speculative. As a complete and total atheist asserting that humans are all animals IMO, my answers hope to show that many atheists also have great morals, maybe a little different from Christian morals, but still better than many Christians IMO. It's not bad to believe in religion IMO but It's also not bad to believe in Greek mythology or any other fairy tales. It's just nice to know the truth about reality,  that humans are simply animals, at least it is for me. Maybe an interesting idea is that if one is an atheist and does charity work; it's solely for the purpose of helping others with zero reward in heaven.

 

cheers Alboa

[walterpthefirst]

11 hours ago, Aibao said:

Also consider the possibility: if there is a God it is possible (many Calvinists would agree) that He does not want to reveal Himself to everyone and provide evidence that can be investigated like any other field of science. Maybe God chooses whom to reveal Himself, because He knows that, for example, this person will believe and reveals Himself to simple people who are gullible or sensitive to mystical experiences as the Bible claims (I think ...), and not to the rational and rational. Because I don't know if I have this impression or not, but isn't it that the Bible, in a way, promotes naivety? Although, on the other hand, he also recommends caution ... ok, I'm straying from the topic. Returning to the topic - God can reveal Himself only to selected people, and for example it does not mean that He does not exist, because others do not see the evidence, He has simply not revealed Himself to them and they are condemned to believe others on the basis of their revelations. Or maybe he did not reveal himself to others because, for example, they would react with shock or die of terror or something else? So they are all guilty and doomed to believe other people about their revelations ... If 80% of society is not sensitive to mystical experiences / spirituality, then they are doomed to believe others - those who have had these experiences. So how to investigate what is true and what not, if God exists, for example, but chooses the people to whom he will appear?

 

 

 

I don't live by possibilities that are not supported with evidence, Aibao.

 

And neither do you.

 

How much is in your bank account today?  You can find out exactly, right?  It's possible that there might be nothing in your account or there might be millions in your account.  But you don't live as if there's nothing or if there's millions, do you?  You don't live every day, torturing yourself with the possibility that you might have no money at all, do you?  The answer to that question is, of course, no.  You go by the evidence that tells you exactly how much is in account.

 

And the same principle of living by evidence (and not vague possibilities) applies in every part of your life.  You know exactly who your family members are and who your friends are and you don't worry about any possible family or friends that might live in Brazil or Japan.  You know exactly who you work with and what your job requires and you don't worry about vague possibilities.  You know exactly which way to walk to reach your local shops and you don't worry that you'll end up at the North Pole if you take a wrong turning.

 

None of us live as if vague possibilities are going to cause us an eternity of suffering.  We live in the here and now, in the real world.  

 

I'll be very surprised if you deny what I've just written, Aibao.

 

 

Moving on. 

If god only reveals himself to certain people, but condemns everyone to hellfire unless they believe in him, then he is just a sadistic monster and not a god of love and goodness and justice.  He doesn't deserve anything from us.

 

Do really you want to be ruled over for eternity by a god who has no love and goodness and justice in him?

[walterpthefirst]

My answers for your questions: 

Unfortunately, I can not check it. But I myself had a kind of dream (I was half alert) where I had the impression, felt and saw in my mind (in my imagination, as if in a dream) that black demons were flowing through me. It was so terrible and exhausting that I cried out of fear the next day. And this was something I had after reading and listening to Hell and that I can go there if I do not return to Christianity. It was once.

 

A few years ago I had a dream where there was a fire in my house (or a fire, I don't know) and Jesus was saying to me: You will be in heaven. Surprisingly, about 4 years ago there was a real fire in my house! Is it some sort of synchronicity? I hope that a coincidence and not some vision - please, if someone had something similar, let me know because it worries and torments me.

 

After this time, I had a different dream: me and my mother are sailing boats (the water itself guides our boats in certain directions) - my mother goes to heaven, and I to hell.

 

However, I did not care about these dreams and I quickly moved to everyday life because I convinced myself when I left the church (which means then I thought it was true) that since my friends from the church broke off contact with me, since I felt bad in the church and my life was a Christian feeling guilty. and constant dedication to others exhausted me mentally and caused anger, I was not a real Christian, God did not choose me and I go to hell not entirely because of my fault. Then I felt so rejected by God and the church that, surprisingly, she was not even afraid of hell (maybe also because I did not watch the torments of hell and hell in the church was presented metaphorically and I hoped that since God created hell, he would remember that I tried to be friends with him and he will not torture me, only later did I learn that God may be a tyrant to me and that somewhere my old attempt at friendship with him will be, and hell will be a horror).

 

So, based on my own experience, I can say that you can have some kind of experience of hell. In my case, they were dreams. Or maybe they came as a result of a strong mental reaction to terrible topics related to hell? Because recently I dreamed about orcs (I was thinking about them and wondering about the situation of one of them I read about - yes, maybe it's strange, but I adore these animals). Another time I was thinking about my ex-boyfriend and I had a dream too. But many times I dreamed about things unrelated to the topics I was thinking about. So I don't know, but I can say that I've had some experience of hell (in dreams). That's why I'm afraid. A Christian will say that it is the Holy Spirit who wants to warn me or convince me. Or maybe Christianity is one big terrible myth? This is why I am here. I want to check if I have to be afraid of horror after horror (because my life, and probably everyone sometimes starts to resemble horror on Earth, and this religion offers us an additional scarier horror after death, in addition, an eternal horror.)In addition, Christians will say that it is other people who create horror on Earth through their sins / immorality, not God - God will create a horror for you only after death. Great.

 

And it is up to you to look for him, and if you do not believe because you are not convinced by the evidence, it is your fault. That's why I struggle so persistently and seek and ask strange pesky questions that make me irritated by my own confusing questions. Thanks for every reply.

 

 

That's right Aibao.

 

You can't check what either of those people claimed.  But dreams are not reality and you don't live by following your dreams, you live by the evidence of what's around you.  I've just demonstrated that in my earlier reply.

 

It doesn't matter if millions of people have the same dreams.  At one time everyone alive believed that the world was flat.  But their belief didn't make it true.  Dreams are not true and are not real.

 

Stop believing in vague possibilities, dreams and things you can't check.  That's not how you live anyway.  You live by evidence.  So start believing only in things for which there is testable evidence.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

15 hours ago, Aibao said:

Well, even if there is no original sin, these are our own sins and for them we are also responsible to God according to some believers.

 

 

But only if god is real. 

 

And ancient myths, the words in a holy book, other people's words (hearsay), dreams, feelings and vague possibilities are not any kind of reliable evidence that god is real.  Where is the evidence, Aibao?  Not your feelings or your dreams, but the real and testable and reliable evidence for god?  There is none, of course.  So your argument about us being responsible to god for our own sins is not based upon any reliable evidence at all.

 

All of the real and solid evidence tells us that we are only responsible and answerable to each other.

 

15 hours ago, Aibao said:

 

 

And even if we solve our problems with sin, the Bible says that if we can do good and not do it, we sin. So even doing nothing is a sin. It's so tiring and terrifying at the same time.

 

Sorry for the long replies. I couldn't put it any less.

 

But the bible should only be paid attention to if god is real.  And there's no reliable evidence that he is.  So, what the bible says about sin is not based upon any solid and reliable evidence either.

 

If anything, the opposite is true.  A lot of what the bible says is totally false and untrue.  The universe was not created in 6 days.  It is 13.72 billion years old.  Plants and animal were not created in a single day.  They evolved over billions years and are still evolving.  The highest mountains in the world were not covered by Noah's flood.  There is no geological evidence for that.  The human race did come from just one man and one woman.  The science of genetics has no evidence for that.  Nor is there any anthropological or palaeontological evidence for that.  And so on.

 

Aibao, since there is no real evidence for god, this means that you are not responsible and answerable to him for anything.  And if there is no god then there is no such things as sin.  Which means that you have not sinned and you cannot sin.  You have nothing to be sorry or ashamed about.  You are free to live without fear.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

18 hours ago, Aibao said:

 

 It's so tiring and terrifying at the same time.

 

Aibao, you appear to have OCD (with perhaps some mania)?? and getting more information about religion doesn't seem to be helping your worry.  SSRI medications are typically used for this disorder, and at times it is a trial and error process to find the one that works best.  Have you talked to your doctor about getting some relief for this condition?  In the USA medication combined with psychotherapy is usually recommended.

 

I did some quick research on the mental health programs in Poland and found they are poorly funded and very out of date.  If I remember correctly, you are attending college.  Do they have a counseling center?  If so, I recommend you talk with someone there.  Whoever you talk to, tell them what I have suggested.

[Aibao]

On 6/19/2022 at 2:32 AM, pantheory said:

 

I'm not a big fan of lies and conspiracy theories. IMO a lot of such people are simply delusional, not talking BS on purpose. My ideas of course are speculative. As a complete and total atheist asserting that humans are all animals IMO, my answers hope to show that many atheists also have great morals, maybe a little different from Christian morals, but still better than many Christians IMO. It's not bad to believe in religion IMO but It's also not bad to believe in Greek mythology or any other fairy tales. It's just nice to know the truth about reality,  that humans are simply animals, at least it is for me. Maybe an interesting idea is that if one is an atheist and does charity work; it's solely for the purpose of helping others with zero reward in heaven.

 

cheers Alboa

Thank you, your answer actually led me to what I am mainly looking for, you hit the nail on the head - I am looking for the truth about reality.But I get lost in religion ...

[Aibao]

On 6/19/2022 at 10:53 AM, walterpthefirst said:

 

I don't live by possibilities that are not supported with evidence, Aibao.

 

And neither do you.

 

How much is in your bank account today?  You can find out exactly, right?  It's possible that there might be nothing in your account or there might be millions in your account.  But you don't live as if there's nothing or if there's millions, do you?  You don't live every day, torturing yourself with the possibility that you might have no money at all, do you?  The answer to that question is, of course, no.  You go by the evidence that tells you exactly how much is in account.

 

And the same principle of living by evidence (and not vague possibilities) applies in every part of your life.  You know exactly who your family members are and who your friends are and you don't worry about any possible family or friends that might live in Brazil or Japan.  You know exactly who you work with and what your job requires and you don't worry about vague possibilities.  You know exactly which way to walk to reach your local shops and you don't worry that you'll end up at the North Pole if you take a wrong turning.

 

None of us live as if vague possibilities are going to cause us an eternity of suffering.  We live in the here and now, in the real world.  

 

I'll be very surprised if you deny what I've just written, Aibao.

 

 

Moving on. 

If god only reveals himself to certain people, but condemns everyone to hellfire unless they believe in him, then he is just a sadistic monster and not a god of love and goodness and justice.  He doesn't deserve anything from us.

 

Do really you want to be ruled over for eternity by a god who has no love and goodness and justice in him?

Exactly. I have a problem with looking at the possibilities rather than the evidence. Or I confuse possibility with evidence. As for the fact that I am not worried about people, for example in Brazil - Recently I was worried about children from Syria because there has been a war there for years - I even cried. I do not know why, for example I used to cry because of hunger in Africa and decided that I would stop eating because others do not have food. This worrying about someone who is not around is perhaps strange and unhealthy, I must admit that it is exhausting, so often I like to be alone and isolate myself from people and take care of e.g. cleaning the house and listening to music - then my mind and psyche rest a bit.

 

I agree that since God gives such evidence to others, such as and not to others, He expects faith from everyone and then sends them to eternal torture, it is monstrous and sadistic. But I am afraid of such a possibility, the more so because when I was still in the church, believers said that God would judge fairly and on this basis how much you know and not everyone will have the capacity to have strong faith, so if little is given to you, little will be expected of you. But I have books, articles, so I have the feeling that a lot has been given to me, so the requirements are high, but it breaks me mentally a bit and it scares me that I have to study the religion that worries and discourages me so much. So even if someone did not have a revelation, God will judge them on the basis of other things, so they are doomed anyway.

[Aibao]

On 6/19/2022 at 3:04 PM, walterpthefirst said:

 

But only if god is real. 

 

And ancient myths, the words in a holy book, other people's words (hearsay), dreams, feelings and vague possibilities are not any kind of reliable evidence that god is real.  Where is the evidence, Aibao?  Not your feelings or your dreams, but the real and testable and reliable evidence for god?  There is none, of course.  So your argument about us being responsible to god for our own sins is not based upon any reliable evidence at all.

 

All of the real and solid evidence tells us that we are only responsible and answerable to each other.

 

 

But the bible should only be paid attention to if god is real.  And there's no reliable evidence that he is.  So, what the bible says about sin is not based upon any solid and reliable evidence either.

 

If anything, the opposite is true.  A lot of what the bible says is totally false and untrue.  The universe was not created in 6 days.  It is 13.72 billion years old.  Plants and animal were not created in a single day.  They evolved over billions years and are still evolving.  The highest mountains in the world were not covered by Noah's flood.  There is no geological evidence for that.  The human race did come from just one man and one woman.  The science of genetics has no evidence for that.  Nor is there any anthropological or palaeontological evidence for that.  And so on.

 

Aibao, since there is no real evidence for god, this means that you are not responsible and answerable to him for anything.  And if there is no god then there is no such things as sin.  Which means that you have not sinned and you cannot sin.  You have nothing to be sorry or ashamed about.  You are free to live without fear.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

Exactly, I heard somewhere from some apologist that if evolution is true then the whole Bible and all Christianity must be false. But that's 1 person. There is also, unfortunately, something like evolutionary theism or something ... let me explain: there are Christians (such an example are especially Catholics and Richard Deem from godandscience) who agree with the theory of evolution and that the world has not been created for 6,000 years, etc. but they still claim that evolution was led by God and that it was God who started life and everything. As for the flood, in the Cambrian era there was actually a flood and here they refer to Noah's flood that the Bible confirms the Cambrian era. In addition, there is a flood myth in all parts of the world, so the flood was worldwide, so the Bible is true again. And the ancestors of man like the hominids and the Neanderthals were the ancestors of Noah. What to do with this? I thought that when I start discovering the science of evolution, everything will clear up in my head, but it turns out that there are Christians who connect evolution with the Bible, and the word "yom" in Genesis used to describe creation as "day" has different meanings in Hebrew: it can mean a long period of time, years, epochs. So the Bible turns out to confirm the old Earth. Just as I thought I would start to think critically and look at the evidence, religion dealt another blow.

[Aibao]

On 6/19/2022 at 7:24 PM, Weezer said:

Aibao, you appear to have OCD (with perhaps some mania)?? and getting more information about religion doesn't seem to be helping your worry.  SSRI medications are typically used for this disorder, and at times it is a trial and error process to find the one that works best.  Have you talked to your doctor about getting some relief for this condition?  In the USA medication combined with psychotherapy is usually recommended.

 

I did some quick research on the mental health programs in Poland and found they are poorly funded and very out of date.  If I remember correctly, you are attending college.  Do they have a counseling center?  If so, I recommend you talk with someone there.  Whoever you talk to, tell them what I have suggested.

Weezer, thank you so much. Yes, it is very possible I have OCD. However, I cannot let go of remaking religion, because I live in anxiety that this may be true, and if I let go, I will lose the chance to save myself from hell, also the other side - I read the arguments of atheists, because maybe religion is a myth and a mistake and I will be my whole life live in religious fear and constraints, perhaps unnecessarily, or it will turn out to be untrue. So I got stuck exploring both possibilities.

It is true - psychiatry in Poland is quite old-fashioned, therefore I do not trust Polish psychologists and psychiatrists. I have a psychologist at the university, maybe I dare to go to him.

Thank you for your suggestion, recognizing what is wrong with me and that I may have OCD may be easier for me to deal with.