Belief. What exactly is it?

[RankStranger]

So this is something that I've always thought about... a result of my Holy Roller upbringing.   Not everybody shares this concern, so if this question isn't important to you, that's cool.

 

But for those who have thoughts on this question, I'd like to hear them.  This invitation is open both to ExChristians and to Christians.  And I'd request (just a request) that we try and be kind to the Christians in this thread.

 

What does 'belief' look like to you?  Is it a behavior?  A feeling?  Simply a fact?  Or do others find the notion as difficult to pin down as I do?

 

What if you find that sometimes you believe?  Or just let yourself imagine that you do?  What if you can choose to believe for a little while, knowing from experience that it will fade? 

 

What if you believe while under the influence of a particular substance?  Is that belief?  What if you believe when you meditate?

 

Let's say you have a dream where you know you're dying,  find it beautiful, and know you're going to some place or state that looks an awful lot like heaven?  Did you believe during that dream?  And maybe not when you woke up?

 

Can you believe that you believe... but be wrong about that?

[Joshpantera]

When you get into the mystical arts, belief is something that can be consciously turned on and off, at least in that genre. We have at least one example of where that is known as a thing. I would classify it as provoking the feeling of belief. 

 

Then there's the issue of mundane beliefs. Everyone has them. Mundane faith in everyday life, too, same thing. Having faith you'll make through whatever challenges come your way, believing in your ability to navigate whatever comes up and get through it. This is what can happen with people who are far removed from religion. At 30 years out, I have no belief in deities or anything like that, that but I have probably an even stronger sense of belief and faith in myself and my ability to navigate life than I did back when I was a religious believer. But it's mundane and not religious faith and belief. 

 

 

 

 

[alreadyGone]

Belief <> knowledge

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

Then there's the issue of mundane beliefs. Everyone has them. Mundane faith in everyday life, too, same thing. Having faith you'll make through whatever challenges come your way, believing in your ability to navigate whatever comes up and get through it. This is what can happen with people who are far removed from religion. At 30 years out, I have no belief in deities or anything like that, that but I have probably an even stronger sense of belief and faith in myself and my ability to navigate life than I did back when I was a religious believer. But it's mundane and not religious faith and belief. 

I'm not sure belief and faith are appropriate terms for this kind of thing.  They're the best terms our language affords; but I find them inadequate and inaccurate.  Your belief in yourself is built on experience and how many obstacles you have overcome.  There's historical data there.  Same as me having "faith" when I get on board an airplane.  I may not know the pilot or the chief engineer who declared the craft worthy of flight; but I've logged thousands of miles in air travel in my lifetime and rely on that data.

 

Faith in something unseen and completely untestable is a different beast altogether.  As I've often said, even as a believer, there's a thin line between faith and stupidity; and only the outcome will determine which one you had.

[Joshpantera]

12 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm not sure belief and faith are appropriate terms for this kind of thing.  They're the best terms our language affords; but I find them inadequate and inaccurate.  Your belief in yourself is built on experience and how many obstacles you have overcome.  There's historical data there.  Same as me having "faith" when I get on board an airplane.  I may not know the pilot or the chief engineer who declared the craft worthy of flight; but I've logged thousands of miles in air travel in my lifetime and rely on that data.

 

Faith in something unseen and completely untestable is a different beast altogether.  As I've often said, even as a believer, there's a thin line between faith and stupidity; and only the outcome will determine which one you had.

 

I've called it mundane belief. It may be better classified as without worry, confidence in own's ability to navigate life, the feeling that all will work out. This is what I'm stronger with post religion. 

[walterpthefirst]

Perhaps I can help out a bit with what the Bible says about faith?

 

 

Hebrews 11 covers it, but instead of citing the whole chapter I'll just select the important parts.

 

1Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 

2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

 

Here Paul establishes that faith only comes into play when we are dealing with unseen things.  Therefore, if we saw Jesus heal a man of leprosy we do not have to have faith that we saw it.  The fact that we saw it is enough.  Faith only comes into play when we consider who did the healing and why.  Those are the unseen things.  The reasons behind what we just witnessed.

 

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

 

Noah acted on faith, not seeing the flood coming with his eyes but being warned about it by god.  If he had acted only when the rains started then he and his family would have died along with everyone else.  God's warning to him and god himself were the two unseen things that Noah had to have faith in.  There was nothing visible for him to have faith in.

 

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 

9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 

10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

 

Abraham did not see the place that would become his inheritance when he was told to go, because that land was hundreds of miles away.  Nor did Abraham's eyes see the New Jerusalem, the city that god is building for his followers.  In both instances Abrahams eyes were of no use to him.  He had to act in faith, believing in the three things he couldn't see with his eyes - god himself, the land he would inherit and god's city in the new heaven.

 

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 

14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 

15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 

16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

 

These people had seen the country they left with their eyes but they did not see what god promised them with their eyes and so they died in faith.

 

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

 

Isaac did not see the future of Jacob and Esau with his own eyes.  That would have been impossible.  But he looked ahead by faith to a time beyond his own life, a time which was unseen by his eyes but which he saw by faith.

 

22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.

 

Joseph did the same as Isaac, looking forward in faith to things that his eyes could not see.  In this case, where his bones were to be buried.

 

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 

40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

 

The people listed in Hebrews 11 did not see any of the things they had been promised with their eyes.  Instead they saw them by faith, looking forwards in hope to when god would fulfil all of his promises and plans for them.

 

 

According to the bible, faith only deals with unseen things.  Spiritual things that the human eye cannot see, future things that humans cannot see and god himself, who is behind all of the miracles and promises listed in this chapter.  Spiritual things, future things and god himself are invisible to us.

 

So, when we talk about belief in the biblical sense of the word, we need to factor in what it says about faith.  

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[RankStranger]

One thing I've always been stuck on, even when I was a kid, is that 'belief' isn't really a voluntary thing.  Belief is not a choice.  You assess the situation as you understand it, and your belief is a result of that.  I don't choose to believe that the sky is blue or that the sun will come up in the morning.  For those who can and do choose to believe despite their lying eyes... to me that just looks like dishonesty.  And a god who knows your every thought would have no trouble seeing that.

 

I've been satisfied with that view for a long time, and none of that has really changed.  But I've taken a few trips over the past 9 years.  Ventured out into the astral plane and loosed my mind's tether to reality... let it drift where it would.  The things I saw and felt- if I'd had those experiences when I was younger and more impressionable, I would've been right back in the cult.

 

Those spirituality-circuits in my brain, poisoned and atrophied for decades... I was trying to find them.  And holy fucking shit did I find them, via medicine and... um... prayer

 

Now that's not to say I've gone running back into the arms of BibleJesus (though my stance on the matter has softened somewhat).  I know very well that this was a brain-hack, not a supernatural sky-daddy. 

 

But one thing I think I found out is that on some level, deep down in my brain's early hard-wiring... in some sense I apparently do believe.  Whether I like it or not.  In spite of all evidence and experience to the contrary, some things can't be un-learned.

 

And it's not a choice either, as far as I can tell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RankStranger]

On 7/4/2022 at 9:17 AM, walterpthefirst said:

Perhaps I can help out a bit with what the Bible says about faith?

 

 

Hebrews 11 covers it, but instead of citing the whole chapter I'll just select the important parts.

 

1Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 

2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

 

Here Paul establishes that faith only comes into play when we are dealing with unseen things.  Therefore, if we saw Jesus heal a man of leprosy we do not have to have faith that we saw it.  The fact that we saw it is enough.  Faith only comes into play when we consider who did the healing and why.  Those are the unseen things.  The reasons behind what we just witnessed.

 

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

 

Noah acted on faith, not seeing the flood coming with his eyes but being warned about it by god.  If he had acted only when the rains started then he and his family would have died along with everyone else.  God's warning to him and god himself were the two unseen things that Noah had to have faith in.  There was nothing visible for him to have faith in.

 

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 

9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 

10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

 

Abraham did not see the place that would become his inheritance when he was told to go, because that land was hundreds of miles away.  Nor did Abraham's eyes see the New Jerusalem, the city that god is building for his followers.  In both instances Abrahams eyes were of no use to him.  He had to act in faith, believing in the three things he couldn't see with his eyes - god himself, the land he would inherit and god's city in the new heaven.

 

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 

14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 

15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 

16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

 

These people had seen the country they left with their eyes but they did not see what god promised them with their eyes and so they died in faith.

 

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

 

Isaac did not see the future of Jacob and Esau with his own eyes.  That would have been impossible.  But he looked ahead by faith to a time beyond his own life, a time which was unseen by his eyes but which he saw by faith.

 

22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.

 

Joseph did the same as Isaac, looking forward in faith to things that his eyes could not see.  In this case, where his bones were to be buried.

 

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 

40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

 

The people listed in Hebrews 11 did not see any of the things they had been promised with their eyes.  Instead they saw them by faith, looking forwards in hope to when god would fulfil all of his promises and plans for them.

 

 

According to the bible, faith only deals with unseen things.  Spiritual things that the human eye cannot see, future things that humans cannot see and god himself, who is behind all of the miracles and promises listed in this chapter.  Spiritual things, future things and god himself are invisible to us.

 

So, when we talk about belief in the biblical sense of the word, we need to factor in what it says about faith.  

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

A lot of people use 'faith' and 'belief' kinda interchangeably.  Hell a lot of them wouldn't really distinguish between faith and knowledge.  I think it's a dishonest sort of false-certainty when people conflate faith, belief, and knowledge.

 

Do you have any thoughts on a biblically consistent distinction between faith and belief?  It's almost like this is a gradient: Faith -> Belief -> Knowledge.

 

Would it be fair to say that knowledge is better-understood than faith?  More certain than faith?  Backed by more evidence than faith?

 

Pretty sure I'm missing something here.

[florduh]

A belief comes from either evidence or faith. I can't see how it could be otherwise.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Just now, florduh said:

A belief comes from either evidence or faith. I can't see how it could be otherwise.

But if you have evidence, is it a belief?  Or is it knowledge?  Unless the "evidence" is faith.

[RankStranger]

2 hours ago, florduh said:

A belief comes from either evidence or faith. I can't see how it could be otherwise.

 

I'm pretty sure I have some deeply (and involuntarily?) held 'beliefs' that can surface under certain conditions... coming from early childhood socialization/indoctrination. 

 

Not sure if a belief like that qualifies as faith, and it definitely doesn't come from anything I'd recognize as 'evidence' from an adult perspective.

[duderonomy]

One believes or one doesn't. Faith is a knowing.

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, duderonomy said:

One believes or one doesn't. Faith is a knowing.

 

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the biblical definition of faith is 'knowing' and 'understanding' without the benefit of evidence.

 

Hebrews 11 covers it nicely.

[duderonomy]

On 7/21/2022 at 2:11 AM, walterpthefirst said:

 

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the biblical definition of faith is 'knowing' and 'understanding' without the benefit of evidence.

 

Hebrews 11 covers it nicely.

 

 

Hebrews 11 covers a lot of things, as does the rest of the (Biblical) book of Hebrews, yet no one knows who wrote it. 

 

That the book covers a definition of faith "Nicely" isn't proof of what you assert.

[walterpthefirst]

12 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

 

Hebrews 11 covers a lot of things, as does the rest of the (Biblical) book of Hebrews, yet no one knows who wrote it. 

 

That the book covers a definition of faith "Nicely" isn't proof of what you assert.

 

The first verse explains what faith is.

 

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

 

Verses 2 to 38 list examples of faith in action.  Verses 39 reiterates verse 1, explaining all of the people listed did not see their reward in their lifetimes.  But they will do so only when they are all together in heaven.

 

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 

40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

 

That's all there is in Hebrews 11.  So, I'm not asserting anything here.  I'm simply pointing out what is said in the text.

 

 

But, if you see things that aren't about faith in this chapter, please show me where they are.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[duderonomy]

18 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

The first verse explains what faith is.

 

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

 

Verses 2 to 38 list examples of faith in action.  Verses 39 reiterates verse 1, explaining all of the people listed did not see their reward in their lifetimes.  But they will do so only when they are all together in heaven.

 

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 

40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

 

That's all there is in Hebrews 11.  So, I'm not asserting anything here.  I'm simply pointing out what is said in the text.

 

 

But, if you see things that aren't about faith in this chapter, please show me where they are.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I said, "One believes or one doesn't. Faith is a knowing", and you quoted what I said and then referred to the "Faith Chapter" of the Bible as a rebuttal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

Just another abstract thought bc that's what I do but starting to think belief is like a single point in the space time continuum based on several factors.  Belief/point A in the continuum won't necessarily later match belief/point B, again, based on those factors.   An absolute would seemingly hold.....and faith, a mental speculation of a constant regardless of the process.

[walterpthefirst]

13 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

 

I said, "One believes or one doesn't. Faith is a knowing", and you quoted what I said and then referred to the "Faith Chapter" of the Bible as a rebuttal.

 

 

Yes, that's right Duderonomy.

 

I'm playing devil's advocate again.  According to scripture there are two ways of knowing.  One way uses evidence and the other doesn't.  This is illustrated in John 14 : 11.

 

 

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

 

Jesus asked the disciples to believe that he was in the Father, even though they could not see the Father.  Or, if they couldn't do that, to believe that he was in the Father, using the evidence of his miracles.  That is, using what they had seen (the miracles) to believe in what they could not see (the Father).

 

Hebrews 11 concentrates only on the kind of knowing that doesn't use evidence.  All of the people listed as examples in that chapter did not see the things they were promised.  The evidence of their eyes was of no help to them.  Therefore, they had to believe and know without any evidence.  And this is what the author of the book of Hebrews is describing in verse 1.

 

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

 

Knowing by faith and not by evidence.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

18 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Just another abstract thought bc that's what I do but starting to think belief is like a single point in the space time continuum based on several factors.  Belief/point A in the continuum won't necessarily later match belief/point B, again, based on those factors.   An absolute would seemingly hold.....and faith, a mental speculation of a constant regardless of the process.

 

?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

41 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Just another abstract thought bc that's what I do but starting to think belief is like a single point in the space time continuum based on several factors.  Belief/point A in the continuum won't necessarily later match belief/point B, again, based on those factors.   An absolute would seemingly hold.....and faith, a mental speculation of a constant regardless of the process.

Did you really need that many words to say "live and learn"?  

[Edgarcito]

45 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Did you really need that many words to say "live and learn"?  

Lol, I see what you did there.....an Occam's Razor type thing....

 

Yes, in less words.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

On 7/6/2022 at 7:36 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

But if you have evidence, is it a belief?  Or is it knowledge?  Unless the "evidence" is faith.

 

Before science makes a firm conclusion, there are breadcrumbs of evidence that lead toward possible answers. Sometimes those answers take generations to find. In the meantime, based on incomplete evidence, some may lean towards one conclusion and others toward another. I'd classify those leanings as belief based on partial knowledge. 

 

I enjoy doing a variety of puzzles on my computer. Sometimes I'll follow a path I think seems reasonable, only to have to change to reach the actual solution (or "a" solution). That's more of a hunch, but it's essentially a short-term belief that I follow until it either pans out or becomes clear that I was wrong. None of these really involve emotion or survival mechanisms (e.g., you'll be burned alive unless you believe X). That means I don't cling to these beliefs as important in themselves, whereas religions tend to promote faith as a goal. 

 

 

On 7/5/2022 at 1:38 PM, RankStranger said:

Those spirituality-circuits in my brain, poisoned and atrophied for decades... I was trying to find them.  And holy fucking shit did I find them, via medicine and... um... prayer

 

I hear ya! Psychedelics are such a reset of emotional perspective on self, traumas, and everything else. The work is taking the experience and deciding how to integrate it into daily life. Netflix is showing "How to change your mind", a film of Michael Pollan about 4 kinds of medicines and how the war on drugs blocked these for decades. 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, Fuego said:

Before science makes a firm conclusion, there are breadcrumbs of evidence that lead toward possible answers. Sometimes those answers take generations to find. In the meantime, based on incomplete evidence, some may lean towards one conclusion and others toward another. I'd classify those leanings as belief based on partial knowledge

I think you're stretching the definitions too far here.  Sure, I might believe Z, based on the evidence I have for X and Y; but I no longer believe X and Y.  I know them.  I have accepted them as factual based on the evidence.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I think that is all I said. Unless X & Y are best guesses still, and Z is conjecture.  

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I misread and was o'er hasty in my reply.