Moderator TABA Posted July 8, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 8, 2022 When it comes to belief or non-belief in a God or gods, certain words mean somewhat different things to different people. Words like atheist, agnostic, skeptic, theist, deist. For the purposes of this topic, I am going to use the widely-accepted meanings of these last two.. A DEIST is somebody who believes that a god is responsible for the creation of all that exists. A deist may believe that the deity then “sat back” and allowed the laws of physics to play out, or the deist may believe that the god is actively keeping the universe functioning in some manner. That’s pretty much it: deism is a belief in a god as a great architect who does not involve himself in the lives of any beings that may exist. A THEIST on the other hand, believes in a god who not only created the universe and all that is in it, but also takes a deep interest in the lives of us humans and perhaps other beings: this god expects us to follow certain rules governing how we treat each other, how we worship, sexual practices, perhaps dietary rules. To break one of these is to commit a “sin”, which is punishable either in life or after death, or both. A theist likely believes in a part of the human that survives death: a soul. One’s soul may experience either bliss or suffering after death, depending on the extent to which the person sinned and/or the person’s beliefs and attitude toward the god. Needless to say, Christians, Muslims and perhaps Hindus are all theists. I am starting this topic because we currently have a Christian visitor, @Johnny, who has challenged us to show how everything came to be without a creator, a god. His belief is that such a creator must exist. By extension, he believes that creator is the God of the Bible, specifically the Christian god of the New Testament, although I do not recall him explaining why he believes in this specific god. This is an ex-Christian community. With the exception of our occasional Christian guests, all of us here have rejected Christianity and no longer believe in its God. We are no longer theists. Some here may still wish Christianity were true. I am not one of them, for what it’s worth. I do not believe in the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Satan, Heaven, Hell, Sin or Salvation, none of it. Without a belief in a god, how do I think I came to exist? How do I think the universe came to exist? Or if it always existed, what makes it all work? What keeps it going? I’m an engineer, but I’m not a scientist. I take an interest in science, cosmology etc but much of it is over my head. I understand how stars and planets are born and die. I understand how evolution by natural selection causes new varieties of life to emerge. But do I understand how the universe was “created” - if it had a beginning? No, I don’t. Do I understand how life on Earth had its beginning? I don’t. It’s all fascinating of course. Could it have been created by a god who itself did not need to be created? I suppose it could. Or could it all have happened because of laws of physics that did not need to be created? I suppose it could. Either option is kind of mind-boggling to my human mind. Regardless of which option - if either -is true, I became convinced several years ago that there is no deity involving itself in the world of humans. The way the world works, the way people behave, for better or worse, is exactly how it would work if there were no deity intervening. Bad things happen because of the laws of science (tsunamis, epidemics, plane crashes) or human behavior, which is often very well explained by the way we evolved through natural selection. Men are often promiscuous and do not like to stay around to raise their offspring, for example, because that is how they evolved by natural selection, to pass on their genes, not to make them or anybody else happy in the process. But it’s not due to Sin, it’s just how things tend to work. In a pre-scientific era, it was only reasonable that humans would have invented gods to explain how things came to be, and how things work. Evil is explained in various ways. In Judaeo-Christianity, it started out as God’s punishment for wrongdoing: the people of Israel did God’s will: they prospered. They disobeyed: they were conquered. But later on, the idea emerged of Satan as a powerful being causing trouble, defying God. This idea of a powerful enemy of God developed only a century of two before Christ supposedly lived. Likewise the ideas of Heaven and Hell as eternal places of bliss or suffering: relatively recent ideas. I could go on at great length about why I am not a Christian, but that’s it in a nutshell. It’s not believable. There is no reason to hope for Heaven, but much better, there is no reason to fear Hell either. No reason to look to a god for moral guidance or condemnation. We must work out our own sense of right and wrong, guided perhaps by our culture and our history. It’s more complicated than looking up Commandments, but it’s much more sustainable and rewarding. So, to repeat what I said above.. ”Could it have been created by a god who itself did not need to be created? I suppose it could. Or could it all have happened because of laws of physics that did not need to be created? I suppose it could.” Whichever it is, if either, falls far, far short of making the case for Christianity or even theism. And that’s why I and the rest of us are ex-Christian. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 9, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted July 9, 2022 I consider myself to be an agnostic apatheist. I don’t know if a god exists; but I also don’t care. For me, the question of a god’s existence simply has no meaning or relevance. Incontrovertible evidence of the existence of a god is not going to impact my daily commute, my annual salary, nor where I by my groceries each week. I will still enjoy hiking, biking, and woodworking. I will still be the best father, husband, friend I can be. Nor would indisputable “proof” of a god’s existence put an end to world hunger, human trafficking, or sexual slavery. There would still be wars, rumors of wars, famine, pestilence, and all manner of trial and tribulation in the world. The only difference would be the certainty that there is a god looking down upon us with benign indifference. As I see it, if there was a god who was going to fix these things, it would have done it already. It wouldn’t wait until we had verified and validated its existence. But, the other side of the coin is that I am also agnostic. I have no more of an idea about the existence of a god than I do about how biological existence came to exist. And I am quite happy in that ignorance. I don’t need to have all of the answers in order to place confidence in the answers I do have. I don’t need to know everything to be happy with what I do know. It would be the epitome of arrogance for me to presume that I am capable of understanding even .01% of all there is to know in the universe (which would be no small feat, given the entirety of what appears to be an infinite universe). But even if I could understand even a tenth of a percent of it all, that still leaves 99.99% of the universe in which a god could exist and I’d be just as blissfully unaware of it as I already am. This is why I find a positive claim of atheist certainty to be as arrogant and intellectually dishonest as a positive theist claim. Is it likely that a god exists without us knowing? Given what evidence we currently have, no, it is not likely. But there was a time when a spherical earth existed despite limited evidence to the contrary. As evidence grows, so grows understanding. As a result, to jump to a conclusion based on a lack of evidence is childishly naïve, at best; willfully ignorant at worst. And this applies whether that conclusion be that a god does not exist because it cannot be proven otherwise, or that conclusion be that a god does exist because there are certain things science has yet to explain. Both are equally foolish and dishonest claims, in my opinion. Thus, despite my personal certainty that it would make little significant difference in the world, I am entirely open to any testable, repeatable evidence of a god’s existence. But this should not be confused with the notion that I would believe in, or be suddenly stricken with a desire to worship it. Where there is sufficient evidence, belief is unnecessary. And the evidence of a world abandoned into chaos, ruin, and tragedy is reason enough not to worship any higher power. Of the gods currently under scrutiny by humanity’s religions, I am convinced by their own holy books to believe in none of them. The god of the Jews did nothing more than establish confusing, self-contradictory, and often nonsensical legislation, before promptly abandoning his people to their enemies. The Mohammedan god, a bloodthirsty peacemaker, is enough of a logical contradiction that it can be dismissed outright. The god presented in the christian bible is an evil and maniacal despot who clearly suffers from multiple personality disorder—at once commanding that one should honor one’s parents and simultaneously hate his father and mother in order to qualify as a disciple. The very character and nature of these gods, as evidenced in the religions they spawned, is also reason enough that they are not worthy of respect, trust, and worship. It is overtly apparent that they are, all three, ficticious characters imagined by the minds of ancient men to serve purposes which are no longer relevant to life and society today. Quite how one goes about offering “proof” of a god’s existence in order to entice others into a belief in grace through faith, is beyond my finite imagination. As previously stated, where there is sufficient evidence, faith is not required. But the converse also applies: where faith is required, evidence is never sufficient. In this regard, anyone who claims with certainty to have “proof” of a god is already suspect. I am happy to entertain the evidence, on the off-chance that this person has actually found something that was missed by the hundreds of thousands of scholars and theologians who have applied themselves to the task over the last 2 millenia. But the chances that I will ever be pleasantly surprised seem to diminish in proportion to the grandiosity of the claims. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted July 10, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2022 On 7/8/2022 at 6:32 PM, TABA said: I am starting this topic because we currently have a Christian visitor, @Johnny, who has challenged us to show how everything came to be without a creator, a god. His belief is that such a creator must exist. By extension, he believes that creator is the God of the Bible, specifically the Christian god of the New Testament, although I do not recall him explaining why he believes in this specific god. Why hasn't he so much as commented yet? On 7/8/2022 at 6:32 PM, TABA said: Do I understand how life on Earth had its beginning? I don’t. It’s all fascinating of course. Could it have been created by a god who itself did not need to be created? I suppose it could. Or could it all have happened because of laws of physics that did not need to be created? I suppose it could. Either option is kind of mind-boggling to my human mind. Regardless of which option - if either -is true, I became convinced several years ago that there is no deity involving itself in the world of humans. The way the world works, the way people behave, for better or worse, is exactly how it would work if there were no deity intervening. Bad things happen because of the laws of science (tsunamis, epidemics, plane crashes) or human behavior, which is often very well explained by the way we evolved through natural selection. Men are often promiscuous and do not like to stay around to raise their offspring, for example, because that is how they evolved by natural selection, to pass on their genes, not to make them or anybody else happy in the process. But it’s not due to Sin, it’s just how things tend to work. Maybe that's why? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 15, 2022 Share Posted July 15, 2022 On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: Without a belief in a god, how do I think I came to exist? How do I think the universe came to exist? Or if it always existed, what makes it all work? What keeps it going? I’m an engineer, but I’m not a scientist. I'm not a scientists but I showed how science works by it must be observable, repeatable, and falsifiable. None of 'your' scientists can show that creation and life happened by natural means by following science. I gave science that showed it can't happen naturally. Recently I gave an example that none of you want to touch, how we even got human sexual reproduction by evolution. On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: I take an interest in science, cosmology etc but much of it is over my head. If you took interest in science, then why don't you follow it? On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: I understand how stars and planets are born and die. You do? Do tell how they are 'born.' The 2LT can't be in effect then. You also somehow bypassed the 1LT. So explain how you understand. On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: I understand how evolution by natural selection causes new varieties of life to emerge. It had to start somewhere with life existing and I gave science that we can't get life without life. You go by when EVERYTHING is there for you THEN somehow your brain kicks in but you clearly show you want to ignore all the had to come before, and what had to come before is not possible. YOU believe it all happened naturally yet have NO evidence to support that. Also give evidence that by natural selection causes new varieties of life to emerge. That they grew in complexity and in information. Do explain too how this got around the 2LT. On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: Regardless of which option - if either -is true, I became convinced several years ago that there is no deity involving itself in the world of humans. How can you be "convinced" when you have NO evidence for a naturalistic/materialistic belief for all this? convinced - completely certain about something. On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: No, I don’t. On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: I suppose it could. My point is, you are not convinced. "I became convinced several years ago that there is no deity involving itself in the world of humans." You have no way of being convinced of such a thing. We not only have creation and life on earth, but we also have a finely-tuned universe that gives us life on earth. That just another thing against you that you have to assume 'just happened naturally' but can't give evidence how that can be. On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: Men are often promiscuous and do not like to stay around to raise their offspring, for example, because that is how they evolved by natural selection, to pass on their genes, not to make them or anybody else happy in the process. I asked how that happened but it's ignored. We have human sexual reproduction (HSR). We know a whole lot about it. Many of us experimented with it. Since you believe in goo-to-you evolution, give a logical explanation with proof of how HSR came about. Here's an example: We had this asexual something that got here by a natural creation that's impossible, the universe formed by some other impossible feat, it gave life by some other impossible feat and somehow gave another impossible feat of an asexual something that eventually mutated a bump, another asexual something eventually mutating a hole, this went on and on of umpteen years, and by mere chance somehow mated from the sexual organs that somehow formed by mere chance not even knowing they were needed so that.........it eventually led to HSR. Sure it's going to be a LONG story and I can't imagine how it could be possible but since you believe it, you better have a good explanation. I don't want theories that answer nothing, I want a logical story with proof to back it up. Since you claim it all came about naturally, then give your natural explanation. On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: In a pre-scientific era, it was only reasonable that humans would have invented gods to explain how things came to be, and how things work. How can humans invent gods and these gods gave us miracles man can't do? Let's say that god is the God of the bible. How can that God invented by pre-scientific era of people know that it took such a God to create? Science backs up it can't happen naturally. How can these pre-scientific era of people know that life can't arise on its own? How can these pre-scientific era of people know that there is a limit in change? You claimed you take an interest in science but you have no science to show your claim that these were pre-scientific era of people, otherwise you'd use science to show that they didn't know about science. Again, if going by the God of the bible, God inspired them what to write so either that God got the science wrong or got it right. This is a new thread and the only one I see singled out is me. As I mentioned, I've clearly have shown just touching on a sparse number of topics thus far, the evidence makes it clear, we did not get all this by natural means. Naturally lost 100%. If people want to fight that then evidence is needed to fight it, not just we don't know yet and what we know is ignored. That shows a clear bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 15, 2022 Share Posted July 15, 2022 On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: we currently have a Christian visitor, @Johnny, Somehow someone felt such a picture representing me gives credence like I'm some sort of nut job. I'm fine with that but I sure wish you'd give evidence for your naturalistic beliefs that at least shows I'm the nut job and your side follows science that must be observable, repeatable, and falsifiable. Be honest enough to admit you can't and give yourselves such pictures to represent you with the word "Naturalistic" behind you on the wall. You'll defend it at all costs no matter how unscientific it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TABA Posted July 15, 2022 Author Moderator Share Posted July 15, 2022 Johnny, let’s assume for argument’s sake that the universe was created by some intelligence, some being. Why do you believe it was the specific god of the Bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TABA Posted July 15, 2022 Author Moderator Share Posted July 15, 2022 7 hours ago, Johnny said: convinced - completely certain about something. No Johnny, that is not what I mean by “convinced”, and that is not how the word is typically used. By “convinced” I mean I am satisfied beyond reasonable doubt. “Convinced” is a very commonly used word, and your attempt to stretch its meaning into something else strikes me as dishonest. So yes, I am convinced - satisfied beyond reasonable doubt - that there is no omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent deity. I am happy to discuss why I believe that, but you seem to have no interest in that particular topic. Your entire christian belief system evidently hangs on your conviction that evolution by natural selection is false and that life cannot have come from non-life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 15, 2022 Share Posted July 15, 2022 Saying "this could not have happened because of 1LT or 2LT" does not mean "God of the bible did it." That is a non-sequitur fallacy. It does not follow. There is no connection whatsoever between those two ideas. Did you get your logic skills from a Cracker Jack box? You want something to be true so bad that you have come up with some super flimsy point about science to try to support your wish about God. Since God never shows up to set the record straight, all Christians have are weak arguments like yours about science contradicting science or fairytale shit from their fictional bible. Science is not perfect but its theories and laws show how reality actually is. Science has no talking donkeys, no flat earth, no females from a male's rib, and no ridiculous crucifixion resurrection story. All that shit, that doesn't really exist and never really happened is from your bible. Science shows what is and helps us determine what is common sense. Christianity is just a lie. It's lies have no basis in reality so they have to use fear or guilt to keep people believing it. Fear like YOU used against us....lies like 'enjoy your burn.' That is what assholes say when someone isnt buying their lie. It's a last ditch effort to get us to conform to your beliefs. Your last ditch effort failed. Your only real beef with science, Johnny, is that it actually makes sense...and that makes it hard for you to believe your Christian fairytale. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 16, 2022 Share Posted July 16, 2022 On 7/15/2022 at 5:12 AM, TABA said: let’s assume for argument’s sake that the universe was created by some intelligence, some being. Show me why that's an assumption. All you do is ignore the evidence I put in front of you then you act as if you care about truth. If you don't believe in a supernatural creator, then don't pretend to care about evidence which one it is. You showed your reputation of not caring about evidence. Look at all that I gave to you in my reply, not to mention all that I gave to others in replies, and you just IGNORE it. You love ignoring all we know and just say we don't know yet. Wow, that is really some evidence you have there. You will NOT admit that you have no answers to the evidence that shows you're wrong. Look at all your other members. They don't have anything to show with science how creation got around the laws I gave, nor the fine-tuning, nor how we got life, and nor explaining how we got HSR. You all run from it. You run because you really don't care to give such things any serious thought. You all like to pretend to think and follow science. I'm just having fun pointing out the obvious which is ALWAYS the case with your type that all you have is bluff. You have nothing. As I shared already, if any of you have children they sure got unlucky with a parent that loves their empty pride more than they love the truth to teach them this could not have come about on its own. 19 hours ago, midniterider said: Saying "this could not have happened because of 1LT or 2LT" does not mean "God of the bible did it." That is a non-sequitur fallacy. It does not follow. There is no connection whatsoever between those two ideas. Did you get your logic skills from a Cracker Jack box? Look at this joke of a reply. I put that once a person accepts that there had to be a supernatural creator going by the evidence, then the next step is going by the evidence of what or who that supernatural creator is. If you don't believe there is one going by the evidence, you won't put any serious effort in looking or knowing which one. Look at the crap given to me. All you people can do is lie. It's your only resource since you don't have evidence for your naturalistic beliefs. I take pleasure in showing what fakes you are. It's fun and also so easy. Come on, haven't ANY of you ever thought about sex?! Are you all so afraid to show that at some point in your life that you gave the process of how you got here some thought? You can't be honest or logical on creation, fine-tuning, how we got life, but just give some logic to how we evolved to get HSR. How shallow can you all be?! Again... We have human sexual reproduction (HSR). We know a whole lot about it. Many of us experimented with it. Since you believe in goo-to-you evolution, give a logical explanation with proof of how HSR came about. Here's an example: We had this asexual something that got here by a natural creation that's impossible, the universe formed by some other impossible feat, it gave life by some other impossible feat and somehow gave another impossible feat of an asexual something that eventually mutated a bump, another asexual something eventually mutating a hole, this went on and on of umpteen years, and by mere chance somehow mated from the sexual organs that somehow formed by mere chance not even knowing they were needed so that.........it eventually led to HSR. Sure it's going to be a LONG story and I can't imagine how it could be possible but since you believe it, you better have a good explanation. I don't want theories that answer nothing, I want a logical story with proof to back it up. Since you claim it all came about naturally, then give your natural explanation. You want to put a picture of what you chose me to be as some doofus, so show SOMETHING that you've given at least sex some thought since you can't do it on anything else. It's rather hard to give your good old standby, we don't know yet, on something we KNOW. So explain the process or for once admit, you don't really ever care about being serious, you all just like to pretend to think, but that would take honesty and you all hate being honest with evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 16, 2022 Share Posted July 16, 2022 We are just going to have to agree to disagree, Johnny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 16, 2022 Share Posted July 16, 2022 On 7/15/2022 at 5:21 AM, TABA said: On 7/14/2022 at 9:55 PM, Johnny said: convinced - completely certain about something. No Johnny, that is not what I mean by “convinced”, and that is not how the word is typically used. By “convinced” I mean I am satisfied beyond reasonable doubt. “Convinced” is a very commonly used word, and your attempt to stretch its meaning into something else strikes me as dishonest. Well, you better go show who ever came up with that definition that they are doing something that is an attempt to stretch its meaning into something else strikes you as dishonest. Go get in touch with them.... Dictionary Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more con·vinced /kənˈvinst/ adjective completely certain about something. "she was not entirely convinced of the soundness of his motives" firm in one's belief with regard to a particular cause or issue. "a convinced pacifist" ----------------------------- What else can you lie about? You, like the others, are really into lying and being so fearful what you write and when I ask you to back it up....you run. You have the balls to put a picture representing me with the caption, "Where's my brain?" so, show some brains and reply to what I gave you. You are fine with disgracing me but you actually have nothing to disgrace me with. I'm enjoying disgracing you and your fellows. At least be honest with your site title and call it, Ex-Thinkers. On 7/15/2022 at 5:21 AM, TABA said: So yes, I am convinced - satisfied beyond reasonable doubt - that there is no omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent deity. I am happy to discuss why I believe that, but you seem to have no interest in that particular topic. Wow, lying sure comes EASY to you. I gave evidence for creation and life not being able to come about naturally. Your side gave science fiction. That has been covered. So, you have NO integrity. You are a joke who just lies and lies. You RUN from even a simple thing that shows that you jokes think that on HSR, and that will NOT be touched. Well, screw you, if you want to lie about me, show me where you covered it. Here it is again on the topic YOU run from along with the other topics you won't reply to that I'll put further below. As you'll see (but you ran from that too), you put...."I take an interest in science, cosmology etc but much of it is over my head." You do NOT take interest in it as I have shown. You have interest in having NO science to back up your beliefs. You...."In a pre-scientific era, it was only reasonable that humans would have invented gods to explain how things came to be, and how things work." I showed if that was the case, then you know science that shows they were wrong but you can't. You like to use the word science as if you care about it but when you're pressed to do so, you run and come up with more lies to try to cover your own words. On 7/15/2022 at 5:21 AM, TABA said: Your entire christian belief system evidently hangs on your conviction that evolution by natural selection is false and that life cannot have come from non-life. No surprise there, another lie from you. I made it clear that once I decided that NO way could this happen naturally, that the next step was finding who or what had the evidence of being that supernatural power that did it You jokes can't get past the first step so you lie and lie. So screw you and the horse you rode in on. Your lying is getting very old. You refuse to show what I covered and then you LIE with your "Your entire christian belief system evidently hangs on your conviction that evolution by natural selection is false and that life cannot have come from non-life." Hey liar, when are you ever going to actually respond to me? You are a disgrace with the stunts you pull along with your other brats. Oh, but that somehow ticks you jokes off. You're of such high reputation to give that picture representing me with that caption. What lying hypocrites you all are. How long will you run from this, you wimp?... Posted Thursday at 09:55 PM On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: Without a belief in a god, how do I think I came to exist? How do I think the universe came to exist? Or if it always existed, what makes it all work? What keeps it going? I’m an engineer, but I’m not a scientist. I'm not a scientists but I showed how science works by it must be observable, repeatable, and falsifiable. None of 'your' scientists can show that creation and life happened by natural means by following science. I gave science that showed it can't happen naturally. Recently I gave an example that none of you want to touch, how we even got human sexual reproduction by evolution. On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: I take an interest in science, cosmology etc but much of it is over my head. If you took interest in science, then why don't you follow it? On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: I understand how stars and planets are born and die. You do? Do tell how they are 'born.' The 2LT can't be in effect then. You also somehow bypassed the 1LT. So explain how you understand. On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: I understand how evolution by natural selection causes new varieties of life to emerge. It had to start somewhere with life existing and I gave science that we can't get life without life. You go by when EVERYTHING is there for you THEN somehow your brain kicks in but you clearly show you want to ignore all the had to come before, and what had to come before is not possible. YOU believe it all happened naturally yet have NO evidence to support that. Also give evidence that by natural selection causes new varieties of life to emerge. That they grew in complexity and in information. Do explain too how this got around the 2LT. On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: Regardless of which option - if either -is true, I became convinced several years ago that there is no deity involving itself in the world of humans. How can you be "convinced" when you have NO evidence for a naturalistic/materialistic belief for all this? convinced - completely certain about something. On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: No, I don’t. On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: I suppose it could. My point is, you are not convinced. "I became convinced several years ago that there is no deity involving itself in the world of humans." You have no way of being convinced of such a thing. We not only have creation and life on earth, but we also have a finely-tuned universe that gives us life on earth. That just another thing against you that you have to assume 'just happened naturally' but can't give evidence how that can be. On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: Men are often promiscuous and do not like to stay around to raise their offspring, for example, because that is how they evolved by natural selection, to pass on their genes, not to make them or anybody else happy in the process. I asked how that happened but it's ignored. We have human sexual reproduction (HSR). We know a whole lot about it. Many of us experimented with it. Since you believe in goo-to-you evolution, give a logical explanation with proof of how HSR came about. Here's an example: We had this asexual something that got here by a natural creation that's impossible, the universe formed by some other impossible feat, it gave life by some other impossible feat and somehow gave another impossible feat of an asexual something that eventually mutated a bump, another asexual something eventually mutating a hole, this went on and on of umpteen years, and by mere chance somehow mated from the sexual organs that somehow formed by mere chance not even knowing they were needed so that.........it eventually led to HSR. Sure it's going to be a LONG story and I can't imagine how it could be possible but since you believe it, you better have a good explanation. I don't want theories that answer nothing, I want a logical story with proof to back it up. Since you claim it all came about naturally, then give your natural explanation. On 7/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, TABA said: In a pre-scientific era, it was only reasonable that humans would have invented gods to explain how things came to be, and how things work. How can humans invent gods and these gods gave us miracles man can't do? Let's say that god is the God of the bible. How can that God invented by pre-scientific era of people know that it took such a God to create? Science backs up it can't happen naturally. How can these pre-scientific era of people know that life can't arise on its own? How can these pre-scientific era of people know that there is a limit in change? You claimed you take an interest in science but you have no science to show your claim that these were pre-scientific era of people, otherwise you'd use science to show that they didn't know about science. Again, if going by the God of the bible, God inspired them what to write so either that God got the science wrong or got it right. This is a new thread and the only one I see singled out is me. As I mentioned, I've clearly have shown just touching on a sparse number of topics thus far, the evidence makes it clear, we did not get all this by natural means. Naturally lost 100%. If people want to fight that then evidence is needed to fight it, not just we don't know yet and what we know is ignored. That shows a clear bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 16, 2022 Share Posted July 16, 2022 On 7/15/2022 at 10:12 AM, TABA said: let’s assume for argument’s sake that the universe was created by some intelligence, some being. Show me why that's an assumption. All you do is ignore the evidence I put in front of you then you act as if you care about truth. If you don't believe in a supernatural creator, then don't pretend to care about evidence which one it is. You showed your reputation of not caring about evidence. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Johnny, TABA was asking you to join him in the assumption that the universe was created by some intelligence and then to proceed in your discussion on that basis. But you have refused to do this. If the evidence is all on your side and clearly shows exactly what you are saying, what harm will it do you to make this assumption? You have nothing to lose by doing this and everything to gain, because wherever you and TABA go in your discussion, you are still right, aren't you? Therefore, why not join TABA in the assumption that the universe was created by some intelligence and then proceed in your discussion on that basis? Even if you know the truth it can do you no harm to make this assumption for TABA's benefit. So, will join him in this assumption and proceed from there? Thank you, Walter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 On 7/14/2022 at 10:03 PM, Johnny said: Somehow someone felt such a picture representing me gives credence like I'm some sort of nut job. Johnny, I don't think you're crazy. I do think that you've invested so much of your life in Christianity that you are currently not capable of seeing reality through a non-Christian lens, and that our lack of belief has stirred up a rather uncomely visceral reaction in you that does no honour to your beliefs. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TABA Posted July 17, 2022 Author Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2022 I started this topic to point out that my rejection of christianity and theism does not depend on whether or not the universe and life exist because of some kind of deity. Visitor Johnny has being making the case that a deity is required and that this invalidates any rejection of christianity or belief in a personal deity (theism). He has also more recently indulged in name-calling and subject changing to avoid addressing the subject of this and other threads. As of yesterday, all his posts are now subject to moderator review. He wrote several posts in this thread earlier today but they have been deleted because they were composed of more name-calling, pasting of previous material, and subject-changing. If Johnny wishes to engage with this or any other thread in a reasonable manner, he may still do so. His previous posts are still visible for the audience to evaluate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 On 7/17/2022 at 2:32 PM, TABA said: If Johnny wishes to engage with this or any other thread in a reasonable manner, he may still do so. His previous posts are still visible for the audience to evaluate. The great news is, no matter what you all erase, you can't erase what you have coming to you. I very harsh judgment with the God you fight to ignore, then....your final The End being thrown into the lake of fire to be no more. Not even in memory. As I mentioned, any of your children sure got a bad parent. You all hate truth and you'll lie even to your children. You won't give praise to God. So....in the end, you lose, I win. Note from Moderator: This post has been edited to remove previously-posted material, in accordance with the restrictions currently in effect on this individual. The statements that remain above are passed through verbatim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 Johnny, Surely, as a true Christian shouldn't you give god ALL the glory? So, would you like to alter what you said about who wins and who loses? That the true victory here is god's and not yours? Thank you, Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 19, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted July 19, 2022 11 hours ago, Johnny said: The great news is, no matter what you all erase, you can't erase what you have coming to you. I very harsh judgment with the God you fight to ignore, then....your final The End being thrown into the lake of fire to be no more. Not even in memory. As I mentioned, any of your children sure got a bad parent. You all hate truth and you'll lie even to your children. You won't give praise to God. So....in the end, you lose, I win. This concept of “sin” and “punishment” is yet another reason I do not accept the god of the bible. It is yet another tenet of my firm position that the god of the bible is evil. If we weed through Johnny’s accusations, ad hominems, misapplied science–if we dig down beyond all of that–the crux of his entire apologetic here is the assertion that god created everything. And it is just an assertion, without any sound support. But let’s, for a moment, take his assertion at face value and run with it. If god created everything that exists, and sin exists, then god created sin. Oh, sure, it’s people who commit sin; but it ain’t people who created it. I drive a pickup truck; but I didn’t build it. I’m currently typing on a computer that I didn’t create and don’t even own. Even if I make the spaghetti that I eat, I didn’t actually roll out the pasta noodles, nor did I simmer the tomatoes, basil and garlic into a sauce, nor did I grow, slaughter, and prepare the meat used in the meatballs. I simply took what already existed and did something with it. So, even if I commit what someone might consider a sin, I didn’t create that sin. If that sin exists, and everything that exists was created by god, then that sin must have been created by god. But to what purpose? The christian religion would have us believe that god’s ultimate plan was to redeem us all through the blood of his son. But why did we need redemption in the first place? Here is where the cosmic sleight of hand comes into play. We are told we need redemption because we are born into sin; but no one ever mentions how that sin got there in the first place. It’s simply a condition that was thrust upon us, without our consent or power to control; and we are expected to just accept that it’s just the way it is. But how can such a condition exist, if god created everything that exists? So we’re told this fanciful story about Adam and Eve, a talking snake, and a magical apple. And we’re invited to believe that god created everything perfect; but Adam and Eve fucked it up by bringing evil into the world. The most immediate question is: how could Adam and Eve have known that eating the fruit was evil, if the only way they could know the difference between good and evil… was to eat the fruit? And how could eating the fruit provide the knowledge of good and evil, unless good and evil already existed? And again, how could evil exist unless god created it? So the cosmic sleight of hand is to always keep our attention focused on what WE supposedly did, so that we never look too closely at what gOD did. He created the evil, put it there in the garden, and then tricked us into using it. Now he wants to “punish” us for it. So, how exactly is it that punishing us for a situation that god created in the first place, demonstrate that god is loving, merciful, and just? Here's where we are told that god will save those who call upon him and accept him; so hellfire and damnation is the just punishment for those who reject him. But, why would god show such hatred and contempt for those who find it difficult to believe these farcical myths about salvation? Why would god show such hatred and contempt for those who never heard of him; or who were born into a culture that followed a different religion than his? This god, who will punish those who reject him, made this commandment for us all to follow: 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Luke 6 Is this god living up to his own commandment? By condemning his enemies to eternal hellfire and brimstone? Or does this god expect us to do as he says; but not as he does? Should god be measured by the standard of his words, or his actions, or both? And if his words contradict his actions, what then? If he expects us to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us, but he, himself, throws his enemies into the lake of everlasting fire for all eternity and punishes those who persecute him with eternal damnation, then is he really a god worth believing in, accepting, and worshipping? Or is he just a tantrum-throwing hypocrite? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: Johnny, Surely, as a true Christian shouldn't you give god ALL the glory? So, would you like to alter what you said about who wins and who loses? That the true victory here is god's and not yours? Thank you, Walter. Johnny sounds prideful. As if he personally wants us to burn. What a psycho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: This concept of “sin” and “punishment” is yet another reason I do not accept the god of the bible. It is yet another tenet of my firm position that the god of the bible is evil. If we weed through Johnny’s accusations, ad hominems, misapplied science–if we dig down beyond all of that–the crux of his entire apologetic here is the assertion that god created everything. And it is just an assertion, without any sound support. But let’s, for a moment, take his assertion at face value and run with it. If god created everything that exists, and sin exists, then god created sin. Oh, sure, it’s people who commit sin; but it ain’t people who created it. I drive a pickup truck; but I didn’t build it. I’m currently typing on a computer that I didn’t create and don’t even own. Even if I make the spaghetti that I eat, I didn’t actually roll out the pasta noodles, nor did I simmer the tomatoes, basil and garlic into a sauce, nor did I grow, slaughter, and prepare the meat used in the meatballs. I simply took what already existed and did something with it. So, even if I commit what someone might consider a sin, I didn’t create that sin. If that sin exists, and everything that exists was created by god, then that sin must have been created by god. But to what purpose? The christian religion would have us believe that god’s ultimate plan was to redeem us all through the blood of his son. But why did we need redemption in the first place? Here is where the cosmic sleight of hand comes into play. We are told we need redemption because we are born into sin; but no one ever mentions how that sin got there in the first place. It’s simply a condition that was thrust upon us, without our consent or power to control; and we are expected to just accept that it’s just the way it is. But how can such a condition exist, if god created everything that exists? So we’re told this fanciful story about Adam and Eve, a talking snake, and a magical apple. And we’re invited to believe that god created everything perfect; but Adam and Eve fucked it up by bringing evil into the world. The most immediate question is: how could Adam and Eve have known that eating the fruit was evil, if the only way they could know the difference between good and evil… was to eat the fruit? And how could eating the fruit provide the knowledge of good and evil, unless good and evil already existed? And again, how could evil exist unless god created it? So the cosmic sleight of hand is to always keep our attention focused on what WE supposedly did, so that we never look too closely at what gOD did. He created the evil, put it there in the garden, and then tricked us into using it. Now he wants to “punish” us for it. So, how exactly is it that punishing us for a situation that god created in the first place, demonstrate that god is loving, merciful, and just? Here's where we are told that god will save those who call upon him and accept him; so hellfire and damnation is the just punishment for those who reject him. But, why would god show such hatred and contempt for those who find it difficult to believe these farcical myths about salvation? Why would god show such hatred and contempt for those who never heard of him; or who were born into a culture that followed a different religion than his? This god, who will punish those who reject him, made this commandment for us all to follow: 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Luke 6 Is this god living up to his own commandment? By condemning his enemies to eternal hellfire and brimstone? Or does this god expect us to do as he says; but not as he does? Should god be measured by the standard of his words, or his actions, or both? And if his words contradict his actions, what then? If he expects us to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us, but he, himself, throws his enemies into the lake of everlasting fire for all eternity and punishes those who persecute him with eternal damnation, then is he really a god worth believing in, accepting, and worshipping? Or is he just a tantrum-throwing hypocrite? God presents this morality, shows reasoning for it, then does the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TABA Posted July 19, 2022 Author Moderator Share Posted July 19, 2022 19 hours ago, Johnny said: The great news is, no matter what you all erase, you can't erase what you have coming to you. I very harsh judgment with the God you fight to ignore, then....your final The End being thrown into the lake of fire to be no more. Not even in memory. Johnny, Your tone has changed dramatically since you first arrived. You seem shocked that we haven’t reconsidered our positions in the light of your challenge. But our rejection of christianity is wide-ranging, based on arguments related to history and morality, among others. Some people initially deconvert based on rather narrow grounds. One thing this community does is provide additional knowledge and arguments. We sometimes refer to it as building up people’s immunity to christianity. Achieving this is key to a happy post-christian life. Many have joined us over the years and only a vanishingly small number have returned to the faith. I have always felt that the best proponents for christianity are those who acknowledge the problems, such as the problem of suffering and the apparent contradictions within scripture, but who choose to believe anyway because it makes their lives better. Those who try to prove the truth of the bible, or who try to explain away and deny the problems, find themselves losing out to us, at least in the eyes of people who have started to question. Many of us started out trying to make it all fit together. I would never have asked questions if I had known it would lead me to atheism. I wanted to believe. But eventually I wanted to know the truth more than I wanted my beliefs vindicated. I’m now glad I took that path. I don’t have any hard feelings toward you Johnny, in spite of the anger you have shown toward me and others lately. I just think you came here unprepared to engage us effectively. Even if you are satisfied that the truth - and god himself - are on your side - you have not changed any minds as far as I can see. You may be familiar with this scripture passage… Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV[4] It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [5] who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age [6] and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace Now, since I don’t believe this god exists, scripture is irrelevant to me, and in any case I HAVE seen one or two people return to christianity after professing atheism. But YOU do believe scripture, right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 20, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted July 20, 2022 Dafuq? Is somebody still enjoying or learning anything from these encounters with a small, recalcitrant box of rocks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 It's just warped entertainment, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted July 20, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 20, 2022 On 7/19/2022 at 1:47 PM, Johnny said: The great news is, no matter what you all erase, you can't erase what you have coming to you. I very harsh judgment with the God you fight to ignore, then....your final The End being thrown into the lake of fire to be no more. Not even in memory. You are going to need more than baseless threats. You might as well threaten us that the noodly appendage (PBUH) will spank us. On 7/19/2022 at 1:47 PM, Johnny said: As I mentioned, any of your children sure got a bad parent. You all hate truth and you'll lie even to your children. You won't give praise to God. So....in the end, you lose, I win. Delusional much? I haven't bothered reading the prior drivel of your posts, but at any point did you actually present actual evidence for your claims, or just do your usual Christian "fire and brimstone be upon thee heathens!" shtick. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 20, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted July 20, 2022 6 hours ago, florduh said: Dafuq? Is somebody still enjoying or learning anything from these encounters with a small, recalcitrant box of rocks? Here's the thing: imagine being a christian scientist, not the Tom Cruise kind, but an actual scientist who also happened to believe in the christian religion. The Holy Grail of your entire career would be finding evidence that a god outside of time, space, and the universe existed and that god created all of it. You'd publish your findings in every scientific journal out there. Your face would be on the cover of TIME magazine. Nobel prize and the whole god damn nine yard shebang. Yet, not a single person ever has. In the hundreds of years that proper science has been around, not a single person has ever produced a single scrap of evidence to support the existence of a god or that a god created anything. We have amassed science upon science to support evolution, gravity, and quantum mechanics; and we still study those fields because we realize there is so much more to learn and we are only just beginning to understand. But not even a shred of evidence for god... Now imagine, after all of that failure--hundreds of thousands of christian men and women in the scientific community unable to publish a single article in support of god after decade upon decade of dedicated study--and after all of that... ...some random internet clown starts squawking about the motherfucking laws of thermodynamics and shit. Now, just take a moment to savor that thought. Thousands of years of religion, hundreds of years of science have produced nothing; but this Johnny-come-lately seriously entertains the delusion that he's going to convince us with entropy and the conservation of god damn matter and energy. As if not a single one of the REAL scientists ever thought of it. And when his misapplication of his misunderstood science failed to do the trick, all he had left was hurling insults and threatening us with eternal hellfire, like a god damn baboon flinging feces at his enemies. Yeah, it's fascinating. To me, at least. Probably not for the reasons Johnny was hoping it would be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 20, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted July 20, 2022 21 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: You might as well threaten us that the noodly appendage (PBUH) will spank us. I hope you still find it funny when the Six Nippled One (Glorify Her Name) peels the flesh from your body with her razor sharp claws. Heretic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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