Suffering for the Sins of the World

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

BTW, The reason I used childhood cancer is because the Bible does say that it is appointed for man once to die and that no one can live for more than 120 years. So at some point a person must die. So praying over a 110 year old woman with cancer would be a justified unanswered prayer in my opinion. Because other prophesies would need to be fulfilled as well. It could be said that an older person dying of cancer is their appointed way to go. 

 

But children presumably have their whole life ahead of them. Especially small children. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

9 hours ago, mwc said:

 

 Actually following any argument over this stretch is usually more trouble than it's worth.

 

 

The term that came to my mind is, "beating a dead horse".

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

So I see this disturbing photo on this thread of a dangling little dead girl. My initial thought is, "this is kind of over the top", and it seems to have stuck in MWC's head ... but I decided we needed to shoot Ed down with it so I moved on and forgot about it. 

That particular post came with a heavy price.  It took nearly an hour to write those few short paragraphs; because I kept breaking down and having to stop and collect myself.  Every sentence.  Every line took a toll.  I knew the emotional impact that post would have; and, as I've already said, it was intentional.

 

For me, 6.5 million Jews seems like an astronomical number of nameless, faceless entities.  The more than 50,000 women and young girls forced into rape camps in Bosnia during the 90s... an astronomical number of nameless, faceless entities.  The emotional impact gets lost in the shear volume of the atrocity.  That's why I wanted to put a specific name and a specific face to the horror of child sex slavery (I know, the face was blurred out in the photo; but I'm sure you understand my meaning).  Because I wanted that specific impact. 

 

Was that particular post an appeal to emotion?  Or was it merely a post that had a strong emotional impact?   Is any argument that has an emotional element automatically an appeal to emotion?  Or, can an example that elicits strong emotion be used in support of a larger argument without the entire argument being summarily dismissed as an appeal to emotion?

 

Because, again, the argument is simply:  if evil exists, and god exists, then god cannot be what the bible describes.

 

There is no emotion in the argument itself, only a logical formula that leads to a reasonable conclusion.

[walterpthefirst]

Because, again, the argument is simply:  if evil exists, and god exists, then god cannot be what the bible describes.

 

There is no emotion in the argument itself, only a logical formula that leads to a reasonable conclusion.

 

 

This is worth repeating, not just because I agree with it but also because this is the line I've tried to take in this thread.  My argument is not driven by emotion but is simply a logical formula that leads to a reasonable conclusion. It runs like this...

 

1.  Take what the bible says about god's qualities, nature and personality at face value.

2.  Take what the bible says about how god acted and how god didn't act at face value.

3.  Compare 1 and 2 in the context of Satan harming Adam and Eve.

4.  Ask if god's inaction allowed Satan to harm Adam and Eve.

5.  The reasonable conclusion is that it did.

6.  Ask if god allowing them to come to harm agrees with what the bible says about him being a loving father.

7.  The reasonable conclusion is that he allowed them to come to harm.

8.  Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that he is not a loving father.  No loving father would allow this.

9.  Ask if it was therefore god's intent for them to come to harm.

10.  The reasonable conclusion is that god intended them to be harmed.  Because he had the foreknowledge, means, power and opportunity to shield them from harm.

11.  Ask if god can really be all good if he foreknew, intended and allowed his children to be harmed.

12.  The final reasonable conclusion is that god is not all good, but must be evil.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[midniterider]

So Walter is simply solving for X like in an algebra problem. He has no emotional stake in the game?

 

RNP uses an emotionally charged photo to help bolster a logical formula and it's logical conclusion. 

 

Yes, you two are just doing science here. I should have known that.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

19 minutes ago, midniterider said:

So Walter is simply solving for X like in an algebra problem. He has no emotional stake in the game?

 

RNP uses an emotionally charged photo to help bolster a logical formula and it's logical conclusion. 

 

Yes, you two are just doing science here. I should have known that.

 

 

Have it your way, sport.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

So Walter is simply solving for X like in an algebra problem. He has no emotional stake in the game?

 

RNP uses an emotionally charged photo to help bolster a logical formula and it's logical conclusion. 

 

Yes, you two are just doing science here. I should have known that.

 

 

 

With all due respect midniterider...

 

Even though we may not agree about my emotional stake in my argument  -  if it helps even one person to leave Christianity behind, then wasn't it worth me making it?

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

"Appeals to emotion include appeals to fear, envy, hatred, pity, pride, and more. It's important to note that sometimes a logically coherent argument may inspire emotion or have an emotional aspect, but the problem and fallacy occurs when emotion is used instead of a logical argument, or to obscure the fact that no compelling rational reason exists for one's position. Everyone, bar sociopaths, is affected by emotion, and so appeals to emotion are a very common and effective argument tactic, but they're ultimately flawed, dishonest, and tend to make one's opponents justifiably emotional."  https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion

[TheRedneckProfessor]

"Non-fallacious uses of the ad misericordiam include arguments where the appeal to pity or a related emotion is the subject of the argument or is a pertinent or germane reason for acceptance of the conclusion."  https://philosophy.lander.edu/scireas/emotion.html

[TheRedneckProfessor]

"Appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone uses emotional appeals, such as pity, fear, and joy, instead of relevant facts and logic to support a claim."  https://fallacyinlogic.com/appeal-to-emotion/

[TheRedneckProfessor]

"We made the case at the beginning of this chapter that emotion is a legitimate part of argument."

 

"To be legitimate, emotional appeals need to be associated with logical reasoning. Otherwise, they are an unfair tactic. The emotions should be attached to ideas that logically support the argument." 

 

 https://human.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Composition/Advanced_Composition/Book%3A_How_Arguments_Work_-_A_Guide_to_Writing_and_Analyzing_Texts_in_College_(Mills)/08%3A_How_Arguments_Appeal_to_Emotion_(Pathos)/8.07%3A_Legitimate_and_Illegitimate_Emotional_Appeals

[TheRedneckProfessor]

"Emotional language can certainly affect readers, but even the most fervent appeals to values and sympathies may feel too abstract without examples. To feel connected to an argument, readers need to be able to imagine what it means in some particular case. Writers can bring an example to life by describing a scene, developing a character, or building suspense and ending with a dramatic resolution."

 

https://human.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Composition/Advanced_Composition/Book%3A_How_Arguments_Work_-_A_Guide_to_Writing_and_Analyzing_Texts_in_College_(Mills)/08%3A_How_Arguments_Appeal_to_Emotion_(Pathos)/8.03%3A_Powerful_Examples

[TheRedneckProfessor]

"In one oversimplified view, logic is a good way to decide things and listening to emotions is a bad way. We might make this assumption if we tell ourselves or others, “Stop and think. You’re getting too emotional.” According to this view, no one reasons well under the influence of emotion. Pure ideas are king, and feelings only distort them.

 

Of course, sometimes emotions do lead us astray. But emotions and logic can work together."

 

----------------

 

"Not all arguments are as intense as that one. Many, such as scientific journal articles, are calm and dispassionate. But all arguments must call on emotion, broadly defined, because they must motivate readers to stay engaged. Even a captive audience could potentially tune out. Every argument needs a reason to exist, a reason why it is important or relevant or just worth reading. It needs to keep us interested, or, failing that, to keep us convinced that reading on will be worthwhile. This reason to exist is sometimes called exigence. An argument can create exigence and motivate readers in many ways, but all these ways depend on emotion."

 

https://human.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Composition/Advanced_Composition/Book%3A_How_Arguments_Work_-_A_Guide_to_Writing_and_Analyzing_Texts_in_College_(Mills)/08%3A_How_Arguments_Appeal_to_Emotion_(Pathos)/8.01%3A_The_Place_of_Emotion_in_Argument

[midniterider]

It seems like the hanging photo was deployed when logical argument was failing to have an effect on Ed. Well, the photo had an effect. 

 

Perhaps a lurker on the edge of deconversion will be helped to slide towards exchristianity this way...or maybe a lurker will just be repulsed. Who knows?

 

Years ago, the ex made me watch these videos on partial birth abortion to see how horrible and wrong it was. Didn't change my mind. I just didn't talk abortion anymore with her. 

 

Before that , Mom sent me gross photos of mouth cancer victims because I chewed tobacco back then. Sorry, didn't work. I eventually quit cuz I was tired of doing it. 

 

 

 

Anyway, the photo is not the end of the world. I just don't find the crusade against Christianity all that important anymore. 

 

Time to go play video games.