Suffering for the Sins of the World

[duderonomy]

50 minutes ago, Weezer said:

 

No rules to live by.  Just some insights into human behavior.

 

Games People Play by Eric Berne.  I'll find a synopsis and some reviews, and check it out.

[duderonomy]

On 8/22/2022 at 6:56 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

How, who, and why did you have in mind when you asked the question?

 

By my computer, all of yas, and I'm not sure why I had in mind when I asked that question.

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I think it bears pointing out that in order for the magical fruit to give Adam the knowledge of good and evil, both good and evil had to exist prior to Adam eating it.  Sure, the apologist will claim that "sin" did not exist prior to eating the fruit, and only came into the world by way of Adam's rebellion.  But the tree did not bear fruit of the knowledge of sin and righteousness; it bore fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.  Attempting to conflate sin with evil is dishonest and goes against what the text actually says.  Evil had to have already been created in order for the fruit to give Adam the knowledge of it.  If evil already existed in a world that had only just been created and declared "good" by god, then there is only one explanation as to how evil came about.  god created it.  And god called it "good."

[walterpthefirst]

4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I think it bears pointing out that in order for the magical fruit to give Adam the knowledge of good and evil, both good and evil had to exist prior to Adam eating it.  Sure, the apologist will claim that "sin" did not exist prior to eating the fruit, and only came into the world by way of Adam's rebellion.  But the tree did not bear fruit of the knowledge of sin and righteousness; it bore fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.  Attempting to conflate sin with evil is dishonest and goes against what the text actually says.  Evil had to have already been created in order for the fruit to give Adam the knowledge of it.  If evil already existed in a world that had only just been created and declared "good" by god, then there is only one explanation as to how evil came about.  god created it.  And god called it "good."

 

Scripture confirms your logic, Prof.

 

Genesis 3 : 20 - 24 

 

20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 

23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 

24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

So, good and evil clearly existed IN GOD before Adam and Eve were created.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

From another thread:  Then the next question is, is there a component in our "system" that allows for free will and also a component that gives us the opportunity to escape the finite option.  The take home message is we don't know, but that we could allow for them through faith.  Given we don't understand the universe, it only makes sense that we might allow for free will and eternal life.

 

Appears as though the free will moved us into a finite situation and free will might move us out of the same.  

[Edgarcito]

2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Scripture confirms your logic, Prof.

 

Genesis 3 : 20 - 24 

 

20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 

23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 

24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

So, good and evil clearly existed IN GOD before Adam and Eve were created.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

This one verse, 22, is especially interesting.  Once man fails the free will test, then it's almost like God says, well, we can't let them have eternal life because they failed the damn test.  Seems rather consistent that having A&E not failed, they wouldn't have been locked out.  Just interesting to me that this seemingly agrees with my theory that God uses free will to as a ticket to eternal life......"e-ticket".  You see what I did there Walter, e-ticket?  You aren't from the states so it might not make sense.

 

So again, I'm asking myself what component(s) does humanity have that gives us the quality of free will.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

"You can choose anything you want; but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, I'll cast you into eternal hellfire and brimstone."  ~god, on the subject of "free will"

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

"You can choose anything you want; but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, I'll cast you into eternal hellfire and brimstone."  ~god, on the subject of "free will"

So what's the definition of Jesus.  I am the what? And do you choose the definition or do you choose your ego.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

So what's the definition of Jesus.

jesus is the option god demands we choose in order to not be thrown into hell.  The point being, we do not actually have free will.  We have the option of choosing what god wants or suffering consequences that far outweigh the choice.  This is not free will; it is emotional blackmail, coercion, and manipulation.  I choose my own integrity over this kind of abuse.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

But, what else should we expect from a god who created evil and then called it "good"?

[Edgarcito]

4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

jesus is the option god demands we choose in order to not be thrown into hell.  The point being, we do not actually have free will.  We have the option of choosing what god wants or suffering consequences that far outweigh the choice.  This is not free will; it is emotional blackmail, coercion, and manipulation.  I choose my own integrity over this kind of abuse.

"my own integrity".  What in the wide wide world of sports gives you the impression that your own integrity provides us with the damn apex.  Jesus dude.  You hang out in your world and do that and see how long you last.  I've got years on you and experience, and you will one day come to the conclusion that "your own integrity" is not what you thought it was as a young man.  But keep on, the Bible mentions several times of testing to see if you will choose the correct qualities, which most of the time leaves out "self".  

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

From another thread:  Then the next question is, is there a component in our "system" that allows for free will and also a component that gives us the opportunity to escape the finite option.  The take home message is we don't know, but that we could allow for them through faith.  Given we don't understand the universe, it only makes sense that we might allow for free will and eternal life.

 

Appears as though the free will moved us into a finite situation and free will might move us out of the same.  

 

If you want to believe in free will and eternal life by faith Ed, that's up to you.  But what does the evidence say?   

 

It tells us that we do not know if we have free will or not.  If that question could have been settled with evidence, why have philosophers and deep thinkers struggled with it for thousands of years?  The simple answer is that we just don't know for sure that we have free will and there's no compelling evidence to say that we do.

 

And what evidence is there for eternal life?  The contents of various holy books, which require their readers to believe them by faith, without the benefit of evidence. So, once again we do not have evidence that such a thing as eternal life exists, let alone the possibility of us gaining it.

 

Therefore, surely the most reasonable and rational path for us to take is one guided by the evidence?  Not one unguided by an absence of evidence.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

This one verse, 22, is especially interesting.  Once man fails the free will test, then it's almost like God says, well, we can't let them have eternal life because they failed the damn test.  Seems rather consistent that having A&E not failed, they wouldn't have been locked out.  Just interesting to me that this seemingly agrees with my theory that God uses free will to as a ticket to eternal life......"e-ticket".  You see what I did there Walter, e-ticket?  You aren't from the states so it might not make sense.

 

So again, I'm asking myself what component(s) does humanity have that gives us the quality of free will.

 

Let me ask you this, Ed.

 

Do you think there was anything god should have done to ensure the fairness of his test?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

"my own integrity".  What in the wide wide world of sports gives you the impression that your own integrity provides us with the damn apex.  Jesus dude.  You hang out in your world and do that and see how long you last.  I've got years on you and experience, and you will one day come to the conclusion that "your own integrity" is not what you thought it was as a young man.  But keep on, the Bible mentions several times of testing to see if you will choose the correct qualities, which most of the time leaves out "self".  

Was this personal attack the result of you not wanting to face the fact that your god is an abusive tyrant?  Because we both know I never indicated that my personal integrity was any kind of apex; or, for that matter, even a standard by with others should be measured. 

 

Your god is evil, Ed.  Deal with it without taking your anger out on us. 

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

So what's the definition of Jesus.  I am the what? And do you choose the definition or do you choose your ego.

 

The Jesus option was not available to those who needed it most, when it mattered the most.  In Eden.

 

And even then that option only became available after thousands of years of worldwide suffering, disease and death.  And then, only to the inhabitants of a small Middle Eastern country.  And it only reached the other parts of the world v-e-r-y slowly, as Christian missionaries carried the Word on foot, on horseback and by sailing ship.  Leaving the rest of the world without a hope of eternal life, but the certainty of eternal hellfire.

 

The Prof wrote...

"You can choose anything you want; but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, I'll cast you into eternal hellfire and brimstone."  ~god, on the subject of "free will"

 

But almost everyone in the world, for almost all of human history didn't even get a chance to choose.

 

They were damned to hell by god who withheld the choice and chance of eternal life from them.

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

jesus is the option god demands we choose in order to not be thrown into hell.  The point being, we do not actually have free will.  We have the option of choosing what god wants or suffering consequences that far outweigh the choice.  This is not free will; it is emotional blackmail, coercion, and manipulation.  I choose my own integrity over this kind of abuse.

 

I should just like to reiterate that one of the standard Christian tropes (everyone chooses to send themselves to hell by rejecting Jesus) is refuted by scripture.

 

The bible is quite clear that 99.9 % of the world's population never had the chance of hearing the Word before they died.

 

Romans 10 : 17   Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 

 

So god never even offered this hell-bound majority a choice.

 

Even slaves have the ability to choose to disobey their masters, knowing that they will be punished for doing so.

 

But 99.9% of human beings are less than slaves because they will be punished by god without even being offered a choice.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

You and I have been sparring for well nigh a decade, now, @Edgarcito; and, in that time, I've come to realize that you only try punching below the belt whenever a nerve has been thoroughly pinched.  It's fascinating to me that you seem unaware of your reaction; and even less inclined toward curiosity about it.  Why is that, do you reckon?

[duderonomy]

ErmaGerd!!

 

I remember so many years ago explaining that the God of the Bible (capital letters because I respect proper nouns you asshats who don't) not only created evil but that one of his biggest prophets said so.

 

Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

 

 

[Edgarcito]

15 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Was this personal attack the result of you not wanting to face the fact that your god is an abusive tyrant?  Because we both know I never indicated that my personal integrity was any kind of apex; or, for that matter, even a standard by with others should be measured. 

 

Your god is evil, Ed.  Deal with it without taking your anger out on us. 

I don't see it like that, quite the opposite.  Truthfully, I see you as angry for some reason.... maybe that you lost your faith without your permission and now you have set up a false bravado to hide the issue.  Just an observation.

[Edgarcito]

13 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You and I have been sparring for well nigh a decade, now, @Edgarcito; and, in that time, I've come to realize that you only try punching below the belt whenever a nerve has been thoroughly pinched.  It's fascinating to me that you seem unaware of your reaction; and even less inclined toward curiosity about it.  Why is that, do you reckon?

I'm aware of it.... not always.  I expect I understand the reasons as well.  But thanks. 

[Edgarcito]

10 hours ago, duderonomy said:

ErmaGerd!!

 

I remember so many years ago explaining that the God of the Bible (capital letters because I respect proper nouns you asshats who don't) not only created evil but that one of his biggest prophets said so.

 

Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

 

 

Pardon the intrusion sir, carry on....

[TheRedneckProfessor]

17 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

"my own integrity".  What in the wide wide world of sports gives you the impression that your own integrity provides us with the damn apex.  Jesus dude.  You hang out in your world and do that and see how long you last.  I've got years on you and experience, and you will one day come to the conclusion that "your own integrity" is not what you thought it was as a young man.  But keep on, the Bible mentions several times of testing to see if you will choose the correct qualities, which most of the time leaves out "self".  

 

16 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't see it like that, quite the opposite.  Truthfully, I see you as angry for some reason.... maybe that you lost your faith without your permission and now you have set up a false bravado to hide the issue.  Just an observation.

Do you really think I'm the angry one?

[Edgarcito]

12 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

Do you really think I'm the angry one?

Yes, on a level.  You control it decently, but yeah.  Me, oh heck yeah, I'm angry for several reasons.  What's your point.  If you feel the need to tell me, it's a free world.... despite the jackass Joe and his efforts.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

16 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Yes, on a level.  You control it decently, but yeah.  Me, oh heck yeah, I'm angry for several reasons.  What's your point.  If you feel the need to tell me, it's a free world.... despite the jackass Joe and his efforts.

The point being that when it was demonstrated that your god does nothing to prevent the evil in this world, your first response was to attack my character, rather than attempt to face the facts or deal with the plain truth.  Now it has further been demonstrated that your god actually created evil and called it "good."  And here again, your response, rather than face the facts and deal with the truth, is to launch into an angry tirade against my character.  It brings me back to the question if you really understand what you're doing and why you're doing it; or it you just tell yourself you understand because that is what keeps your cognitive dissonance intact. 

 

I've obviously struck a nerve; and you've given a clear (and predictable) response.  There are psychological explanations for this.  Perhaps my own personal integrity will someday fail me as a standard or an apex.  But, for now, if I were to discover a pattern like this in my own behavior, said integrity would leave me no other option but to try to suss it out, understand it, and implement a remedy for it. 

 

I wonder why yours doesn't.  Is there a reason you'd rather attack than face the truth?  Is it the truth about god, or the truth about yourself, that you're so reluctant to face?  Is this intentional inability to live in truth the real reason you're angry; and more angry at yourself than anyone else?  Worthwhile questions, even if you never find an answer to them.

[Edgarcito]

21 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The point being that when it was demonstrated that your god does nothing to prevent the evil in this world, your first response was to attack my character, rather than attempt to face the facts or deal with the plain truth.  Now it has further been demonstrated that your god actually created evil and called it "good."  And here again, your response, rather than face the facts and deal with the truth, is to launch into an angry tirade against my character.  It brings me back to the question if you really understand what you're doing and why you're doing it; or it you just tell yourself you understand because that is what keeps your cognitive dissonance intact. 

 

I've obviously struck a nerve; and you've given a clear (and predictable) response.  There are psychological explanations for this.  Perhaps my own personal integrity will someday fail me as a standard or an apex.  But, for now, if I were to discover a pattern like this in my own behavior, said integrity would leave me no other option but to try to suss it out, understand it, and implement a remedy for it. 

 

I wonder why yours doesn't.  Is there a reason you'd rather attack than face the truth?  Is it the truth about god, or the truth about yourself, that you're so reluctant to face?  Is this intentional inability to live in truth the real reason you're angry; and more angry at yourself than anyone else?  Worthwhile questions, even if you never find an answer to them.

You keep trying to pin my anger on some alleged failure in comprehension and then applying that to some relative standard.  And then to boot, adding authority to your stance.  

 

For example, here you are promoting your ability to control your position in the face of evil, yet evil is a bad thing?  Not to mention the lack of Bible literacy.  Let me share as I have before.  My dear ole father shared this same kind of moronic intellectualism that creates the hostility that I have for those that use the device.  It's a trigger.  I won't deny that, and should work to correct, but I wouldn't be too proud that you think that mechanism is something to behold.