Suffering for the Sins of the World

[TheRedneckProfessor]

15 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

See, you can't keep your god damn plan consistent even with your son.  Teach him YOUR plan because you're so god damn smart.  Real INTEGRITY is picking ONE and then working through the parts you discover because you AREN'T God and understand the answer already.  Don't be so fuckin stupid.

Wouldn't that violate his free will, dumbass? 

 

See, unlike your god, I can give him the freedom to choose his own path without any punishments or repercussions from me.  Only unconditional love that isn't affected by whatever choice he makes.  That's how fatherly love works.

 

But, here again, Redneck Jr's decisions in life have nothing to do with your god being evil.  This is just another dishonest misdirection from you because you know there is no rational or moral defense for your god having the power to prevent evil but refusing to do so.

[Edgarcito]

33 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Wouldn't that violate his free will, dumbass? 

 

See, unlike your god, I can give him the freedom to choose his own path without any punishments or repercussions from me.  Only unconditional love that isn't affected by whatever choice he makes.  That's how fatherly love works.

 

But, here again, Redneck Jr's decisions in life have nothing to do with your god being evil.  This is just another dishonest misdirection from you because you know there is no rational or moral defense for your god having the power to prevent evil but refusing to do so.

Maybe if you draw a diagram it will fucking help.  You're regressing in your logic.  I'll let your brain rest and we will visit another day.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

11 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Maybe if you draw a diagram it will fucking help.  You're regressing in your logic.  I'll let your brain rest and we will visit another day.

Nah.  You're just running away because, once again, I've brought you too close to the truth for your own comfort.

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Nah.  You're just running away because, once again, I've brought you too close to the truth for your own comfort.

No, your "anything you choose goes" theory for your son is incorrect...  You don't even do that in practice.

 

Any time you think I'm deflecting, go look at the Bible.  That's my deflection, yet when I keep citing the story, the plan, you say I'm not considering.  I've considered years with you boneheads to no avail, none, other than we share a little intellect.

 

And you fucking moron, you keep thinking you know what drives me, or what my comfort level is.  You can't predict one step into my future but here you are with your presumptions because you have the answers.  Quoting Bugs Bunny, "what an ultra maroon"....

[TheRedneckProfessor]

43 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

No, your "anything you choose goes" theory for your son is incorrect...  You don't even do that in practice.

 

Any time you think I'm deflecting, go look at the Bible.  That's my deflection, yet when I keep citing the story, the plan, you say I'm not considering.  I've considered years with you boneheads to no avail, none, other than we share a little intellect.

 

And you fucking moron, you keep thinking you know what drives me, or what my comfort level is.  You can't predict one step into my future but here you are with your presumptions because you have the answers.  Quoting Bugs Bunny, "what an ultra maroon"....

Your god is evil, Ed.  Yelling at me ain't going to change that.  If it makes you feel better, you're welcome to keep at it; but it's not going to affect the outcome of this debate.  You're also welcome to continue attempting to deflect, dodge, and misdirect; but the end result will still be the same.  Evil and suffering has been debated by philosophers and theologians for millennia now, people much smarter than us; and, in the final analysis, the facts remain: evil persists, suffering continues, and your god does nothing to prevent it.  This flies in the face of your god being both omnipotent and omnibenevolent.  For you to dismiss a staving child as "just part of god's plan" is both intellectually lazy and completely lacking in empathy, sympathy, or any kind of compassion for those who suffer.  Perhaps you are simply trying to mirror the behavior of your god, who sees the suffering of a child and just shrugs his shoulders.  But dismissing the suffering of the masses is not a defense of your god's behavior; nor is it a defense of your own.  However you try to slice it, there simply is no rational or moral defense for being able to prevent evil and suffering but not being willing to.

[Edgarcito]

51 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Your god is evil, Ed.  Yelling at me ain't going to change that.  If it makes you feel better, you're welcome to keep at it; but it's not going to affect the outcome of this debate.  You're also welcome to continue attempting to deflect, dodge, and misdirect; but the end result will still be the same.  Evil and suffering has been debated by philosophers and theologians for millennia now, people much smarter than us; and, in the final analysis, the facts remain: evil persists, suffering continues, and your god does nothing to prevent it.  This flies in the face of your god being both omnipotent and omnibenevolent.  For you to dismiss a staving child as "just part of god's plan" is both intellectually lazy and completely lacking in empathy, sympathy, or any kind of compassion for those who suffer.  Perhaps you are simply trying to mirror the behavior of your god, who sees the suffering of a child and just shrugs his shoulders.  But dismissing the suffering of the masses is not a defense of your god's behavior; nor is it a defense of your own.  However you try to slice it, there simply is no rational or moral defense for being able to prevent evil and suffering but not being willing to.

Always a pleasure....we will figure it out one of these days.

[walterpthefirst]

Muslims say that Allah created unbelievers to feed the fires of hell.

 

So they have no need to rationalize the evil of their god by invoking some kind of test.

 

In the light of this thread I find that approach refreshing in its honesty.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

25 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Muslims say that Allah created unbelievers to feed the fires of hell.

 

So they have no need to rationalize the evil of their god by invoking some kind of test.

 

In the light of this thread I find that approach refreshing in its honesty.

I suppose Calvinists would agree with them, were they not so consumed by fear of their own potential damnation as one of the un-elect.

[walterpthefirst]

18 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I suppose Calvinists would agree with them, were they not so consumed by fear of their own potential damnation as one of the un-elect.

 

Yes. 

 

The same kind of mental double-shuffle is used by both Muslims and Calvinists so that the evil actions of their respective gods are believed by the faithful to be good.  But what's so refreshing about the Muslim/Calvinist approach is that in both cases the responsibility for the eternal suffering of those in hell is laid squarely at the door of the deity.  Jesus/Allah wills it.  End of.

 

But the standard mind fuck (evil is good) doesn't change.  Because Jesus/Allah is mysterious and shit, who are we to question his motives and actions?  Just fear them and have faith.

 

I like the honesty of this approach.  No transferring the responsibility to us by calling reality some kind of test, which, if we fail, is our fault.  Jesus/Allah ordains who is saved and who isn't.  No free will in the equation and no need for any kind of test.

 

Anyway, why would an all-knowing god need to test anything in his creation?  He knew all of the outcomes beforehand.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Omniscience is another concept that deserves a closer examination, as it reveals yet another layer of god's evil nature.  As you have astutely observed, @walterpthefirst, if god is omniscient, then he would already be aware beforehand the outcome of whatever test/lesson/game he's playing with us.  This renders the test/lesson/game unnecessary; because the outcome has already been determined before it even started.  And if the outcome is somehow different from exactly what god wants it to be, where does that leave god's omnipotence?

 

So, every little boy who starved to death as part of god's "lesson", died for absolutely no reason.  Every 10-year-old girl who has ever been raped as "part of god's plan", suffered that brutality for absolutely no reason.  Because god had already known and determined the outcome of the lesson. 

 

Moreover, if god is omniscient, this means he has full and intimate awareness of every act of evil that has ever been committed or will ever be committed, because he has already determined the outcome.  The little boy dies of starvation because god wants him to.  The little girl gets raped because god planned for her to.  There is no plausible deniability with omniscience, only culpability.

 

Now, an apologist as quick-witted as Ed would point out that the lesson/test/game is for our benefit.  It's so that humanity can learn something, or overcome something, or some other mysterious shit.  But, wouldn't an omnipotent god have been able to create a situation in which we could overcome without children having to starve to death in the streets?  Wouldn't an omniscient god have been able to impart whatever knowledge he wanted us to have without first raping a little girl to get our attention?

 

However you look at it, god is evil and there is simply no moral or rational defense of his actions (or lack thereof).

[◊ Weezer ◊]

With the name calling argument that went on above, again, decency was slaughtered by ego.  I do not believe tirades like that are in the best interest of this website.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

21 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

See, unlike your god, I can give him the freedom to choose his own path without any punishments or repercussions from me.  Only unconditional love that isn't affected by whatever choice he makes.  That's how fatherly love works.

 

 

Excelent point!  And one of the points that originally got me to questioning the concept of the Christian God.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

I do not believe tirades like that are in the best interest of this website.

I disagree.  I found it incredibly cathartic.  I suppose a "better man" would walk away from a attack like that, rather than defend himself.  But, if aggression is never countered with equal measure, then it will continue, and spread, unchecked.  I don't think unmitigated aggression is in the best interest of anyone, let alone the members of our community. 

 

I do, as always, both value and appreciate your more pacifist approach, as it offers much needed balance to the often fiery debates that take place here.  But this was not a situation in which the passive approach would have been appropriate. 

[walterpthefirst]

16 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

Now, an apologist as quick-witted as Ed would point out that the lesson/test/game is for our benefit.  It's so that humanity can learn something, or overcome something, or some other mysterious shit.  But, wouldn't an omnipotent god have been able to create a situation in which we could overcome without children having to starve to death in the streets?  Wouldn't an omniscient god have been able to impart whatever knowledge he wanted us to have without first raping a little girl to get our attention?

 

 

If Ed really does think that the test is for our benefit, then how does he square that with what scripture says?

 

In Acts 17, before Paul spoke to the Areopagus in Athens he noticed an altar inscribed TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.  He went on to say that the people of Athens were ignorant of the god (Jesus) that he was about to proclaim to them.  So, scripture confirms that before anyone has the Word preached to them, they are ignorant of Jesus and have no knowledge of him.  Therefore, the entire world has been ignorant of Jesus until Christian missionaries brought the Word to them.  This means that 99% of the world's population would have been ignorant and unaware that god was testing them for most of human history.  

 

I find this indescribably cruel.  Billions of people lived and died in ignorance of god, with no hope of ever hearing the Word that could save them from everlasting hellfire.  The bible is adamant that there is nothing they could have learned or overcome that would have changed this forgone result.  

 

For them there never was any kind of test in the way that Edgarcito describes it.  God foreknew and pre-decided the outcome of the 'test' making it no kind of test at all.  Nothing was tested or was testable for these people.

 

And instead of being moved to pity for these lost souls or even expressing the smallest atom of empathy for their eternal suffering Edgaricto complains that I'm bitchin' about them.

 

Perhaps such a callous and cold-hearted god deserves an equally callous and cold-hearted follower?

[freshstart]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As a casual observer of this conversation I would just like to point out what I’m seeing:

On 9/7/2022 at 10:54 AM, Edgarcito said:  For example, here you are promoting your ability to control your position in the face of evil, yet evil is a bad thing? 

I think herein lies the problem.  It appears Ed questions whether "evil is a bad thing."  That is the mental gymnastics that a Christian has to do because, as RNP has so eloquently pointed out, God created evil.  And if Christians are going to worship and trust a God that created evil, well then there has to be a reason that evil is good.  What a mind-fuck that is.

On 9/7/2022 at 3:32 PM, Edgarcito said:  Instead, you just seem adamant and fixed that placing evil there in the first place was/is not worth any of your consideration or respect because you are permanently sure in your authority. 

No, Ed.  RNP seems permanently sure that evil is a bad thing.  That does not make him authoritative.  It makes him compassionate.  What you are really trying to say here, is that we should all open our minds to the probability that there is a good reason for an omniscient, omnipotent god to allow unspeakable horrors to happen.  And because RNP has the audacity to say hell no, I will never ever believe that that there is one good reason why it would EVER be a good thing to flood the world and kill every man, woman, child and unborn baby or a good thing to allow thousands of children into human trafficking or a good thing to allow the holocaust or fill-in-the blank with any other atrocity you can think of, you get hung up that he calls himself an “authority.” 

 

 

 

Here Ed accuses  RNP of an authoritative stance:

On 9/7/2022 at 10:54 AM, Edgarcito said:  You keep trying to pin my anger on some alleged failure in comprehension and then applying that to some relative standard.  And then to boot, adding authority to your stance. 

Note that the “relative standard” here is that evil = not good. 

But then Ed takes an authoritative stance himself – without any explanation as to why he should be a trusted authority on anything:

On 9/6/2022 at 3:29 PM, Edgarcito said: I've got years on you and experience, and you will one day come to the conclusion that "your own integrity" is not what you thought it was as a young man.

And then of course, when he cannot seem to think of an appropriate rebuttal, the personal attacks and insults start - and if I'm not mistaken, its always Ed that hurls first:

On 8/22/2022 at 2:39 PM, Edgarcito said:  LOL, I imagine you spending enough time with a dick in your hand to know...

On 9/9/2022 at 10:31 AM, Edgarcito said:  See, you can't keep your god damn plan consistent even with your son.  Teach him YOUR plan because you're so god damn smart.  Real INTEGRITY is picking ONE and then working through the parts you discover because you AREN'T God and understand the answer already.  Don't be so fuckin stupid.

23 hours ago, Edgarcito said:  Maybe if you draw a diagram it will fucking help.  You're regressing in your logic.  I'll let your brain rest and we will visit another day.

 

 

 I'm sorry, Ed but if you are seriously trying to twist things in order to argue that evil things happen for a good reason, and if you're going to get upset that people would dare to take a stand against the notion that evil could ever be good, and if you're going to worship an invisible being, then why not worship Satan - who would certainly agree with you?   Its a rhetorical question, so there is no need to answer. I just can't respect anything you have to say. 

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

Freshstart: And because RNP has the audacity to say hell no, I will never ever believe that that there is one good reason why it would EVER be a good thing to flood the world and kill every man, woman, child and unborn baby or a good thing to allow thousands of children into human trafficking or a good thing to allow the holocaust or fill-in-the blank with any other atrocity you can think of, you get hung up that he calls himself an “authority.” 

 

..

 

Child sex trafficking is THE indefensible argument against the existence of God. A loving God anyway. 

 

Why would anyone try to defend their invisible (and probably non-existent) friend's lack of motivation to stop child sex trafficking immediately? 

[Edgarcito]

7 hours ago, freshstart said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As a casual observer of this conversation I would just like to point out what I’m seeing:

 

On 9/7/2022 at 10:54 AM, Edgarcito said:  For example, here you are promoting your ability to control your position in the face of evil, yet evil is a bad thing? 

 

I think herein lies the problem.  It appears Ed questions whether "evil is a bad thing."  That is the mental gymnastics that a Christian has to do because, as RNP has so eloquently pointed out, God created evil.  And if Christians are going to worship and trust a God that created evil, well then there has to be a reason that evil is good.  What a mind-fuck that is.

 

On 9/7/2022 at 3:32 PM, Edgarcito said:  Instead, you just seem adamant and fixed that placing evil there in the first place was/is not worth any of your consideration or respect because you are permanently sure in your authority. 

 

No, Ed.  RNP seems permanently sure that evil is a bad thing.  That does not make him authoritative.  It makes him compassionate.  What you are really trying to say here, is that we should all open our minds to the probability that there is a good reason for an omniscient, omnipotent god to allow unspeakable horrors to happen.  And because RNP has the audacity to say hell no, I will never ever believe that that there is one good reason why it would EVER be a good thing to flood the world and kill every man, woman, child and unborn baby or a good thing to allow thousands of children into human trafficking or a good thing to allow the holocaust or fill-in-the blank with any other atrocity you can think of, you get hung up that he calls himself an “authority.” 

 

 

 

 

 

Here Ed accuses  RNP of an authoritative stance:

 

On 9/7/2022 at 10:54 AM, Edgarcito said:  You keep trying to pin my anger on some alleged failure in comprehension and then applying that to some relative standard.  And then to boot, adding authority to your stance. 

 

Note that the “relative standard” here is that evil = not good. 

 

 

 

But then Ed takes an authoritative stance himself – without any explanation as to why he should be a trusted authority on anything:

 

On 9/6/2022 at 3:29 PM, Edgarcito said: I've got years on you and experience, and you will one day come to the conclusion that "your own integrity" is not what you thought it was as a young man.

 

And then of course, when he cannot seem to think of an appropriate rebuttal, the personal attacks and insults start - and if I'm not mistaken, its always Ed that hurls first:

 

On 8/22/2022 at 2:39 PM, Edgarcito said:  LOL, I imagine you spending enough time with a dick in your hand to know...

 

On 9/9/2022 at 10:31 AM, Edgarcito said:  See, you can't keep your god damn plan consistent even with your son.  Teach him YOUR plan because you're so god damn smart.  Real INTEGRITY is picking ONE and then working through the parts you discover because you AREN'T God and understand the answer already.  Don't be so fuckin stupid.

 

23 hours ago, Edgarcito said:  Maybe if you draw a diagram it will fucking help.  You're regressing in your logic.  I'll let your brain rest and we will visit another day.

 

 

 

 

 I'm sorry, Ed but if you are seriously trying to twist things in order to argue that evil things happen for a good reason, and if you're going to get upset that people would dare to take a stand against the notion that evil could ever be good, and if you're going to worship an invisible being, then why not worship Satan - who would certainly agree with you?   Its a rhetorical question, so there is no need to answer. I just can't respect anything you have to say. 

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let me give another example so that you might understand how "evil could be a good thing" via free will.....which is ultimately my stance....and the reason I put a question mark behind the first comment.  "Could evil be a good thing?"

 

Suppose you had an addiction that essentially was figurative, if not literal, death.  When you use free will and one time, beat the addiction, and then twice, and then a third time, you didn't succumb to the temptation, the feeling you get, the happiness of wow, I did that, I'm free of that.  It's in this use of evil that I was posing the question. 

 

It didn't matter to John and still doesn't that perhaps God was using free will in conjunction with evil to manifest overcomers.  The point to John and seemingly most of you is God is less than for allowing evil in the scenario regardless.  Within the context of the story, I believe what I have just written.  John is speaking outside the context of the story and then kept accusing me of deflection.  No, this is what I meant, WITHIN the story. 

 

Thanks, and I'm not worried about your respect.  It's within these conversations, heated or no, that we then know each other, especially what Christ calls for.  I don't dislike John.  I don't believe he dislikes me, rather a little yelling likely helps.  I damn sure would be more likely to defend/speak for John and his family than Whezzy and mindless drivel.

 

And if you will please not hang up the phone, we would like you to take the time to answer a few survey questions.  Is there anything else we might help you with today?  No?  Thanks again for your participation.... 

[midniterider]

 Ed: The point to John and seemingly most of you is God is less than for allowing evil in the scenario regardless.

 

I wonder what great thing God is allowing the evil of child sex slavery for? Something real good , I bet! 

[Edgarcito]

8 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

If Ed really does think that the test is for our benefit, then how does he square that with what scripture says?

 

In Acts 17, before Paul spoke to the Areopagus in Athens he noticed an altar inscribed TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.  He went on to say that the people of Athens were ignorant of the god (Jesus) that he was about to proclaim to them.  So, scripture confirms that before anyone has the Word preached to them, they are ignorant of Jesus and have no knowledge of him.  Therefore, the entire world has been ignorant of Jesus until Christian missionaries brought the Word to them.  This means that 99% of the world's population would have been ignorant and unaware that god was testing them for most of human history.  

 

I find this indescribably cruel.  Billions of people lived and died in ignorance of god, with no hope of ever hearing the Word that could save them from everlasting hellfire.  The bible is adamant that there is nothing they could have learned or overcome that would have changed this forgone result.  

 

For them there never was any kind of test in the way that Edgarcito describes it.  God foreknew and pre-decided the outcome of the 'test' making it no kind of test at all.  Nothing was tested or was testable for these people.

 

And instead of being moved to pity for these lost souls or even expressing the smallest atom of empathy for their eternal suffering Edgaricto complains that I'm bitchin' about them.

 

Perhaps such a callous and cold-hearted god deserves an equally callous and cold-hearted follower?

Speculation on your part Whezzy.  You don't what's going on beyond our perception and speculate according to the conclusion your mind has drawn....  You will be in this non-believer mindset until you one day are not.  Or you might remain there forever..

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 Ed: The point to John and seemingly most of you is God is less than for allowing evil in the scenario regardless.

 

I wonder what great thing God is allowing the evil of child sex slavery for? Something real good , I bet! 

Remembering that one transgression is no different than another.  Next.

[midniterider]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Remembering that one transgression is no different than another.  Next.

 

Steal a candy bar or murder someone...it's all the same , eh? 

[Edgarcito]

5 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Steal a candy bar or murder someone...it's all the same , eh? 

See, this is the shit that pisses me off.  You have been here how many years?  Even in the OT, how many were counted as righteous?  It does seem as though it ultimately is and will be an absolute situation with God.

 

Yet here you are playing games with the misunderstanding and lack of cognitive ability.  

 

Just say no to commenting if you can't pick up your game.  Thanks in advance from ALL of us.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I think anyone who would conflate free will with addiction/recovery has never experienced addiction in the full manifestation of its horror.  But that is for a different thread.  For this thread, it is enough to point out that this is a completely false/erroneous analogy and is only potentially connected to a starving child or a rape victim by a series of remote possibilities.

[midniterider]

4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

See, this is the shit that pisses me off.  You have been here how many years?  Even in the OT, how many were counted as righteous?  It does seem as though it ultimately is and will be an absolute situation with God.

 

Yet here you are playing games with the misunderstanding and lack of cognitive ability.  

 

Just say no to commenting if you can't pick up your game.  Thanks in advance from ALL of us.

 

Your comment has been rejected.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Even in the OT, how many were counted as righteous? 

We don't need the Old Testament to see the error in this kind of system (designed by a "just" god).  We need look no further than Hitler's alignment with the christian religion, or Jeffrey Dahmer's prison repentance; and compare those results to how many children ended up in hell because god allowed them to starve to death in order to test Ed's faith.

 

There is simply no defense, here, Ed.  Sorry.  I don't dislike you either; but your theology is as repulsive as your god is evil.