Did Jesus think he was god?

[Wertbag]

In the bible Jesus never says straight out "I am god", most Christians will point to a story where Jesus says "I am" and take that to mean god, but its at best vague inference rather than directly stated.  Yet in the OT, god never was shy about telling people who He is.  " I am God, and there is none else",  "I am the LORD your God" and "I am the LORD, the God of all mankind".  He was direct and open about who He was and demanded worship, yet Jesus never speaks in this manner, constantly referring to "the father" rather than to himself.

 

You have passages like John 14:28 "...I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." which seems to point to Jesus saying god is greater than him, which makes little sense if they are one and the same.  There's also the famous line on the cross "Lord, why have you forsaken me?", which if he genuinely believed he was god, then this cry was to himself?

 

John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." - Again saying he was sent, not that he is god.

 

Mark 10:18 "“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone." - Pretty much directly says he is not god.

 

There are also many verses which talk about Jesus praying.  Who would he pray to if he was god?

 

It feels like Jesus's divinity is just taken as part of the course, but I can't see why it's believed?  Someone mentioned it was a Catholic invention, that the idea of the trinity didn't exist for many centuries and there is a good chance that this label was given to Jesus much later.  If so then Jesus would likely be horrified by the modern church, because they worship him and not god.  The prophet has become the idol to be worshipped.

 

Does anyone know the history of Jesus's divinity?  Is it likely that no one that knew him actually thought he was god? 

 

[TABA]

The best response I can give to this is to promote the shit out of Bart Ehrman’s book “How Jesus Became God”.  Of the many books he’s written, this may be the best. Ehrman shows how the tale grew in the telling, how Jesus went from being a (failed) apocalyptic prophet to being one with god himself, from earlier scriptures to later ones.  He also give important background from Greek and Roman history about how humans sometimes “became divine” in various ways.

 

I was already a heathen when I read this book, but to call it Eye Opening is an understatement.  It’s, well, a revelation.

 

 

[pantheory]

On 9/1/2022 at 3:32 AM, Wertbag said:

In the bible Jesus never says straight out "I am god", most Christians will point to a story where Jesus says "I am" and take that to mean god, but its at best vague inference rather than directly stated.  Yet in the OT, god never was shy about telling people who He is.  " I am God, and there is none else",  "I am the LORD your God" and "I am the LORD, the God of all mankind".  He was direct and open about who He was and demanded worship, yet Jesus never speaks in this manner, constantly referring to "the father" rather than to himself.

 

You have passages like John 14:28 "...I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." which seems to point to Jesus saying god is greater than him, which makes little sense if they are one and the same.  There's also the famous line on the cross "Lord, why have you forsaken me?", which if he genuinely believed he was god, then this cry was to himself?

 

John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." - Again saying he was sent, not that he is god.

 

Mark 10:18 "“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone." - Pretty much directly says he is not god.

 

There are also many verses which talk about Jesus praying.  Who would he pray to if he was god?

 

It feels like Jesus's divinity is just taken as part of the course, but I can't see why it's believed?  Someone mentioned it was a Catholic invention, that the idea of the trinity didn't exist for many centuries and there is a good chance that this label was given to Jesus much later.  If so then Jesus would likely be horrified by the modern church, because they worship him and not god.  The prophet has become the idol to be worshipped.

 

Does anyone know the history of Jesus's divinity?  Is it likely that no one that knew him actually thought he was god? 

 

 

Yeah, if Jesus proclaimed himself as God almighty the claim of blasphemy would have been certain much sooner and therefore he could have been executed in his 20's instead of in his 30's. Did Jesus think he was God according to the bible? I don't think so according to the many supposed Jesus quotes in the bible to the contrary. The Jesus as God proclamation came later as the idea of the trinity via the first churches of Constantine, the Catholic church.

 

But since biblical Jesus was just a fantasy it really doesn't matter, right?

[midniterider]

John 14:11: Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

 

I remember someone somewhere thinking that Jesus' followers were not the brightest bunch so instead of just putting forward a non-dual explanation of himself, and them, and everything as one, he dumbed it down a little by saying stuff like John 14:11. His followers never understood that God and Jesus and them and every damn thing in the universe were all the same substance, but instead opted for hero worship. 

 

But if one treats the bible as myth I guess it doesnt matter.

[Joshpantera]

10 hours ago, Wertbag said:

John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." - Again saying he was sent, not that he is god.

 

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one!" 

 

 

³⁴ Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’^[d]? ³⁵ If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— ³⁶ what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? ³⁷ Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. ³⁸ But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” ³⁹ Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

 

5 hours ago, midniterider said:

John 14:11: Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

 

10 hours ago, Wertbag said:

You have passages like John 14:28 "...I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

 

14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God^[a]; believe also in me. ² My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? ³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. ⁴ You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jesus the Way to the Father

⁵ Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

⁶ Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ⁷ If you really know me, you will know^[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

⁸ Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

⁹ Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been

 

7 hours ago, midniterider said:

I remember someone somewhere thinking that Jesus' followers were not the brightest bunch so instead of just putting forward a non-dual explanation of himself, and them, and everything as one, he dumbed it down a little by saying stuff like John 14:11. His followers never understood that God and Jesus and them and every damn thing in the universe were all the same substance, but instead opted for hero worship. 

 

But if one treats the bible as myth I guess it doesnt matter.

 

In the end it really doesn't matter. There's no one single jesus to point to. It's just a story grafting together lots of different and conflicting biographies rolled into one. As if it were the life story of one person. When closer investigation tends show that it isn't. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Years ago when studying this, I got the idea that the later church made him into "god" with the idea of the trinity.  

 

People seem to like to create gods and mediators/saviors like Jesus.  He never meant to be a god, but I heard recently that later on some followers of Buddha started sending their prayers through him to the gods they believed in, and over time he became a god figure.  Some people seem to have a need for having a savior, or an ideal, or idol, they can live vicariously through.  If there is no god, they will create one.  Perhaps that's why christians ar called "sheep".  They need a shepard to watch over them and keep them safe.  HA!  I guess we would all be considerd goats.  But heck, goats are pretty dang good at taking care of themselves!  And good at inventing gods to scare the Hell out of the sheep! 

[Moonobserver]

I've wondered about the accounts of Satan's temptations of Jesus in the wilderness:

 

"If you are the Son of God....."

 

That sounds to me like it might be the thinking of someone wanting to believe that he was the Son of God, but knowing in the back of his mind that he wasn't, using scripture to give himself a rationale for not trying to perform miracles which he subconsciously knew he couldn't perform.

[Henndigo]

I don’t think Jesus thought he was God either.  It would have been a far bigger controversy with the Jews they were trying to convert than the circumcision issue.  Jews were and still are fiercely monotheistic.  The trinity looks like it took shape later than the first century.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

4 hours ago, Henndigo said:

 

  The trinity looks like it took shape later than the first century.

 

I forgot when that happened, but yes, it was later than that.