Jump to content

Hard core bible debate silliness


midniterider
 Share

Recommended Posts

We were all Christians once and while we said the bible was our holy book, it's often seen that atheists and other ex-believers know the bible better than the average Christian. And we ex-Christians pull out verses that intend to destroy the apologist ... then the apologist just says, "Yeah , whatever ... I don't find that passage particularly compelling." 

 

It's like the ex-believer goes full-blown literalist with every single word of the bible commanding fire-breathing compliance. The average Christian may be a lot less anal about the bible and possibly think we're a bit nutso. 

 

And so there is a disconnect between ex-C and Christian. A Christian may only believe or hold dear , a subset of the bible. Or may not believe in the bible much at all. They may just believe in Jesus and call that good. 

 

We would like to insist that in order to call their self a Christian they must be a fire-breathing literalist, emphasizing every jot and tittle of the word...but they aren't. And they don't have to be. 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, midniterider said:

We were all Christians once and while we said the bible was our holy book, it's often seen that atheists and other ex-believers know the bible better than the average Christian. And we ex-Christians pull out verses that intend to destroy the apologist ... then the apologist just says, "Yeah , whatever ... I don't find that passage particularly compelling." 

 

It's like the ex-believer goes full-blown literalist with every single word of the bible commanding fire-breathing compliance. The average Christian may be a lot less anal about the bible and possibly think we're a bit nutso. 

 

And so there is a disconnect between ex-C and Christian. A Christian may only believe or hold dear , a subset of the bible. Or may not believe in the bible much at all. They may just believe in Jesus and call that good. 

 

We would like to insist that in order to call their self a Christian they must be a fire-breathing literalist, emphasizing every jot and tittle of the word...but they aren't. And they don't have to be. 

 

 

I've personally never experienced that here M.  lol.  But yes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

It's like the ex-believer goes full-blown literalist with every single word of the bible commanding fire-breathing compliance. The average Christian may be a lot less anal about the bible and possibly think we're a bit nutso. 

I think that many of us ExC were probably stronger and more faithful believers during our time in the faith, than most Christians. I began to question because of what I was finding in the bible that no one could really answer. Men that I would go to, that had been in the faith their whole lives. Ministers who had been preaching far longer than I  just didn't have answers. Why? 

 

I guess only God knows. LoL

 

I feel like I studied myself out of the faith. I converted to a cult. Filled with apologetics because of a multitude of doctrinal issues i saw in the Baptist church. As opposed to what the Bible said. And eventually I still found things that even they couldn't explain with their apologetics. Also issues that their apologetics caused. 

 

DB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator
2 hours ago, midniterider said:

And we ex-Christians pull out verses that intend to destroy the apologist

I'm not sure destroying the apologist is the goal.  If it is, it is certainly not a very noble goal.  Just as in any other debate, the goal should not be to defeat the opposition; but, rather, to present your own case with sufficient credence to persuade onlookers, passers-by, and other uninvolved third-parties.  Debating apologists is no different.  Sure, it gets personal sometimes; and there's a fair amount of brinkmanship involved.  But, generally speaking, the apologist always walks away still convinced of the truth of christianity, and the ex-christian remains equally convinced of its falsehood.  Few, truth be told, enter into debate intent of convincing the other side.  The goal is not to "win".  The goal is to show the flaws, inconsistencies, contradictions, and plain-old falsehoods of the christian religion.  Using the entire bible, including the most obscure and absurd verses, is one of the most powerful tools we have in the arena of debate against the christian religion.  Even if the apologist in front of us at the moment cherry-picks around those verses.  The fact that those verses are in a supposedly infallible and inerrant book suggests the book is something other than what it is believed to be.  And the fact that our hypothetical apologist cherry-picks around it is a serious blow to the character and integrity of the apologist.  We use the tools we are given; we each play our role.  We build on our strengths and shore up our weaknesses.  And whatever resources we find at our disposal, those are the ones we have to use.  In light of this, if I ever offer you any chicken salad, it's best you don't ask what it's made of.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RNP: And the fact that our hypothetical apologist cherry-picks around it is a serious blow to the character and integrity of the apologist. 

 

I wonder how many lurkers are Christians and silently cheer Ed on in their minds. Ed, how do you feel about your integrity as you defend Christianity? I imagine there are varying degrees of confidence in Ed's integrity by various lurkers of all stripes. 

 

DB: I think that many of us ExC were probably stronger and more faithful believers during our time in the faith, than most Christians.

 

I think that too. It's probably a character trait that translated into hard-nosed non-theism upon deconstruction. 

 

I was a lukewarm Christian and so now am a lukewarm agnostic. :P 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was something that really surprised me early on. I was always taught there was one Christianity, and we were all in the one religion. Denominations were just different organisations teaching the same thing. Actually learning that there was no unity in almost any subject  came as quite a shock.

The reformation, the schism, the protestant verse Catholic wars, the hundreds of bibles, and every denomination claiming they had the truth while the others were obviously wrong...

I've now spoken to Christians who are young earth bible literalists and the opposite, science loving Bible denying Christians. 

Even the core doctrines of salvation (faith only, faith plus works, universal or some combination), hell (torture, annihilation or separation) and what is required to be a real Christian (baptism, talking in tongues, being born again, prayer etc) are all debated and subjective. 

The term Christian is so hard to pin to any set of beliefs that you really have to start any conversation with "so what do you actually believe?" and any claim you make has to have qualifiers like "most Christians say..." or "If you believe X, then it follows that...". 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator
On 9/22/2022 at 3:24 PM, midniterider said:

I wonder how many lurkers are Christians and silently cheer Ed on in their minds. Ed, how do you feel about your integrity as you defend Christianity? I imagine there are varying degrees of confidence in Ed's integrity by various lurkers of all stripes. 

One thing that never seems to amaze me about this website is how often the ex-christians here display more "christ-like" behavior than the christians and apologists.  I'm obviously not referring to myself, here; but many of our members really impress me with how much more they exhibit all of the good characteristics that a christian should have: compassion, honesty, patience, wisdom...

 

Behavior generally stands out to me; because I was raised in an environment in which behavior was constantly under scrutiny.  It fascinates me to study about the Cultural Revolution in China, or the Cult of Conformity in North Korea--both environments in which people were expected to actively scrutinize, and report, the behavior of their peers, family and friends, even random strangers in the street.  I was raised in much the same kind of situation.  "Un-christ-like" behavior was punished, often physically; and certainly there was social stigma attached to a person who engaged in it.

 

During my sojourn in christendom, I could have never dreamed of coming onto a website like this and being a blatant liar, or getting pissed off, cussing people out, and pitching a conniption.  Twisting the truth or attacking people's character were not effective tools in witnessing or ministry, so I was taught; and they still aren't.  Yet, christians come in here all the time and engage in those exact behaviors.

 

For me, the very first thought I would have had, had I come here as a christian, would have been that my actions needed to reflect christ as much as my words did; because, even if my words were not effective, my actions would speak for themselves.  Behavior is a dead giveaway to what a person really has inside of them.  christians purport to have the holy spirit inside.  As such, it should be expected that they will exhibit the fruits of the spirit: loving-kindness, patience, peace, long-suffering.  When they display the complete opposite (as many do) that's a sure sign that either they don't have the holy spirit, or that the holy spirit just isn't real.

 

I wonder, too, how many of our lurkers have come here desperately trying to hang on to a faith that is tattered to shreds and hanging by a thread; and it's been the behavior of the christians, their very own brothers and sisters in christ,  that has pushed them on over the edge into deconversion and apostasy.  It's true that actions speak louder than words.  But they also speak truer.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Wertbag said:

It was something that really surprised me early on. I was always taught there was one Christianity, and we were all in the one religion. Denominations were just different organisations teaching the same thing. Actually learning that there was no unity in almost any subject  came as quite a shock.

The reformation, the schism, the protestant verse Catholic wars, the hundreds of bibles, and every denomination claiming they had the truth while the others were obviously wrong...

I've now spoken to Christians who are young earth bible literalists and the opposite, science loving Bible denying Christians. 

Even the core doctrines of salvation (faith only, faith plus works, universal or some combination), hell (torture, annihilation or separation) and what is required to be a real Christian (baptism, talking in tongues, being born again, prayer etc) are all debated and subjective. 

The term Christian is so hard to pin to any set of beliefs that you really have to start any conversation with "so what do you actually believe?" and any claim you make has to have qualifiers like "most Christians say..." or "If you believe X, then it follows that...". 

 

I was surprised to find all this out as well. But I began figuring it out soon after my salvation experience. I was exposed to several different beliefs early on. One of my uncles by marriage was instrumental in my conversion to Christianity.  He sang in a gospel group. He and some other gospel singers from another group ran a local AM southern gospel radio station. Eventually I DJ'd there on the weekends for awhile. In return I had a 30 minute spot on Sundays to preach. Saturdays and Sundays were slotted for various local preachers to come in, pay for a 30-60 minute time slot. The hour long ones would usually do almost a full church service. They would sing or have us play songs for about 15 mins. And then they would preach. So I was introduced to church of God. Several different types of baptists, some independents. Even had a guy come in for awhile that believed in prophesying and healing. I actually went with him to a couple fundraiser events. His beliefs were definitely different. 

 

So when pastors and preachers would teach something I wasn't familiar with. I would write verses down to look it up myself later. 

 

Christianity is a clusterfuck of beliefs. The only thing they seem to agree on, is that Jesus lived a sinless life and died for our sins. Thats about it. They all had different beliefs on everything else. I'm sure all of this played into my deconversion much later on. 

 

I like that RNP mention the house built on sand earlier. That is what Christianity is built on. Shifting sand. Its amazing that one of Jesus parables that was meant to promote his church actually condemns his church now. Christianity has no firm foundation now. Its broken into roughly 45,000 pieces. 

 

Paul would be ashamed of the church of today. He even told them in 1 Cor. 1:10

 

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

It was weird for me when one of my cousins and her family we,t full-on pentecostal holiness and could no longer associate with us because we were not "holy" enough, even though we were also pentecostal and believed in all the weird pentecostal stuff like being slain in the spirit, and dancing in the spirit, and doing warfare in the spirit.  

 

They had all these really strict rules and dress codes they had to follow; and anyone who did not follow them wasn't a True Scotsman. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

During my sojourn in christendom, I could have never dreamed of coming onto a website like this and being a blatant liar, or getting pissed off, cussing people out, and pitching a conniption.  Twisting the truth or attacking people's character were not effective tools in witnessing or ministry, so I was taught; and they still aren't.  Yet, christians come in here all the time and engage in those exact behaviors.

 

 

Well, the South could be different in behaving like Christ but out west I worked with a couple Good Catholics for a couple decades. And apparently Good Catholic means saying, "fuck me!" a lot and really just being like everyone else. A third Catholic friend on Facebook likes to say FJB (as in fuck Joe Biden). Then later on post some churchy meme, verse, or photos inside the church service. Another former workmate and fundy Christian eventually defriended me after she figured out I wasn't jumping on the Qanon or MAGA train. The last general public post I read from her was that someone must be insane if they don't vote for Trump. Insane! lol.  The Reddit ex-c forum has facebook and other social media screenshots of Christian posts as well as stories of fundy parents and relatives definitely showing non-Christlike behavior. Another Christian I worked with for a long time was posting anti-gay shit on Facebook so I posted some debate points and pro-kindness to all bible verses and eventually discovered we werent friends anymore. :) I have at least 5 gay relatives and had had enough of this Christian's preachy crap. 

 

This isn't a political post. Vote for whoever you like. edit: I don't think people are insane if they don't vote for my favored candidate. I can see good points about the opposing candidate as well as bad points about my favored one. 

 

There isn't much Christlike behavior anymore from Christians. Thankfully, this ain't the bible belt. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Wertbag said:

It was something that really surprised me early on. I was always taught there was one Christianity, and we were all in the one religion. Denominations were just different organisations teaching the same thing. Actually learning that there was no unity in almost any subject  came as quite a shock.

The reformation, the schism, the protestant verse Catholic wars, the hundreds of bibles, and every denomination claiming they had the truth while the others were obviously wrong...

I've now spoken to Christians who are young earth bible literalists and the opposite, science loving Bible denying Christians. 

Even the core doctrines of salvation (faith only, faith plus works, universal or some combination), hell (torture, annihilation or separation) and what is required to be a real Christian (baptism, talking in tongues, being born again, prayer etc) are all debated and subjective. 

The term Christian is so hard to pin to any set of beliefs that you really have to start any conversation with "so what do you actually believe?" and any claim you make has to have qualifiers like "most Christians say..." or "If you believe X, then it follows that...". 

 

I agree with your assessment but don't hear much from others concerning religion, even though I have random conversations with strangers fairly often. I never ask anyone concerning their religion because I'm not really interested, and therefore they never tell me. The only place I ever discuss religion with anyone is here :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

It was weird for me when one of my cousins and her family we,t full-on pentecostal holiness and could no longer associate with us because we were not "holy" enough, even though we were also pentecostal and believed in all the weird pentecostal stuff like being slain in the spirit, and dancing in the spirit, and doing warfare in the spirit.  

 I've heard speaking in tongues a few times.  But I've only been in a church once where someone supposedly interpreted what was said. 

 

This was when I was in the gospel assembly. And honestly I gave that one an eye roll. Even though the one interpreting what the woman said was one of the 12 council members. It just didn't feel like an act of God. I'm sure most of you know how it felt when you thought you were feeling God's spirit moving in the service. I know now that's all a mental/emotional effect of belief. But whenever I heard tongues or saw people being slain in the spirit. It just felt fake to me. But honestly, I'm sure that for those that were accustomed to that type of worship, they were genuinely feeling something. 

 

Maybe it was because in the Baptist church they dont really promote any of the gifts. And I was raised Baptist. Someone told me one time that the gift of prophecy and tongues was only for the time of the apostles. I don't how they justified that. I don't remember any scriptures that indicated the gifts of the spirit were a temporary thing. 

 

Also one person told me. And this kind of made sense. That the gift of tongues was gods language and everyone would be able to understand it no matter what native language they spoke. And you only needed an interpretation if you weren't saved. 

 

All of it just more private interpretations. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator
56 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

But I've only been in a church once where someone supposedly interpreted what was said. 

I went on a missions trip with the youth group in the early 90s to Venezuela.  Somebody in the church there "gave a word" in tongues, which was then interpreted by someone else, into Spanish, because Venezuela.  A third person then reinterpreted the "word" into English for all of us American teenagers.  At the time I thought I was a powerful display of god's awesomeness.  Later on I realized that is just kind of how languages work: one person knows what the other person said and can translate it for somebody else.

 

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

Also one person told me. And this kind of made sense. That the gift of tongues was gods language and everyone would be able to understand it no matter what native language they spoke.

One of the hypotheses I came up with as a christian was that "tongues" was the common language that everyone spoke before the Tower of Babel.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

One of the hypotheses I came up with as a christian was that "tongues" was the common language that everyone spoke before the Tower of Babel.

As a Christian I would have definitely been able to entertain that thought. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@TheRedneckProfessor

 

You mentioned in another thread about your dad having a hang up over not being able to speak in tongues. But the scripture says all the gifts are just as important as the next. And they all work as one. 

 

It sounds like your dad has the gift of faith. Maybe he has the gift of the word of wisdom. A good bit of sage advice is worth more than jibberish I would think. 

 

1 Cor 12

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 

 

I'm curious if you ever saw anyone prophesy, work miracles, or heal someone? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, DarkBishop said:

I'm curious if you ever saw anyone prophesy, work miracles, or heal someone? 

Or atleast attempt to do these things lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator
6 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

@TheRedneckProfessor

 

I'm curious if you ever saw anyone prophesy, work miracles, or heal someone? 

 

5 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Or atleast attempt to do these things lol.

Haha.  Yeah, an effort was made...

 

We had prophecies all of the time.  I was even prophesied about on several occasions.  A lot of that trick is the same kind of "reading people" that mystics and mediums do.  I can do it, or used to could, at least... haven't tried in 20 years or more, now.

 

There were "healings" sometimes, too.  Usually small things like headaches and sinus infections that probably just ran their course in coincidence to the prayer for recovery.  But there were a few bigger ones: cancers going into remission and such.  

 

There was a guy in a wheelchair that used to be very active in our men's ministry and prayer group.  I always prayed, and believed, he'd rise up and walk someday.  Toward the end of my deconversion, an evangelist came to the church; and he did that thing where he called people out of the audience and had them come forward to receive a special "word" from god.  Anyway, he called me out specifically; so I walked to the front of the church (1,500 member church, by the way).  He asked me if I was ready to hear what god had for me.  I pointed over at Jimmy sitting in his wheelchair, and said, "Tell that man to get up and walk.  If he does, I'll know you're of god and I'll accept your prophecy."

 

Long, very awkward silence...

 

And then I made my way back to my seat. 

 

I still don't know what god wanted to tell me that night; but I do know that Jimmy is still in that god damn wheelchair. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, pantheory said:

 

I agree with your assessment but don't hear much from others concerning religion, even though I have random conversations with strangers fairly often. I never ask anyone concerning their religion because I'm not really interested, and therefore they never tell me. The only place I ever discuss religion with anyone is here :)

I enjoy browsing YouTube comments and replying to various claims. Mainly its Frank Turek's Cross Examined series. That was the first place I talked to a Christian who said the bible was all moral stories and not a single thing in it should be considered true. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Anyway, he called me out specifically; so I walked to the front of the church (1,500 member church, by the way).  He asked me if I was ready to hear what god had for me.  I pointed over at Jimmy sitting in his wheelchair, and said, "Tell that man to get up and walk.  If he does, I'll know you're of god and I'll accept your prophecy."

 

Long, very awkward silence...

 

And then I made my way back to my seat. 

That is freakin amazing.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/22/2022 at 3:30 PM, midniterider said:

We were all Christians once and while we said the bible was our holy book, it's often seen that atheists and other ex-believers know the bible better than the average Christian. And we ex-Christians pull out verses that intend to destroy the apologist ... then the apologist just says, "Yeah , whatever ... I don't find that passage particularly compelling." 

 

It's like the ex-believer goes full-blown literalist with every single word of the bible commanding fire-breathing compliance. The average Christian may be a lot less anal about the bible and possibly think we're a bit nutso. 

 

And so there is a disconnect between ex-C and Christian. A Christian may only believe or hold dear , a subset of the bible. Or may not believe in the bible much at all. They may just believe in Jesus and call that good. 

 

We would like to insist that in order to call their self a Christian they must be a fire-breathing literalist, emphasizing every jot and tittle of the word...but they aren't. And they don't have to be. 

 

 

 

I happen to agree with midniterider about the disconnect between Ex-Christian and Christian.  Many people who call themselves Christians wouldn't qualify as such using a literal reading of scripture to define what a Christian is.  And yet, as someone who plays Devil's Advocate with scripture, I find myself asking the following question.

 

If not the bible, then what?  That is, if the bible is not what defines a Christian, then what does?

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

I happen to agree with midniterider about the disconnect between Ex-Christian and Christian.  Many people who call themselves Christians wouldn't qualify as such using a literal reading of scripture to define what a Christian is.  And yet, as someone who plays Devil's Advocate with scripture, I find myself asking the following question.

 

If not the bible, then what?  That is, if the bible is not what defines a Christian, then what does?

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

As someone from the EO , the Church defines what a Christian is. If you look through the EO canons, they even deny anyone outside the EO is even a "Christian". The Bible is seen as emanation of sorts of the Church, but it is taught that interpreting the Bible outside the teachings of the Church brings more harm than good. 

      So in the EO, you are a Christian if you are a participating member in the Eastern Orthodox Church ( recognising and following the authority of a EO bishop, the dogmas and sacraments, and moral/mystical teachings).

    In a way, it's like being an American citizen, many people have no clue about the Constitution and  its interpretations, but they do recognise the authority of the government and at least to some extent follow their directions. And, like the Bible, it seems that the Constitution is, in practice, what the Supreme Court says it is, not your own ideas about it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's interesting Myrkhoos.

 

 

So, if the bible is an emanation (of sorts) of the Church, the EO Church predates the Fall from grace in Eden?

 

Why would there need to be a Church if Adam and Eve's relationship with god prior to the Fall wasn't broken?

 

And if the EO Church predates the entire bible, the EO Church existed before Genesis 1 : 1?

 

 

Not looking for a fight btw.  Just to understand something outside of my experience.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

I happen to agree with midniterider about the disconnect between Ex-Christian and Christian.  Many people who call themselves Christians wouldn't qualify as such using a literal reading of scripture to define what a Christian is.  And yet, as someone who plays Devil's Advocate with scripture, I find myself asking the following question.

 

If not the bible, then what?  That is, if the bible is not what defines a Christian, then what does?

 

Your thoughts?

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

I expect many people who define themselves as Christians in polls refer to their family tradition and  beliefs. I have known of many so-called Christians that knew little of the Bible, never read it, never go to church, and are generally not interested in religion or what others believe. Some of these people otherwise seem to be intelligent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, pantheory said:

 

I expect many people who define themselves as Christians in polls refer to their family tradition and  beliefs. I have known of many so-called Christians that knew little of the Bible, never read it, never go to church, and are generally not interested in religion or what others believe. Some of these people otherwise seem to be intelligent.

 

That's my experience too, Pantheory.

 

I suspect that there are many such 'nominal' Christians across the world.  But do such people visit this forum and assert that they have the guidance of the holy spirit or that they have had a revelation from god concerning this or that?  That's not in my experience.

 

But when such 'real' Christians do arrive and wish to debate, the only common denominator (usually) is the content of the bible.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

That's my experience too, Pantheory.

 

I suspect that there are many such 'nominal' Christians across the world.  But do such people visit this forum and assert that they have the guidance of the holy spirit or that they have had a revelation from god concerning this or that?  That's not in my experience.

 

But when such 'real' Christians do arrive and wish to debate, the only common denominator (usually) is the content of the bible.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

As to this forum, I expect few of such people ever come here, and the few that do are likely just lurkers and likely never comment IMO.

Yeah,, nearly all that come here are usually  committed Christians and "gospel" preachers.  btw, for years I never knew that declared Christians that come here do not have the right to give the comments of "like, thanks, funny", etc. It's not on their screen to be able to vote. Ed explained that to me recently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.