Hard core bible debate silliness

[Myrkhoos]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

That's interesting Myrkhoos.

 

 

So, if the bible is an emanation (of sorts) of the Church, the EO Church predates the Fall from grace in Eden?

First, what I meant was that the written canon called the Bible are an emanation of the Church, not the events described there. Even Paul hints at this when he talks about Abraham's covenant with God before the Torah was given on mount Sinai. The Church is the practical meeting place of God and man basically and that existed, taking the Bible at face value, long before any written Scripture.

Secondly, to your question.Well, actually, yes. Of course, not the present incarnation, but the Church is presented as the embodiment, in a way, of the Holy Spirit itself. Mind you, I m not using proper technical theological jargon, just trying to give the gist of what I understood. In a way, I got the impression that they believed that the Church always existed, in some transcendental form. So, Adam and Eve, before the Fall, in their comunion with God, were the Church. 

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Why would there need to be a Church if Adam and Eve's relationship with god prior to the Fall wasn't broken?

Well, their relationship with God IS the Church. As I said the Church is the meeting place of God and Man. That is why it is often said to be the Body of Christ, who is seen as having both human and divine natures, united in one Person, undivided but unmingled.

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

And if the EO Church predates the entire bible, the EO Church existed before Genesis 1 : 1?

I answered in my first paragraph.

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Not looking for a fight btw.  Just to understand something outside of my experience.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

No fight, because I have nothing to gain, I don't really believe all this stuff now. 

 But I have seen people from protestant traditions having a hard time grasping this aspect of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, their very high ecclesiology. 

    As I said, the Eastern Orthodox Church now is seen as fulfilling the same role as a meeting place of God and Man, as God commanded. Of course people change, certain rituals may change, places change but it will still the Church even after the Final Judgement, actually then it will be in its highest glory.

      So, although you can say, historically, they maintain that the Church was founded by Jesus Christ, as an important marker, they view it as having this transcendental existence, being the embodiment of God's uncreated energies. An example of that theology is that many actually think the world only continues to exist because there EO sacred Lithurgy is being performed.

    If you want to go even further, you can even say the Trinity IS the Church, as the communion of divine persons. The Lithurgy is literally divine life. Yeah, some even go that far

[Myrkhoos]

By the way, don t ask how that was to supposed to work in detail bk I have no idea :)))

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

That's my experience too, Pantheory.

 

I suspect that there are many such 'nominal' Christians across the world.  But do such people visit this forum and assert that they have the guidance of the holy spirit or that they have had a revelation from god concerning this or that?  That's not in my experience.

 

But when such 'real' Christians do arrive and wish to debate, the only common denominator (usually) is the content of the bible.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

Aren't there people with a strong conviction for Jesus that aren't that well read in the bible? Aren't most bible thumpers not too scholarly in the Word?

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

First, what I meant was that the written canon called the Bible are an emanation of the Church, not the events described there. Even Paul hints at this when he talks about Abraham's covenant with God before the Torah was given on mount Sinai. The Church is the practical meeting place of God and man basically and that existed, taking the Bible at face value, long before any written Scripture.

Secondly, to your question.Well, actually, yes. Of course, not the present incarnation, but the Church is presented as the embodiment, in a way, of the Holy Spirit itself. Mind you, I m not using proper technical theological jargon, just trying to give the gist of what I understood. In a way, I got the impression that they believed that the Church always existed, in some transcendental form. So, Adam and Eve, before the Fall, in their comunion with God, were the Church. 

Well, their relationship with God IS the Church. As I said the Church is the meeting place of God and Man. That is why it is often said to be the Body of Christ, who is seen as having both human and divine natures, united in one Person, undivided but unmingled.

I answered in my first paragraph.

No fight, because I have nothing to gain, I don't really believe all this stuff now. 

 But I have seen people from protestant traditions having a hard time grasping this aspect of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, their very high ecclesiology. 

    As I said, the Eastern Orthodox Church now is seen as fulfilling the same role as a meeting place of God and Man, as God commanded. Of course people change, certain rituals may change, places change but it will still the Church even after the Final Judgement, actually then it will be in its highest glory.

      So, although you can say, historically, they maintain that the Church was founded by Jesus Christ, as an important marker, they view it as having this transcendental existence, being the embodiment of God's uncreated energies. An example of that theology is that many actually think the world only continues to exist because there EO sacred Lithurgy is being performed.

    If you want to go even further, you can even say the Trinity IS the Church, as the communion of divine persons. The Lithurgy is literally divine life. Yeah, some even go that far

 

Myrkhoos,

 

Thank you for an insight into what is (for me, at least) an very alien form of Christianity.

 

So, if an EO Christian were to turn up here looking to debate I think you'd be the best member for the job.

 

Thanks again,

 

Walter.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

48 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Aren't there people with a strong conviction for Jesus that aren't that well read in the bible? Aren't most bible thumpers not too scholarly in the Word?

 

True.

 

But then how do they know that what they 'feel' is what Jesus actually wants of them, midniterider?   This is the very point that the Redneck Prof and DarkBishop were discussing with Edgarcito recently.

 

Feeling-driven Christians can feel that Jesus is telling them to do things that are clearly and obviously NOT Christ-like.  I have some experience of this, btw.  Or rather, my wife does.  She is a friend of Angela, who was married to Mike.  That marriage was fine until Mike felt that god was telling him that his marriage to Angela was 'spiritually annulled'.  He left the marital home and took up with a (much) younger woman who also happened to worship at the same church as him.

 

How Christ-like is that?

 

If we are going to treat feelings and inner convictions as genuine, then almost anything can be justified in the name of Jesus.  But scripture enables us to keep a check on people's behaviour.  It sets a standard which they should strive to keep or at least aspire to.  Here's what the Redneck Prof had to say about this, yesterday.

 

Behavior is a dead giveaway to what a person really has inside of them.  Christians purport to have the holy spirit inside.  As such, it should be expected that they will exhibit the fruits of the spirit: loving-kindness, patience, peace, long-suffering.  When they display the complete opposite (as many do) that's a sure sign that either they don't have the holy spirit, or that the holy spirit just isn't real.

 

I quote this for truth.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

True.

 

But then how do they know that what they 'feel' is what Jesus actually wants of them, midniterider?   This is the very point that the Redneck Prof and DarkBishop were discussing with Edgarcito recently.

 

Feeling-driven Christians can feel that Jesus is telling them to do things that are clearly and obviously NOT Christ-like.  I have some experience of this, btw.  Or rather, my wife does.  She is a friend of Angela, who was married to Mike.  That marriage was fine until Mike felt that god was telling him that his marriage to Angela was 'spiritually annulled'.  He left the marital home and took up with a (much) younger woman who also happened to worship at the same church as him.

 

How Christ-like is that?

 

If we are going to treat feelings and inner convictions as genuine, then almost anything can be justified in the name of Jesus.  But scripture enables us to keep a check on people's behaviour.  It sets a standard which they should strive to keep or at least aspire to.  Here's what the Redneck Prof had to say about this, yesterday.

 

Behavior is a dead giveaway to what a person really has inside of them.  Christians purport to have the holy spirit inside.  As such, it should be expected that they will exhibit the fruits of the spirit: loving-kindness, patience, peace, long-suffering.  When they display the complete opposite (as many do) that's a sure sign that either they don't have the holy spirit, or that the holy spirit just isn't real.

 

I quote this for truth.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

I don't believe this to be true at all Walter.  Certainly works demonstrate belief, but their still remains the battle with what got you there in the first place.  Reasonably sure even the Bible describes this as a race and process towards holiness.  

[pantheory]

15 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Aren't there people with a strong conviction for Jesus that aren't that well read in the bible? Aren't most bible thumpers not too scholarly in the Word?

 

I haven't read the percentages but I'm sure you're tight, There are a lot of committed believers and regular church goers that know little concerning the content of the Bible.

[Myrkhoos]

7 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Myrkhoos,

 

Thank you for an insight into what is (for me, at least) an very alien form of Christianity.

 

So, if an EO Christian were to turn up here looking to debate I think you'd be the best member for the job.

 

Thanks again,

 

Walter.

 

 

I would like to add something. Some personal speculation here, but fun nonetheless. I suspect that the EO Church gained a lot of "transcendental" attributtes during the long period of living mostly under Muslim rule. From being one with the Eastern Roman state, they became a second class citizen religious minority in their own previous lands. This must have been traumatic. So they "moved" the Church supremacy from the earthly realm, where it clearly wasn't anymore, into the heavenly realm. The Church on earth remained identified with local Christians, as the patriarch was the official legal leader of the EO in the Ottoman millet system. I compare this to Israel's babylonian exile, where ideas of the afterlife, End Times begins to get traction.

    When the material dissapears, people turn to the mystical. I think you can see this with the rabbinical Jews. From a military nation , in exile they turned into an inward looking nation of scholars, and the Jewish nation itself grew in its transcendental properties.

      

[Myrkhoos]

6 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

True.

 

But then how do they know that what they 'feel' is what Jesus actually wants of them, midniterider?   This is the very point that the Redneck Prof and DarkBishop were discussing with Edgarcito recently.

 

Feeling-driven Christians can feel that Jesus is telling them to do things that are clearly and obviously NOT Christ-like.  I have some experience of this, btw.  Or rather, my wife does.  She is a friend of Angela, who was married to Mike.  That marriage was fine until Mike felt that god was telling him that his marriage to Angela was 'spiritually annulled'.  He left the marital home and took up with a (much) younger woman who also happened to worship at the same church as him.

 

How Christ-like is that?

 

If we are going to treat feelings and inner convictions as genuine, then almost anything can be justified in the name of Jesus.  But scripture enables us to keep a check on people's behaviour.  It sets a standard which they should strive to keep or at least aspire to.  Here's what the Redneck Prof had to say about this, yesterday.

 

Behavior is a dead giveaway to what a person really has inside of them.  Christians purport to have the holy spirit inside.  As such, it should be expected that they will exhibit the fruits of the spirit: loving-kindness, patience, peace, long-suffering.  When they display the complete opposite (as many do) that's a sure sign that either they don't have the holy spirit, or that the holy spirit just isn't real.

 

I quote this for truth.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

Well, let me give you some good ol'EO wisdom here :)). So there this Russian saint from the 19th century called Ignatius Brianchaninov. He said there are two kinds of virtues - gospel virtue and fallen nature virtue. So there is gospel peace, there is fallen peace, gospel love, fallen love, etc, and one must give up fallen virtues in order to get gospel virtues. This to mean that the idea that an outsider can judge gospel virtue by his own fallen virtue standard is ludicrous. But...Scripture.. you can argue says other stuff. Again, from the EO perspective, Scripture is NOT a tool for outsiders, much like the sacraments.

      The New Testament was written by members of the early church to other members of the early church, it was not a mission manual or some textbook. Scripture is to be read only with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which is found only in the Church life. Otherwise, what outsiders read might be the same new testament a practicing EO reads, but the understanding is totally different. 

    This means you, Walter, may think behaviour X is not Christ like, but your opinion should basically less than nothing to a practicing EO member, as your mind is darkened by the unrepenting fallen nature and probably demonic beings so you, ACTUALLY, have no idea what Christ-like means.

    BUT, on the "I feel X so I should do X" well, the EO Church has soooo many canons and a strict hierarchy, that those feelings first have to be certified as legitimate. In the case you presented, one would go to a priest confessor and say about the "spiritual anullement", and 99 percent of priests would tell him that is demonic delusion, that there is no spiritual anullement by feeling :)) This a sort of advantage of a large institution, your "freedom" is very tightly limited. Like you might feel you should get your wife flowers, ok, you don't have to go through the institution for that, but for anything remotely serious that isn't, at least theoretically, the case ( in practice...things tend to be more lax in recent times, but still)

[walterpthefirst]

7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't believe this to be true at all Walter.  Certainly works demonstrate belief, but their still remains the battle with what got you there in the first place.  Reasonably sure even the Bible describes this as a race and process towards holiness.  

 

Exactly, Ed.

 

The common feature of both a race and a process is progress.  There must be some indication of progress away from darkness and towards light in the conduct of the believer.  Repeated, un-Christ like behaviour is an indicator that no progress is being made.  That the process is not working and the race is not being run. The bible also describes those who cannot get further than the starting line.

 

2 Peter 2 : 20 - 22

 

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 

21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 

22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

And just as the Redneck Prof said, the indicator of this is their behaviour.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

17 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't believe this to be true at all Walter.  Certainly works demonstrate belief, but their still remains the battle with what got you there in the first place.  Reasonably sure even the Bible describes this as a race and process towards holiness.  

 

Of course you don't think this is true Ed. You don't follow the Bible to the letter. There are rules and descriptions of how a Christian should present themselves to the world as believers. 

    Your belief seems to be based more on feelings than the letter of the law so to say. I stated before if I had a lax interpretation of the Bible as you do, being a Christian and dealing with biblical fallacies wouldn't have been much of an issue for me. And that's good for you Ed because that allows you to live your life as you see fit without worrying about the danger of going to Hell.

     But if I were still a Christian lurking on this site. And I came across the lions den and saw how you spoke sometimes. And how you believe. I would call you a luke warm Christian. And I would lump you in the category of one of those that God will spue from his mouth in the judgment. 

 

Rev. Ch. 3

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 

Or that Jesus would tell you to depart.

 

Matt. Ch 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

I'm not trying to tell you that you need to live differently. Im glad you have a lax stance on biblical rules and regulations. I put myself through hell at times trying to make sure I was going to get into heaven. (Pun intended ) The bottom line is your belief allows you to live. Mine didn't. Try to be in a church that thinks you need to be sinless after salvation. And then start studying everything that can be a sin or send you to hell. Its like walking on egg shells.

 

The ones I've seen come here that are probably true Christians don't last long. They try to re-convert us with whatever hair brained revelation they have seen in the bible. And when that doesn't work they leave. To continue living in their emotional/faith driven delusion of life. 

 

DB

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Myrkhoos,

 

Thanks once more for the insights into how the EO church functions.  In can truly say that I'm bemused and mystified by what you describe.  As I mentioned before, should and EO Christian arrive here I will probably step well back and not engage them in debate.  Their brand of Christianity is so far removed from what I've experienced as to be an 'alien language'.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 9/24/2022 at 5:50 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

There was a guy in a wheelchair that used to be very active in our men's ministry and prayer group.  I always prayed, and believed, he'd rise up and walk someday.  Toward the end of my deconversion, an evangelist came to the church; and he did that thing where he called people out of the audience and had them come forward to receive a special "word" from god.  Anyway, he called me out specifically; so I walked to the front of the church (1,500 member church, by the way).  He asked me if I was ready to hear what god had for me.  I pointed over at Jimmy sitting in his wheelchair, and said, "Tell that man to get up and walk.  If he does, I'll know you're of god and I'll accept your prophecy."

 

When this happened did the church already know you were losing faith? I kind of wonder what he was going to say. I imagine that if the pastor gave him a heads up about your troubles with the faith that he probably would have given you a "message from God" to sway you in what he felt was the "right" direction. 

 

I really like what you had to say to him tho. That really stopped him in his tracks lol. 

 

    There were a couple times that I felt there God gave me something to tell an individual. One time it was when my wife and I first met. She had been through a bad relationship. And she was still hurt. And I felt that she was walking in darkness and having a hard time finding her way out but that God was going to make a way. 

 

But I knew what she was going through. So that wasn't really a prophesy. But I felt compelled to tell her that. Like you said. I was just kind of reading her by her actions and knew she was having trouble. So really it was just me giving her some words of encouragement. Not really a "message from God". But I didn't see it that way then. 

 

DB

[TheRedneckProfessor]

29 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

When this happened did the church already know you were losing faith? I kind of wonder what he was going to say. I imagine that if the pastor gave him a heads up about your troubles with the faith that he probably would have given you a "message from God" to sway you in what he felt was the "right" direction. 

This would not have been a likely scenario.  I kept my struggles more or less to myself.  Keep in mind, in my church, behavior was paramount.  The correlation to that was "keeping up the image".  I appeared to be just as strong and determined in my faith as ever until the very last moment, at which point I simply disappeared from the church altogether.  I've only ever set foot in the church 2 or 3 times since then.

 

Of course, not a single person from the church ever once reached out to me once I left.  You know, like jesus would have done.  Not even the men in the ministries I was involved in.  Everybody just seemed to accept that I was there one Sunday and then never seen or heard from again.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Of course, not a single person from the church ever once reached out to me once I left.  You know, like jesus would have done.  Not even the men in the ministries I was involved in.  Everybody just seemed to accept that I was there one Sunday and then never seen or heard from again.

 

Wow thats cold. I have to say. I have had a few of the ministers from the gospel assembly that I was close to contact me over the years. One of which unfortunately is seeing things but still trying to believe the Bible is true. To the point he is getting sucked in to the flat earth fanatics. Its sad honestly. 

 

But I guess they gotta get kudos for atleast checking in from time to time and try to "win me back to the lord". It was honestly like a real life lions den debate one time. But he's a good guy. Just brainwashed. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

Wow thats cold. I have to say.

In a way or two, I was relieved it played out like that.  Because once I was done with religion, that was it.  I was done done, not just done.  So, not having to explain to 17-or-so-odd inquisitors why I hadn't been coming around to the church was fine by me.  Plus, at that point, I wasn't really ready to open up to too many other people about what had happened.  It was cold; no doubt about that.  But it didn't really upset me all that much.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

In a way or two, I was relieved it played out like that.  Because once I was done with religion, that was it.  I was done done, not just done.  So, not having to explain to 17-or-so-odd inquisitors why I hadn't been coming around to the church was fine by me.  Plus, at that point, I wasn't really ready to open up to too many other people about what had happened.  It was cold; no doubt about that.  But it didn't really upset me all that much.

I can see why. I get it. 

 

How long after that incident you mentioned did you leave the church? The one with the guy in the wheel chair. 

 

Not trying to be nosy. Just sounded like you pretty much had your mind made up in your post when you said that. Did they chastise you for doing that? 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

How long after that incident you mentioned did you leave the church? The one with the guy in the wheel chair. 

Couple of months, maybe.  Not long.

 

3 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Did they chastise you for doing that? 

My church didn't have a formal method of chastising a person.  They much preferred to just gossip about people behind their backs.  You know, like jesus would do.

[Myrkhoos]

On 9/26/2022 at 6:25 PM, walterpthefirst said:

Myrkhoos,

 

Thanks once more for the insights into how the EO church functions.  In can truly say that I'm bemused and mystified by what you describe.  As I mentioned before, should and EO Christian arrive here I will probably step well back and not engage them in debate.  Their brand of Christianity is so far removed from what I've experienced as to be an 'alien language'.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter. 

The funny thing is, as a native Romanian, being SO accustomed to the local EO church, even as not really into it adolescent, to me the protestant churches, especially the newer American born ones like Seventh day Adventist, looked so far removed that me and me friends couldn't help ourselves but be amused. Even now when I see them, they SO clearly out of step with Romanian culture.

    I mean even now, here, being a very ex protestant majority place, I get this....strange feeling :)).

Just goes to show you how Christianity, and many other big religios, can have so much inner variety

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

7 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

The funny thing is, as a native Romanian, being SO accustomed to the local EO church, even as not really into it adolescent, to me the protestant churches, especially the newer American born ones like Seventh day Adventist, looked so far removed that me and me friends couldn't help ourselves but be amused. Even now when I see them, they SO clearly out of step with Romanian culture.

    I mean even now, here, being a very ex protestant majority place, I get this....strange feeling :)).

Just goes to show you how Christianity, and many other big religios, can have so much inner variety

 

 

I felt the same way when you were describing the EO beliefs. I was racking my brain trying to figure out what scripture they use. Lol. 

 

Do you know what scriptures they use for all of that?

 

Itd be nice to see what the thought process is behind belief. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

@TheRedneckProfessor

 

After talking about all of this I ended up having a dream that I was debating with one of my old minister friends from the assembly. It was weird. I didn't re-convert even in my dream tho.  

 

Or maybe that was God speaking to me

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

14 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

The funny thing is, as a native Romanian, being SO accustomed to the local EO church, even as not really into it adolescent, to me the protestant churches, especially the newer American born ones like Seventh day Adventist, looked so far removed that me and me friends couldn't help ourselves but be amused. Even now when I see them, they SO clearly out of step with Romanian culture.

    I mean even now, here, being a very ex protestant majority place, I get this....strange feeling :)).

Just goes to show you how Christianity, and many other big religios, can have so much inner variety

 

 

Myrkhoos,

 

You've just pinpointed something that I think must be common to ALL people raised in a certain religious belief system, monotheistic or otherwise.

 

They become so accustomed to the beliefs, traditions and the mindset of their peers that they just accept it as the only possible norm.

 

Then, when they come across radically different traditions and radically different interpretations of the same holy texts they are as bemused and confused as we are.

 

And when it comes to actually thinking rationally about what they've been raised to believe they nearly always struggle to do it.

 

Not because they can't think rationally, but because they have such a strong emotional bias against questioning everything that they were brought up to believe.

 

I'd hazard that this is why so many religious people refuse to examine their beliefs rationally.

 

Because they are too emotionally invested in them to want to do without them.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

15 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

The funny thing is, as a native Romanian, being SO accustomed to the local EO church

I don't know about Romania, but the Eastern Orthodox priests I came across during my travels throughout Ukraine all had the look of some kind of Charlie Manson/Rasputin hybrid.

[Myrkhoos]

14 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I felt the same way when you were describing the EO beliefs. I was racking my brain trying to figure out what scripture they use. Lol. 

 

Do you know what scriptures they use for all of that?

 

Itd be nice to see what the thought process is behind belief. 

Even that question - what scriptures they use for all of that is, for me, as a gut first reaction ( the mental habit kicks in) seems weird. Like the Church says it, end of question, the fact that is or isn't in Scripture is of no real importance. I know, shocking, right, try telling this to your ordinary Evangelical.

     This is what I keep trying to say. It seems to me that in protestant circles the Church and a Christian is what the Bible they should be, it is the bedrock of all later judgement ( Sola Scriptura) and in the EO the Biblie says and a Christian is what the Church says it is. Church doctrine and practice is at the bedrock. Don't get me wrong, they use Scripture massively, read from ot every Lithurgy, and the priest has to make a sermon based on the specific gospel text, there are numerous commentaries, it's not "forgotten" as some Protestants try to accuse the EO. But the Church interpretation is what really matters - seven ecumenical councils considered infaillible. Yes, really infaillible as the dogmatic material resulted is considered the work of the Holy Spirit. 

     In fact, I think the spirit of the EO Church is much closer to rabbinical Judaism. They are very Torah centric of course, but as one rabbi put, if they had to choose between keeping the Oral Torah or written Torah, they would choose the oral Torah. They consider the Oral Torah the explanation and expansion of the written Torah, without which you can't really "do" Judaism. The same EO has Holy Tradition, it's oral Torah of sorts. 

[Myrkhoos]

6 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I don't know about Romania, but the Eastern Orthodox priests I came across during my travels throughout Ukraine all had the look of some kind of Charlie Manson/Rasputin hybrid.

I venture to it's a slavic thing. Slavs, especially the eastern slavs have a flair for the dramatic. As one Romanian monk out it when discussing the extreme instability of the Russian psyche , the Russian is either a saint or a swine, in the night he parties like crazy, in the morning he starts praying with tears of repetance, and the next night starts again, all without any trace of hipocrisy :)). 

      Romanian priests tend to be more laid back and old monks have Santa Claus vibe This is father Cleopa, widely regarded as a saint in my country,died in the late 90s I think. But maybe he also looks Rasputinesc to you :)).

.    To me, protestant pastors look like from a Coca Cola commercial, and my God that emphatic style of preaching borrowed from the Americans sounds positively hilarious in Romanian.

   This father Cleopa had some really hilarious dialogues with some Protestants. Thousands would flock to see him. Where you can really the clash of cultures. I read some.

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