Hard core bible debate silliness

[Myrkhoos]

8 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Myrkhoos,

 

You've just pinpointed something that I think must be common to ALL people raised in a certain religious belief system, monotheistic or otherwise.

 

They become so accustomed to the beliefs, traditions and the mindset of their peers that they just accept it as the only possible norm.

 

Then, when they come across radically different traditions and radically different interpretations of the same holy texts they are as bemused and confused as we are.

 

And when it comes to actually thinking rationally about what they've been raised to believe they nearly always struggle to do it.

 

Not because they can't think rationally, but because they have such a strong emotional bias against questioning everything that they were brought up to believe.

 

I'd hazard that this is why so many religious people refuse to examine their beliefs rationally.

 

Because they are too emotionally invested in them to want to do without them.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

Well, you kind of described the main reason I drifted away from the EO. I couldn't find any reason to reject all other belief systems other than my own. Why is what I think true and they are false? And the answers I got pretty much worked for the other side too. Sooo..

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

15 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

Even that question - what scriptures they use for all of that is, for me, as a gut first reaction ( the mental habit kicks in) seems weird. Like the Church says it, end of question, the fact that is or isn't in Scripture is of no real importance. I know, shocking, right, try telling this to your ordinary Evangelical.

     This is what I keep trying to say. It seems to me that in protestant circles the Church and a Christian is what the Bible they should be, it is the bedrock of all later judgement ( Sola Scriptura) and in the EO the Biblie says and a Christian is what the Church says it is. Church doctrine and practice is at the bedrock. Don't get me wrong, they use Scripture massively, read from ot every Lithurgy, and the priest has to make a sermon based on the specific gospel text, there are numerous commentaries, it's not "forgotten" as some Protestants try to accuse the EO. But the Church interpretation is what really matters - seven ecumenical councils considered infaillible. Yes, really infaillible as the dogmatic material resulted is considered the work of the Holy Spirit. 

     In fact, I think the spirit of the EO Church is much closer to rabbinical Judaism. They are very Torah centric of course, but as one rabbi put, if they had to choose between keeping the Oral Torah or written Torah, they would choose the oral Torah. They consider the Oral Torah the explanation and expansion of the written Torah, without which you can't really "do" Judaism. The same EO has Holy Tradition, it's oral Torah of sorts. 

 

I think they probably this belief from the same place the catholic do. It sounds like both churches have a lot of extra biblical beliefs and traditions. 

 

In Matt. Ch. 16 there is a conversation between Peter and Jesus. 

 

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[b] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

 

I think the catholic take a similar stance on church authority. It seems like there are a lot of extra biblical beliefs and teachings there to. 

 

This scripture is probably why they believe the priest has the power to forgive sins in the catholic church as well. That, praying to saints, and worshipping Mary are all things that evangelicals do not believe in. 

 

DB

 

Edit: we did not interpret this scripture the same way. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

On 9/29/2022 at 12:37 AM, Myrkhoos said:

I venture to it's a slavic thing.

They all seemed to have this vacant, mildly psychotic stare in their eyes (more so than the average Ukrainian,  anyway), almost like they were trying to affect an air of intimidating mysticism.  

[Myrkhoos]

19 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

They all seemed to have this vacant, mildly psychotic stare in their eyes (more so than the average Ukrainian,  anyway), almost like they were trying to affect an air of intimidating mysticism.  

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. That's definetly a slavic thing. I did not see that with the Romanians and greeks. It's a style, even their music is more sentimental and dramatic than greek music. Cold winters in savage places can do that to someone :)). Plus I think the legacy of trauma in Ukraine is just...fuck they've been through a lot. So a retreat into a kind of broken hearted mysticism is nothing to be suprised from :). 

.       Sidenote, well known Romanian priest JUST got caught ( text messages and all which seem true) with sexually harrassing women during confession. 

[Myrkhoos]

On 9/29/2022 at 11:02 PM, DarkBishop said:

 

I think they probably this belief from the same place the catholic do. It sounds like both churches have a lot of extra biblical beliefs and traditions. 

 

In Matt. Ch. 16 there is a conversation between Peter and Jesus. 

 

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[b] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

 

I think the catholic take a similar stance on church authority. It seems like there are a lot of extra biblical beliefs and teachings there to. 

 

This scripture is probably why they believe the priest has the power to forgive sins in the catholic church as well. That, praying to saints, and worshipping Mary are all things that evangelicals do not believe in. 

 

DB

 

Edit: we did not interpret this scripture the same way. 

Yeah, the ORTHODOX definetly reject Petrine supremacy from that quote though :)). The interpretation was that phrase - on that rock - was said to refer to the confession of Peter that Jesus is the Son of God and not on Peter himself. Also the part of keys of Heaven was said to be given to ALL the apostles, not Peter, and some even say to all believers - to some extent at least.

    However, I wouldn't say they thought the PRIEST himself had that power, more like he was the instrument God was working through, as, like I said he is living embodiment of the body of Christ.

   Now, the thing is, I never found anyone who literally thought that power was limitless. Like a bishop saying if you do not have sex with me I will not forgive your sins would be valid. No. The ritual of confession is valid if and only if BOTH the priest and the penitent work through Christ himself, i.e following the general letter and spirit of the Church canons. So it's not this free for all absolutist power bullshit some try to say it is - even some Orthodox are guilty of practically disrespecting their own dogma and exaggerating or misunderstanding Church authority. 

    I'm not defending as true or anything, but I do like to share what I've understood as clearly as possible. It's a doctrine of embodiment in lot of ways - true body and blood of Christ, all rituals have some matter attached to them, incense, water, wine, bread, myrrh, etc.God is transcendent but also imanent, in nature but beyond nature. That is where also relic worship comes from too. The bodies of deceased saints are said to be sanctified in a certain way. When they use the word pneumatofor, or spirit bearer, that should be obvious in your body as well. That is where saint veneration and Mary veneration come from as well.

     I really think when you REALLY come to grips with their theory of embodiment of holy grace, many things become much more easier to understand. I would include icons in here too.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

Plus I think the legacy of trauma in Ukraine is just...fuck they've been through a lot.

That is true.  Ms. Ex-neck's stepfather was just a little boy when they sent him from Odessa deep into Russia, beyond the Ural mountains.  He didn't understand why, until he returned years later and everyone he knew was dead, sent to Auschwitz or some such place.  Now, he has again had to flee, with his family this time.  They were safe in Israel last I heard...

[Shinzon]

On 9/22/2022 at 11:30 AM, midniterider said:

 

 

We would like to insist that in order to call their self a Christian they must be a fire-breathing literalist, emphasizing every jot and tittle of the word...but they aren't. And they don't have to be. 

 

 

It's part calling out no true Scotsman fallacies and calling out how cognitive dissonance warps terminology and ideas to favor the believing person.

 

 

 

 

[Wertbag]

1 hour ago, Shinzon said:

It's part calling out no true Scotsman fallacies and calling out how cognitive dissonance warps terminology and ideas to favor the believing person.

I find the no true Scotsman to be one of the most frustrating conversation killers.  Just recently I've had Christians say there are no such thing as ex-Christians, as all Christians are forever so falling out means you were never really in.  Doesn't matter what life you've lived; they know your mind and heart better than you.

Evil in the church?  Well, those weren't true Christians.  Inquisitions, witch burnings, racism, sexism...  All false Christians, as they didn't follow my specific modern set of morals.  The other denominations (JW, Mormon or Catholic)?  If they aren't in my denomination, then they are lead astray and are false.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, Wertbag said:

I find the no true Scotsman to be one of the most frustrating conversation killers.  Just recently I've had Christians say there are no such thing as ex-Christians, as all Christians are forever so falling out means you were never really in.  Doesn't matter what life you've lived; they know your mind and heart better than you.

Evil in the church?  Well, those weren't true Christians.  Inquisitions, witch burnings, racism, sexism...  All false Christians, as they didn't follow my specific modern set of morals.  The other denominations (JW, Mormon or Catholic)?  If they aren't in my denomination, then they are lead astray and are false.

 

I can't stand the no true Scotsman stance. I would rather them believe that I was Christian, back slid, and am now destined for hell. Rather than say my whole Christian experience wasn't true. 

[Rev R]

I'm surprised that more Christians aren't into yoga. The poses are far less difficult than some of the contortions made to reinforce their god.

I don't know if I'd say that it's trying to force the apologist or evangelist into hardline literalism but rather than its demonstrating how one's idea of god matches up to what is supposed to be the definitive source on the matter. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]