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Goodbye Jesus

Faith, Logic, and Freedom


Edgarcito

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1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

The Bible says that God knew us before we were formed.  What do you make of those verses please.

Did god know Rosa Maria before she was formed?

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30 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Did god know Rosa Maria before she was formed?

Didn't we have this conversation already.

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Are you not comfortable in your stance now.  

 

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9 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Didn't we have this conversation already.

Yes, but obviously you were not paying attention. 

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9 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Are you not comfortable in your stance now.  

 

Quite comfortable, thanks. 

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12 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Yes, but obviously you were not paying attention. 

Yea I was...and gave you an answer as to what I thought about those that get caught in the crossfire.

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Do you have a goal for me here.   Let me ask one question that popped into mind....more reasoning within or outside the Bible, a disclaimer now.  The Bible says that God knew us before we were formed.  What do you make of those verses please.  I'm not asking you to participate in a Bible study, but kind of enjoy the MWC type visits more than let's hang Ed on a daily basis. Thx. (and a preemptive strike.....I'm mostly through with the thoughts that were at hand....so I'm not anticipating moving back to those points.)  Thx.

I get tired of hanging you on a daily basis too Ed. We need another Johnny!! 🤣 

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37 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Yea I was...and gave you an answer as to what I thought about those that get caught in the crossfire.

True.  But then your answer was rebutted.  Normally that would be the point at which you attempt to offer further support for your answer, or offer counterpoints to the rebuttals.  Or, concede the argument. 

 

Now, you'll have to pardon me if I erroneously assumed that you wanted to discuss faith, logic, and free will in a thread which you started, and which you entitled "Faith, Logic, and Freedom."  But if you're ready to change the subject, I recommend starting a different thread.  

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2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

True.  But then your answer was rebutted.  Normally that would be the point at which you attempt to offer further support for your answer, or offer counterpoints to the rebuttals.  Or, concede the argument. 

 

Now, you'll have to pardon me if I erroneously assumed that you wanted to discuss faith, logic, and free will in a thread which you started, and which you entitled "Faith, Logic, and Freedom."  But if you're ready to change the subject, I recommend starting a different thread.  

 

Professor,

 

 

Could I please ask that the creation of a new thread involving Edgarcito be deferred until this one has run it's course?

 

There are three relevant and on-topic questions that I've put to him over the last 24 hours that he hasn't responded to.

 

What he says in his replies is of great interest to me and, no doubt also to you, DB and other members.

 

There's little doubt in my mind that what he says (or doesn't say) will generate further questions.

 

I therefore submit that this thread still has a lot more potential to serve the interests of this forum.

 

Thank you for your consideration.

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Do you have a goal for me here. 

 

 

Edgarcito,

 

I realize that this question was intended for the Professor.  However, for the sake of transparency and honesty I'd like to use your question to declare my hand.

 

I have a goal for you in this thread.  Or rather, two linked goals.

 

The first is to get sincere responses from your moral compass, just as you gave in the 'rattlesnake in your garden' scenario.

 

The second is for you to compare what your moral compass tells you is good with the morality god displays in the bible.

 

It's my sincere belief that you are far more moral and good than the god of the bible.

 

But I would like you to see, realize and discover this for yourself, here in this thread.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

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24 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Professor,

 

 

Could I please ask that the creation of a new thread involving Edgarcito be deferred until this one has run it's course?

 

There are three relevant and on-topic questions that I've put to him over the last 24 hours that he hasn't responded to.

 

What he says in his replies is of great interest to me and, no doubt also to you, DB and other members.

 

There's little doubt in my mind that what he says (or doesn't say) will generate further questions.

 

I therefore submit that this thread still has a lot more potential to serve the interests of this forum.

 

Thank you for your consideration.

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, I completely agree with you, Walt.  But, Ed has preemptively declared that he will no longer participate in any discussion that he doesn't like.  Obviously, he doesn't like your questions; otherwise you wouldn't be pulling teeth out of a narwhal trying to get an answer from him.  I have no intention of locking this thread, nor of getting involved in a new one myself, any time soon.  But I don't have a whole lot of faith that Ed's going to respond.  I think he knows he's been soundly thrashed here and will need time to lick his wounds.  Carry on, though, if you please; Ed has surprised me a time or two in the past.

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11 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Thank you!

No problem.  While we wait, please enjoy this song about a narwhal eating a bagel.

 

 

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Hmmm... there appears to be a gap in David's understanding of the narwhal's tusk.

 

If I had his e-mail I'd pass your video on to him, Prof.

 

😉

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On 10/31/2022 at 11:48 AM, Edgarcito said:

It appears to me that there is always a group of people that opt out of choosing God.

What about people like us that chose God. And for whatever various reason decided to leave the fold?

 

DB

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Posted 15 hours ago

  16 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Did god know Rosa Maria before she was formed?

Didn't we have this conversation already.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Yes indeed.  The two of you discussed these matters already. 

 

But in the light of what Edgarcito wrote about god knowing us before we are formed, I can offer a biblical explanation for why Rosa Maria died in such a horrible way.  This explanation answers the Prof's questions as to why god didn't intervene to protect and save her from sexual abuse, torture and death. 

 

Here it is.

 

Romans 9 : 10 - 16

 

 10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 

12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 

15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

 

 

And there is the answer.

 

Just as god hated Esau before he was born or had done anything good or bad, so god must have hated Rosa Maria before she was born or had done anything good or bad.  Esau prayed to reverse god's decision about him, but as scripture tells us, god does not change his mind. 

 

 

Malachi 3 : 6  “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.”

 

Numbers 23 : 19   “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfil?”

 

 

Therefore, even if Rosa Maria had prayed to god to save her or simply end the horror by killing her, nothing she could do could change god's mind.  As far as god was concerned her free will didn't exist.  Nor was there any point in her 'learning' anything by what she was experiencing.  Because god hated her, he destined her to suffer, die and go to hell. 

 

Which means that her parents and relations loved her, even when god didn't. 

 

Perhaps that will be of some small comfort to her as she writhes in unending agony?

 

Thank you,

 

Walter. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

Posted 15 hours ago

  16 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Did god know Rosa Maria before she was formed?

Didn't we have this conversation already.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Yes indeed.  The two of you discussed these matters already. 

 

But in the light of what Edgarcito wrote about god knowing us before we are formed, I can offer a biblical explanation for why Rosa Maria died in such a horrible way.  This explanation answers the Prof's questions as to why god didn't intervene to protect and save her from sexual abuse, torture and death. 

 

Here it is.

 

Romans 9 : 10 - 16

 

 10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 

12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 

15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

 

 

And there is the answer.

 

Just as god hated Esau before he was born or had done anything good or bad, so god must have hated Rosa Maria before she was born or had done anything good or bad.  Esau prayed to reverse god's decision about him, but as scripture tells us, god does not change his mind. 

 

 

Malachi 3 : 6  “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.”

 

Numbers 23 : 19   “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfil?”

 

 

Therefore, even if Rosa Maria had prayed to god to save her or simply end the horror by killing her, nothing she could do could change god's mind.  As far as god was concerned her free will didn't exist.  Nor was there any point in her 'learning' anything by what she was experiencing.  Because god hated her, he destined her to suffer, die and go to hell. 

 

Which means that her parents and relations loved her, even when god didn't. 

 

Perhaps that will be of some small comfort to her as she writhes in unending agony?

 

Thank you,

 

Walter. 

 

 

 

 

Thats something you'll never hear from the pulpit. No one would ever want to serve a God like that. Well except sadistic sex traffickers and child killers.

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Here's a general question that I'm just throwing out there, directed at no one in particular.  If the god of the bible was real, and if the god of the bible appeared and was prepared to explain why he allows such evil and depravity to befall innocent children, is there any explanation he could offer that would satisfy you?  Is there any justification he could give for what happened to Rosa Maria that would be acceptable to your personal morality?  Is there any excuse that he could make that you would find morally admissible? 

 

Note, I'm not asking how this god would justify it, or what explanation he might give.  I am only curious if there is any explanation he could give that would satisfy your own personal sense of morality.

 

My answer:  No.  If he were truly all-powerful and all-loving, then he would be capable of coming up with a better plan that did not involve a little girl being trafficked, beaten, raped, and murdered for no other purpose than gratuitous evil in order to teach christians a lesson about holiness.  There is simply no excuse whatsoever.  

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3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Here's a general question that I'm just throwing out there, directed at no one in particular.  If the god of the bible was real, and if the god of the bible appeared and was prepared to explain why he allows such evil and depravity to befall innocent children, is there any explanation he could offer that would satisfy you?  Is there any justification he could give for what happened to Rosa Maria that would be acceptable to your personal morality?  Is there any excuse that he could make that you would find morally admissible? 

 

Note, I'm not asking how this god would justify it, or what explanation he might give.  I am only curious if there is any explanation he could give that would satisfy your own personal sense of morality.

 

My answer:  No.  If he were truly all-powerful and all-loving, then he would be capable of coming up with a better plan that did not involve a little girl being trafficked, beaten, raped, and murdered for no other purpose than gratuitous evil in order to teach christians a lesson about holiness.  There is simply no excuse whatsoever.  

Thats gonna be a NO from my corner. There is to much scripture in the bible about the promises of God. The Love of God. Gods power. And even that God answering a faithful prayer to save Rosa would have been the very thing that glorified God a proved his own existence. 

 

Jesus showed affection toward children when his disciples tried to shew them away. 

 

Matthew 19

13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

 

In this scripture these children were sick and afflicted and needed to be healed. And Jesus corrected his disciples when they tried to send them away. 

 

So taking the Bible as a whole. And considering all the scriptural evidence about God and Jesus. There was no excuse for the biblical God to have not saved Rosa from such a horrible fate. 

 

I'll be the first to concede however that there is enough scripture in the bible to support Walter's post. And honestly it sickens me to know that someone could actually use the Bible to justify such horrendous acts. But as I said pages and pages ago in this thread. Its all in there. The Bible says all of it. It is filled with contradiction after contradiction.

 

God was going to let Abraham kill his son Isaac. He sent Joshua in to battle killing everyone, men women and children, it didn't matter what age they were to god. They were his enemy. Jephthah in Judges chapter 11 sacrifices his daughter because he made a vow to God. In the exodus story we see God harden Pharaoh's heart just so he could kill all the first born sons. Showing God's power and glory. ....... apparently. 

 

If the biblical God was real. He would reflect all the traits of the worst mental illnesses. It'd probably look something like this. 

 

Bipolarpsychosociopathnarcissistic disorder with multiple personalities. 

 

Ya really never know what God your getting with this one. 

 

DB

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2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Here's a general question that I'm just throwing out there, directed at no one in particular.  If the god of the bible was real, and if the god of the bible appeared and was prepared to explain why he allows such evil and depravity to befall innocent children, is there any explanation he could offer that would satisfy you?  Is there any justification he could give for what happened to Rosa Maria that would be acceptable to your personal morality?  Is there any excuse that he could make that you would find morally admissible? 

 

Note, I'm not asking how this god would justify it, or what explanation he might give.  I am only curious if there is any explanation he could give that would satisfy your own personal sense of morality.

 

My answer:  No.  If he were truly all-powerful and all-loving, then he would be capable of coming up with a better plan that did not involve a little girl being trafficked, beaten, raped, and murdered for no other purpose than gratuitous evil in order to teach christians a lesson about holiness.  There is simply no excuse whatsoever.  

Of the two choices regarding her/our circumstance, which one provides the greater relief, your perspective and remedy or the Christian perspective.

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6 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Of the two choices regarding her/our circumstance, which one provides the greater relief, your perspective and remedy or the Christian perspective.

To whom would we be attempting to provide relief, in your mind?  Me?  Rosa Maria?  Your conscience?  Either way, I don't see how holding a demonstrably evil god to be blameless, as the christian perspective does, would be of any use to anyone, let alone bring any relief.

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Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said:

To whom would we be attempting to provide relief, in your mind?  Me?  Rosa Maria?  Your conscience?  Either way, I don't see how holding a demonstrably evil god to be blameless, as the christian perspective does, would be of any use to anyone, let alone bring any relief.

Everyone involved.  Please explain how your perspective and remedy provides relief for.....let's start for Rosa's parents.

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1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Everyone involved.  Please explain how your perspective and remedy provides relief for.....let's start for Rosa's parents.

Please state what my perspective and remedy is.  After which, we will revisit the conversation we already had about how whatever shortcomings I may have do not exculpate god for his inaction.

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1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Please state what my perspective and remedy is.  After which, we will revisit the conversation we already had about how whatever shortcomings I may have do not exculpate god for his inaction.

Hell if I know, it's your perspective and remedy. 

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2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Hell if I know, it's your perspective and remedy. 

Would the shortcomings of my perspective automatically mean god is innocent of his inaction?  If not, then there is no reason to discuss it.  I am neither all-powerful nor am I all-loving.

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