Faith, Logic, and Freedom

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

27 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Of the two choices regarding her/our circumstance, which one provides the greater relief, your perspective and remedy or the Christian perspective.

He didn't ask you to answer with a question. You've actually already answered this question. Here let me help. On page 14 Ed said:

 

On 10/24/2022 at 12:49 PM, Edgarcito said:

No, I don't immediately know any good lesson I'm going to learn from the death, torture, or rape of my children.

 

So Ed's answer is No, with the clause, we'll know more of why God is such an ass when we die. 

[Edgarcito]

10 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Would the shortcomings of my perspective automatically mean god is innocent of his inaction?  If not, then there is no reason to discuss it.  I am neither all-powerful nor am I all-loving.

Do I need to get Walter and his donation clout to get you to answer the question....

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

He didn't ask you to answer with a question. You've actually already answered this question. Here let me help. On page 14 Ed said:

 

 

So Ed's answer is No, with the clause, we'll know more of why God is such an ass when we die. 

He keeps bringing Rosa up and bitching about God's inaction, real or unreal.  My question is a rather direct response if I choose unreal.  Now we have unreal but still have our circumstance.  You all have chosen unreal, so please answer the question.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

31 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Do I need to get Walter and his donation clout to get you to answer the question....

 

54 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

To whom would we be attempting to provide relief, in your mind?  Me?  Rosa Maria?  Your conscience?  Either way, I don't see how holding a demonstrably evil god to be blameless, as the christian perspective does, would be of any use to anyone, let alone bring any relief.

Unless you need Walt to help with your reading comprehension skills, there's no reason to get him involved.  I've already answered your question.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

51 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

He keeps bringing Rosa up and bitching about God's inaction, real or unreal.  My question is a rather direct response if I choose unreal.  Now we have unreal but still have our circumstance.  You all have chosen unreal, so please answer the question.

Maybe God will let you know my answer when you see him in heaven. 

 

Does that satisfy your curiosity? I mean. Thats the answer you gave us. If its good for you. Its good for me. I don't really like where you're going with this anyway. Or atleast where I think your going. Maybe you could clarify the question. 

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Of the two choices regarding her/our circumstance, which one provides the greater relief, your perspective and remedy or the Christian perspective.

 

What are you defining as relief?

What are you defining as our perspective? 

What are you defining as the Christian perspective? 

 

I can't assume I know what your talking about. Your Christian is different than my Christian. 

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

Well, I've still got three unanswered questions just waiting for Edgarcito.

 

But they can stay on hold because I'd like him to explain what he meant by this.  Please.

 

 

Do I need to get Walter and his donation clout to get you to answer the question....

[walterpthefirst]

It occurs to me that if Edgarcito is sick and tired of Rosa Maria, maybe he would like to try discussing Esau?

 

We know the following things from scripture.

 

1.  God does not change his mind.

 

2. God declared that he hated Esau.

 

3.  God is eternal.

 

Since god is eternal, he always hated Esau.  Even before the universe was created, either in 6 days or 13.7 billion years ago, god hated Esau.  That's because he does not and cannot change his mind.  Nor can his mind be changed by the choices of a human being like Esau. 

 

Which means that even if Esau had free will, god would not respect it. 

 

What's the point of being able to freely choose if your choice cannot change god's mind about you? 

 

Care to argue the case for Esau having meaningful free will, Edgarcito? 

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Of the two choices regarding her/our circumstance, which one provides the greater relief, your perspective and remedy or the Christian perspective.

 

If god has made his mind up to hate someone then there is no possible relief for them.

 

It's there in b&w in the bible.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Thats gonna be a NO from my corner. There is to much scripture in the bible about the promises of God. The Love of God. Gods power. And even that God answering a faithful prayer to save Rosa would have been the very thing that glorified God a proved his own existence. 

 

Jesus showed affection toward children when his disciples tried to shew them away. 

 

Matthew 19

13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

 

In this scripture these children were sick and afflicted and needed to be healed. And Jesus corrected his disciples when they tried to send them away. 

 

So taking the Bible as a whole. And considering all the scriptural evidence about God and Jesus. There was no excuse for the biblical God to have not saved Rosa from such a horrible fate. 

 

I'll be the first to concede however that there is enough scripture in the bible to support Walter's post. And honestly it sickens me to know that someone could actually use the Bible to justify such horrendous acts. But as I said pages and pages ago in this thread. Its all in there. The Bible says all of it. It is filled with contradiction after contradiction.

 

God was going to let Abraham kill his son Isaac. He sent Joshua in to battle killing everyone, men women and children, it didn't matter what age they were to god. They were his enemy. Jephthah in Judges chapter 11 sacrifices his daughter because he made a vow to God. In the exodus story we see God harden Pharaoh's heart just so he could kill all the first born sons. Showing God's power and glory. ....... apparently. 

 

If the biblical God was real. He would reflect all the traits of the worst mental illnesses. It'd probably look something like this. 

 

Bipolarpsychosociopathnarcissistic disorder with multiple personalities. 

 

Ya really never know what God your getting with this one. 

 

DB

 

There is another, scriptural way to explain why god behaves differently to different people, DB.

 

In the bible, those whom he shows love to are those he has already decided to love.

 

And those whom he doesn't show love to are those he has already decided to hate.

 

What they do, how they live, how they act and what choices they make are irrelevant.

 

God made his mind up (and cannot change it) before he created the universe.

 

So, any talk in scriptures of people freely choosing is just bs, for the benefit of 'true' believers.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

There is another, scriptural way to explain why god behaves differently to different people, DB.

 

In the bible, those whom he shows love to are those he has already decided to love.

 

And those whom he doesn't show love to are those he has already decided to hate.

 

What they do, how they live, how they act and what choices they make are irrelevant.

 

God made his mind up (and cannot change it) before he created the universe.

 

So, any talk in scriptures of people freely choosing is just bs, for the benefit of 'true' believers.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

But it also flies in the face of any promises that God made to people in general in the new testament. Or for that matter his promises to his chosen people Isreal in the old testament. He is constantly changing his mind about his people in the old testament according to the obedience or disobedience of his people. 

 

And that flies in the face of your argument. Because he does change his mind in some instances. 

 

But again..... the Bible says all of it. And they are all contradictory to each other. We can't have a God that is eternal and doesn't change his mind if he obviously changes his mind. We can't have a God thats the same yesterday today and forever that in one scripture passes down heretical sins of the father and then in Ezekiel 18 says that the son will not be held accountable for his fathers sins. Or one that is ok with divorce and multiple wives in the old testament and denies divorce and promotes monogamy in the new testament. Or a God that kills children in the old testament and suffers the little children to come to be healed in the new testament. It just doesn't fit. 

 

It is just more evidence that the Bible was written by people with multiple different beliefs about God, and not the inspired word of one God. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Also all the points about contradictions that @TheRedneckProfessorhas already made. I know your playing devils advocate. But I don't think you can even make all that fit together with one God. 

 

Unless like I said. That God is a very mentally troubled God. 

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

There is another, scriptural way to explain why god behaves differently to different people, DB.

 

In the bible, those whom he shows love to are those he has already decided to love.

 

And those whom he doesn't show love to are those he has already decided to hate.

 

What they do, how they live, how they act and what choices they make are irrelevant.

 

God made his mind up (and cannot change it) before he created the universe.

 

So, any talk in scriptures of people freely choosing is just bs, for the benefit of 'true' believers.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

So you are telling me that you and DB and the Prof and many here, that God has acted on your circumstance or in your body to change your mind about belief in Christ and there is nothing you can do about it, you have no choice in the matter.  Is that what you're saying?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

So you are telling me that you and DB and the Prof and many here, that God has acted on your circumstance or in your body to change your mind about belief in Christ and there is nothing you can do about it, you have no choice in the matter.  Is that what you're saying?

What the hell are you talking about. You should really answer my last question to you so we are all on the same page

[Edgarcito]

8 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

What the hell are you talking about. You should really answer my last question to you so we are all on the same page

You don't need me to define your perspective as a non-believer, as an individual.  I can't do that even if I wanted to.  And my questions are very straightforward.  No need in me guessing and then you faulting my guess.  Thanks, but no thanks.  Everyone is smart enough to know what I'm talking about.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

46 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You don't need me to define your perspective as a non-believer, as an individual.  I can't do that even if I wanted to.  And my questions are very straightforward.  No need in me guessing and then you faulting my guess.  Thanks, but no thanks.  Everyone is smart enough to know what I'm talking about.  

No your question wasn't straight forward. What relief are you talking about? We have been arguing A Christian perspective to you. From my Christian perspective if I take the Bible at face value God should have saved Rosa from this fate which would have "relieved" her parents fear and grief. Which they probably would have thanked God for doing so. 

 

From my non-christian perspective there isn't much that could have been done to aid Rosa. But there is something that could be done for future children. Push our various governing bodies (there are more than just Americans here) to crack down on child sex trafficking. Focus less on worrying about what two consenting adults do with one another. Focus less on whether a woman wants an abortion or not. Focus less on trying to take people rights away. And focus more on these crimes to humanity. That would provide relief to many families and victims. 

 

But I don't know exactly what you mean by relief and I don't know if I answered the question right because I can't fucking read minds. 

 

Goddammit Ed. Now where is the answer to my question. From the last page?

 

19 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

What about people like us that chose God. And for whatever various reason decided to leave the fold?

 

DB

 

Are you going to be one that says we never had it in the first place. Or one that says we fell away from God. Honestly, I would rather you accept that we once were true Christians. Because for me it is an insult and a slap in the face to say I never had it. Because I know how much I believed. I remember what I felt. 

 

This was just something I asked out of curiosity as a result of one of your posts. 

 

DB

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Is it really necessary for evil to exist in order for people to have free will?

 

Could an omnipotent god not have come up with a few harmless things to be "sinful" in order to effect free will for us without the sheer depravity of evil? 

 

Take smoking weed as an example.  Hypothetically, god could have said, "Listen guys, it's entirely up to you, no strings attached; but I really don't want you to smoke weed.  I'm going to declare it a 'sin'."  So, now we have free will, right?  It's entirely our choice whether we want to "sin" or not.  But, even if somebody decides they want to "sin," nobody else is going to get hurt.  Nobody's going to get raped or murdered because of it.

 

Because if a guy lights up a fatty for himself, he's not going to go out on some kind of rage-fueled crime spree.  He's not going to go out plundering and pillaging and trafficking little girls.  No.  He's going to sit in the corner giggling to himself and single-handedly keeping the Dorito factory in operation. 

 

So, now we have a situation in which people have free will to obey or disobey god; but there is a complete absence of evil.  Honestly, if a dumbass Redneck from out there where the foxes fuck can come up with such a simple solution, how could it possibly have been beyond the intellectual grasp of a supposedly omniscient god?

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

No your question wasn't straight forward. What relief are you talking about? We have been arguing A Christian perspective to you. From my Christian perspective if I take the Bible at face value God should have saved Rosa from this fate which would have "relieved" her parents fear and grief. Which they probably would have thanked God for doing so. 

 

From my non-christian perspective there isn't much that could have been done to aid Rosa. But there is something that could be done for future children. Push our various governing bodies (there are more than just Americans here) to crack down on child sex trafficking. Focus less on worrying about what two consenting adults do with one another. Focus less on whether a woman wants an abortion or not. Focus less on trying to take people rights away. And focus more on these crimes to humanity. That would provide relief to many families and victims. 

 

But I don't know exactly what you mean by relief and I don't know if I answered the question right because I can't fucking read minds. 

 

Goddammit Ed. Now where is the answer to my question. From the last page?

 

 

Are you going to be one that says we never had it in the first place. Or one that says we fell away from God. Honestly, I would rather you accept that we once were true Christians. Because for me it is an insult and a slap in the face to say I never had it. Because I know how much I believed. I remember what I felt. 

 

This was just something I asked out of curiosity as a result of one of your posts. 

 

DB

Years ago when I thought about that question, my conclusion then was you can give back/lose salvation.  I can't recall the reasoning.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

So you are telling me that you and DB and the Prof and many here, that God has acted on your circumstance or in your body to change your mind about belief in Christ and there is nothing you can do about it, you have no choice in the matter.  Is that what you're saying?

If god is in control, and if god has a plan for everybody, then that must be exactly what happened; otherwise it would not have happened.  I feel confident enough to speak for the others when I say that none of us would have chosen to lose our faith if we had genuine free will.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

8 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Years ago when I thought about that question, my conclusion then was you can give back/lose salvation.  I can't recall the reasoning.

Thats cool. Like I said. I'd rather you take that stance than say I never had it. 

 

I could give you some bible verses that talk about losing salvation that you probably had read or heard back then. One I used was actually Ezekiel 18 that I've already mentioned on this thread. 

 

Along with that I would include the verses that Walter has show how God doesn't change. 

 

Then I would go to some new testament verses. Like the one where Jesus spews the luke warm Christians out of his mouth saying I never knew you ye worker of iniquity. 

 

And then for a nice topper throw in.

 

James 2

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

That would be a good well rounded sermon about how one can lose salvation. 

 

Of course I would have to take a little rabbit trail. Because it also talks about how its not of works lest any man should boast. But that doesn't mean the works aren't necessary. 

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

10 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If god is in control, and if god has a plan for everybody, then that must be exactly what happened; otherwise it would not have happened.  I feel confident enough to speak for the others when I say that none of us would have chosen to lose our faith if we had genuine free will.

It's possible to maintain faith in the evidence of disbelief....js.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If god is in control, and if god has a plan for everybody, then that must be exactly what happened; otherwise it would not have happened.  I feel confident enough to speak for the others when I say that none of us would have chosen to lose our faith if we had genuine free will.

I agree,

 

I loved God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. I felt complete in my faith. The loss of my faith has caused a chain reaction that hasn't been exactly healthy for me. I'm divorced and in an unequally yoked relationship with my ex wife.  Trying to be supportive of one bisexual son, a lesbian daughter, and a straight nonbeliever son. All while trying to also be supportive of my ex wife's beliefs. Its hard............ and I often don't succeed in supporting her. 

 

If bible God is real. I would have to say that he hardened my heart against him and made me lose my salvation. Maybe my eternal torment in hell will be a lesson for those people living it up in heaven. Maybe he will put it on the big screen in heaven so you guys can laugh at all of us writhing in agony. 

 

(Sorry, I'm not in the best head space right now.) 

 

But I have to say I do not believe that the biblical God is real. I am convinced that the whole Bible, along with its beliefs and doctrines are all man made. God is a reflection of man. Not the other way around. And if you look at my conversation with @mwc we have made some good points about how the older polytheistic beliefs influenced isrealite beliefs. 

 

Even tho it has cost me dearly. I would rather live my life knowing the truth than live a lie and have faith in a fairy tale. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

7 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

It's possible to maintain faith in the evidence of disbelief....js.

Well thats the whole concept of faith.

 

Believing in something that has no real tangible proof that would give you a good reason to believe in something. 

 

In every other arena of life other than religion it would either be called stupidity or insanity........ JS

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

26 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Well thats the whole concept of faith.

 

Believing in something that has no real tangible proof that would give you a good reason to believe in something. 

 

In every other arena of life other than religion it would either be called stupidity or insanity........ JS

 

DB

I'm saying Eve "ate".  We have the choice to sit in faith and not "eat".  Granted we fail, but we do have that choice.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

It's possible to maintain faith in the evidence of disbelief....js.

Please support this assertion. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Ed..... You really need to get your thought straight. You said:

 

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

It's possible to maintain faith in the evidence of disbelief....js.

 

Which I replied with

 

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

Well thats the whole concept of faith.

 

Believing in something that has no real tangible proof that would give you a good reason to believe in something. 

 

In every other arena of life other than religion it would either be called stupidity or insanity........ JS

 

Neither of these has anything to do with

 

32 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm saying Eve "ate".  We have the choice to sit in faith and not "eat".  Granted we fail, but we do have that choice.  

 

WTF ED?

 

@TheRedneckProfessor

@walterpthefirst

 

Do Ed's thoughts seems somewhat disconnected today to yall?

 

DB