Faith, Logic, and Freedom

[TheRedneckProfessor]

29 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Do Ed's thoughts seems somewhat disconnected today to yall?

No more than usual, honestly.  I had the spiritual gift of interpretation, which is the only reason I can make sense of his posts sometimes.

 

In the exchange you quoted above, he did not actually address your point.  He just served you a word salad with a side order of assertion.  You, of course, can choose to sit in faith and not eat it.  

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No more than usual, honestly.  I had the spiritual gift of interpretation, which is the only reason I can make sense of his posts sometimes.

 

In the exchange you quoted above, he did not actually address your point.  He just served you a word salad with a side order of assertion.  You, of course, can choose to sit in faith and not eat it.  

LOL, bingo.  No, he's right.  I think I will have the immediate thought and the will develop 2 more steps in the conversation and then write that down.  Not his fault.  I have a mountain of work in front of me and sneak in to look at the conversation.  And then not give it justice.  

[Edgarcito]

37 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Ed..... You really need to get your thought straight. You said:

 

 

Which I replied with

 

 

Neither of these has anything to do with

 

 

WTF ED?

 

@TheRedneckProfessor

@walterpthefirst

 

Do Ed's thoughts seems somewhat disconnected today to yall?

 

DB

To try and answer you both....Eve acted on her belief.  Ex Christian's act on their belief that some evidence allows them to conclude.  While religious faith, we still sit in all the evidence yet don't conclude... and partake in communion perhaps as an alternative.   

 

Working on an example for you Prof.

 

[walterpthefirst]

4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

So you are telling me that you and DB and the Prof and many here, that God has acted on your circumstance or in your body to change your mind about belief in Christ and there is nothing you can do about it, you have no choice in the matter.  Is that what you're saying?

 

Scripture tells us that...

 

A )  God never changes his mind

 

and...

 

B )  No decision we can make can change his mind

 

therefore...

 

Nobody and no one has any choice about anything.  God has ordained and predestined everything.  We do not have free will, we only believe that we do.  But, because everything has been decided in advance by god free will is an illusion.

 

So, god didn't have to act on our circumstances in real time, while we live, to change anything in our minds.  He had already set down what we would do and what we would think and how we would think it before he created the universe.  That's what it means to be timeless, eternal and all-knowing.

 

Such a god doesn't work from moment to moment, changing things as time elapses.  Being timeless he already knows and has already ordained what will happen.  We are just pawns in his cosmic game.

 

That is the logical conclusion of what Paul says about Esau in the book of Romans.  If god hated Esau, he didn't do so the moment Esau sinned.  Because god never changes he always hated Esau.  And therefore, free will doesn't exist.

 

You really need to stop thinking that god doesn't know everything, Edgarcito.  That he doesn't know the entirety of time - past, present and future.  That all three are exactly the same to him.  Like a book laid out for him to read.  He knows the contents of the book from start to finish, every word, every sentence, every page, everything.  Nothing is hidden from his gaze.  No choice or decision we can make surprises him because he knows them already.

 

And therefore we have no choice or freedom to write anything new in the book by ourselves.  We are trapped in the pages.  We can change nothing.

 

 

Psalm 139.

 

4 Before a word is on my tongue, you, Lord, know it completely.

 

16 

Your eyes saw my unformed body;  all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

 

Do you see it now?

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm saying Eve "ate".  We have the choice to sit in faith and not "eat".  Granted we fail, but we do have that choice.  

 

No, we don't.

 

If god hated Esau, he did so, does so and will do so forever.  Because god does not change his mind.  So, Esau did not choose to sin, he was ordained to do so by god before the beginning of time.  

 

If god never changes his mind, then NOTHING that we can do can change it.  Don't you see that?

 

God's mind can't be changed by our choices.  Therefore, we cannot choose.  We only think we can.

 

Which makes his creation a vanity project where millions believe that they freely choose, when, in fact, he has done the choosing for us, since before the Big Bang.

 

Tell me Edgarcito, do you really think that god operates in real time, just as we do, not knowing what the future holds?

 

Really?

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

28 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Ex Christian's act on their belief that some evidence allows them to conclude. 

ten·ta·tive·ly

/ˈten(t)ədivlē/

adverb

 

subject to further confirmation; not definitely.

 

"the project is tentatively scheduled for next year"

 

I believe I may have mentioned this a time or six concerning our conclusions.  Not sure if you didn't catch it all those times I said it or if you're just dumb.  Anyway, yeah, we approach our conclusions tentatively and are always open to new evidence or arguments that might alter said conclusions. 

 

[Edgarcito]

20 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

ten·ta·tive·ly

/ˈten(t)ədivlē/

adverb

 

subject to further confirmation; not definitely.

 

"the project is tentatively scheduled for next year"

 

I believe I may have mentioned this a time or six concerning our conclusions.  Not sure if you didn't catch it all those times I said it or if you're just dumb.  Anyway, yeah, we approach our conclusions tentatively and are always open to new evidence or arguments that might alter said conclusions. 

 

You renounced Christianity, or am I wrong.  Or are you still a believer.

 

So you are just tentatively holding on to Christianity, that you can just come and go as evidence to suit you makes itself known?  Hebrews 6 comes to mind.

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

25 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Scripture tells us that...

 

A )  God never changes his mind

 

and...

 

B )  No decision we can make can change his mind

 

therefore...

 

Nobody and no one has any choice about anything.  God has ordained and predestined everything.  We do not have free will, we only believe that we do.  But, because everything has been decided in advance by god free will is an illusion.

 

So, god didn't have to act on our circumstances in real time, while we live, to change anything in our minds.  He had already set down what we would do and what we would think and how we would think it before he created the universe.  That's what it means to be timeless, eternal and all-knowing.

 

Such a god doesn't work from moment to moment, changing things as time elapses.  Being timeless he already knows and has already ordained what will happen.  We are just pawns in his cosmic game.

 

That is the logical conclusion of what Paul says about Esau in the book of Romans.  If god hated Esau, he didn't do so the moment Esau sinned.  Because god never changes he always hated Esau.  And therefore, free will doesn't exist.

 

You really need to stop thinking that god doesn't know everything, Edgarcito.  That he doesn't know the entirety of time - past, present and future.  That all three are exactly the same to him.  Like a book laid out for him to read.  He knows the contents of the book from start to finish, every word, every sentence, every page, everything.  Nothing is hidden from his gaze.  No choice or decision we can make surprises him because he knows them already.

 

And therefore we have no choice or freedom to write anything new in the book by ourselves.  We are trapped in the pages.  We can change nothing.

 

 

Psalm 139.

 

4 Before a word is on my tongue, you, Lord, know it completely.

 

16 

Your eyes saw my unformed body;  all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

 

Do you see it now?

The punishment of hell was already an unfair punishment. This just makes the matter worse. 

 

@Edgarcito

Just continuing with Walter's thought here. It could very well be that, we wanted to make the right decision and chose God. But that wasn't what God wanted. We were all predestined for hell. So he hardened our hearts and made us leave him. 

 

So maybe Eve wanted to do the right thing. But God hardened her heart forcing Eve to eat of the fruit. Just so death and sin would pass upon all man and he could fuck around in everyone's lives and do stuff like send Rosa in a predators path and let her be tortured, raped, and murdered. 

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

Here you are, Edgarcito.

 

To give you an idea of how the bible contradicts itself, try reconciling these two passages.

 

Numbers 23 : 19   

“God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfil?”

 

After the Israelites made the golden calf and then worshipped it Moses went up Mount Sinai to try and plead with god for their forgiveness.  

 

Exodus 32 : 30 - 34.

 

30 The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”

31 So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 

32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

33 The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 

34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

 

See that?

God is not a man that he should change his mind.  GOD DOESN'T CHANGE HIS MIND.  Yet, because of the Israelites sin HE WILL CHANGE HIS MIND and blot them out of his book - which is the Book of Life.  Both cannot be true.  God can't change his mind and also not change his mind.

 

But let's say that one of these is true and the other false. 

 

If god's mind is changed by the choices we make, then he is not all-knowing, because an all-knowing god would know in advance any decisions we could make.  That would mean that god does not know the future and anywhere in scripture where it says that he does or that he has ordained certain things to happen is lies. 

 

If god's mind cannot be changed by the choices we make, then we have no free will to make any choices.  God will have set everything in stone before the created the universe, we are just his puppets and he is the puppet master.  And anywhere in scripture that says that we are free to choose is lies.

 

That's the only three options, Edgarcito.

 

1.  The bible contradicts itself and so can't be trusted.

2.  God is not all-knowing and because the bible says he is, it can't be trusted.

3.  God is all-knowing and we can choose nothing.  Because the bible says we can choose, it can't be trusted.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

The punishment of hell was already an unfair punishment. This just makes the matter worse. 

 

@Edgarcito

Just continuing with Walter's thought here. It could very well be that, we wanted to make the right decision and chose God. But that wasn't what God wanted. We were all predestined for hell. So he hardened our hearts and made us leave him. 

 

So maybe Eve wanted to do the right thing. But God hardened her heart forcing Eve to eat of the fruit. Just so death and sin would pass upon all man and he could fuck around in everyone's lives and do stuff like send Rosa in a predators path and let her be tortured, raped, and murdered. 

 

DB

Walter just said, "we only think we can".  So he's saying our perception is that of free will.  I'm agreeing in that I can sit in faith even though God may send me somewhere else.  Still a faith thing imo. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

6 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Here you are, Edgarcito.

 

To give you an idea of how the bible contradicts itself, try reconciling these two passages.

 

Numbers 23 : 19   

“God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfil?”

 

After the Israelites made the golden calf and then worshipped it Moses went up Mount Sinai to try and plead with god for their forgiveness.  

 

Exodus 32 : 30 - 34.

 

30 The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”

31 So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 

32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

33 The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 

34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

 

See that?

God is not a man that he should change his mind.  GOD DOESN'T CHANGE HIS MIND.  Yet, because of the Israelites sin HE WILL CHANGE HIS MIND and blot them out of his book - which is the Book of Life.  Both cannot be true.  God can't change his mind and also not change his mind.

 

But let's say that one of these is true and the other false. 

 

If god's mind is changed by the choices we make, then he is not all-knowing, because an all-knowing god would know in advance any decisions we could make.  That would mean that god does not know the future and anywhere in scripture where it says that he does or that he has ordained certain things to happen is lies. 

 

If god's mind cannot be changed by the choices we make, then we have no free will to make any choices.  God will have set everything in stone before the created the universe, we are just his puppets and he is the puppet master.  And anywhere in scripture that says that we are free to choose is lies.

 

That's the only three options, Edgarcito.

 

1.  The bible contradicts itself and so can't be trusted.

2.  God is not all-knowing and because the bible says he is, it can't be trusted.

3.  God is all-knowing and we can choose nothing.  Because the bible says we can choose, it can't be trusted.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

I wanted to give more than a like on this one so here is a standing ovation .  

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Walter just said, "we only think we can".  So he's saying our perception is that of free will.  I'm agreeing in that I can sit in faith even though God may send me somewhere else.  Still a faith thing imo. 

 

So you're happy to live out such a delusion?

 

To live in the illusion of free will?

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Walter just said, "we only think we can".  So he's saying our perception is that of free will.  I'm agreeing in that I can sit in faith even though God may send me somewhere else.  Still a faith thing imo. 

 

Having cited me Edgarcito, why don't you also answer the question that I put to you in the post you pulled this from?

 

 

Do you really think that god operates in real time, just as we do, not knowing what the future holds?

 

 

Please answer.

[walterpthefirst]

So you are telling me that you and DB and the Prof and many here, that God has acted on your circumstance or in your body to change your mind about belief in Christ and there is nothing you can do about it, you have no choice in the matter.  Is that what you're saying?

 

Now that I've replied Edgarcito, do you have anything to say in response? 

 

Do you disagree?  If so, where? 

 

And can you justify your disagreement?  If so, how?

[Edgarcito]

9 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

So you are telling me that you and DB and the Prof and many here, that God has acted on your circumstance or in your body to change your mind about belief in Christ and there is nothing you can do about it, you have no choice in the matter.  Is that what you're saying?

 

Now that I've replied Edgarcito, do you have anything to say in response? 

 

Do you disagree?  If so, where? 

 

And can you justify your disagreement?  If so, how?

Let me just restate your position so we are not confused.  You believe, per the story, that God is ultimately in charge and despite our perception, that of free will, we are predestined to whatever he creates/created.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

36 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You renounced Christianity, or am I wrong.  Or are you still a believer.

 

So you are just tentatively holding on to Christianity, that you can just come and go as evidence to suit you makes itself known?  Hebrews 6 comes to mind.

 

You have concluded that a god exists, that it is the god of the bible thst exists, and nothing--no amount of evidence, logic, reasoning, or Rosa Maria stories--is ever going to change your mind.  You will further do, say, think, and justify, by whatever means necessary, the conclusion you have drawn, even to the point of compromising your own moral and ethical standards.  This is what a permanent, fixed conclusion looks like.

 

The question of god's existence is still open for me.  I do not know if a god exists or not; but I am inclined not to believe one does, based on the evidence (or lack thereof) to support the existence of a god.  However, I am open to new evidence or arguments in favor of god's existence; and, should sufficient evidence, or a sufficiently logical argument, be presented, I am happy and willing to adjust my current stance.  This is what a tentative conclusion looks like.

 

As with the question of god's existence, so it is with the conclusions I have drawn concerning the christian religion.  There is sufficient evidence against the christian religion to justify my current rejection of it.  But should further evidence come to light, my conclusion will be adjusted accordingly.  This would be another example of a tentative conclusion. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Let me just restate your position so we are not confused.  You believe, per the story, that God is ultimately in charge and despite our perception, that of free will, we are predestined to whatever he creates/created.

I don't think any of us actually believe that.  But, taking the bible at face value, that is what it says, Ed.  You should read it sometime.

[Edgarcito]

Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I don't think any of us actually believe that.  But, taking the bible at face value, that is what it says, Ed.  You should read it sometime.

That's why I said "per the story"...try and stay up...

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Let me just restate your position so we are not confused.  You believe, per the story, that God is ultimately in charge and despite our perception, that of free will, we are predestined to whatever he creates/created.

 

No.

 

I have no religious or supernatural beliefs, remember?

 

Instead, I have used logic to understand what certain passages of scripture mean.

 

If god does not change his mind, because he is timeless and eternal, he has predestined us to do what he has ordained.

 

And so we have no free will - we are just acting out what he has predetermined we will do. 

 

That is the logical conclusion.

 

But, in another post I have also shown you that scripture contradicts itself.

 

Go figure!

 

 

[Edgarcito]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

That's why I said "per the story"...try and stay up...

 

4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You have concluded that a god exists, that it is the god of the bible thst exists, and nothing--no amount of evidence, logic, reasoning, or Rosa Maria stories--is ever going to change your mind.  You will further do, say, think, and justify, by whatever means necessary, the conclusion you have drawn, even to the point of compromising your own moral and ethical standards.  This is what a permanent, fixed conclusion looks like.

 

The question of god's existence is still open for me.  I do not know if a god exists or not; but I am inclined not to believe one does, based on the evidence (or lack thereof) to support the existence of a god.  However, I am open to new evidence or arguments in favor of god's existence; and, should sufficient evidence, or a sufficiently logical argument, be presented, I am happy and willing to adjust my current stance.  This is what a tentative conclusion looks like.

 

As with the question of god's existence, so it is with the conclusions I have drawn concerning the christian religion.  There is sufficient evidence against the christian religion to justify my current rejection of it.  But should further evidence come to light, my conclusion will be adjusted accordingly.  This would be another example of a tentative conclusion. 

Can we think of any other examples of subjection that are just that?  That their subjection doesn't give them the full capacity of our subjection?  Certainly we can.  And this isn't evidence for a god given our limits?  Really?  

[walterpthefirst]

Now, having satisfied your request, please satisfy mine Edgarcito.

 

 

Do you really think that god operates in real time, just as we do, not knowing what the future holds?

 

 

Please answer.

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

No.

 

I have no religious or supernatural beliefs, remember?

 

Instead, I have used logic to understand what certain passages of scripture mean.

 

If god does not change his mind, because he is timeless and eternal, he has predestined us to do what he has ordained.

 

And so we have no free will - we are just acting out what he has predetermined we will do. 

 

That is the logical conclusion.

 

But, in another post I have also shown you that scripture contradicts itself.

 

Go figure!

 

 

fuck, I didn't say you did..."per the story".  You just said our perception was one of free will.  So stop picking one for the conversation please.  I actually agree with what you had presented and now you are backing up.  Go figure!

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Now, having satisfied your request, please satisfy mine Edgarcito.

 

 

Do you really think that god operates in real time, just as we do, not knowing what the future holds?

 

 

Please answer.

Edit:  I just read the first part.  Yes I think he acts in real time but also knows how it all fits together in the end.  One big calculation we can't do.

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Certainly

 

So, when the bible says that god knows all things, that's a lie?

 

Because he doesn't know the future?

 

Yes?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

6 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

 

Can we think of any other examples of subjection that are just that?  That their subjection doesn't give them the full capacity of our subjection?  Certainly we can.  And this isn't evidence for a god given our limits?  Really?  

I don't see how this relates to RNP's post. Could you please reword this? He's not talking about subjection at all.