Faith, Logic, and Freedom

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

fuck, I didn't say you did..."per the story".  You just said our perception was one of free will.  So stop picking one for the conversation please.  I actually agree with what you had presented and now you are backing up.  Go figure!

 

No, I said that our perception is one of free will IF god does not change his mind.

 

It's conditional on taking a certain passage of scripture at face value.

 

So I'm not backing up.

 

You didn't understand or you didn't notice the conditional nature of what I wrote.

[walterpthefirst]

5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Edit:  I just read the first part.  Yes I think he acts in real time but also knows how it all fits together in the end.  One big calculation we can't do.

 

Ah, so this would be just the same as god being omnipresent but not being present in hell?

 

He's there but he's not there.

 

Gotcha!

[walterpthefirst]

9 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Edit:  I just read the first part.  Yes I think he acts in real time but also knows how it all fits together in the end.  One big calculation we can't do.

 

Well, why don't you try and do this calculation, Edgarcito?

 

God hated Esau and since god is eternal, he has always hated Esau and always will.

 

But, if god acts in real time as you say, then he had no cause to hate Esau until the moment Esau sinned.

 

So, why did god hate Esau before he sinned?

 

Care to explain?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

25 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Well, why don't you try and do this calculation, Edgarcito?

 

God hated Esau and since god is eternal, he has always hated Esau and always will.

 

But, if god acts in real time as you say, then he had no cause to hate Esau until the moment Esau sinned.

 

So, why did god hate Esau before he sinned?

 

Care to explain?

Uh oh walter. I feel that we might have to wait until we die for this answer..........  

[Edgarcito]

36 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Well, why don't you try and do this calculation, Edgarcito?

 

God hated Esau and since god is eternal, he has always hated Esau and always will.

 

But, if god acts in real time as you say, then he had no cause to hate Esau until the moment Esau sinned.

 

So, why did god hate Esau before he sinned?

 

Care to explain?

You don't know that.  Please explain how you know the reason for the hate.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

You don't know that.  Please explain how you know the reason for the hate.

He already showed you the scripture. Damn ed keep up. God doesn't need a reason. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

57 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

 

Can we think of any other examples of subjection that are just that?  That their subjection doesn't give them the full capacity of our subjection?  Certainly we can.  And this isn't evidence for a god given our limits?  Really?  

No, Ed, because we don't know is not evidence for a god, or anything else that cannot be demonstrated in practical terms.  Because we are limited is not evidence for a god, or anything else that cannot be demonstrated in practical terms.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Let me just restate your position so we are not confused.  You believe, per the story, that God is ultimately in charge and despite our perception, that of free will, we are predestined to whatever he creates/created.

 

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I don't think any of us actually believe that.  But, taking the bible at face value, that is what it says, Ed.  You should read it sometime.

 

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

That's why I said "per the story"...try and stay up...

Yes, and "the story," taken at face value, says exactly that.  Maybe make sure you're not the one who's behind before insinuating that someone else should try to keep up.

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No, Ed, because we don't know is not evidence for a god, or anything else that cannot be demonstrated in practical terms.  Because we are limited is not evidence for a god, or anything else that cannot be demonstrated in practical terms.  

The pattern exists.  Do with it what you want.

[Edgarcito]

11 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

He already showed you the scripture. Damn ed keep up. God doesn't need a reason. 

You're the expert....why did God not like Esau.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

The pattern exists.  Do with it what you want.

Can you show us this pattern?  Take measurements of it?  Give us a physical location?  Or is the existence of the pattern based on the same unfounded assertions as the existence of your god?

[Edgarcito]

Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Can you show us this pattern?  Take measurements of it?  Give us a physical location?  Or is the existence of the pattern based on the same unfounded assertions as the existence of your god?

Yeah, I think I can.  Just saying my dog and I are subjected differently, and I have a much greater cognitive capability.   That's the pattern I see.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

You're the expert....why did God not like Esau.

Well off the top of my head I don't really know a valid reason that God should have hated Esau. Not in a natural sense that you or I would understand. But as it goes. It is believed that it was the decendants of Esau that are the Muslims. 

 

Or atleast that is what I was taught. I never tried to trace back middle eastern islamic religions back to Esau. So maybe I'm not the expert you needed on this one. 

 

Here's is a link that might help. 

 

https://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=230

 

Esau married a daughter of Ishmael.  Who is considered the father of Islam. 

 

So maybe God hated Esau because he was to be the  "thorn in the side" of the Jews so to say. 

 

Even today. The war still rages between isreal (Jacob) and Esau. But this is probably just because of the Bible. This is actually one of the very few biblical prophecies that might actually have some truth behind it. Probably just because the two just fight over the same piece of land. If either one of them would stop fighting over that. It'd be over. 

 

But if God had loved Esau and not Jacob where would we be? I guess you could use God's foreknowledge to argue this one. So go ahead. let's see how that pans out. 

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

I appreciate the effort DB.   

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I appreciate the effort DB.   

Thanks. I've been drinking for about 2 hours so..... I do my best lol.  

 

Sorry you guys gotta deal with me in sober times and not. Its my day off so.... yeah. Anyway. I probably won't respond to much for the rest of the night unless I feel I can coherently answer. Fair enough? 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

26 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Yeah, I think I can.  Just saying my dog and I are subjected differently, and I have a much greater cognitive capability.   That's the pattern I see.

So, you're suggesting that the existence of the Loch Ness monster, leprechauns, Yeti, and Russell's Tea Pot, are all equally possible based on you being smarter than your dog?  If that is what you consider evidence, then it's no wonder you come to such erroneous conclusions and can barely form a coherent argument to defend them.  Were I your dog, I'd bite you for negatively comparing me against such a poor specimen as yourself.  As it stands, my conclusions remain unchanged. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

So, you're suggesting that the existence of the Loch Ness monster, leprechauns, Yeti, and Russell's Tea Pot, are all equally possible based on you being smarter than your dog?  If that is what you consider evidence, then it's no wonder you come to such erroneous conclusions and can barely form a coherent argument to defend them.  Were I your dog, I'd bite you for negatively comparing me against such a poor specimen as yourself.  As it stands, my conclusions remain unchanged. 

Goddamn RNP that's some funny shit right their. Maybe you should try stand up !!!!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Goddamn RNP that's some funny shit right their. Maybe you should try stand up !!!!

Likely that's just the whiskey talking; but I don't disagree with what it's saying.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Likely that's just the whiskey talking; but I don't disagree with what it's saying.

Fair enough! 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 10/31/2022 at 5:31 PM, Edgarcito said:

I like to think I’m smart enough to marry free will and predestination.. it just hasn’t come to me yet lol.  Going to defer to my friend Pantheory for a lifeline

@pantheory just thought I'd tag you on this one. Saw you were online. 

[walterpthefirst]

8 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

You don't know that.  Please explain how you know the reason for the hate.

 

Yes I do.  Scripture says so.

 

Malachi 3 : 6    “I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

 

Romans 9 : 13    Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

 

Put those two together and god has always hated Esau.

 

 

And before I explain anything further to you, you are going to explain something to me - because I asked first.

 

 

So, why did god hate Esau before he sinned?

 

Care to explain?

 

[pantheory]

12 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

@pantheory just thought I'd tag you on this one. Saw you were online. 

Thank you ma man. I feel honored by your tag and your conversations sir. Have a good one.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, pantheory said:

Thank you ma man. I feel honored by your tag and your conversations sir. Have a good one.

Several pages back @Edgarcitowanted to send out a life line to you to see if you could marry predestination with Freewill. I think most of us on this thread don't thinknits possible. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

13 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

So, you're suggesting that the existence of the Loch Ness monster, leprechauns, Yeti, and Russell's Tea Pot, are all equally possible based on you being smarter than your dog?  If that is what you consider evidence, then it's no wonder you come to such erroneous conclusions and can barely form a coherent argument to defend them.  Were I your dog, I'd bite you for negatively comparing me against such a poor specimen as yourself.  As it stands, my conclusions remain unchanged. 

 Nope.... its still funny. Even sober  

[pantheory]

18 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Several pages back @Edgarcitowanted to send out a life line to you to see if you could marry predestination with Freewill. I think most of us on this thread don't thinknits possible. 

 

DB

 

Yeah, I don't see how it's possible either, God or no God.