Faith, Logic, and Freedom

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm a heretic Walter....DB and everyone here knows this for the last umpteen years.  God knows my intent.  I'm not worried about it.  Quit bolding and jacking with the font size....apparently it causes trouble for Dave...or costs more money.  I get the damn picture without your exaggerated mess.  Thanks.

 

You're more than welcome to speculate on God's intent for humanity.

 

I'm not the one doing the speculation here.

 

I'm sticking exactly to what scripture says.

 

 

But thanks for pointing out that you can only continue in your beliefs by ignoring what the bible actually says.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Edgarcito,

 

Now that we have established that you're happy to play fast-and-loose with scripture, let's move on to my two main questions.

 

 

A )  Who is responsible for the 'situation' that Adam and Eve found themselves in?

 

and...

 

B )  Who is responsible for the acts of moral evil (#1 and #5) that resulted from morally good acts NOT being carried out.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

it makes even more sense to me now per my speculative efforts.  ... It makes me even moreso aware ... rather than confined by our limited knowledge

So, you find speculation more reliable than actual knowledge, simply because knowledge is limited.  And you're willing to base your life, perspective, and worldview on speculation as a result.

 

This will not end well for you, I'm afraid.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

45 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

These are all good sermon points DB

Lol. I never had to analyze the narrative this much. Most people just accepted that eve was in the wrong and it was all hers and Adam's fault that sin came in to the world. 

 

Thats one of the reasons this little discussion is so Interesting. It is bringing up all the issues that you don't think about when your a believer. 

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

5 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Lol. I never had to analyze the narrative this much. Most people just accepted that eve was in the wrong and it was all hers and Adam's fault that sin came in to the world. 

 

Thats one of the reasons this little discussion is so Interesting. It is bringing up all the issues that you don't think about when your a believer. 

 

DB

The plates would be full sir....lol.

[Edgarcito]

8 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

So, you find speculation more reliable than actual knowledge, simply because knowledge is limited.  And you're willing to base your life, perspective, and worldview on speculation as a result.

 

This will not end well for you, I'm afraid.

Let's do the game now J.  Put your money where your mouth is.

[Edgarcito]

12 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Edgarcito,

 

Now that we have established that you're happy to play fast-and-loose with scripture, let's move on to my two main questions.

 

 

A )  Who is responsible for the 'situation' that Adam and Eve found themselves in?

 

and...

 

B )  Who is responsible for the acts of moral evil (#1 and #5) that resulted from morally good acts NOT being carried out.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

I'm letting you know Walter so you will quit incessantly requesting, that I am not going answering anymore of your questions for now.  I'm tired of you not considering my responses and your general level of OBTUSE.

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

I'm letting you know Walter so you will quit incessantly requesting, that I am not going answering anymore of your questions for now.  I'm tired of you not considering my responses and your general level of OBTUSE.

 

That's ok Ed, they'll keep until you are ready.

 

Btw, my demolishing your responses results from me carefully considering them.

 

And your ad hominem is noted.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

42 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Next step, hell

Not really. Hell was more of a Christian creation. Hell in the old testament usually meant the grave. Death in general. 

 

My church believed that even now when people die they don't go straight to heaven. They believe we lay in the grave until the second coming when we are all raised for the judgment. 

 

After this the wicked dead are thrown into the lake of fire. And the God's people Inherit the kingdom prepared for them. 

 

It really works out the same either way. You die and the next thing you know your either going to heaven or hell. I really don't know why that teaching had such emphasis placed on it in the church. They would get on a kick sometimes and every sermon was about how we don't go straight to heaven when we die. 

 

It must of been part of the falling out they had with the Union Assembly. 

[Edgarcito]

5 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

That's ok Ed, they'll keep until you are ready.

 

Btw, my demolishing your responses results from me carefully considering them.

 

And your ad hominem is noted.

Walter, you're wrong.  You are so stuck in your position that it pains and upsets you when someone doesn't affirm your thoughts....and then forces you into the thing that you do with repeated questioning and acting like a child.  Consider that in your spare time please.  That Walter is not the Walter I like.....don't be that Walter.  Be the Walter that talks across to people.  He's much more pleasant.  Thx.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

15 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Let's do the game now J.  Put your money where your mouth is.

Once you have satisfactorily addressed Walt's question, the question I asked about your children, and the question I asked as to why faith is an appropriate alternative to logic, then I'll be happy to play your little game.  We have to do things in order; otherwise we end up in a world without string.

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Once you have satisfactorily addressed Walt's question, the question I asked about your children, and the question I asked as to why faith is an appropriate alternative to logic, then I'll be happy to play your little game.  We have to do things in order; otherwise we end up in a world without string.

 

Edgarcito has made it abundantly clear that he refuses to answer any further questions from me, Prof.

 

So, over to you.

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Once you have satisfactorily addressed Walt's question, the question I asked about your children, and the question I asked as to why faith is an appropriate alternative to logic, then I'll be happy to play your little game.  We have to do things in order; otherwise we end up in a world without string.

Walter must be a large sponsor.  I've answered why faith is more appropriate when dealing with humanity and would demonstrate this so you might even more understand.  I told Walter I'd get back to him when I was ready....thx

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I told Walter I'd get back to him when I was ready....thx

Then that's when we'll play your little game.

[Edgarcito]

7 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Then that's when we'll play your little game.

This is why I wouldn't go to war with you.... and you dare label yourself a redneck.  Man o man.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

41 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

It doesn't matter.  She was living the experience.  Just as I speculated on number 16.  If God's intent was to create good people, he created blank slate people and then subjected them to the experience to become good.  God and the snake and the trees were all in their presence. 

 

 

 

 

 

But again. According to scripture he had the foreknowledge to know what would happen. And let it happen anyway. 

 

So basically your likening the Adam and Eve story to Job. I think you mentioned that earlier. He let the devil take everything away from Job just to see if he would stay faithful. 

 

But walt pointed out the issue with that. They did not know Good from Evil yet. They would not have had a conscience. Job however did know good from evil. So when faced with the temptation to deny God he knew that wasn't the answer. So he remained faithful even tho his asshat of a Holy father allowed his land to be destroyed and his children killed. 

 

 

In the Adam and Eve story he lets Satan tempt her just to see if she will remain obedient. And thats ok? 

 

So its all their fault?

 

He put two blank slate people into a situation, having no real idea what was going on. Having no idea what was the right or wrong thing to do. And then they were banished and cursed for doing something they didn't have the capability of resisting. 

 

In Christianity the Holy Ghost is supposed to lead us and guide us in the path of righteousness. In the old testament after Adam and Eve everyone knew right from wrong. So they could discern what was the right thing to do. But Adam and Eve had none of that. 

 

Your God is an asshole Ed. The old testament God was an asshole. 

 

He allowed the rape of virgins as long as they weren't betrothed to another man. 

 

He commanded that children should be killed in the conquest of canaan

 

He plays games with people. Like Job and Adam and Eve.

 

Played games with Abraham. Was going to let him kill his own son and at the last moment..... "nah nah wait . I'm just messing with ya. I just wanted to see if you would actually do it. 

 

Made the isrealites wonder in the desert for 40 years. 

 

Let them get enslaved in the first place

 

He proudly proclaims that he is a jealous and vengeful God in the old testament. 

 

I'm sure we could keep adding to this list. But the old testament God isn't the God described in the new testament. The God of the old testament wouldnt have any issue doing what he did in Eden just to prove a point. 

 

Its when we include the new testament scripture that it doesn't fit. 

 

What do you think walter? Is the new testament the problem here? 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

28 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

This is why I wouldn't go to war with you.... and you dare label yourself a redneck.  Man o man.

Technically, it was Walt you challenged to your little game, with DB and myself just there to round out the roster.  I'm sorry if your little game can't be played until you have satisfactorily addressed Walt's inquiry; but that's how life works out sometimes.  Best you learn to accept it and move on.

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Technically, it was Walt you challenged to your little game, with DB and myself just there to round out the roster.  I'm sorry if your little game can't be played until you have satisfactorily addressed Walt's inquiry; but that's how life works out sometimes.  Best you learn to accept it and move on.

You weren't going to win anyhow....

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You weren't going to win anyhow....

That's how sour grapes taste, I suppose.

[Edgarcito]

Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said:

That's how sour grapes taste, I suppose.

Least I'm not pandering...

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Least I'm not pandering...

Good for you.  You must be very proud.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

I'd like to see what he has up his sleeve with the game. 

 

[walterpthefirst]

56 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

. 

 

What do you think walter? Is the new testament the problem here? 

 

DB,

 

The NT is a serious problem for the god described in Eden.  By the time the NT was written such attributes as all-knowledge and all-goodness had been ascribed to him.  And, by looking exactly at what the Eden narrative actually says we can see that Adam and Eve's god CANNOT be all-good.

 

How can an all-knowing god not know what the serpent/Satan was about to do?

 

How can an all-good god stand by and let harm come to his children?

 

How can an all-knowing and all-good god allow death and disease into the 'very good' world that he made?

 

If we swap Yahweh for Jesus, would the Jesus who healed a young girl of a fever stand by in Eden as Yahweh did?

 

It just makes no sense, DB.  And this lack of sense is why Christians don't actually read what scripture actually says.  They read into it what they want it to say.  They know full well that their beliefs don't add up.  But they can't be honest to the text and they won't be honest to themselves or to others.

 

They prefer to live the comforting lie rather than face up to the difficult truth.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

45 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You weren't going to win anyhow....

 

How can truth win when lies are preferred?

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

 

But again. According to scripture he had the foreknowledge to know what would happen. And let it happen anyway. 

 

So basically your likening the Adam and Eve story to Job. I think you mentioned that earlier. He let the devil take everything away from Job just to see if he would stay faithful. 

 

But walt pointed out the issue with that. They did not know Good from Evil yet. They would not have had a conscience. Job however did know good from evil. So when faced with the temptation to deny God he knew that wasn't the answer. So he remained faithful even tho his asshat of a Holy father allowed his land to be destroyed and his children killed. 

 

 

In the Adam and Eve story he lets Satan tempt her just to see if she will remain obedient. And thats ok? 

 

So its all their fault?

 

He put two blank slate people into a situation, having no real idea what was going on. Having no idea what was the right or wrong thing to do. And then they were banished and cursed for doing something they didn't have the capability of resisting. 

 

In Christianity the Holy Ghost is supposed to lead us and guide us in the path of righteousness. In the old testament after Adam and Eve everyone knew right from wrong. So they could discern what was the right thing to do. But Adam and Eve had none of that. 

 

Your God is an asshole Ed. The old testament God was an asshole. 

 

He allowed the rape of virgins as long as they weren't betrothed to another man. 

 

He commanded that children should be killed in the conquest of canaan

 

He plays games with people. Like Job and Adam and Eve.

 

Played games with Abraham. Was going to let him kill his own son and at the last moment..... "nah nah wait . I'm just messing with ya. I just wanted to see if you would actually do it. 

 

Made the isrealites wonder in the desert for 40 years. 

 

Let them get enslaved in the first place

 

He proudly proclaims that he is a jealous and vengeful God in the old testament. 

 

I'm sure we could keep adding to this list. But the old testament God isn't the God described in the new testament. The God of the old testament wouldnt have any issue doing what he did in Eden just to prove a point. 

 

Its when we include the new testament scripture that it doesn't fit. 

 

What do you think walter? Is the new testament the problem here? 

Sometimes we don't know good until it's taken away and through experience.  I had so many people come up to my family and tell me how fortunate I was to have such a beautiful family and circumstance.  I used to just say yes I knew, but I really didn't know until divorce and everyone going their different directions and the absence of "good".  I expect God allows that evolution for ourselves so that we truly understand and act accordingly.