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Generational Sin


DarkBishop
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14 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Ok seriously tho. You didn't explain what this scripture means to you pertaining to this subject. You can't just post a scripture and then expect me to read your mind because for me this scripture does support my thoughts more than yours. 

 

Or atleast what I think your thoughts are. Like I said I don't read minds. If I could I would have better luck in relationships. 

 

So what does this scripture in Jeremiah mean to you?

 

DB

I see the verses as rather self-evident for an older Christian DB.....the laws now written in our heart and mind, judged along with Grace rather than the Law's way of atonement for sin.  

 

The point being, for some reason, you keep saying that generational sin is gone per the NT.  I don't understand how you see that at all....rather it's just treated differently.

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14 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

I will agree. Addiction can be a hereditary trait. I come from a long line of alcoholics and am probably a functional alcoholic myself. 

 

But because you have the gene doesn't necessarily mean your going to be an addict. 

 

The thing is. Nowhere in the new testament does it say that sins will pass to the child. Or atleast nowhere that I know of.  I've been looking trying to find something. 

 

Everything I can think of only states that people will be punished for their own sins. In hell for the most part. That's a big reason why I think this teaching is no longer valid from the new testament forward. 

 

DB

 

Ps. Ill keep looking. Maybe we can find several scriptures that will kinda lay it out there and show us what's up. 

I think you are misinterpreting here.  The sins are still passed to the child, the difference just being the New Covenant treatment vs. the law.  

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1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

Ok @Edgarcito,

 

I've looked everywhere and have found very few verses of scripture on this subject. I did find this Christian article that I think accurately addresses the issue. From a Christian perspective. We've already covered the scripture used here. And I think it is a huge leap to say God tampers with the genetics of our children based on a couple of scriptures describing a generational curse for Idolaters. 

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/parents-sin.html

 

Everything else I find says that everyone will be held accountable for their own sins. I don't see any mention of anyone thinking sins pass to the children in the new testament save for one instance. 

 

John 9

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,

7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.

 

Here the apostles think that it could have been his parents sin that caused this man to be blind. Jesus said it wasn't anyone's sin but that he was blind so that God could make a miracle in his life. 

 

You had originally mentioned fetal alcohol syndrome. This is a direct result of the mothers sin of drinking. But it is not a hereditary genetic trait. There are many things that can cause birth defects in babies if the mother puts those things into her body while pregnant. This is not a result of God punishing the child for the mothers transgression. But a result of the mother causing her baby to be born this way due to her addictions. 

 

These genetic traits you are seeing can be either good or bad depending on what our ancestors endured. This is the slow process of evolution at work. Not the hand of an almighty God. In most cases our genetics will change to help us survive. If anything epigenetics supports evolution which is not a biblical concept. It is not limited to humans. But is a trait found in probably all areas of life on earth. Even plants. 

 

I think that alone disproves that "bad genes" have anything to do with sin. 

 

DB

To be fair, I expect epigenetics is a specific mechanism to limit expression.  I'm unaware if alcoholism is an epigenetic mechanism.  I expect the research speculates that this mechanism is real and if a function of what our bodies can do to exposure.  The implication is that our behaviors can be intentional to those exposures (sin), and that we may then pass down those epigenetic mechanisms to our offspring from the father.  

 

I will look to see if research has identified any specific relationship to "sin".....that they can affirm.

 

Thx.

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1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

Also @Edgarcito,

 

I was thinking about this as well. We just came off a thread where you argued that we have "freewill" to choose right from wrong. If God tampers with a childs genetics to make them more prone to alcoholism, addiction, obesity, or even sexual promiscuity. How would that be considered "free will?" There is no way free will can be true if god does that. That immediately puts a person at a disadvantage from birth. That doesn't sound like something an all loving God would do to someone if he really doesn't want people to perish but have life everlasting does it?

 

DB

I thought we decided I can't demonstrate free will vs. predestination.  As our perception is that of free will and the genetic transfer due to our free behavior is there, I'm going with that.  Thanks.  I expect the two yahoos fed you that from the backside.

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1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

I thought we decided I can't demonstrate free will vs. predestination.  As our perception is that of free will and the genetic transfer due to our free behavior is there, I'm going with that.  Thanks.  I expect the two yahoos fed you that from the backside.

Actually no they didn't. I don't need to be "fed" anything. It just makes sense. If you truly believe in "free will" then there is no way you should be able to believe that God tampers with our genetics to make us more prone to sin. I made that connection all by myself thank you.

 

DB

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Just now, DarkBishop said:

Actually no they didn't. I don't need to be "fed" anything. It just makes sense. If you truly believe in "free will" then there is no way you should be able to believe that God tampers with our genetics to make us more prone to sin. I made that connection all by myself thank you.

 

DB

 

However if predestination is true and God hardens the heart of man as he wills. Than tampering with genetics would be a good way to achieve that end. 

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11 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

To be fair, I expect epigenetics is a specific mechanism to limit expression.  I'm unaware if alcoholism is an epigenetic mechanism.  I expect the research speculates that this mechanism is real and if a function of what our bodies can do to exposure.  The implication is that our behaviors can be intentional to those exposures (sin), and that we may then pass down those epigenetic mechanisms to our offspring from the father.  

 

I will look to see if research has identified any specific relationship to "sin".....that they can affirm.

 

Thx.

 

https://americanaddictioncenters.org/alcoholism-treatment/symptoms-and-signs/hereditary-or-genetic

 

If you have family members who struggle with alcohol misuse, you may wonder if alcohol misuse is genetic. Scientists have found that there is a 50% chance of being predisposed to alcohol use disorder (AUD), but the specific causes are still unknown and identifying the biological basis for this risk is a vital step in controlling the disease.

This article will discuss whether alcoholism is passed down through biological families and how you can avoid alcoholism if it runs in your family.

Key definitions related to this topic include the following:

Genetics. This is the study of how genes and their building blocks, DNA, contain sequences that determine the qualities and traits of a person. Each person has approximately 20,000 genes.

Heredity. This refers to the passage of characteristics and traits from parent to offspring through changes in DNA.

Genetic predisposition. This means that through a person’s genes and heredity they have an increased likelihood of having a certain disease, trait, or behavior. A predisposition doesn’t always cause a disease or trait to develop, but instead it tends to contribute to its development. Therefore, you may be predisposed to something and never actually have it develop.

Learned behavior. This is a behavior that developed from observing your surroundings or through direct experience. It is not heritable. Learned behavior can be learned through associating one stimulus with another (classical conditioning), in the early stages of life by imitating parents (imprinting), or by not responding to a stimulus after repetition (habituation).

Is Alcohol Tolerance Inherited?

Alcohol tolerance means that equal amounts of alcohol lead to lesser effects over time, leading to a need for higher quantities of alcohol to feel the same desired effects. While it may seem like there is a genetic predisposition for alcohol tolerance, tolerance is not inherited.

It results from drinking substantial amounts of alcohol over long periods of time. However, alcohol intolerance may be genetic. Most commonly seen in those of Asian dissent, alcohol intolerance is when the body has an adverse reaction to the presence of alcohol. Most common examples is when a person’s skin flushes and nose gets stuffy right after drinking alcohol. This is a result of issues with alcohol metabolism, which is believed to be hereditary.

You are not alone. You deserve to get help for alcohol addiction.

AAC is an industry leader in addiction treatment. Our team of top medical experts specialize in dual diagnosis treatment and are committed to ensuring that each patient is treated as an individual. Call us today, we're available 24/7.

Call

(888) 821-2506

Why call us?

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Can Alcoholism Skip a Generation?

There are many genes, and variations of genes, that impact a person’s risk of developing an alcohol use disorder. There is no one “alcohol gene” that leads to the development of an alcohol use disorder. Researchers have found more than 400 locations in all the genetic information in an organism (genome) and at least 566 variants within these locations that could influence the extent that someone may suffer from alcohol abuse. Genes that relate to alcohol metabolism, particularly ADH1B and ALDH2, seem to be closest tied to the risk for problem drinking.

A family history of alcohol use disorders may increase the risk of genetic predisposition to developing an alcohol use disorder, with risks heightened for parent-child transmission. Environmental factors also play a role in developing an alcohol use disorder when an individual has a family history of alcohol misuse. However, with multiple genes playing a role in the development of an AUD, it is possible that this disease could skip a generation. If parents do not have an alcohol use disorder, it does not mean that the offspring cannot develop an AUD. Similarly, if a grandparent has an alcohol problem but the parents don’t, that doesn’t mean a child won’t be predisposed to alcoholism.

 

So yeah. There are genetic links to alcoholism. 

 

DB

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6 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

https://americanaddictioncenters.org/alcoholism-treatment/symptoms-and-signs/hereditary-or-genetic

 

If you have family members who struggle with alcohol misuse, you may wonder if alcohol misuse is genetic. Scientists have found that there is a 50% chance of being predisposed to alcohol use disorder (AUD), but the specific causes are still unknown and identifying the biological basis for this risk is a vital step in controlling the disease.

This article will discuss whether alcoholism is passed down through biological families and how you can avoid alcoholism if it runs in your family.

Key definitions related to this topic include the following:

Genetics. This is the study of how genes and their building blocks, DNA, contain sequences that determine the qualities and traits of a person. Each person has approximately 20,000 genes.

Heredity. This refers to the passage of characteristics and traits from parent to offspring through changes in DNA.

Genetic predisposition. This means that through a person’s genes and heredity they have an increased likelihood of having a certain disease, trait, or behavior. A predisposition doesn’t always cause a disease or trait to develop, but instead it tends to contribute to its development. Therefore, you may be predisposed to something and never actually have it develop.

Learned behavior. This is a behavior that developed from observing your surroundings or through direct experience. It is not heritable. Learned behavior can be learned through associating one stimulus with another (classical conditioning), in the early stages of life by imitating parents (imprinting), or by not responding to a stimulus after repetition (habituation).

Is Alcohol Tolerance Inherited?

Alcohol tolerance means that equal amounts of alcohol lead to lesser effects over time, leading to a need for higher quantities of alcohol to feel the same desired effects. While it may seem like there is a genetic predisposition for alcohol tolerance, tolerance is not inherited.

It results from drinking substantial amounts of alcohol over long periods of time. However, alcohol intolerance may be genetic. Most commonly seen in those of Asian dissent, alcohol intolerance is when the body has an adverse reaction to the presence of alcohol. Most common examples is when a person’s skin flushes and nose gets stuffy right after drinking alcohol. This is a result of issues with alcohol metabolism, which is believed to be hereditary.

You are not alone. You deserve to get help for alcohol addiction.

AAC is an industry leader in addiction treatment. Our team of top medical experts specialize in dual diagnosis treatment and are committed to ensuring that each patient is treated as an individual. Call us today, we're available 24/7.

Call

(888) 821-2506

Why call us?

Free, 24/7, confidential support via SMS. Sign up for text support to get help today.

Can Alcoholism Skip a Generation?

There are many genes, and variations of genes, that impact a person’s risk of developing an alcohol use disorder. There is no one “alcohol gene” that leads to the development of an alcohol use disorder. Researchers have found more than 400 locations in all the genetic information in an organism (genome) and at least 566 variants within these locations that could influence the extent that someone may suffer from alcohol abuse. Genes that relate to alcohol metabolism, particularly ADH1B and ALDH2, seem to be closest tied to the risk for problem drinking.

A family history of alcohol use disorders may increase the risk of genetic predisposition to developing an alcohol use disorder, with risks heightened for parent-child transmission. Environmental factors also play a role in developing an alcohol use disorder when an individual has a family history of alcohol misuse. However, with multiple genes playing a role in the development of an AUD, it is possible that this disease could skip a generation. If parents do not have an alcohol use disorder, it does not mean that the offspring cannot develop an AUD. Similarly, if a grandparent has an alcohol problem but the parents don’t, that doesn’t mean a child won’t be predisposed to alcoholism.

 

So yeah. There are genetic links to alcoholism. 

 

DB

Yes, but to my understanding, epigenetics suggests a specific mechanism.  

 

Edit:  I think the research suggests it is.

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Damn Ed you made me work for this one but I think I have it now. I think you and I can both agree that this specific scripture is solely a part of the mosaic law. It doesn't come into play until God gives Moses the commandments and laws that the isrealites are to live by. This is what Paul has to say about the law in the book of galatians. 

 

Galatians 2

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

The lesson continues on in chapter 3

 

Galatians 3

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

@Edgarcito

 

We are no longer under the law. This includes the curse of the law as you can see in the scripture above. 

 

"10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 

I think you and I can both agree that according to Christianity you can no longer get to heaven by following the Law. Correct? 

 

Jesus said this:

John 14

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

I can also tell you when the law was taken away. At the death of Jesus on the cross. Also reflected in this scripture. 

 

Galatians 3

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

 

Matthew 27

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

 

This marked the end of the law. And the end of the curse. Jesus hung on a cross for our sins. The curse of the law did not last past the death of Jesus. 

 

I can also show you when God wrote his laws in everyone's hearts that believed on him. It wasn't through genetics. 

 

Acts 2

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

This was the fulfillment of the scripture you posted from Jeremiah. And the fulfillment of Jesus' promise to the apostles.

 

John 16

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

What did it say in Jeremiah? 

 

Jeremiah 31

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

Here it is again in Hebrews 8

 

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

 

1 corinthians 2

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

 

It is the Holy ghost that God uses to write on the hearts of men. Not our DNA, he doesn't tamper with genetics. Even in the bible. 

 

Thanks 

Dark Bishop

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3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I think the Bible says that you can't see if I'm not mistaken.

 

That's exactly right, Ed.

 

 

1 Corinthians 2 : 14

 

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

 

 

 

If you have realized that we cannot see what you see by faith, why do you persist in trying to make us see it?  That would be like asking a blind man to read ordinary book and then, when he says that he cannot see what it says, putting another ordinary book in his hands... and then another and another and so on and so on.  He will never see what's printed in those ordinary books, no matter how many you put in front of him.

 

However, there is a way that he can find out what you mean, but it's up to you to put the right kind of book in his hands.  So, talking only in terms of the analogy here Edgarcito, what is the only kind of book a blind man can read?  And transferring this example to our dialogue in this forum, what is the only kind of language that you can use to communicate with us?

 

 

Please answer these two questions.  They should open your eyes.

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Damn Ed you made me work for this one but I think I have it now. I think you and I can both agree that this specific scripture is solely a part of the mosaic law. It doesn't come into play until God gives Moses the commandments and laws that the isrealites are to live by. This is what Paul has to say about the law in the book of galatians. 

 

Galatians 2

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

The lesson continues on in chapter 3

 

Galatians 3

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

@Edgarcito

 

We are no longer under the law. This includes the curse of the law as you can see in the scripture above. 

 

"10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 

I think you and I can both agree that according to Christianity you can no longer get to heaven by following the Law. Correct? 

 

Jesus said this:

John 14

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

I can also tell you when the law was taken away. At the death of Jesus on the cross. Also reflected in this scripture. 

 

Galatians 3

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

 

Matthew 27

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

 

This marked the end of the law. And the end of the curse. Jesus hung on a cross for our sins. The curse of the law did not last past the death of Jesus. 

 

I can also show you when God wrote his laws in everyone's hearts that believed on him. It wasn't through genetics. 

 

Acts 2

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

This was the fulfillment of the scripture you posted from Jeremiah. And the fulfillment of Jesus' promise to the apostles.

 

John 16

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

What did it say in Jeremiah? 

 

Jeremiah 31

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

Here it is again in Hebrews 8

 

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

 

1 corinthians 2

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

 

It is the Holy ghost that God uses to write on the hearts of men. Not our DNA, he doesn't tamper with genetics. Even in the bible. 

 

Thanks 

Dark Bishop

I'm sorry DB, but I think we still disagree.  I believe that I can handicap my children today, in Christ, through generational sin.  It's the remedy for that sin that has changed imo.  Perhaps there was the combined sins that were held accountable in the OT, continual sin and individual sin....that if not corrected, you and your dad's sins were needing to be atoned for.  I'm gathering that in the NT, faith in Christ is on an individual basis.  In other words, under the Law, the condition was sin free in order to remain...the sum total of everyone's sin....i.e. correct, atone for it all, to remain.

 

I see existing with God as more an absolute, sin free environment in the OT.  So if dad sins and continues to sin, then there is an additive effect passed to the next generations....along with the sins of the individual of the next generation.  I think the NT is saying that the additive effect is no longer in play, that now it's possible for Dad to have hurt my playing field, but that I am only responsible for my individual sin, not the entire line of sin.  I may be misunderstanding, but that's my interpretation. Thx.

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50 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm sorry DB, but I think we still disagree.  I believe that I can handicap my children today, in Christ, through generational sin.  It's the remedy for that sin that has changed imo.  Perhaps there was the combined sins that were held accountable in the OT, continual sin and individual sin....that if not corrected, you and your dad's sins were needing to be atoned for.  I'm gathering that in the NT, faith in Christ is on an individual basis.  In other words, under the Law, the condition was sin free in order to remain...the sum total of everyone's sin....i.e. correct, atone for it all, to remain.

 

I see existing with God as more an absolute, sin free environment in the OT.  So if dad sins and continues to sin, then there is an additive effect passed to the next generations....along with the sins of the individual of the next generation.  I think the NT is saying that the additive effect is no longer in play, that now it's possible for Dad to have hurt my playing field, but that I am only responsible for my individual sin, not the entire line of sin.  I may be misunderstanding, but that's my interpretation. Thx.

Ok in other words you don't believe the Bible. I've laid it out from old testament to new. That specific scripture is part of the law that ended in the fulfillment of the law which was in Jesus Christ. The specific scripture you quoted in Jeremiah was directly linked to the coming of the Holy Ghost in the new testament by the apostles themselves and by Jesus. 

 

I would like you to prove otherwise using the Bible. Not one verse. Not two. But several from the old and new testament supporting your point of view like I just did. I spent 2 days trying to piece my thoughts together concerning this subject so put in some work. Don't make an assertion on what the Christian God does unless your going to back it up with the Bible. If you can't do that then fuck off. 

 

If your not going to accept what the Bible says or bring forth a cohesive argument using scripture to the contrary then we are done here. 

 

DB

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15 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Ok in other words you don't believe the Bible. I've laid it out from old testament to new. That specific scripture is part of the law that ended in the fulfillment of the law which was in Jesus Christ. The specific scripture you quoted in Jeremiah was directly linked to the coming of the Holy Ghost in the new testament by the apostles themselves and by Jesus. 

 

I would like you to prove otherwise using the Bible. Not one verse. Not two. But several from the old and new testament supporting your point of view like I just did. I spent 2 days trying to piece my thoughts together concerning this subject so put in some work. Don't make an assertion on what the Christian God does unless your going to back it up with the Bible. If you can't do that then fuck off. 

 

If your not going to accept what the Bible says or bring forth a cohesive argument using scripture to the contrary then we are done here. 

 

DB

Just so you know, I wasn't intending on upsetting you at all.  I just disagree.  It's ok, I'll look into my interpretation.  Thank you for the effort and trust.  Again, I wasn't attempting to upset the conversation.  Thx.

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15 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Just so you know, I wasn't intending on upsetting you at all.  I just disagree.  It's ok, I'll look into my interpretation.  Thank you for the effort and trust.  Again, I wasn't attempting to upset the conversation.  Thx.

Well ya got me upset when you alleged someone was feeding me what to say. I've been working trying to justify why I think this doctrine didn't go past the new testament. No one has fed me anything. And apology would be nice. 

 

Ive been trying to justify my case using scripture because I didn't think you would accept any extra biblical information to counter a biblical narrative. And likewise if you are a Christian you need to support your argument with scripture. And that is what I expect. You haven't offered much of an argument on your part. I'll wait for you to collect your thoughts. 

 

DB

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I guess it depends on how you interpret the verse in Exodus.   Clearly the interpretation suggests our salvation is judged independently in the NT....and could in the old as well, but the verse suggests that continued sin....i.e., those "that hate me", who continue in sin, the damage moves generationally.  Might be an interesting study to see how long it takes abusing alcohol before these epigenetic changes occur.  Regardless, the continued "sin" appears to affect...

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6 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Well ya got me upset when you alleged someone was feeding me what to say. I've been working trying to justify why I think this doctrine didn't go past the new testament. No one has fed me anything. And apology would be nice. 

 

Ive been trying to justify my case using scripture because I didn't think you would accept any extra biblical information to counter a biblical narrative. And likewise if you are a Christian you need to support your argument with scripture. And that is what I expect. You haven't offered much of an argument on your part. I'll wait for you to collect your thoughts. 

 

DB

Well you can see how distrust has affected me as well.  Dealing with that peckerwood Walter and the Prof, that we continue throwing spears at each other rather than just talking across to each other has me overthinking.  I apologize.  Thanks again.

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12 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Well you can see how distrust has affected me as well.  Dealing with that peckerwood Walter and the Prof, that we continue throwing spears at each other rather than just talking across to each other has me overthinking.  I apologize.  Thanks again.

Apology accept. I apologize for telling you you can fuck off. 

 

DB

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25 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Apology accept. I apologize for telling you you can fuck off. 

 

DB

It's all good sir....no worries.  Thx.

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Edgarcito,

 

I wasn't a jackass, a troll, a yahoo or a peckerwood when I opened the scriptures for your understanding, a week ago.

 

In response, you wrote...

 

 

 My first impression is this is impressive insight.  Seemingly the content in Genesis is there for a reason.  I don't know that I've heard of this reasoning over the years.  I wish you would share these more betting you have many to offer.  Thx.

 

 

Three hours ago I quoted 1 Corinthians 2 : 14 for your benefit and for the wider benefit of this thread.

 

You could be on the verge of another impressive insight today.

 

The choice is yours.

 

All you have to do is answer two questions.

 

One of them you might need some help with and I'm happy to give it.

 

But, as I said, the choice is yours.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

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For the record, I've been called much worse names by much better men.  Carry on. 

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3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

That's exactly right, Ed.

 

 

1 Corinthians 2 : 14

 

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

 

 

 

If you have realized that we cannot see what you see by faith, why do you persist in trying to make us see it?  That would be like asking a blind man to read ordinary book and then, when he says that he cannot see what it says, putting another ordinary book in his hands... and then another and another and so on and so on.  He will never see what's printed in those ordinary books, no matter how many you put in front of him.

 

However, there is a way that he can find out what you mean, but it's up to you to put the right kind of book in his hands.  So, talking only in terms of the analogy here Edgarcito, what is the only kind of book a blind man can read?  And transferring this example to our dialogue in this forum, what is the only kind of language that you can use to communicate with us?

 

 

Please answer these two questions.  They should open your eyes.

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The point Walter, although we typically reason in a logical manner, why would I want to use logic when discussing something that isn't always logical.  And that maybe after 36 pages that point settles with you.  I get your point but the congregation here are Ex Christians and should have the "sight" prior to the logical version.  

 

Your admitted sole purpose is not what you profess but rather a not very nice purpose given one potentially ends you in eternal distress.  I'd rather continue to win souls even if I lost my faith.  Thanks but no thanks.

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5 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

For the record, I've been called much worse names by much better men.  Carry on. 

See you won't stop....better man.

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1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

The point Walter, although we typically reason in a logical manner, why would I want to use logic when discussing something that isn't always logical.  And that maybe after 36 pages that point settles with you.  I get your point but the congregation here are Ex Christians and should have the "sight" prior to the logical version.  

 

Your admitted sole purpose is not what you profess but rather a not very nice purpose given one potentially ends you in eternal distress.  I'd rather continue to win souls even if I lost my faith.  Thanks but no thanks.

 

Matthew 7 : 6

 

“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

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15 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

See you won't stop....better man.

Quitters never win, son.  And winners never quit.

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20 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I'd rather continue to win souls even if I lost my faith.  Thanks but no thanks.

 

??????? I'm having trouble seeing how thats possible. Why would you want to win souls to Jesus if you lost faith in..... Jesus.....? 

 

Nevermind..... let's not get side tracked. You do you. 

 

DB

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