Shocked by how strongly I feel and how much I am grieving...needing support

[Salemite]

I extricated myself from religion 7 years ago. I am lucky to say that my husband and I deconverted together which I know is highly unusual and something I am very grateful for.  It took everything I had, emotionally and intellectually, to build up the courage to leave and still maintain decent relationships with all my family members who are active and most have full time jobs in the ministry. It was gut wrenching and I feel l left religion for VERY good reasons.  I have been kind and accepting (don't belittle or make fun of Christian family or friends; I try to be respectful and kind and realize we are all products of how were raised, our psychological/cognitive dispositions, and a culmination of life experiences). My "openness" and "respect" I think are coming back to bite me in the butt. I have always thought and felt that I would be okay with whatever my kids chose but have recently discovered that my emotions are betraying me and/or really they are just exposing the way I really feel.  I have unresolved trauma.

 

My teen daughter has a crush and this boy who happens to be a non-denominational christian who is very active in the church.  I like him. Smart, disciplined, kind and plays sports. In all these ways he is perfect for my daughter.  He is religious and of course is asking her to go to church with him.  Even though my daughter is beautiful, talented, smart, and athletic she of course is not good enough the way she is...she has to believe in Jesus and go to church to be acceptable. I think I have been kind towards christians and haven't belittled them so she is naturally shrugging her shoulders at being asked (and what she doesn't fully comprehend is that it is basically a requirement that she become like them and believe what they believe).  I am pissed. Sad. Can't sleep at night. The christian friends I have maintained relationships with are constantly inviting her to every f* event and I feel like I have lost her to the Sky God Club. She of course is just doing this to please a boy and it all seems relatively fun.  I was raised super strict, never could date, go to dances, was homeschooled, had to "submit" to male authority, and was expected to have kids, stay home and let my husband lead our household.  I have raised my daughter the last 7 years to be free, explore what she wants, and intentionally put no such constraints on her.  I wish I had been raised the way she has been but I wasn't. I am giving her what I was denied (so much fun and limitless possibilities of who she can become). I am trying to be logical and see that her experiences are different and of course she is glad she wasn't raised "under a rock" (as my son likes to say...lol) so all of this christian stuff seems harmless.

 

It just isn't that harmless and/or innocent. And yes, I will love her no matter what she chooses.  But she kind of is choosing to go to church based on a boy which is not a good reason. I have calmly explained that I will love her no matter what she chooses but I stated what it means to be part of the Sky God Club (gays are sinful, everyone who doesn’t believe goes to eternal hell, women can’t teach or lead men ever, women are to submit to their husbands etc).  I know I should be calm. Who knows what is going to happen. I think this is a major trauma response in me. I obviously have a lot of unresolved issues.  I feel so down, hurt, and afraid. I feel like I will loose her to religion. My mind goes to the future where I am not allowed to take care of my grandkids because I would be a bad influence and Gma is going to hell.  I know, I am being dramatic but this is what I am feeling right now.  It pisses me off that Christians feel like they have to convert people and tear families apart.  It’s like the Borg from Star Trek….assimilate and be part of the collective or perish. The pressures, the mental gymnastics required to believe, the lack of evidence that belief in God makes anyone a better person or more moral, the degradation of women, the hate for gays, the tribalism….I don’t want that for my kids.  I am just so sad. Thanks for letting me rant.

 

Any advice from those that have walked this path?  I feel like I am not just letting things go and being super chill as I feel like I have an obligation to at least educate her.  On the other hand, I don’t want to control (or try to), I don’t want to overreact (I haven’t to her face; just in private with my husband lol), and I do want her to be who she wants to be.  Love to hear your thoughts and stories.

 

[Henndigo]

How old is your teen daughter?  It’s quite likely that she will eventually move on from him.  I have a teen daughter  too and for awhile, she dated a church going young man.  However, she eventually decided that both he and church life was not for her.  She was sixteen at that time. 
I think giving her the freedom to explore what she believed increased the sense of trust between us.  We have good conversations about religion now.  She said to me the other day that she thinks praying is a form of manifestation or visualisation - so many people of different religions do it with limited results but claim how powerful it is.  My daughter made those observations in her time attending with her boyfriend.  They broke up after a year and that was when she decisively decided she was not religious.

If you have raised your daughter to be a critical thinker, she will likely work it out for herself.  
I understand your anxiety though - it sounds like religion is ubiquitous where you live.  Where I live, it is not.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Good afternoon, Salemite

 

I haven't walked that exact path but I am on a similar one. And honestly I haven't hid what I thought with my kids. My son deconverted. And I probably was a big influence because I would openly point out the ridiculousness of the Bible after I deconverted to him. And he is having a hard time finding someone to even date around here. Most everyone around here are religious to some capacity. He is in the navy reserve and as much as I will hate not seeing him often. I know he'll have better chances finding someone outside of this area. So I'm thinking about encouraging him to enlist full time. He's been thinking about it anyway. 

 

But I think you should be voicing your concerns to your daughter. I mean they are legitimate concerns. I know a guy. He is Christian and his daughter converted to a holiness church because of her husband. And she has nothing to do with him because their church says that if you backslide after salvation that your doomed for hell and will never be able to go to heaven. So they are instructed that they shouldn't associate with them. Even if they are your own parents. (Edit: He is an avid church goer himself. So its not like he is still "living in sin". He "got right" with the Lord. As we say around here.)

 

Those fears you have are real. I have a weird relationship right now. My Ex wife still lives with me and we still try to make things work out. But she is still a believer. So it's complicated. I try to respect her beliefs but our daughter feels that she is lesbian now. And of course I feel I need to support that. If I don't I feel I would be a bad father. So we are at odds there. And it hasn't been easy. But we still love each other despite all that. So we try. But I do worry about her influence on her. I mean she's young and impressionable. And my ex could still get her into the church. And how would that effect my relationship with my daughter since I'm the unbeliever. So I get where your coming from. My daughter knows I don't agree with those types of teaching. If she did convert I would encourage her to go to a more liberal church like the Episcopalian church or something. They accept homosexuals. That way she could still be herself and believe. 

 

And maybe that is an option you could explore. Voice your concerns and ask her to suggest that her boyfriend attend a different church that is more liberal in their treatment of women. Because it more aligns with her feelings. If he won't accept that then he might be to controlling of a Christian. That would give you an indication of how things would be if your daughter married him and joined the church. It would also show her and give her a chance to decide if that is what she wants in a husband. 

 

I hope all this helps. 

 

Best wishes,

Dark Bishop

[◊ Krowb ◊]

Your daughter may just wind up influencing the young man.  It was my wife's sincere questions that lead me down the path away from religion.  She was raised non-religious and enjoyed going to church after we started dating and were married, but I could not answer her questions past the surface level.  She never pressed, but I could not satisfy myself with the answers and well . . . look at where I am now.

[Salemite]

1 hour ago, Henndigo said:

How old is your teen daughter?  It’s quite likely that she will eventually move on from him.  I have a teen daughter  too and for awhile, she dated a church going young man.  However, she eventually decided that both he and church life was not for her.  She was sixteen at that time. 
I think giving her the freedom to explore what she believed increased the sense of trust between us.  We have good conversations about religion now.  She said to me the other day that she thinks praying is a form of manifestation or visualisation - so many people of different religions do it with limited results but claim how powerful it is.  My daughter made those observations in her time attending with her boyfriend.  They broke up after a year and that was when she decisively decided she was not religious.

If you have raised your daughter to be a critical thinker, she will likely work it out for herself.  
I understand your anxiety though - it sounds like religion is ubiquitous where you live.  Where I live, it is not.

She is 16.  I agree.  This most likely will pass. If I had friends around me that had deconverted it probably would be helpful for me emotionally to chat about it so I process my fears and anxieties and then let them go (so thankful for this forum!!).   I need to speak my mind but not make fun of things or be disrespectful.  She is smart and I do think we have raised our kids to be critical thinkers. I want to be someone safe she can always talk to and I want her to know I will love her no matter what. Thanks for your response!  It is always so helpful to hear from others in similar circumstances.  Your situation does sound complicated...kudos to you for being able to walk that path and love those around you so well!!

[Salemite]

Henndigo--Thanks for sharing your story. Sorry...last sentence in my response to you was meant for Dark Bishop. LOL. Still trying to navigate how to respond on this forum.  Can't figure how to edit my posts quite yet :).

 

Dark Bishop-- Your situation sounds complicated....kudos to you for being able to walk that path and love those around you so well!  He is a conservative Christian and I am pretty sure he would never go to a "liberal" church. Thanks for understanding my fears.  It is nice to feel heard and also see how others are handling things with their kids.  I agree the military is a great melting pot that will provide lots of exposure to other points of view and a lot of adventure.  Certain parts of the country are really saturated with religious mindsets which makes it difficult to find a partner that is agnostic or atheist. 

 

Krowb--That is true. We all influence each other. And who knows how this situation will turn out.  I am planting seeds with my daughter and hoping she doesn't just absorb the religious mantra hook, line and sinker. 

 

Thanks for taking the time to write. I am already settling myself, taking a deep breath and telling myself to stay calm and have good conversations whenever there is an opportunity.  I just need to be available, speak my mind in kindness, love her and trust that she is capable of navigating this complicated world!

 

[freshstart]

6 hours ago, Salemite said:

But she kind of is choosing to go to church based on a boy which is not a good reason. I have calmly explained that I will love her no matter what she chooses but I stated what it means to be part of the Sky God Club (gays are sinful, everyone who doesn’t believe goes to eternal hell, women can’t teach or lead men ever, women are to submit to their husbands etc).  I know I should be calm. Who knows what is going to happen. I think this is a major trauma response in me. I obviously have a lot of unresolved issues.  I feel so down, hurt, and afraid. I feel like I will loose her to religion. My mind goes to the future where I am not allowed to take care of my grandkids because I would be a bad influence and Gma is going to hell.  I know, I am being dramatic but this is what I am feeling right now. 

From someone who survived the teenage years of 3 girls who were (unfortunately) raised in backward Christian beliefs (thanks mostly to my mother's tremendous and regrettable influence), my advice is going to sound very patronizing, but I'm going to say it anyway:  relax.  These are teen years, which by definition means experimental years.  If she flirts with the idea of becoming part of the "Sky God Club," just continue to gently plant seeds of doubt.  Girls (and boys) do all sorts of things to please their crushes at the request of their hormones.  In the end, most of us do not end up being the person we were as a teenager.  Trust that you have done a good job with your daughter and trust that she will come to the right conclusions in the end, even if she makes mistakes along the way.  Plus try to remember it could always be worse.  Your daughter is attracted to someone you like, whom you described as "smart, disciplined, kind" and perfect for your daughter in many ways. She could have just as easily been drawn to someone who was the opposite of all those traits.  Hang in there.  The teen years are definitely a roller coaster ride.

[Salemite]

freshstart--Yes. I finally 24 hrs later came to the "Relax. She is just a teen. I do trust her. She could be doing worse but could also be setting herself on a path that I don't really wish for her. I think I will try to definitely stay calm but also gently point things out when needed (basically plant seeds of doubt). I don't want to be silent but also don't want to be reactive. I will figure this out!"  Are you girls religious and married to religious men/women now that they are older?  You are so right!  Raising teens is a roller coaster.  She is my youngest of 3.  Thanks for sharing your perspective.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

4 hours ago, Salemite said:

 

You are so right!  Raising teens is a roller coaster.  

 

I left "the fold" when our youngest girl was about 15 years old.  My wife did not leave (at that time) and they continued going to church.  We didn't pressure her in either direction about church, but she sided with the church against me at first.  That changed.  She wasn't dating a guy at church regularly, but continued to go until she went off to college, where she stopped going.  She is now agnostic, very humanitarian, and married an atheist.  

 

I am curious.  What denomination does your daughters boyfriend attend?

[Salemite]

Weezer,

Conservative, non-denominational, bible church.  A little less conservative than what I was raised in as they do have drums in their worship team (lol).  It is the kind of place that believes in literal translation and inherency of the bible. Strong views on women's roles, gays, keeping kids from reading "bad" books and watching "worldly" movies etc. Nothing crazy but definitely doesn't leave a whole lot of wiggle room for being different or having more liberal views. Thanks for sharing your story!

 

[older]

My story is a little different. I lost my daughter to fundamentalism and I didn’t see it coming.

 

My wife and I were never into the heavy Christian thing. When I was a teen, I had bailed out of the liberal Congregational church I’d been dragged to as a child, and my wife went to an Episcopal church to please her mother. Wifey did take the kids but none of them got heavily into it.

 

And at home we just didn’t talk religion or politics. I don’t know why; there were just so many other things going on in our lives that took our attention.

 

When daughter was in high school we sent her to a sleep-away music camp and there she became friends with another girl who played the same instrument. They not only stayed in the same cabin at camp but sat next to each other in the camp band and orchestra. Unknown to us, that girl was a fundie.

 

One of the things that happens in camps like this and at the age of 15 or 16 is those late-night discussions about life and it’s meaning. And we here at ExCh. also know that one of the goals of a fundie is to spread the word. Fundie girl lived in the next town over and after the camp ended, they got together from time to time and my daughter went to fundie girl’s church a number of times. We still didn’t see anything worrisome, although we thought it was a little unusual that my daughter didn’t date in high school. We just figured that she was too busy.

 

When daughter went off to college she surprised us by specifically choosing to be in the section of the dorm populated by fundies, where she met and then married the man who remains her spouse. He’s a good man and their children are so far OK.

 

But daughter and hubby are into the whole program including the political aspects, which are opposed to ours. For example, the church they go to recently made the local news when an out-of-town preacher came and bashed the LGBTQ community from the pulpit.

 

Unfortunately, daughter has taken it to a personal level, the details of which aren’t relevant here, but her personality has changed from the shy quiet child she was to a brassy, bossy, selfish, hypocritical Karen, and as a result I limit contact with her. Sadly, this means that the grandchildren are not as available either.

 

In retrospect, I wish my wife and I had talked more with her when she was young about our values and paid more attention to who she was associating with. While we couldn’t stop our kids from making their own friends, we could have done more to create an environment where the potential friends they were exposed to were more in line with our values.

[freshstart]

On 11/7/2022 at 9:46 PM, Salemite said:

Are you girls religious and married to religious men/women now that they are older? 

So my one daughter takes time off to work for a missionary organization every so often and she has what I would call a watered down faith. She is pro-choice, lives with her non-religious (probably agnostic) bf, and is moderate in her political beliefs, but still attends church and tries to overcome the doubts I can clearly see she has, much to the annoyance of her Christian friends.

 

Another daughter is very steeped in what I would call liberal Christianity. She reflects the true spirit of what Christianity should be: kind, generous, non-judgmental. She doesn't believe anyone should go to hell, she has gay friends (who are married), and is just a very loving person. Her husband is the same way, but unlike her, he does not believe the creation story is literally true. If all Christians were like them, I would have no problem with Christianity. I have to remind myself that although I disagree with some of her beliefs, she could have made far worse choices.

 

What my first 2 daughters fail to realize is that they are partially deconverted. They are happy with cherry picking what they like and wholly rejecting other parts of the bible as if magically irrelevent. One day I will point this out to them.

 

My youngest daughter is agnostic, but she also received the least brainwashing as my doubts grew stronger over time while I was raising them.

 

The way I see it, trying to be a good Christian, especially during the teenage years, is not ideal for growing into a healthy adult, but it is also, by far, not the worst choice a teen can make.

[older]

14 hours ago, freshstart said:

So my one daughter takes time off to work for a missionary organization every so often and she has what I would call a watered down faith. She is pro-choice, lives with her non-religious (probably agnostic) bf, and is moderate in her political beliefs, but still attends church and tries to overcome the doubts I can clearly see she has, much to the annoyance of her Christian friends.

 

Another daughter is very steeped in what I would call liberal Christianity. She reflects the true spirit of what Christianity should be: kind, generous, non-judgmental. She doesn't believe anyone should go to hell, she has gay friends (who are married), and is just a very loving person. Her husband is the same way, but unlike her, he does not believe the creation story is literally true. If all Christians were like them, I would have no problem with Christianity. I have to remind myself that although I disagree with some of her beliefs, she could have made far worse choices.

....

 

This is what it comes down to. I think many of us would have no problem with folks who embrace the parts of Christianity that are common to all religions and cultures: a basic humanity of kindness, love, helpfulness, tolerance, and so on. And that also includes refraining from pushing their beliefs onto others. 

 

Unfortunately, the loudest, most aggressive forms of the religion — the ones that draw the most attention — are arrogant, intolerant, self-righteous, and hypocritical. And that's what many of us object to. What they need most is not salvation but humility.

[Henndigo]

On 11/8/2022 at 8:14 AM, Salemite said:

She is 16.  I agree.  This most likely will pass. If I had friends around me that had deconverted it probably would be helpful for me emotionally to chat about it so I process my fears and anxieties and then let them go (so thankful for this forum!!).   I need to speak my mind but not make fun of things or be disrespectful.  She is smart and I do think we have raised our kids to be critical thinkers. I want to be someone safe she can always talk to and I want her to know I will love her no matter what. Thanks for your response!  It is always so helpful to hear from others in similar circumstances.  

It might also be worth inviting this boy to dinner on a regular basis so that he can see a non-religious family in action and learn to be understanding of your perspectives if you are having your normal dinner time conversations as a family.  It would help you see what he is about from what he talks about and then you could make specific observations to your daughter, who may not have already picked up on red flags e.g “he has quite strong feelings about…..” or “I was impressed at how he spoke about his sisters….”.

If he is a book banning, surrendered wives type then he will probably rethink the relationship in time too, if he sees that you and your husband are both close to and involved your daughter.  On the other hand if he is very respectful of women, attentive to your daughter’s preferences regardless of the church’s position and open to new ideas, it would give you peace of mind.