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Putting An End3 To The Free Will Versus Predestination Debate


TheRedneckProfessor
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47 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:
  1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:
Surely you know what it is?

No sir I don't, thanks.

 

 

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This is a truthful and honest statement from you, Edgarcito?

 

That you don't know of any other option but to use faith to believe that free will or fate are true?

 

Or would it be more truthful and more honest of you to say that you refuse to use anything else but faith to believe these things?

 

That you do know that there is another option?

 

But you don't like it, can't accept it and won't use it?

 

 

Hmmm... ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

You asked me if I wanted to know the answer.  I replied I don't.  Thanks.

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I need to tweak my thoughts... please consider that a loose draft.  Thx.

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Let me see if I and list all the considerations

 

Not heard of Christianity and good manifestations

Not heard of Christianity and bad manifestations

Believe in God and good manifestations

Believe in God and bad manifestations

Not believe and good works

Not believe and bad works

Faith, belief, and good works

Faith, belief, and good and bad works

Faith, belief, and bad works

 

Feel free to add.

 

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Just from drawing it out on paper, it seems that if God were predestining a manifestation of himself through man, he created man in his image with free will and the ability to manifest.  If through Jesus, even if we are wrong in our choices, faith moves us to the predestined manifestation God was aiming for.  If we select no faith, right or wrong, it puts us in the God's predestined group that he didn't desire.  Two things.  Does God have free will?  And two, the Bible suggests that the predestination was before the world was created.  Kind of fits because Jesus says that he's given those that are manifested through him.

 

So if I have faith and true then I am manifesting God's desired goal /predestined through the Law.

If I have faith and am unable, then I am manifesting God's desired goal/ predestination through Christ.

 

If I am without faith and believe and manifest then I'm outside the desired goal/ predestination.

If I am without faith and don't believe and manifest, then I'm outside the desired goal/predestination.

 

Just thinking out loud again.  See what you think please.  All just reasoning/speculation.

 

Thanks.

 

 

If we select no faith, right or wrong, it puts us in the God's predestined group that he didn't desire. 

 

And who did the selecting of who is in the no-faith group?

 

And did any of the people in that group choose to have no faith?

 

And on what grounds should they be punished for having no faith?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

You asked me if I wanted to know the answer.  I replied I don't.  Thanks.

 

Ok, so you don't want to know the answer.

 

Therefore, I will not mention the eight-letter word that is the answer.

 

But my questions about faith still stand.  Unanswered.

 

 

Do you know what the instruments in your lab tell you by faith?

 

Do you know what your friends and family say to you by faith?

 

Do you know if you are hungry, thirsty or tired by faith?

 

Do you know how much is in your bank account by faith?

 

Do you know who FDR and JFK were by faith?

 

Do you know what the capital of the U.S. is by faith?

 

Do you know what colour your car is by faith?

 

Do you know who wrote Born In The USA by faith?

 

Do you know where the Alamo is by faith?

 

Do you know what a tornado is by faith?

 

 

So, do you know all of the above by faith?    Y / N ?

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4 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

 

If we select no faith, right or wrong, it puts us in the God's predestined group that he didn't desire. 

 

And who did the selecting of who is in the no-faith group?

 

And did any of the people in that group choose to have no faith?

 

And on what grounds should they be punished for having no faith?

 

 

Does God have free will?

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50 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Let me see if I and list all the considerations

 

Not heard of Christianity and good manifestations

Not heard of Christianity and bad manifestations

Believe in God and good manifestations

Believe in God and bad manifestations

Not believe and good works

Not believe and bad works

Faith, belief, and good works

Faith, belief, and good and bad works

Faith, belief, and bad works

 

Feel free to add.

 

 

There are only two considerations, Edgarcito.

 

You have free will.

 

Or you don't.

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Just now, Edgarcito said:

Does God have free will?

 

Please have the grace to answer my questions rather than answering questions with a another question.

 

 

If we select no faith, right or wrong, it puts us in the God's predestined group that he didn't desire. 

 

And who did the selecting of who is in the no-faith group?

 

And did any of the people in that group choose to have no faith?

 

And on what grounds should they be punished for having no faith?

 

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Please have the grace to answer my questions rather than answering questions with a another question.

 

 

If we select no faith, right or wrong, it puts us in the God's predestined group that he didn't desire. 

 

And who did the selecting of who is in the no-faith group?

 

And did any of the people in that group choose to have no faith?

 

And on what grounds should they be punished for having no faith?

 

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

It appears to me that if we are in God's image and God has free will, then he can certainly manifest free will to his manifestation, humanity.  It appears God grows a branch of humanity with free will....which would mean we would be doing the selecting ourselves.

 

The question in my mind is what has God predestined in Himself with humanity.

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2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

It appears to me that if we are in God's image and God has free will, then he can certainly manifest free will to his manifestation, humanity.  It appears God grows a branch of humanity with free will....which would mean we would be doing the selecting ourselves.

 

The question in my mind is what has God predestined in Himself with humanity.

 

Now please answer my three questions as they are written.

 

And who did the selecting of who is in the no-faith group?

 

And did any of the people in that group choose to have no faith?

 

And on what grounds should they be punished for having no faith?

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3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Now please answer my three questions as they are written.

 

And who did the selecting of who is in the no-faith group?

 

And did any of the people in that group choose to have no faith?

 

And on what grounds should they be punished for having no faith?

(I'm not getting into this loop with you Walter).  Free will would be given to humanity within God.  I.e. God allows free will within the manifestation humanity for his purpose.  Humanity does the selecting for a predestined goal God has set.  Again, all just ideas/conjecture.  Thanks

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6 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

(I'm not getting into this loop with you Walter).  Free will would be given to humanity within God.  I.e. God allows free will within the manifestation humanity for his purpose.  Humanity does the selecting for a predestined goal God has set.  Again, all just ideas/conjecture.  Thanks

 

How can humanity select something that god had already predestined?

 

When were the selections made?

 

In real time by humans?

 

Or before time began, by god?

 

 

(And if you don't want to get into a loop Ed, try answering my questions as they written.  There are four here.  So, four answers please.)

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16 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

How can humanity select something that god had already predestined?

 

When were the selections made?

 

In real time by humans?

 

Or before time began, by god?

 

 

(And if you don't want to get into a loop Ed, try answering my questions as they written.  There are four here.  So, four answers please.)

The answers are dependent upon what is predestined.  The manifestation itself in God could be what was predestined, but not the individual components themselves.  

 

For example, the predestined manifestation is Love through humanity.  The predestined manifestation is love, the means are humanity via free will.....humanity in the image of God.  So man has the same free will to choose Love or not.  Seems reasonable that he has that ability....

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3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

The answers are dependent upon what is predestined.  The manifestation itself in God could be what was predestined, but not the individual components themselves.  

 

For example, the predestined manifestation is Love through humanity.  The predestined manifestation is love, the means are humanity via free will.....humanity in the image of God.  So man has the same free will to choose Love or not.  Seems reasonable that he has that ability....

 

All right then, here is how the bible says salvation works.

 

Romans 8 : 28 - 30.

 

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 

30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 

 

God foreknows (knows in advance) those whom he will call, according to HIS purpose.

 

NOT according to their choice or selection. 

 

They cannot choose or select because they don't exist yet.

 

Having known in advance whom he will call god then predestines them to be called.  

 

These people did not decide/choose/select this for themselves in real time. 

 

The moment of their calling was decided for them by god, according to his purpose, before they lived.

 

The calling, justification and glorification of the saved was foreknown and predestined by god according to HIS purpose.

 

NOT according to anything anyone does within their own lifespan.

 

 

 

That's why Isaac and Rebekah's twins,  Jacob and Esau had their fates decided for them before they were born and before they had done anything, good or bad.

 

Romans 9 : 10 - 13.   (Originally, Genesis chapters 25 to 27.)

 

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 

12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

 

See that, Ed?

 

Their fates were decided by HIM WHO CALLS.

 

Not by any decision or selection they would make after they were born.

 

 

 

It's there in b & w Edgarcito.

 

 

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Edgarcito,

 

If you want it directly from god's mouth and not from one of his apostles, try these two passages, from different ends of the bible.

 

 

Exodus 33 :  18 - 20.

 

18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 

20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

 

 

Why doesn't god say that he will have mercy and compassion on whoever chooses to love him?

 

Because it is god's choice who will receive mercy and nobody else's.

 

 

 

Acts 1 :  4 - 8  (Jesus speaks to his disciples before he ascends into heaven.)

 

4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 

5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

 

 

 

The times and dates of god's will and purpose are ordained and set by him.

 

Human decisions and choices cannot and do not change what he has set down to happen.

 

 

Do you see it now?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Edgarcito,

 

If you want it directly from god's mouth and not from one of his apostles, try these two passages, from different ends of the bible.

 

 

Exodus 33 :  18 - 20.

 

18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 

20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

 

 

Why doesn't god say that he will have mercy and compassion on whoever chooses to love him?

 

Because it is god's choice who will receive mercy and nobody else's.

 

 

 

Acts 1 :  4 - 8  (Jesus speaks to his disciples before he ascends into heaven.)

 

4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 

5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

 

 

 

The times and dates of god's will and purpose are ordained and set by him.

 

Human decisions and choices cannot and do not change what he has set down to happen.

 

 

Do you see it now?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do think there is a lot more scripture in support of predestination. I wasn't really a predestination Christian. But I did notice the scriptures. It fits more with other godly events in the bible. Like Adam and Eve. 

 

But the question I have to ask is. If God predestined everything. Then why did he get so mad when people turned against him. After all. It had to be by his design right? Did he predestine everything just so he could punish people by torture (hell) or invasion (Babylonia captivity) or flood. Etc?

 

DB

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5 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

I do think there is a lot more scripture in support of predestination. I wasn't really a predestination Christian. But I did notice the scriptures. It fits more with other godly events in the bible. Like Adam and Eve. 

 

But the question I have to ask is. If God predestined everything. Then why did he get so mad when people turned against him. After all. It had to be by his design right? Did he predestine everything just so he could punish people by torture (hell) or invasion (Babylonia captivity) or flood. Etc?

 

DB

This would fit with other mythologies in the fact that if Godly predestination is true then we are all just pawns in God's plan. He can do as he will with us. And it doesn't matter how hard we pray or visa versa How much we disbelieve. If we are predestined we have no choice. God according to the Bible can control the hearts of man. 

 

DB

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29 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

This would fit with other mythologies in the fact that if Godly predestination is true then we are all just pawns in God's plan. He can do as he will with us. And it doesn't matter how hard we pray or visa versa How much we disbelieve. If we are predestined we have no choice. God according to the Bible can control the hearts of man. 

 

DB

 

The bible agrees with you, DB.

 

Romans 9 : 16 - 19

 

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 

20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 

23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 

24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

 

 

Who goes to heaven and who goes to hell does not depend on human desire or effort.

 

God has mercy on whom HE chooses to have mercy.  Human choice does not come into the equation.

 

He can do what he wants with us, the pots he has fashioned for different purposes.

 

Some people will be objects of wrath, prepared for destruction, regardless of anything they choose.

 

Others will be objects of god's mercy, prepared IN ADVANCE for glory, regardless of their choices.

 

 

How can human choice matter if god has prepared people's destiny IN ADVANCE?

 

How can human choice undo what god has ordained to happen IN ADVANCE?

 

How can there be free will if god has made all the decisions IN ADVANCE?

 

 

 

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There's plenty more, DB.

 

 

Ephesians 1 : 3 & 4.

 

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

4 In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

 

 

Thessalonians 2 : 13

 

 “But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.” 

 

 

John 15 : 16

 

You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”

 

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

How can human choice matter if god has prepared people's destiny IN ADVANCE?

 

How can human choice undo what god has ordained to happen IN ADVANCE?

 

How can there be free will if god has made all the decisions IN ADVANCE?

 

There can't be free will in light of this.

 

But most christians, Ed included and myself when I was Christian, choose to ignore this clinging to verses like John 3:16. 

 

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have have everlasting life." 

 

Or 

 

2 Peter 3

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

I guess free will is more comfortable than predestination. 

 

There is so much more that talks about predestination. And they both, absolutely, can not be true. 

 

I guess one stance that could be taken (from a Christian perspective) is that predestination is true. But we are not God and therefore do not know who is chosen and who is not. So we would have to treat everyone as if they did have free will. 

 

But again, what does that say about the Christian God? 

 

What kind of God PREDESTINES such a multitude of people to be tortured due to the sin of Adam?

 

What kind of God makes "promises" that in no way can be kept if God has already PREDESTINED a set out come? And won't change his mind on that outcome?

 

What kind of God makes people feel that they do have free will, when in fact there is no hope for a great majority of the earths population? 

 

Why worship a God that really only considers you a pawn in his game of chess against the devil I would assume. 

 

Thats really not a God I would want to worship anyway. How is that a God of "love"? 

 

But from our ExChristian perspective we can see that all of these contradictions are there as a result of differing beliefs about God through the years. That is really the most common sense answer. 

 

 

DB

 

 

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7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Free will would be given to humanity within God.  I.e. God allows free will within the manifestation humanity for his purpose.  Humanity does the selecting for a predestined goal God has set.  Again, all just ideas/conjecture.

If you must use "ideas/conjecture" without any scriptural basis to come to a conclusion about what you believe, then why tie yourself to Christianity at all?  If you are going to follow your personal hunches about how to interpret the bible, why not expand your horizons and try doing the same thing with other ancient spiritual literature?  Why chain yourself to the bible?

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One problem at which Walt has already hinted, @Edgarcito, is the problem of god's supposed omniscience.  In your scenario, we would have to question whether or not god knew beforehand (from before the foundations of the earth) who all would end up in which group.  If so, then we are not, and never were, free to choose which group into which we are eventually categorized.  Does god grant autonomy at the expense of his own omniscience?  If so, then god cannot truly be omniscient.  The same problem exists in consideration of god's supposed omnipotence.  Can god move a person from one group to another?  If so, then we are not; and never were, free to choose our groupings.  We simply end up in whatever group god puts us into.  Or, again, does god grant autonomy at the expense of his own omnipotence?  Meaning god cannot truly be omnipotent.  Despite your best efforts, we are still stuck with the same paradox that we've been stuck with for the past several threads in this forum.  god's foreknowledge and unlimited ability result in him necessarily being complicit in evil, which makes him evil by extension.  Irrespective of whatever good intentions he may have overall, in the minutiae and practicality of his plan, god is revealed as being evil; and neither god's omniscience nor his omnipotence will allow for us to have genuine and morally significant free will.

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1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

One problem at which Walt has already hinted, @Edgarcito, is the problem of god's supposed omniscience.  In your scenario, we would have to question whether or not god knew beforehand (from before the foundations of the earth) who all would end up in which group.  If so, then we are not, and never were, free to choose which group into which we are eventually categorized.  Does god grant autonomy at the expense of his own omniscience?  If so, then god cannot truly be omniscient.  The same problem exists in consideration of god's supposed omnipotence.  Can god move a person from one group to another?  If so, then we are not; and never were, free to choose our groupings.  We simply end up in whatever group god puts us into.  Or, again, does god grant autonomy at the expense of his own omnipotence?  Meaning god cannot truly be omnipotent.  Despite your best efforts, we are still stuck with the same paradox that we've been stuck with for the past several threads in this forum.  god's foreknowledge and unlimited ability result in him necessarily being complicit in evil, which makes him evil by extension.  Irrespective of whatever good intentions he may have overall, in the minutiae and practicality of his plan, god is revealed as being evil; and neither god's omniscience nor his omnipotence will allow for us to have genuine and morally significant free will.

 

A word about minutiae.

 

The generally accepted, orthodox Christian view of god's morality is that he is, always has been and always will be good.  That he cannot do anything but good, cannot plan anything but good and cannot have any motive except to do what is good.  That in no way can he overlook any detail, no matter how small, if it leads to any outcome other than good.  That he cannot be fooled, tricked or trapped into doing evil under any circumstances.  That god is perfectly good.

 

But there's something about perfection that is often overlooked.

 

Even the smallest defect changes a perfect thing to an imperfect one.  Perfection is not a matter of degree.  It either is or it isn't, perfect.  There's no such thing as 99.999% perfect.  There's no such thing as almost perfect.  Almost perfect things are, by definition, imperfect.  Things that are 99.999% perfect are, by definition, imperfect.  Only total and absolute, 100% perfection is perfect.

 

Ok, that all sounds like an unnecessary over-explanation of what is blindingly obvious.   But wait!

 

What does this definition of god's perfect goodness mean when we read the bible?  It means that there cannot be even one example in the whole of scripture where god acts with anything less than total and absolute, 100% perfect goodness.  Not even one.  Just one counter-example, where god does not act with perfect goodness and the whole show's over.  That will be evidence that he is imperfect.  That he is not not good at all times to all people, no matter what.  That he does evil.

 

If such an example were found, what are a Christian's options?

 

1.  Pretend that it doesn't exist and never talk about it.  (If you can do this and live with yourself, perhaps you should question your honesty and integrity?)

2. Call the veracity of the bible passage in question, into question.  (If you can do this, then why do you place any trust in anything it says?  Cherry-picking, much?)

3. Insist that such matters are beyond human understanding.  (Human understanding is all you have, so doing this means giving up and choosing ignorance.)

4. Assert that evil deeds performed by god are fact a good ones.  (If you can do this, perhaps you should check to see if your moral compass is broken?)

 

All of the above are in some degree lies that Christians tell themselves so that they don't have to face up to what the bible clearly says about god being evil. So, the minutiae of each and every word, verse, passage, chapter and book in the bible, matters.  If even one of them shows god to be evil or to have done evil, then he is not the perfectly good person that he claims to be.  And therefore, he will have lied.  

 

The bible tells us that god has pre-decided who shall have bliss in heaven and who shall have torment in hell IN ADVANCE of them being born.

 

Surely you, the truth-loving, good-seeking Christian can see, in your heart of hearts, that for god to do this is... evil? 

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

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5 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

What does this definition of god's perfect goodness mean when we read the bible?  It means that there cannot be even one example in the whole of scripture where god acts with anything less than total and absolute, 100% perfect goodness.  Not even one.  Just one counter-example, where god does not act with perfect goodness and the whole show's over.  That will be evidence that he is imperfect.  That he is not not good at all times to all people, no matter what.  That he does evil.

 

This may be considered splitting hairs walter. But there is a scripture that says one of the things God has done is evil. We have already shown in theast thread that God set a time limit on man's life in Genesis chapter 6. 

 

In Ecclesiastes 9 dying is considered an Evil that will befall all men. It wasn't considered a good thing. This book is believed to have been written by Solomon traditionally. A man that was given the wisdom of God himself. 

 

Ecclesisastes 9

 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.

2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

 

It can be argued that death passed upon all men through Adam. And thats true. But traditionally that is was considered a spiritual death. The death that sin creates. Hell. 

 

God set the number for man's physical life in the bible. 

 

Like I said. That could be considered splitting hairs. But I think we can all agree that the old testament God physically kills people repeatedly. Opening up the ground and swallowing people whole. Killing the first born sons in Egypt. Causing foreign invaders to fall on his own people killing many. Instructing his own armies to kill not only fighting men but the women and children as well.

 

By the hand of God in the old testament countless people are killed. 

 

If one believes the word of God then they have to agree that yes dying is an Evil thing.

 

They also have to agree that God set physical death upon man.

 

And also that God has killed people through others and by his own hand. 

 

In conclusion acording to God's word, we have to accept that God is Evil. 

 

DB

 

 

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