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Putting An End3 To The Free Will Versus Predestination Debate


TheRedneckProfessor
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1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

 

In conclusion acording to God's word, we have to accept that God is Evil. 

 

 

I thought it had been established that Ed doesn't care what the bible says. Not sure why people keep quoting scripture at him. Seems to me like he has his own version of Christianity that lives outside of the bible. 

 

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2 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

This may be considered splitting hairs walter. But there is a scripture that says one of the things God has done is evil. We have already shown in theast thread that God set a time limit on man's life in Genesis chapter 6. 

 

In Ecclesiastes 9 dying is considered an Evil that will befall all men. It wasn't considered a good thing. This book is believed to have been written by Solomon traditionally. A man that was given the wisdom of God himself. 

 

Ecclesisastes 9

 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.

2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

 

It can be argued that death passed upon all men through Adam. And thats true. But traditionally that is was considered a spiritual death. The death that sin creates. Hell. 

 

God set the number for man's physical life in the bible. 

 

Like I said. That could be considered splitting hairs. But I think we can all agree that the old testament God physically kills people repeatedly. Opening up the ground and swallowing people whole. Killing the first born sons in Egypt. Causing foreign invaders to fall on his own people killing many. Instructing his own armies to kill not only fighting men but the women and children as well.

 

By the hand of God in the old testament countless people are killed. 

 

If one believes the word of God then they have to agree that yes dying is an Evil thing.

 

They also have to agree that God set physical death upon man.

 

And also that God has killed people through others and by his own hand. 

 

In conclusion acording to God's word, we have to accept that God is Evil. 

 

DB

 

 

 

No, this isn't splitting hairs, DB.  You raise points that need to be addressed.  Let me see if I can do so.

 

1.

If one believes the word of God then they have to agree that yes dying is an Evil thing.

Yes, in the bible all death is an evil.  But according to scripture god was not responsible for death coming into the world and affecting all of creation.  Adam was.  Therefore, god is blameless when it comes to the death of all living things.  He was not responsible for that particular evil.

 

(But seeing as god WAS responsible for allowing the serpent to harm Adam and Eve and by extension, the whole of creation - there's an excellent case to be made that god WAS responsible for all of the sin, decay, death and evil in the world.)

 

2.

They also have to agree that God set physical death upon man.

No. The key to understanding why all living things die physically can be found in Romans 8 : 18 - 25.

 

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 

19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 

23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 

24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 

25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

 

Verses 21 and 22 tell us that the whole of creation is in bondage to decay.  It is this decay that ultimately leads to the physical death of all living things; men, animals and plants.  So, what event lead to this universal bondage to decay?  God setting physical death upon man?  No.  The scriptural answer is that once again it was Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit that ruined everything.  If we look at Genesis we can see how this happened.

 

Genesis 1 : 26 

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

 

Here god makes man (Adam) the ruler of the entire natural world.  But with rulership comes responsibility.  So, when Adam sinned it was not only his body and his spirit that suffered.  Everything that he was responsible for and ruled over suffered too.  Adam died spiritually and eventually physically.  Animals and plants, not being made in god's image and having no animating spirit could not die spiritually to god as Adam did.  But they could still die as the result of the decay that came as a result of his sin.  

 

And this explains why god setting a limit to man's life expectancy in Genesis 6 was not an evil deed, per se.  It was more of a prophecy, based upon the decay that was already affecting all life.  Decay that came via Adam, not god.  The immense lifespans seen before the Flood rapidly decreased afterwards.  See Genesis 11 : 10 - 26, the account of Shem's family line.  So, Adam was the cause and first example of all physical death and therefore blame for the existence of physical death cannot be laid at god's door.  Can god be blamed for shortening man's lifespan?  Yes.  Was this an evil act?  Perhaps.

 

(Once again, since god WAS responsible for the care and protection of his children, allowing harm and death to come to them WAS evil.)

 

 

 3.

And also that God has killed people through others and by his own hand. 

Agreed.  But god's actions fall under what is explained in Romans 9 : 16 - 24.  All of the people killed by god in the bible were objects of his wrath, prepared in advance by him for destruction.  And since the pot has no right to complain to the potter about how it is to be used, so all of these people slain by god have no right of appeal or complaint about what he has ordained for them.  End of.

 

Here DB, there is no doubt or equivocation in my mind.  God is evil to do this.  Evil.

 

 

4.

In conclusion according to God's word, we have to accept that God is Evil. 

Agreed.  

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

I thought it had been established that Ed doesn't care what the bible says. Not sure why people keep quoting scripture at him. Seems to me like he has his own version of Christianity that lives outside of the bible. 

 

 

Quite right, midniterider.

 

Edgarcito doesn't seem to care what certain parts of the bible say.  The parts that he can't accept, like predestination and god doing evil, that he won't be drawn into a honest discussion about.  The parts that he probably prefers didn't exist.  The parts that induce cognitive dissonance in him.  The parts that he has to avoid thinking too deeply about.  

 

But other parts he cares very much about.  Especially those parts that he interprets as supporting his un-biblical theory of generational sin.  And other parts that he interprets as somehow 'connecting' with and being supported by science.  Oh and lets not forget the parts that promise him eternal bliss.  I'm sure that those safe, comforting and reassuring parts of the bible are very important to him.

 

But please don't think that DB, the Prof and I are still quoting scripture at him. Edgarcito made it quite clear that he doesn't want to hear certain things from me, that he doesn't want to take advantage of my understanding of the bible and that there are questions that he simply won't answer.

 

That's fine.

 

So, DB, the Prof and I are currently discussing certain points in this thread because we are interested in doing so.  If the other members and the lurkers benefit from our discussions, that's good.  But Ed has turned away and no longer appears to be playing any part in these proceedings.  That's his choice and I respect it.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

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25 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

I thought it had been established that Ed doesn't care what the bible says. Not sure why people keep quoting scripture at him. Seems to me like he has his own version of Christianity that lives outside of the bible. 

 

Perhaps Ed isn't actually the intended target. 

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10 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Perhaps Ed isn't actually the intended target. 

 

Cue: The Lurkers. 

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57 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

No, this isn't splitting hairs, DB.  You raise points that need to be addressed.  Let me see if I can do so.

 

1.

If one believes the word of God then they have to agree that yes dying is an Evil thing.

Yes, in the bible all death is an evil.  But according to scripture god was not responsible for death coming into the world and affecting all of creation.  Adam was.  Therefore, god is blameless when it comes to the death of all living things.  He was not responsible for that particular evil.

 

 

2.

They also have to agree that God set physical death upon man.

No. The key to understanding why all living things die physically can be found in Romans 8 : 18 - 25.

 

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 

19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 

23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 

24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 

25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

 

Verses 21 and 22 tell us that the whole of creation is in bondage to decay.  It is this decay that ultimately leads to the physical death of all living things; men, animals and plants.  So, what event lead to this universal bondage to decay?  God setting physical death upon man?  No.  The scriptural answer is that once again it was Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit that ruined everything.  If we look at Genesis we can see how this happened.

 

Genesis 1 : 26 

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

 

Here god makes man (Adam) the ruler of the entire natural world.  But with rulership comes responsibility.  So, when Adam sinned it was not only his body and his spirit that suffered.  Everything that he was responsible for and ruled over suffered too.  Adam died spiritually and eventually physically.  Animals and plants, not being made in god's image and having no animating spirit could not die spiritually to god as Adam did.  But they could still die as the result of the decay that came as a result of his sin.  

 

And this explains why god setting a limit to man's life expectancy in Genesis 6 was not an evil deed, per se.  It was more of a prophecy, based upon the decay that was already affecting all life.  Decay that came via Adam, not god.  The immense lifespans seen before the Flood rapidly decreased afterwards.  See Genesis 11 : 10 - 26, the account of Shem's family line.  So, Adam was the cause and first example of all physical death and therefore blame for the existence of physical death cannot be laid at god's door.  Can god be blamed for shortening man's lifespan?  Yes.  Was this an evil act?  Perhaps.

 

 

 3.

And also that God has killed people through others and by his own hand. 

Agreed.  But god's actions fall under what is explained in Romans 9 : 16 - 24.  All of the people killed by god in the bible were objects of his wrath, prepared in advance by him for destruction.  And since the pot has no right to complain to the potter about how it is to be used, so all of these people slain by god have no right of appeal or complaint about what he has ordained for them.  End of.

 

Here DB, there is no doubt or equivocation in my mind.  God is evil to do this.  Evil.

 

 

4.

In conclusion according to God's word, we have to accept that God is Evil. 

Agreed.  

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

Good argument Walter,

 

And I think this subject deserves a little attention. I can't quite agree with you just yet. This scripture has come up several times in our discussions lately. And when I was a Christian I would certainly agree whole heartedly that both spiritual death and physical death passed to man through Adam. 

 

But after taking another extensive look at Genesis like we have lately I'm seeing it differently. 

 

Let's go back to Genesis 2 real quick.

 

Genesis 2

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

God says here that in that day. What day? The day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 

 

Hebrews 6 says this:

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

 

It is impossible for God to lie. We know that the day Adam ate the fruit. He did not physically die. So what happened? He died eternally. His soul died because of sin. 

 

Romans 5

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

It does say here that death entered the world by sin through Adam. But what death? In verse 18 it says by the offense of one judgement came upon all men unto condemnation. In verse 21 it says sin reigned unto death and the that grace might reign through righteousness unto eternal life. 

 

Its not talking about physical death. Or physical life. Its talking about eternal death and eternal life. 

 

So what about physical death? 

 

Hebrews 9:27

 

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

 

Here like in ecclesiastes. No one is going to escape physical death. It is an appointment. And then it is the Judgement. And if found guilty during judgement one suffers the second death. Which is the death caused by the sin of Adam. 

 

Who is the only one with ultimate cosmic powers that could make that appointment in our lives?

 

God

 

And when did he do that?

 

Genesis ch 6:3 well after the fall.

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

 

I no longer think the bible says physical and eternal death came to us through Adam. From my outside perspective now it looks like eternal death came through Adam. And physical death was appointed in genesis chapter 6 because he was tired of dealing with all those long living humans. 

 

Which he wouldn't have been able to do if we had eaten of the tree of life. 

 

And if this is the case then not only is God evil for appointing death which according to Ecclesiastes is evil. But he is also evil for denying man the tree of life which would have prevented physical death. 

 

Either way. We agree. God is Evil. 

 

DB

 

 

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2 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

I thought it had been established that Ed doesn't care what the bible says. Not sure why people keep quoting scripture at him. Seems to me like he has his own version of Christianity that lives outside of the bible. 

 

 

I'm not even directing anything at Ed anymore. I'm frustrated with extra biblical/non-biblical assertions with zero foundation. Questions for answers. And dodging, weaving, with the occasional Segway. 

 

But the topics do get interesting. I've been enjoying cracking open the ole bible knowledge. 

 

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4 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

In conclusion according to God's word, we have to accept that God is Evil. 

Agreed.  

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

Hey Walter and @TheRedneckProfessor,

 

I'm sitting here thinking about our various interpretations of the Bible that we've been using lately and I can't help but smile and chuckle. 

 

We've had several Christians come here with their interpretations trying to lead us back to the Lord. Now we have various interpretations of the same bible that either disprove God or show him in a bad light. 

 

It is amazing to me the various directions that can be proved out in his "Holy" book. How is this anything other than confusion? Yet in the same book we read that God is not the author of such confusion.

 

But remind me again. Who is credited at being the true author of the Bible as a whole? 

 

Yeah 🤣 

 

DB

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On 11/10/2022 at 8:55 AM, Edgarcito said:

I'll look for free will verses today.  Thx.

Did you find any?

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@walterpthefirst @TheRedneckProfessor @Edgarcito

(Don't worry Ed, I don't expect a reply. I only tagged you because you have been in all the other discussions)

 

Most of our recent threads have wondered back to the Evil that bible God perpetrates and allows to happen in this world. This isn't a popular view today. But was apparently accepted in old testament times. 

 

Here is a Bible verse you will probably never here preached on in church. 

 

Isaiah 47

5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

This scripture kinda puts the nail in the coffin about whether or not God is Evil. Here this is God himself speaking through a prophet that no one in the Christian church would call a false prophet. Its some of his prophecies that Christians use to build the story of the Messiah. 

 

Isaiah 9

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

 

Isaiah 52

13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

 

Isaiah 53

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

Here is a link to many more of Isaiah prophecies that are used to build the foundation for the narrative of Jesus. If I listed them all this would be a very boring read. 

 

https://www.preceptaustin.org/messianic-prophecies-in-isaiah

 

But there is one chapter that they don't even crack open. Chapter 47. This chapter makes for an uncomfortable situation. How can the All Loving God that Jesus and the Apostles talk about be capable of evil? How can he create evil? So they just Segway around that section and keep on moving. 

 

The old testament God was believed to be capable of evil. So to the more ancient people that were writing these books. It was no big deal. God was a God that was meant to be feared, revered, and respected no matter what he did. Because he was God and they were just lowly humans. Who were they to question gods actions. This was the God they believed made volcanoes erupt spewing lava from the bowels of the earth. This was the God that made the tempest come in and destroy whole villages. But this was also the God that brought rain for their crops and who they believed would conquer their enemies. 

 

So who were they to question God's actions?

 

But to people today with the modern Christian view of God, all these thoughts are horrible. 

 

I was just explaining some of our recent posts to my son. And told him about this scripture in Isaiah 47. That God creates evil. He asked me: "Well then what does the devil do"? I laughed and replied, "He gets blamed for it". 🤣 🤣 🤣 

 

Its funny but its true. 

 

God predestined everything

The fall of man in the garden

The punishment for sin (hell)

The famines

The invasions

The rape of innocent children

The death of Pharaoh's son and a multitude of other children

The mass slaughter of whole civilization

Plagues

Wars

Slavery

Anything and everything that could be considered evil. God created.

 

God did all of it. He created all of that evil. He even says it himself in Isaiah. But who gets the blame?

 

Satan, That old Devil, the serpent, Beelzebub, the beast. 

 

Dark Bishop

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16 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Perhaps Ed isn't actually the intended target. 

Not sure how happy I'd get with myself.  Me participating in your thread for mental exercise for a solution no one to date has solved.... looks like more ego from here.  "Oh look, Ed from west Texas couldn't solve free will vs. predestination either".  Let me brag that I've done something.    

 

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1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Not sure how happy I'd get with myself.  Me participating in your thread for mental exercise for a solution no one to date has solved.... looks like more ego from here.  "Oh look, Ed from west Texas couldn't solve free will vs. predestination either".  Let me brag that I've done something.    

 

Ed your really misrepresenting what is going on here. Its not that we have really done anything. Its that you have done nothing. 

 

Stand up for what you believe and find the scriptures to support what you say. Whether we counter it or not. Is that not why your here? To fight for God as a Christian? 

 

DB

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5 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Did you find any?

Yes, if everything is God breathed, then it's His free will certainly.....which by definition makes ours free, does it not?

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1 minute ago, DarkBishop said:

Ed your really misrepresenting what is going on here. Its not that we have really done anything. Its that you have done nothing. 

 

Stand up for what you believe and find the scriptures to support what you say. Whether we counter it or not. Is that not why your here? To fight for God as a Christian? 

 

DB

I think you just did that for me in your last post....

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4 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Ed your really misrepresenting what is going on here. Its not that we have really done anything. Its that you have done nothing. 

 

Stand up for what you believe and find the scriptures to support what you say. Whether we counter it or not. Is that not why your here? To fight for God as a Christian? 

 

DB

*you're

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33 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Yes, if everything is God breathed, then it's His free will certainly.....which by definition makes ours free, does it not?

No.  It does not.

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15 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No.  It does not.

lol, whatever

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52 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Yes, if everything is God breathed, then it's His free will certainly.....which by definition makes ours free, does it not?

 

No.

 

If it's god's will, then it's not ours.  So, predestination.

 

If it's not god's will, then it's our free will.  So, not predestination.

 

The two are mutually exclusive.

 

 

If god decides before you are born, then you have no free will in the matter.

 

If you decide, while you live, then god has not predestined it.

 

The two are mutually exclusive.

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14 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Good argument Walter,

 

And I think this subject deserves a little attention. I can't quite agree with you just yet. This scripture has come up several times in our discussions lately. And when I was a Christian I would certainly agree whole heartedly that both spiritual death and physical death passed to man through Adam. 

 

But after taking another extensive look at Genesis like we have lately I'm seeing it differently. 

 

Let's go back to Genesis 2 real quick.

 

Genesis 2

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

God says here that in that day. What day? The day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 

 

Hebrews 6 says this:

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

 

It is impossible for God to lie. We know that the day Adam ate the fruit. He did not physically die. So what happened? He died eternally. His soul died because of sin. 

 

Romans 5

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

It does say here that death entered the world by sin through Adam. But what death? In verse 18 it says by the offense of one judgement came upon all men unto condemnation. In verse 21 it says sin reigned unto death and the that grace might reign through righteousness unto eternal life. 

 

Its not talking about physical death. Or physical life. Its talking about eternal death and eternal life. 

 

So what about physical death? 

 

Hebrews 9:27

 

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

 

Here like in ecclesiastes. No one is going to escape physical death. It is an appointment. And then it is the Judgement. And if found guilty during judgement one suffers the second death. Which is the death caused by the sin of Adam. 

 

Who is the only one with ultimate cosmic powers that could make that appointment in our lives?

 

God

 

And when did he do that?

 

Genesis ch 6:3 well after the fall.

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

 

I no longer think the bible says physical and eternal death came to us through Adam. From my outside perspective now it looks like eternal death came through Adam. And physical death was appointed in genesis chapter 6 because he was tired of dealing with all those long living humans. 

 

Which he wouldn't have been able to do if we had eaten of the tree of life. 

 

And if this is the case then not only is God evil for appointing death which according to Ecclesiastes is evil. But he is also evil for denying man the tree of life which would have prevented physical death. 

 

Either way. We agree. God is Evil. 

 

DB

 

 

 

Some good points, DB.

 

But there are still some awkward questions.

 

Who does scripture say brought decay into creation?  

 

How can it be god if everything he made was 'very good'?

 

Btw, I don't think the answers to these change what we agree.

 

God is still evil.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I think you just did that for me in your last post....

You frustrate me Ed. I think it is because I still have a mind set that a Christian is supposed to conform to a certain mold that is outlined in the bible. 

 

When I see the way you act sometimes in this forum. Or I see that you obviously know very little about the bible. Or maybe you do know a lot about the bible but just don't use it, as a form of trolling us. For me a "True believer" should be well studied. Supporting everything he believes with scripture he/she has found that has lead them to a conclusion. Also for me, a Christian is supposed to act according to the mold that Christ formed in himself. When I was a Christian this is the very thing I strove for. 

 

After having many years of an indoctrinated mind set, my knee jerk reaction when I see someone like you is to lay out what happens the such a Christian biblically. I have to quill that part of me because I no longer believe that. And I don't want anyone to have to live that way. I talked to RNP about starting a thread just for that. But my fear is that you or someone else lurking would see that. And believe that is what their life needs to be like. So I haven't. 

 

My ExChristian mind is truly glad that you are able to live your life as you see fit. Even if it doesn't align with my former beliefs. 

 

You make something rise up in me that I hate now. I hate that I preached it. I hate that I believed it. I hate that I gave up a big chunk of my life trying to live it. 

 

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

*you're

 

Really Ed? Grammar policing now? My posts are filled with bad grammar and typos. Have fun.

 

DB

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3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Some good points, DB.

 

But there are still some awkward questions.

 

Who does scripture say brought decay into creation?  

 

How can it be god if everything he made was 'very good'?

 

Btw, I don't think the answers to these change what we agree.

 

God is still evil.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

Honestly it probably says both walter. Thats the great thing about the bible 🤣 something for everyone. 

 

DB

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10 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

You frustrate me Ed. I think it is because I still have a mind set that a Christian is supposed to conform to a certain mold that is outlined in the bible. 

 

When I see the way you act sometimes in this forum. Or I see that you obviously know very little about the bible. Or maybe you do know a lot about the bible but just don't use it, as a form of trolling us. For me a "True believer" should be well studied. Supporting everything he believes with scripture he/she has found that has lead them to a conclusion. Also for me, a Christian is supposed to act according to the mold that Christ formed in himself. When I was a Christian this is the very thing I strove for. 

 

After having many years of an indoctrinated mind set, my knee jerk reaction when I see someone like you is to lay out what happens the such a Christian biblically. I have to quill that part of me because I no longer believe that. And I don't want anyone to have to live that way. I talked to RNP about starting a thread just for that. But my fear is that you or someone else lurking would see that. And believe that is what their life needs to be like. So I haven't. 

 

My ExChristian mind is truly glad that you are able to live your life as you see fit. Even if it doesn't align with my former beliefs. 

 

You make something rise up in me that I hate now. I hate that I preached it. I hate that I believed it. I hate that I gave up a big chunk of my life trying to live it. 

 

 

Really Ed? Grammar policing now? My posts are filled with bad grammar and typos. Have fun.

 

DB

That's ok, I hate that I trusted someone that thought they were right with their intellectualism.  Works both ways.

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5 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Honestly it probably says both walter. Thats the great thing about the bible 🤣 something for everyone. 

 

DB

 

Meh...

 

I woke up from a nap this afternoon and an idea came to me about how I could resolve the predestination vs free will problem in scripture, DB.

 

Using my usual method of trying to reconcile what one passage says with another, I might be able to do this.

 

But squarely in favour of predestination.

 

Showing that all mentions of free will are just an effect of bible writers not understanding god's omniscience properly. 

 

I'll get back to on this...  got some research to do.

 

😉

 

Walter.

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1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

That's ok, I hate that I trusted someone that thought they were right with their intellectualism.  Works both ways.

 

And yet that thing which you hate (intellectualism) enabled me to see what you couldn't see with faith, Ed.

 

 

My first impression is this is impressive insight. Seemingly the content in Genesis is there for a reason. I don't know that I've heard of this reasoning over the years. I wish you would share these more betting you have many to offer. Thx.

 

 

So, do you want to retract your praise for me?

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33 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

No.

 

If it's god's will, then it's not ours.  So, predestination.

 

If it's not god's will, then it's our free will.  So, not predestination.

 

The two are mutually exclusive.

 

 

If god decides before you are born, then you have no free will in the matter.

 

If you decide, while you live, then god has not predestined it.

 

The two are mutually exclusive.

It's never "not God's" according to the stance here.  So the appropriate response according to predestination.

 

If it's God's will, then it's our will.

If it's not God's will, then it's our will.

 

But since it's all God's free will, then it's our free will.  

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