Putting An End3 To The Free Will Versus Predestination Debate

[walterpthefirst]

4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

It's never "not God's" according to the stance here.  So the appropriate response according to predestination.

 

If it's God's will, then it's our will

If it's not God's will, then it's our will.

 

But since it's all God's free will, then it's our free will.  

 

No.

 

That's wrong.

 

Was it your will to hate Esau before he was born?   

 

Was it your will to destroy the world in the Flood?

 

Was it your will to exile the Israelites in Babylon?

 

No to all of the above.

 

You didn't exist then, Edgarcito.

 

So your will and god's will are two separate things.

 

 

Get it now?

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

36 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Showing that all mentions of free will are just an effect of bible writers not understanding god's omniscience properly

 

Also the scriptures that are thought to represent free will could "actually mean" something else. Or they were "actually" be talking about this or that. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

53 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

But there are still some awkward questions.

 

Who does scripture say brought decay into creation?  

 

How can it be god if everything he made was 'very good'?

I'll look into these questions and see if I can reconcile them with my new view on physical death. Thank you walter. 

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

No.

 

That's wrong.

 

Was it your will to hate Esau before he was born?   

 

Was it your will to destroy the world in the Flood?

 

Was it your will to exile the Israelites in Babylon?

 

No to all of the above.

 

You didn't exist then, Edgarcito.

 

So your will and god's will are two separate things.

 

 

Get it now?

 

 

 

 

Then the question is can God impart a manifestation of Himself with different will than Himself.  

 

And you are saying that my will is different than God's? ...separate things?  Free?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Yes, if everything is God breathed, then it's His free will certainly.....which by definition makes ours free, does it not?

 

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No.  It does not.

To begin with, Ed, it does not logically follow that because god has free will, said free will is extended to us.  You're asserting A and then positing B based on A, without first giving compelling support for the validity of A and then demonstrating a reasonable inference of B from A.  In other words, no, it does not.  Does Pooch have free will in what kibble he eats based in the vast number of choices you get to make at the feed'n'seed?  Or does Pooch either eat what kibble you give him or do without and starve?  

 

Secondly, it does not follow from scripture.  Walt has done a good job of demonstrating this, so I will not belabor the point.  It is worth pointing out, however, that you have said yourself that god established his plan prior to the foundation of the earth.  This belief is in direct conflict with your belief in free will.

[Edgarcito]

12 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

To begin with, Ed, it does not logically follow that because god has free will, said free will is extended to us.  You're asserting A and then positing B based on A, without first giving compelling support for the validity of A and then demonstrating a reasonable inference of B from A.  In other words, no, it does not.  Does Pooch have free will in what kibble he eats based in the vast number of choices you get to make at the feed'n'seed?  Or does Pooch either eat what kibble you give him or do without and starve?  

 

Secondly, it does not follow from scripture.  Walt has done a good job of demonstrating this, so I will not belabor the point.  It is worth pointing out, however, that you have said yourself that god established his plan prior to the foundation of the earth.  This belief is in direct conflict with your belief in free will.

But it logically follows if God is unchanging, and that God has free will, then whatever God manifests has free will.

 

Just answer this please.  You're saying that God could impart a different will than His?  Yes or no.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

38 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Just answer this please.  You're saying that God could impart a different will than His?  Yes or no.

That is somewhat of a loaded question.  He clearly hardened Pharaoh's heart, thereby not merely imparting, but imposing, his will on another.  We're invited to believe Adam and Eve were free to choose; but we also have reason to suspect that god has already stacked the cards against them in order to ensure they'd make the choice he wanted.

 

On the other hand, if god is omnipotent, then he could impart genuine, morally significant free will to us... at the expense of his omniscience, of course.  But, then, him not knowing would become something God can not do, which would negate his omnipotence.  What a Kluttz-erfuck.

 

Based on scripture, I'd say, "no, god has clearly predetermined the outcome and not only does he not impart a will other than his own, he actively imposes his own will on everything he manifests."

 

Based on logic, I'd say, " no, god does not exist and therefore cannot have a will to impose or impart."

[Edgarcito]

6 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

That is somewhat of a loaded question. 

Apparently it's so loaded, you didn't answer the question at all...

[Edgarcito]

And if God is omni, then how can He just be morally evil?  Is that logical?  You're using formal logic or reasoning?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You're

Are you

[Edgarcito]

4 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Are you

There's scripture for you as well DB... 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

12 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

And if God is omni, then how can He just be morally evil?  Is that logical?  You're using formal logic or reasoning?

Ed,

 

I'm going to try and help you out here. Because I think you might could find enough scripture to make an argument that the method of salvation in christ was predestined. Even from the foundation of the world. But that we are free to choose Christ or not. However. If you take that stance you would have to accept that everything in the old testament was God's will and design to lead up to Christ. Including the Fall of man in Eden. 

 

I'm not going to give you the scriptures to make that argument tho. 

 

Look at me. Still trying to make you a better Christian Ed. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

There's scripture for you as well DB... 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.

.......... verse 14 in which book Ed?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Apparently it's so loaded, you didn't answer the question at all...

Either that or you didn't really read the answer I gave.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

And if God is omni, then how can He just be morally evil?  Is that logical?  You're using formal logic or reasoning?

Damn, son.  How many times do I need to explain the "A cannot be not-A" thing to you?  It's one of the most basic laws of formal logic; and I know I've covered it in at least three of our previous threads.  Seriously, give me a number.  Or even just a ballpark idea of how many times I need to explain it.  I don't mind repeating myself if I have reason to believe someone will eventually understand the concept; but I'm quickly losing hope with you, boy.  jesus god damn christ. 

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Damn, son.  How many times do I need to explain the "A cannot be not-A" thing to you?  It's one of the most basic laws of formal logic; and I know I've covered it in at least three of our previous threads.  Seriously, give me a number.  Or even just a ballpark idea of how many times I need to explain it.  I don't mind repeating myself if I have reason to believe someone will eventually understand the concept; but I'm quickly losing hope with you, boy.  jesus god damn christ. 

If God is all:

 

Romans 11:36
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen., then how is it logical that you define Him as only one aspect of all?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

50 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

If God is all:

 

Romans 11:36
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen., then how is it logical that you define Him as only one aspect of all?

I don't.  

[walterpthefirst]

4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Then the question is can God impart a manifestation of Himself with different will than Himself.  

 

And you are saying that my will is different than God's? ...separate things?  Free?

 

Yes, Edgarcito.

 

Your will is absolutely different to god's and they are two separate things.

 

You would understand this better if you answered the three questions I asked you earlier.

 

Here they are again.  Please answer them this time.

 

Was it your will to hate Esau before he was born?   

 

Was it your will to destroy the world in the Flood?

 

Was it your will to exile the Israelites in Babylon?

 

Please note that I'm not asking if you retrospectively agree with what god decided.

 

No.  I asking you if these decisions were actually MADE BY YOU.

 

If they weren't then you and god are two separate persons.

 

So, please answer the questions.

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

But it logically follows if God is unchanging, and that God has free will, then whatever God manifests has free will.

 

Just answer this please.  You're saying that God could impart a different will than His?  Yes or no.

 

Yes, if god creates beings with free will, then by definition their will is separate and different from his.

 

If that were not the case then god WILLED Satan to disobey him.

 

If that were not the case then god WILLED Adam and Eve to disobey him.

 

If that were not the case then god WILLED all sinners to disobey him.

 

And therefore neither Satan, Adam and Eve nor any sinner chose to disobey god.

 

It was HIS decision and HIS will, not theirs.

 

That's what predestination is.

 

God deciding things according to his will and everyone else being pawns in his game. 

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

And if God is omni, then how can He just be morally evil?  Is that logical?  You're using formal logic or reasoning?

 

Well, ask yourself this question, Edgarcito.

 

Is it morally evil for god to hate Esau before that man was even born and hadn't done anything good or evil?

 

Is it morally evil of god to condemn him to hell before he lived?

 

Is it morally evil of god to condemn anyone in this way?

 

You will need to consult your moral compass to answer these questions. 

 

(I hope it isn't broken.)

 

 

[Edgarcito]

14 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Yes, if god creates beings with free will, then by definition their will is separate and different from his.

 

If that were not the case then god WILLED Satan to disobey him.

 

If that were not the case then god WILLED Adam and Eve to disobey him.

 

If that were not the case then god WILLED all sinners to disobey him.

 

And therefore neither Satan, Adam and Eve nor any sinner chose to disobey god.

 

It was HIS decision and HIS will, not theirs.

 

That's what predestination is.

 

God deciding things according to his will and everyone else being pawns in his game. 

You are going to have to help me out here Walter.

 

1) God doesn't have free will but can manifest Himself with free will? Yet He is unchanging and can't lie?

 

 

How does God not have free will?  Am I misreading you?

 

Thx.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

40 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I don't.  

"dammit son, how many times do I need to remind you that you concluded God is evil".  Pick a number...

[walterpthefirst]

5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You are going to have to help me out here Walter.

 

1) God doesn't have free will but can manifest Himself with free will? Yet He is unchanging and can't lie?

 

 

How does God not have free will?  Am I misreading you?

 

Thx.

 

 

 

Yes, you are misreading me.

 

God does have free will.

 

But by deciding who will go to hell and who won't before people are born, he is denying these people their free will.

 

By predestining people in this way it is GOD who is doing the deciding, not them.

 

How can they decide anything if they don't exist yet?

 

If, as manifestations of a free willed god they have their choices made for them, then they have no free will.

 

That help?

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

If God is all, then how is it logical that you define Him as only one aspect of all?

 

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I don't.  

 

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

"dammit son, how many times do I need to remind you that you concluded God is evil".  Pick a number...

If you can demonstrate just one instance in which I defined god as only evil, I'll turn in my Super Moderator badge and delete my account from this website. 

 

Barring that, you can admit that I never have defined the entirety of god with the singular aspect of him being evil.  You can also admit that you lied when you insinuated that I had; and you can offer me a public apology for your dishonesty, given that this is the second, time in as many weeks as I've had to call you out for it.  

 

Your move, sport.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

17 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

There's scripture for you as well DB... 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.

I don't know what scripture this is since you didn't tell me what book and chapter it was in. Looks familiar but definitely not KJV. Either way. Its not very nice. I'm not trying to "decieve" anyone. I'm trying to tell people the truth. The writers of the Bible have decieved enough people, don't you think?

 

DB