Putting An End3 To The Free Will Versus Predestination Debate

[Edgarcito]

14 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

 

If you can demonstrate just one instance in which I defined god as only evil, I'll turn in my Super Moderator badge and delete my account from this website. 

I don't have the time nor the desire to search through your logical diatribes.  To the latter, probably not a bad thought given you can't keep from mixing your personal emotions with the moderator job...just an observation. 

[Edgarcito]

56 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

I don't know what scripture this is since you didn't tell me what book and chapter it was in. Looks familiar but definitely not KJV. Either way. Its not very nice. I'm not trying to "decieve" anyone. I'm trying to tell people the truth. The writers of the Bible have decieved enough people, don't you think?

 

DB

Ephesians 4 if I'm remembering from yesterday.  It just appears from my perspective DB that you are blown back and forth from your own experience to what these guys are suggesting. 

[walterpthefirst]

30 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Ephesians 4 if I'm remembering from yesterday.  It just appears from my perspective DB that you are blown back and forth from your own experience to what these guys are suggesting. 

 

Edgarcito quoted Ephesians 4 : 14 yesterday.

 

14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Asking you to go back and answer my questions seems to be a No-No for you, Edgarcito.

 

So, I'll try asking you new ones.

 

 

Do you think god was sitting in heaven, decades ago, with the Book of Life open in front of him and only wrote your name in it, on a blank page, the moment you committed your life to Jesus?

 

Or, since he's all-knowing and never changes, do you think that the Book of Life was fully completed by him, with your name and all the names of the saved in it, before he created everything and that book was sealed up before he created the universe, so that only he could open it on Judgment Day, just as scripture tells us?

 

Revelation 20 : 

 

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

[Edgarcito]

21 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Asking you to go back and answer my questions seems to be a No-No for you, Edgarcito.

 

So, I'll try asking you new ones.

 

 

Do you think god was sitting in heaven, decades ago, with the Book of Life open in front of him and only wrote your name in it, on a blank page, the moment you committed your life to Jesus?

 

Or, since he's all-knowing and never changes, do you think that the Book of Life was fully completed by him, with your name and all the names of the saved in it, before he created everything and that book was sealed up before he created the universe, so that only he could open it on Judgment Day, just as scripture tells us?

 

Revelation 20 : 

 

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

I'm gathering that our name was in the book before the foundation of the earth....but that we also might be blotted from the book.  Has been a long time Walter, thx.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Ephesians 4 if I'm remembering from yesterday.  It just appears from my perspective DB that you are blown back and forth from your own experience to what these guys are suggesting. 

How do you mean? Are you suggesting that I am somehow thinking my deconversion may have been the wrong choice? 

[walterpthefirst]

5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm gathering that our name was in the book before the foundation of the earth....but that we also might be blotted from the book.  Has been a long time Walter, thx.

 

If that's so, then what about poor Esau?

 

His name can't ever have been written in the Book of Life if god hated him from before the foundation of the earth.

 

God never changes and is not a man that he should change his mind.

 

Which means that god hated Esau, not on account of anything he did in his life, but from before creation.

 

Question:

 

Has god been fair and just to Esau by consigning him to hell before time began?

 

?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Ephesians 4 if I'm remembering from yesterday.  It just appears from my perspective DB that you are blown back and forth from your own experience to what these guys are suggesting. 

 

 

Ok thank you,

 

Just keep in mind that I was EXTREMELY indoctrinated to use the KJV. I'm not asking anyone to only use KJV but please atleast put book, chapter, verse so I can look it up in KJV. Because I'm not kidding. When I read other versions, my mind doesn't register what its saying. It doesn't even activate my biblical memory banks as something that was even in the bible. (Edit: it so doesn't relate to any sermon I've ever heard or preached.)

 

After going and reading it in KJV. I gotcha now. You were talking about Walter and RNP deceiving me. Don't worry. They haven't said anything I don't agree with. And I tend to study things out myself. Me n Walter don't always agree with what the Bible says. I think you've seen that. But we do both agree that the Bible is bullshit. Whether its his former churches bullshit, my former churches bullshit, or your bullshit. Its still the same pile of bullshit. Just in different minds. 

 

DB

[TheRedneckProfessor]

16 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

 

If you can demonstrate just one instance in which I defined god as only evil, I'll turn in my Super Moderator badge and delete my account from this website. 

 

Barring that, you can admit that I never have defined the entirety of god with the singular aspect of him being evil.  You can also admit that you lied when you insinuated that I had; and you can offer me a public apology for your dishonesty, given that this is the second, time in as many weeks as I've had to call you out for it.  

 

Your move, sport.

 

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't have the time nor the desire to search through your logical diatribes.  To the latter, probably not a bad thought given you can't keep from mixing your personal emotions with the moderator job...just an observation. 

Redirecting the conversation onto your perceived flaws in my character was not one of the options you were given, @Edgarcito.   Your options were to either support your claim against me or admit it was a lie.  You've clearly opted against the former; and at the moment, I'm of no mind to deal with a blatant liar.  As a result, you and I are done for now.  If you decide you'd like to be honest, we can converse again.  But until you're ready to get honest, I have nothing more to say to you. 

[Edgarcito]

12 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

Redirecting the conversation onto your perceived flaws in my character was not one of the options you were given, @Edgarcito.   Your options were to either support your claim against me or admit it was a lie.  You've clearly opted against the former; and at the moment, I'm of no mind to deal with a blatant liar.  As a result, you and I are done for now.  If you decide you'd like to be honest, we can converse again.  But until you're ready to get honest, I have nothing more to say to you. 

I formed my own option because your argument was not logical.  That we don't talk anymore...WONDERFUL.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Funny that Ed is worried about DB being deceived by me and Walt, when there is a blatant lie between Ed and I that Ed refuses to address.  

[Edgarcito]

34 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

If that's so, then what about poor Esau?

 

His name can't ever have been written in the Book of Life if god hated him from before the foundation of the earth.

 

God never changes and is not a man that he should change his mind.

 

Which means that god hated Esau, not on account of anything he did in his life, but from before creation.

 

Question:

 

Has god been fair and just to Esau by consigning him to hell before time began?

 

?

I'm thinking there is a distinction of dead and dead in Christ....which I'm remembering might have a different end result.

 

I'll look, thx.

[walterpthefirst]

How can that be?

 

The end result (hell) was chosen for Esau by god before time began.

 

God can't have his mind changed by anything and so nothing Esau could do when he lived could change god's mind.

 

He was condemned by god, not just to death but to eternal suffering - because god always hated him!

 

Not on account of anything he did or didn't do.  Not on account of any choice he could make.

 

He had no free will to exercise on this matter.

 

God denied Esau the right to freely choose his own fate.

 

Romans 9 : 

 

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 

12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

 

 

So, was it fair and just of god to do this to Esau?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

39 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

How can that be?

 

The end result (hell) was chosen for Esau by god before time began.

 

God can't have his mind changed by anything and so nothing Esau could do when he lived could change god's mind.

 

He was condemned by god, not just to death but to eternal suffering - because god always hated him!

 

Not on account of anything he did or didn't do.  Not on account of any choice he could make.

 

He had no free will to exercise on this matter.

 

God denied Esau the right to freely choose his own fate.

 

Romans 9 : 

 

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 

12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

 

 

So, was it fair and just of god to do this to Esau?

 

 

 

 

 

 

How can you be blotted out of the book of life...which Revelation suggests, no?  Like I said Walter, I'm not up on Revelation and it's been a very long time...years.  I'm preparing for an audit this week, so I'm not going to be very attentive at the moment.  I shall try.  Thx.

[walterpthefirst]

4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

How can you be blotted out of the book of life...which Revelation suggests, no?  Like I said Walter, I'm not up on Revelation and it's been a very long time...years.  I'm preparing for an audit this week, so I'm not going to be very attentive at the moment.  I shall try.  Thx.

 

No.

 

The Book of Life is not eternal and unchanging like god.  It may well have started off with the names of every person who will ever live written in it.  And then god blots out the names of those who will not enter heaven from its pages.  Whether he did this before the beginning of the universe or does this on a daily basis really doesn't matter.  That's not the issue here.

 

The real issue here is god preparing people in advance for destruction.  As he did with Esau.

 

God is eternal, does not change and cannot have his mind changed by anything in his creation.  We  agree on that.  So, if he prepares someone for destruction in advance, then he must have always intended them to be destroyed.  Jesus cannot save them because he only does the will of his Father.  If the Father wills that these people are predestined for destruction, then that is His will and Jesus will obey it.

 

This means that predestined-for-destruction group cannot be saved by Christ's blood. 

 

Therefore, Jesus did not die on the cross for the ENTIRE world.  He only died on the cross for those whom god had prepared in advance for salvation.  God did not love the ENTIRE world so much that he gave his one and only Son to save ALL sinners.  God only ever loved those sinners he had already prepared in advance for salvation.  The other sinners, whom he prepared for destruction, he always hated.  Just like Esau.

 

If this is so Edgarcito, then you did not choose to believe in Jesus and so be saved.  Instead, god prepared you in advance, like many others, to be saved.  The choice was never yours and you didn't choose Jesus.  God chose for you, long before you ever lived.  Thessalonians  2 : 13 explains exactly what god did for you and what you did not do for yourself.

 

“But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.” 

 

If you believe that this is god's inerrant word Edgarcito then it means that you did not freely choose Jesus.

 

Do you believe it?

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

[midniterider]

What if your belief in Jesus did not include the bible?

[◊ Weezer ◊]

10 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

According to a book I just read, something like that may have happened.  According to the book, the biblical story of Adam and Eve in Eden was taken from Sumerian writings that were much older than the biblical writings.  And in that source, Lucifer (not called that in the original writings) was a turncoat and befriended the people in the "garden" and defied the "gods" that had "made" them.  And they evidently were "created" from more primitive beings through cross-breeding or DNA manipulation.  (perhaps this explains the missing link)??  In the original Sumerian story Eden had many, many more people than Adam and Eve.  And it was more like a farm than a garden. Perhaps even a settlement?? The "Adams" and "Eves" were originally created to serve as servants/slaves to the "gods", but things got out of hand.  The Biblical Genesis story is just a small, distorted blip on the radar compared to the much older Sumerian writings.

 

If interested, the book is Eden: The Sumerian version of Genesis  by Anton Parks.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

10 minutes ago, Weezer said:

 

According to a book I just read, something like that may have happened.  According to the book, the biblical story of Adam and Eve in Eden was taken from Sumerian writings that were much older than the biblical writings.  And in that source, Lucifer (not called that in the original writings) was a turncoat and befriended the people in the "garden" and defied the "gods" that had "made" them.  And they evidently were "created" from more primitive beings through cross-breeding or DNA manipulation.  (perhaps this explains the missing link)??  In the original Sumerian story Eden had many, many more people than Adam and Eve.  And it was more like a farm than a garden. Perhaps even a settlement?? The "Adams" and "Eves" were originally created to serve as servants to the "gods", but things got out of hand.  The Biblical Genesis story is just a small, distorted blip on the radar compared to the much older Sumerian writings.

 

If interested, the book is Eden: The Sumerian version of Genesis  by Anton Parks.  

 

Hmm thats very interesting considering my recent thoughts about the creation account. The serpent really doesn't sound like an enemy. He really doesn't tell them anything that isn't true. God is the one that starts throwing curses around and banishing people. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Just now, DarkBishop said:

 

Hmm thats very interesting considering my recent thoughts about the creation account. The serpent really doesn't sound like an enemy. He really doesn't tell them anything that isn't true. God is the one that starts throwing curses around and banishing people. 

 

DB

It could well be that it is the left over Sumerian influence that I'm seeing. Underlying what we were always taught as Christians. The story it was built upon is still there. Like a whisper. I feel the same thing about the canaanite Elyon Pantheon of God's. Its still there. It's just covered up and changed. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 minute ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Hmm thats very interesting considering my recent thoughts about the creation account. The serpent really doesn't sound like an enemy. He really doesn't tell them anything that isn't true. God is the one that starts throwing curses around and banishing people. 

 

DB

And in the Sumerian story there is more than one god.  

[◊ Weezer ◊]

2 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

It could well be that it is the left over Sumerian influence that I'm seeing. Underlying what we were always taught as Christians. The story it was built upon is still there. Like a whisper. I feel the same thing about the canaanite Elyon Pantheon of God's. Its still there. It's just covered up and changed. 

That's basically what the author says about the Sumerian writings.  Very few people can even read it.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

The more I study, the more I learn that much of the Bible is lifted from, twisted, and melded with older writings and religions.  Fabricated by human beings.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

@walterpthefirst

 

I have given it a lot of thought. And I do think that decay was set in place with the curse in genesis 3. 

 

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

This is definitely indicating that he would die..... eventually. I am still curious why the writers of the Bible made the characters live so long at first. And didn't set the maximum age of man until chapter 6. 

 

I'm sure that is just another question, that will never be answered...... or maybe I just need to wait till I die to get the answer  seems that is when we will get all the other answers. 

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

7 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

@walterpthefirst

 

I have given it a lot of thought. And I do think that decay was set in place with the curse in genesis 3. 

 

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

This is definitely indicating that he would die..... eventually. I am still curious why the writers of the Bible made the characters live so long at first. And didn't set the maximum age of man until chapter 6. 

 

I'm sure that is just another question, that will never be answered...... or maybe I just need to wait till I die to get the answer  seems that is when we will get all the other answers. 

 

DB

 

I suggested a reason why the ages of the patriarchs declined.

 

Shall we revisit my idea?