Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

Putting An End3 To The Free Will Versus Predestination Debate


TheRedneckProfessor

Recommended Posts

11 minutes ago, Rev R said:

It's as good as anything else, but the editor really should have spotted that and told him "Hey! You've painted yourself into a corner here."

 

The late, great Arthur C. Clarke one wrote that there are two nasty traps lying in wait for all science fiction writers.

 

The first is failure of the nerve.  This is where a writer might shy away from too controversial a subject.  Sometimes it's easier to play it safe and storylines can suffer because of that.  The second is failure of the imagination.  This is where a writer might not think through the full consequences of a given technology or a certain aspect of science.  

 

Perhaps Shaw and his editor suffered a bit from the latter?  They could conceive of computers controlling starships through thousands of hyperspace jumps with incredible precision, but they couldn't conceive of the same machines being able to speak and be spoken to.

 

That sounds like a failure of the imagination to me.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

And yet, if it were that easy Pantheory, why is the debate about predestination still raging after two millennia?

 

 

If we freely choose to send ourselves to hell or to heaven then why does Paul first say that we are chosen according to god's will before the beginning of all things and then also say the opposite a verse later?  As in Ephesians 1 : 11 - 14.

 

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 

12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

 

Verses 11 and 12 clearly say that we do not choose our destinies for ourselves and by ourselves, but it is chosen for us,  according to god's will.  Not our will.  But his.

 

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 

14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

Then Paul flips around and says that we become Christ's when we heard the Word of god.  Not before, when god predestined us in advance, long before we were born.  

 

So Paul seems to give equal weight to two contradictory scenarios.  The first, where god imposes his will on us and predestines us to heaven or hell according to his plan.  And the second, where we are free to choose to save or damn ourselves within the span of our lives.  That our salvation or damnation is not something worked out in advance by god but which proceeds in real time in respect of our free will.

 

So, which is it?  These are two mutually exclusive scenarios.

 

And what about Romans 9 : 11 - 24?   Please note the highlighted verses.

 

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 

12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 

15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 

20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 

23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 

24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 

 

Before the twins Esau and Jacob were born god's purpose for them was planned.  If they had the free will to choose their own destinies then nothing could be planned for them.  Esau could have chosen to be god's beloved.  But it did not depend on Esau's desire or efforts.  His destiny was settled because god had chosen not to have mercy on him.

 

If we have free will Pantheory, how can god prepare some people in advance to be objects of his wrath in hell?  In the same way, how can god prepare other people in advance to be glorified in heaven?  Surely people with free will prepare themselves by their freely made choices?  And only do so in their own lifetimes?

 

But it's one or the other, not both.  People can't have the choice made for them before they live and then also have the freedom to choose for themselves during their own lifetimes.  

 

The bible sends mixed messages, first blowing one way and then the other, contradicting itself over and over again.

 

Hence, the ongoing disagreements within Christianity over predestination and free will.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

"And yet, if it were that easy Pantheory, why is the debate about predestination still raging after two millennia?"

 

There is no debate IMO, only amongst Christians. If God is non existent and the Bible a book of fiction, how could there be a debate? Maybe a discussion concerning the intended meaning of the Bible? We both know that little or none of the Bible contains any truths. I would expect that nearly all intellectual atheists would agree there is no meaning to any of this so-called "debate."Take almost any position and you can find quotes fore or against it in the Bible IMO. Whoever said the Bible was consistent in its writings, not me :)  Do you expect that many Christians would agree with my opinion expressed above, very few I expect. 

 

Your writings and quotes above explain just some of the almost countless inconsistencies and ridiculous promotions of God belief within the Bible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My apologies for not being specific or clear enough, Pantheory.

 

Of course I meant that the debate is still raging among Christians.

 

I agree that it's possible to interpret the bible in different ways and this, no doubt, has lead to the schisms, wars and general fracturing of Christianity over history.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

My apologies for not being specific or clear enough, Pantheory.

 

Of course I meant that the debate is still raging among Christians.

 

I agree that it's possible to interpret the bible in different ways and this, no doubt, has lead to the schisms, wars and general fracturing of Christianity over history.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

I had an afterthought on this subject realizing that even amongst non-Christian scientists this debate continues, as to whether free-will really exists. And if not, that could imply predestination. As usual my beliefs are a little different.

 

Cheers Walter 🍹

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't followed this discussion all the way through, but one problem with this, like many arguments, is viewing it from an all or none viewpoint.   

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Weezer said:

I haven't followed this discussion all the way through, but one problem with this, like many arguments, is viewing it from an all or none viewpoint.   

 

Yeah, I also think that "all or none" concerning free will or predestination is a problem as you suggest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Weezer said:

I haven't followed this discussion all the way through, but one problem with this, like many arguments, is viewing it from an all or none viewpoint.   

 

9 hours ago, pantheory said:

 

Yeah, I also think that "all or none" concerning free will or predestination is a problem as you suggest.

 

The predestination/freewill issue wasn't really talked about in any of the churches I went to. But I would say that in the gospel assembly, free will would have been the winner because we believed that you could lose salvation if you went back into sin. I think in recent years my parents have taken a more predestination stance. But I'm not 100% sure about that. And I'm not going to ask. Their church is a little out there on some stuff. They believe their particular brand of Baptist is the true church and that all other Christians are still going to heaven but will be in a lower class than their church. Its a bit messed up. Something about levels in heaven. 

 

I've watched what Walter has said and even argued some points about it. But it looks like the authors didn't analyze the subject as much as we have here. 

 

Maybe the thought was that the process of salvation and the beginning of the Christian church were predestined and everything leading up to that, including the apostles were predestined. But that the hearing of the word and salvation was left to the free will of the individual? It is a very confusing concept. Then ya gotta consider that God supposedly knows our thoughts and has already numbered our steps. Which goes back to predestination. And it could just be biblical contradictions as usual. Either way for the non-believer it doesn't really matter. But to a Christian that solely aligns with one or the other it would be. 

 

It was an issue in some Baptist churches. I remember meeting some "Free will Baptists". And although I wasn't a part of their church I'm going to assume the "free will" they are talking about is this subject. Free Will vs predestination. It looks like there is plenty of scripture to argue for both. 

 

It is so nice that Christians have a God that is not the author of confusion isn't it?

 

Dark Bishop

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

 

The predestination/freewill issue wasn't really talked about in any of the churches I went to. But I would say that in the gospel assembly, free will would have been the winner because we believed that you could lose salvation if you went back into sin. I think in recent years my parents have taken a more predestination stance. But I'm not 100% sure about that. And I'm not going to ask. Their church is a little out there on some stuff. They believe their particular brand of Baptist is the true church and that all other Christians are still going to heaven but will be in a lower class than their church. Its a bit messed up. Something about levels in heaven. 

 

I've watched what Walter has said and even argued some points about it. But it looks like the authors didn't analyze the subject as much as we have here. 

 

Maybe the thought was that the process of salvation and the beginning of the Christian church were predestined and everything leading up to that, including the apostles were predestined. But that the hearing of the word and salvation was left to the free will of the individual? It is a very confusing concept. Then ya gotta consider that God supposedly knows our thoughts and has already numbered our steps. Which goes back to predestination. And it could just be biblical contradictions as usual. Either way for the non-believer it doesn't really matter. But to a Christian that solely aligns with one or the other it would be. 

 

It was an issue in some Baptist churches. I remember meeting some "Free will Baptists". And although I wasn't a part of their church I'm going to assume the "free will" they are talking about is this subject. Free Will vs predestination. It looks like there is plenty of scripture to argue for both. 

 

It is so nice that Christians have a God that is not the author of confusion isn't it?

 

Dark Bishop

 

My second comment above had nothing to do with the Bible pr religion. It was related to the scientific conjecture concerning fee will vs predestination. It also can be involved with different opinions.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, pantheory said:

 

My second comment above had nothing to do with the Bible pr religion. It was related to the scientific conjecture concerning fee will vs predestination. It also can be involved with different opinions.

 

 

Sounds like another one of those scientific arguments that give me a headache. Like alternate forms of consciousness and reality. 

 

DB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Sounds like another one of those scientific arguments that give me a headache. Like alternate forms of consciousness and reality. 

 

DB

 

Half the scientists of the world are religious to some extent so one can imagine that there are differences of opinions.

 

But for us, 🍻  this is my preference. , cheers my friend

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, pantheory said:

But for us, 🍻  this is my preference. , cheers my friend

Now that sounds like a plan 😆 🤣 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/11/2022 at 5:20 PM, walterpthefirst said:

That sounds like a failure of the imagination to me.

You are probably right. Failure of the imagination might be potent enough to be listed first.

Regarding the persisting thought that "all or nothing" seems a little silly: would there be a scriptural or theological argument to support that the God of Abraham follows Mike Tyson's advice, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face."?
 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 10 months later...

Free will doesn't exist=God condemns you and it is not your fault 

Free will does exist=God condemns you if you don't believe or are born into the wrong faith.

 

 

God doesn't exist, so it doesn't really matter. 

 

Thank you for coming to my TED TALK

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator
35 minutes ago, quantum said:

Free will doesn't exist=God condemns you and it is not your fault 

Free will does exist=God condemns you if you don't believe or are born into the wrong faith.

 

 

God doesn't exist, so it doesn't really matter. 

 

Thank you for coming to my TED TALK

Free will cannot possibly exist I'd god has a plan.  Free will cannot possibly exist if god is omniscient.  On the other hand, Free will must exist in order for salvation to be based on love.  Free will must exist in order for Original Sin to be based on choice.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/11/2022 at 6:39 PM, walterpthefirst said:

My apologies for not being specific or clear enough, Pantheory.

 

Of course I meant that the debate is still raging among Christians.

 

I agree that it's possible to interpret the bible in different ways and this, no doubt, has lead to the schisms, wars and general fracturing of Christianity over history.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

I like this post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/16/2023 at 1:05 PM, RankStranger said:

 

I like this post.

Hello Rank, I am Moxieflux66. You are legendary here in the Lion's Den! Thank you for visiting again. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For some reason free will was never a big deal in our church.  This probably is not original, but this thought crossed my mind.  Yes, we, in a sense have free will.  BUT, our "will" is highly influenced by the conditioning of family, church and society.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, moxieflux66 said:

Hello Rank, I am Moxieflux66. You are legendary here in the Lion's Den! Thank you for visiting again. 

 

Howdy Moxieflux66, and thanks.  Are you new here or have you returned to the fold from days of old?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

Howdy Moxieflux66, and thanks.  Are you new here or have you returned to the fold from days of old?

Hi there. I am new, been here about a month and not to be confused with another member named "Moxie". Didn't see her before I came aboard. I look forward to chatting with you here. I see you've had quite a lot of discussion with the boys on this thread already. Sorry 'bout the movie reference but you said it, It was a Classic the minute it was born! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.