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5 hours ago, aik said:

Fair question. Yes, I do assure. But be sure that not every debate will I enter into. My daily schedule is thick, so don't be upset that I cannot be here online whole day long. That is why I will get acquainted with this platform step by step. 

 

Thank you for this assurance, aik.

 

Those debates that you do enter into will be entered into with an open mind.

 

 

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4 hours ago, TABA said:


That’s a very good question, aik.  Even regular ex-christian members sometimes ask why we provide a platform for christians, and why we bother to argue with them, thinking it’s a waste of time.

 

If our goal was to convince our christian visitors to stop believing and to become one of us, yes that would generally be a big waste of time.  Few christians are willing to even consider the possibility that what they believe is not true and that their god doesn’t exist.

 

One reason we allow christian arguments to be heard is to demonstrate to one and all that we are confident in our rejection of christianity and have no fear that christians will make a more convincing case.  We believe the arguments against christianity are overwhelming and able to prevail, in the minds of those who are not locked into the belief system by indoctrination or emotion.  And that’s the key: our main audience is not devout believers like yourself: it does include people who come here and start reading around, people who are already inclined to reject christianity or at least are starting to question all they have been thought.  
 

You will learn that deconversion from christianity is a process, not a single event.  It starts when the believer both hears objections to the belief system and is willing to at least consider that what they have believed is not in fact true.  Sometimes those objections come from inside the person’s own mind: they may have harbored lingering, nagging doubts about aspects of christianity for years.  In truth, few christians lack such doubts completely, but most suppress them, as I personally did for many years.  
 

Anyway, we have a lot of people who find this community when they are starting to think they no longer believe.  This is often a very traumatic time for the person, as they start to consider for the first time that the things they believed for years may actually not be true.  Their tendency to no longer believe can be wracked with fear, fear that Hell may actually be real and is waiting for them if they are wrong,  fear of being ostracized by believing family and friends.  They may be torn with indecision, finding some arguments in favor of christianity to be persuasive while also being impressed by certain arguments against.  They don’t know where to turn or what to think.

 

Those of us who are now stalwart, dedicated members of this community started the journey away from christianity with that same fear and confusion, in many cases trying desperately to hold on to our former faith even while it crumbled.  Here we found a group of people who had overcome fear and confusion and gained not just a welcoming community but also a new way to think that eased our doubts, solidified our rejection of christian dogma, and provide a foundation for a post-christian life free of religious dogma, free of fear and guilt, and with minds newly open to new ideas and new possibilities.  
 

So this community is a place where people learn to think differently, but it’s also a place of immense learning.  Most of us have learned things about scripture, mythology, the history of religions and of course science, that have vastly expanded and deepened our deconversions and made the idea of going back to christianity as unthinkable as going back to our mothers’ wombs.  We want those just starting out on the deconversion process to gain the benefits of “full deconversion” also, and that’s why we are happy to engage with christian arguments. 

Taba, very very much appreciating your answer. It was for me a feeling of respect, and I learned a new thing about people who have to leave religion. Y'know, when you said about traumatic time for a person who is disappointed I wish so much that I could be beside that person holding him with a couple of words like, be strong, or you're not alone. I am talking about those who became victims of a religious system. But in churches we note there are people, who want only to show themselves to others puffing up in there own minds, young people, and they never even stepped on the path of knowing who is Jesus, I am not even saying to follow Him. Such people don't know what the salvation is about.

 

What refers to doubts. Doubts are normal for a man, believer or non-believer, doesn't matter. There is a reason for such doubts and there is a source from where they come in. Another time we'll speak about it if God gives us an opportunity. 

 

I decided to stay here for a while because I saw a need. I am here to say that following Jesus is not a religion. Somebody here has already said that christianity is a religion. I will argue it anyway. But of course in the world there are many religions, including Christianity also. I think some people in the history turned Christianity into a religion, one of many others. And today we can see the same tendension. 

 

I am not here to say that I am good you are bad, or I am smarter than you, or God loves me more than you. It is not true. 

 

By the way here in Russia we often bring american churches as an example how not to do. But surely we know that there many different churches in America and many different believers, true and not true. We have examples in America to learn from. But statistics shows that many churches turn into clubs where people gather. What has Jesus to do with it? I want to tell everybody here that Jesus is life itself, whoever believes Jesus he has the life, and whoever denies he denies life. He may breath yet he has no life.

 

Thank you for such an opportunity. Hope for friendship.

 

P.s. very often people here use the word Open mind. I will argue who has an open mind, the one who follows Jesus, or the one who does not.

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Out of curiosity, @aik, are you Russian Orthodox, Slavic Baptist, or some other denomination of christianity?

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5 hours ago, Hierophant said:
добрый вечер@aik,

 

I appreciate you commenting on my deconversion story. I read through your follow-on comments and I have a good idea of where you are coming from. I want to flesh out a couple things:

 

1. Christianity is a religion by definition. Any ideology that promotes the concepts of God or gods, an afterlife, and cult worship of said God or gods is inherently a religion. I will not allow any deviation from that definition, otherwise we start to render words meaningless. 

 

2. Are you willing to agree that you might be wrong in your understanding of Jesus, or Christianity as a whole? What I mean by that is are you open to the idea that you could be wrong about your beliefs - and willing to accept when I make a strong argument that counters your current beliefs?

Добрый вечер @Hierophant

 

1. Who is the author of such definition? Please answer.

 

2. Originally I am wrong and have wrong understanding of God at any stage of my life and my belief. But the revelation of God about Himself is true. So I already deny my own understanding and you can only help me with it, and I benefit God's revelation. If you say that I should agree with you rather than with God, I say to you that you are too little before God, that is why I choose Him, not you. It is about your strong arguments.

 

Will you be able to answer me? What is deconversion you said? What does it mean for you?

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3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

I asked you to provide objective evidence to support your claim, aik.

 

But instead of doing that you have asked questions of me.

 

The onus is still on you to provide that objective evidence before I answer any of your questions.

 

That's because I have made no claims about my parents.

 

That is something that you have introduced into this thread, not me

 

Whereas you DID claim that "years mean nothing" in this thread.

 

And your claim is currently unsupported by objective evidence.

 

Please provide that objective evidence.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Walter nice to meet you. I meant a simple thing. Years mean nothing it means that for an example the one who has parents divorced, and he lives among those whose parents also divorce, and he sees it and thinks that every family should suffer divorce and it becomes normal in his eyes. And he says I am 40 years old, and in my life I never saw a couple not to be divorced, so there is no real family in the world. The claim to which I have an answer sounds like that when someone tries to show his years of experience. May you will not classify it as an objective evidences, but it is what I have. Maybe I will give you more later, my friend. 

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On 11/12/2022 at 7:40 AM, aik said:

it was interesting for me to read about your journey my friend. i am a believer in Jesus and i am not intended leaving Him. All i want to say is that Jesus is freedom. He sets free from a religion. also He sets free from sin, from attack of others' opinion, from fears, from hesitations and the Bible is true, but religion kills the children of God. Now you are free from religion but your journey is still in process my friend. There is no one else who will be able to free you from evil and sin, but Jesus. Jesus is freedom.

 

Jesus is freedom? Freedom from what? 

 

Religion is defined as the belief in God, so Jesus is a religion if you worship him like a God.

 

I don't need to be set free from sin. Sin is fiction. Ex-Christians have freed themselves from evil and sin and the fiction of the bible and Jesus. 

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2 hours ago, aik said:

Walter nice to meet you. I meant a simple thing. Years mean nothing it means that for an example the one who has parents divorced, and he lives among those whose parents also divorce, and he sees it and thinks that every family should suffer divorce and it becomes normal in his eyes. And he says I am 40 years old, and in my life I never saw a couple not to be divorced, so there is no real family in the world. The claim to which I have an answer sounds like that when someone tries to show his years of experience. May you will not classify it as an objective evidences, but it is what I have. Maybe I will give you more later, my friend. 

 

That's a clever move, aik.

 

By raising the possibility that I won't classify your cited evidence as objective you've introduced something that you can later use to your advantage in a debate.

 

Specifically, the personal interpretation of what qualifies as objective evidence.

 

This allows you to cite something which you interpret as objective evidence, even if I, or other members, do not.

 

Doing this reduces objective evidence, something that we should all agree on, to something that is subjective, personal and relative.

 

As I said, that's a clever move on your part.

 

Now you can cite anything and claim that you interpret it as objective evidence.

 

Even if it clearly isn't.

 

Bravo!

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, aik said:

Добрый вечер @Hierophant

 

1. Who is the author of such definition? Please answer.

 

2. Originally I am wrong and have wrong understanding of God at any stage of my life and my belief. But the revelation of God about Himself is true. So I already deny my own understanding and you can only help me with it, and I benefit God's revelation. If you say that I should agree with you rather than with God, I say to you that you are too little before God, that is why I choose Him, not you. It is about your strong arguments.

 

Will you be able to answer me? What is deconversion you said? What does it mean for you?

 

доброе утро @aik,

To answer #1, that definition is the most widely held by academics in religious studies, and the dictionary. Here is from Merriam-Webster:

 

1
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
2
a(1)
: the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2)
: commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
b
: the state of a religious
a nun in her 20th year of religion
3
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
 
My emphasis added for 1 and a(1).
 
In response to #2, you are stating that no matter what evidence is provided, you are going to default to the Bible, i.e., the Word of God is true. Which means inherently, you are going to be unreasonable. By unreasonable, I mean you are going to adhere to your beliefs, in spite of evidence. That's fine, I can work with that...I am going to show you why believing without evidence does not have any real method of knowing the truth about our reality.
 
Deconversion means that I was as true a Christian as you can get. I was an Evangelical Fudamentalist, meaning I thought the Bible was God's word, or at least inspired by God, and the Bible was a true account of the world's history. Over time, I realized that there is no method we could employ to discover anything about the supernatural or if any of the claims of the Bible were true, that is, a part of our reality.
 
My biggest problem (while I was a believer) is that I did not know if I was really saved. There are thousands of denominations all claiming to know the truth about salvation, but these denominations bicker with others about who is a true Christian, who is a lukewarm Christian, who is a heretic, et cetera, et cetera; therefore, I wanted to absolutely know I was believing the right set of doctrines, and doing the right things. After years of floundering around, I realized that nobody is able to say with any certainty that their view of salvation is correct, because there is no objective way to arrive at an answer. I then realized that this holds true for most every doctrinal and dogmatic stance churches take. It even holds true as to whether or not even a God exist. There is no way to demonstrate, or know such a thing. It is merely speculation at best. And I do not see the purpose of spending my life adhering to what I might ultimately interpret as a set of rules to live my life by, especially if they are in direct conflict with my freedom, character, and personality.
 
At the end of the day, being a Christian means making sacrifices, possibly very severe sacrifices. If I don't know that these sacrifices have any real impact on how a God sees me, or my existence in an afterlife, I therefore consider it a waste of the one life I know I do have to bind myself to an unproven ideology.
 
That is what I mean by deconversion. I refused to believe in any ideology that was beyond the scope of objective evidence provided; therefore, I do not think the evidence bears out that a God(s) exists, which undermines any religion. Personally, I am not even spiritually inclined. I do not have a yearning to meditate, do yoga, or speak to the universe. I am about as pragmatic and rational as you can get as a human. I just don't have a spiritual aspect to my personality, which means that woo woo or emotional appeals to divinity do not sway me.
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Hi Aik, Not to derail the topic here, but this must be a difficult time in Russia right now. It makes my heart ache anytime I see stories of war on the news.  I hope you will stick around and share your thoughts about the conflict - especially from a Christian perspective. 

 

But to get back on point . . .

16 hours ago, aik said:

What refers to doubts. Doubts are normal for a man, believer or non-believer, doesn't matter. There is a reason for such doubts and there is a source from where they come in. Another time we'll speak about it if God gives us an opportunity.

If you are referring to Satan as the "reason for such doubts," I'm afraid you'll have to explain why you believe Satan to be real. 

In fact it would be very helpful to understand why you believe Christianity as real.  And because you seem to want to separate Jesus from the "religion of Christianity," perhaps you could explain why you believe Jesus to be real.  But please make sure to exclude as "evidence" for Jesus  (1) The bible (unless you can explain why bible mythology should be believed more than any other mythology) and (2) your personal experiences or "gut feelings."  Your personal experience and feelings are likely very different than mine and there is no reason to believe yours should be trusted more than mine.

In other words, what are the sources of your beliefs - outside of those 2 things (the bible, and personal experience)?

I would also like to understand what brought you to an ex-Christian website.  Is there something you hope to achieve with your interactions here? 

Apologies for all the questions!

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3 hours ago, freshstart said:

Hi Aik, Not to derail the topic here, but this must be a difficult time in Russia right now. It makes my heart ache anytime I see stories of war on the news.  I hope you will stick around and share your thoughts about the conflict - especially from a Christian perspective


Any discussion of the Russia-Ukraine conflict should be conducted in the Opine Club, not here.

 

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20 hours ago, aik said:

Taba, very very much appreciating your answer. It was for me a feeling of respect, and I learned a new thing about people who have to leave religion.


Good!  Believers often misunderstand our experiences.  
 

Because I was typically long-winded in answering why we debate with believers, I would summarize it like this: The goal is not so much to convince christians that they are wrong to believe, but rather to reassure deconverting people that they are right to not believe. 

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I see that aik is currently logged in.

 

Please read this, aik.

 

https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/83166-a-notice-to-christians-visiting-the-lions-den/#comments

 

Whatever you claim about Jesus, the bible and Christianity should meet the three standards listed there.

 

You should satisfy the Burden of Proof by citing objective evidence to support your claims.

 

Your evidence should be Relevant to us and not something that is subjective and therefore relevant only to you.

 

Your evidence should be Reliable so that it can be independently tested and checked by us.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

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5 hours ago, TABA said:


 


Any discussion of the Russia-Ukraine conflict should be conducted in the Opine Club, not here.

 

Is AIK allowed in the opine club?

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@aik

Welcome to ExC,

 

Don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to be mean. But.

 

So far I've only seen basic proselytizing. This is the exact thing that we did while we were believers. What makes you think that you doing it is going to have any effect on anyone here? Many of us here were believers for many many years. Some were teachers, deacons, Preachers, pastors, or maybe a Bishop in a holiness church like myself. Ok I might be the only one of those here for now. But I'm hoping some of my former associates will see the truth one day. 

 

You said that in Russia you believe American churches have it wrong. 

 

I would honestly like to know why you think that? I'm not familiar with worship in Russia or any other country for that matter. But what makes you think that Russian churches are any more spiritual or interpret the Bible any better than American churches? Is it possible that Russian criticism against the west leaks over into every area of Russian culture to include church? 

 

I was a child in the 80s so I was able to see tension between the US and Russia during the cold War, chernobyl, the fall of the USSR, the rise of Putin, and now the Russian War in Ukraine. All the time Russian sentiment toward the US has been negative. So it makes sense to me that maybe your criticism on American churches follows suit.

 

I doubt there is any valid argument you could make to say American churches are any less Holy than Russian churches. 

 

Either way it is nice to see a new Christian in the Lions Den. Our current tenant isn't the brightest light Christ has in the chandelier. Maybe you can be that light in the darkness. 😉

 

Dark Bishop

 

PS. It really would be nice if you would join the OPINE club and let us know Russian opinion on your presidents, "special military operation". 

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19 hours ago, Hierophant said:

 

доброе утро @aik,

To answer #1, that definition is the most widely held by academics in religious studies, and the dictionary. Here is from Merriam-Webster:

 

1
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
2
a(1)
: the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2)
: commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
b
: the state of a religious
a nun in her 20th year of religion
3
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
 
My emphasis added for 1 and a(1).
 
In response to #2, you are stating that no matter what evidence is provided, you are going to default to the Bible, i.e., the Word of God is true. Which means inherently, you are going to be unreasonable. By unreasonable, I mean you are going to adhere to your beliefs, in spite of evidence. That's fine, I can work with that...I am going to show you why believing without evidence does not have any real method of knowing the truth about our reality.
 
Deconversion means that I was as true a Christian as you can get. I was an Evangelical Fudamentalist, meaning I thought the Bible was God's word, or at least inspired by God, and the Bible was a true account of the world's history. Over time, I realized that there is no method we could employ to discover anything about the supernatural or if any of the claims of the Bible were true, that is, a part of our reality.
 
My biggest problem (while I was a believer) is that I did not know if I was really saved. There are thousands of denominations all claiming to know the truth about salvation, but these denominations bicker with others about who is a true Christian, who is a lukewarm Christian, who is a heretic, et cetera, et cetera; therefore, I wanted to absolutely know I was believing the right set of doctrines, and doing the right things. After years of floundering around, I realized that nobody is able to say with any certainty that their view of salvation is correct, because there is no objective way to arrive at an answer. I then realized that this holds true for most every doctrinal and dogmatic stance churches take. It even holds true as to whether or not even a God exist. There is no way to demonstrate, or know such a thing. It is merely speculation at best. And I do not see the purpose of spending my life adhering to what I might ultimately interpret as a set of rules to live my life by, especially if they are in direct conflict with my freedom, character, and personality.
 
At the end of the day, being a Christian means making sacrifices, possibly very severe sacrifices. If I don't know that these sacrifices have any real impact on how a God sees me, or my existence in an afterlife, I therefore consider it a waste of the one life I know I do have to bind myself to an unproven ideology.
 
That is what I mean by deconversion. I refused to believe in any ideology that was beyond the scope of objective evidence provided; therefore, I do not think the evidence bears out that a God(s) exists, which undermines any religion. Personally, I am not even spiritually inclined. I do not have a yearning to meditate, do yoga, or speak to the universe. I am about as pragmatic and rational as you can get as a human. I just don't have a spiritual aspect to my personality, which means that woo woo or emotional appeals to divinity do not sway me.

Hello @Hierophant

 

No.1 Can you show me one place in the new testament where Jesus calls following Him or believing Him a religion? In the new testament there are 4 times mentioned this word: Acts 26:5 pharisean religion, Col. 2:18 worshipping angels. James 1:26 to jews. All this verses use the word in negative meaning, and the only positive mentioning is in James 1:27, here he uses the word just to make a conclusion of what he had said before. The word religion means a system of practices and obligations. Relationship with Jesus has nothing to do with it. 

 

No.2 I never said that I believe in God without evidences. I have stronger evidences to believe than not to believe. But I ask you. When we talk about a natural thing, of course you can get evidences by natural means, experiences, calculations, measurements etc. A human is natural also. But how are you going to get evidences about  supernatural God when you are natural yourself? 

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14 minutes ago, aik said:

The word religion means a system of practices and obligations. Relationship with Jesus has nothing to do with it

So your saying that a relationship with Jesus doesn't require practices and obligations?

 

Do you believe in baptism of some sort?

Repentance? (This is a practice of christianity) what about good works? There is a lot of scripture to support Christians doing good works after salvation. These are all practices. How about the gathering of yourself together? In other words going to church? This is a practice of Christianity. And usually and obligation to the church. 

 

17 minutes ago, aik said:

No.2 I never said that I believe in God without evidences. I have stronger evidences to believe than not to believe. But I ask you. When we talk about a natural thing, of course you can get evidences by natural means, experiences, calculations, measurements etc. A human is natural also. But how are you going to get evidences about  supernatural God when you are natural yourself? 

 

By evidence do you mean your salvation experience? The filling you get when your in a good church service and it feels like God is moving through the congregation? How about when tears start flowing from your eyes as you see a lost soul make their way down to the altar to accept Jesus as their savior. Are these the evidences you speak of?

 

DB

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1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

@aik

Welcome to ExC,

 

Don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to be mean. But.

 

So far I've only seen basic proselytizing. This is the exact thing that we did while we were believers. What makes you think that you doing it is going to have any effect on anyone here? Many of us here were believers for many many years. Some were teachers, deacons, Preachers, pastors, or maybe a Bishop in a holiness church like myself. Ok I might be the only one of those here for now. But I'm hoping some of my former associates will see the truth one day. 

 

You said that in Russia you believe American churches have it wrong. 

 

I would honestly like to know why you think that? I'm not familiar with worship in Russia or any other country for that matter. But what makes you think that Russian churches are any more spiritual or interpret the Bible any better than American churches? Is it possible that Russian criticism against the west leaks over into every area of Russian culture to include church? 

 

I was a child in the 80s so I was able to see tension between the US and Russia during the cold War, chernobyl, the fall of the USSR, the rise of Putin, and now the Russian War in Ukraine. All the time Russian sentiment toward the US has been negative. So it makes sense to me that maybe your criticism on American churches follows suit.

 

I doubt there is any valid argument you could make to say American churches are any less Holy than Russian churches. 

 

Either way it is nice to see a new Christian in the Lions Den. Our current tenant isn't the brightest light Christ has in the chandelier. Maybe you can be that light in the darkness. 😉

 

Dark Bishop

 

PS. It really would be nice if you would join the OPINE club and let us know Russian opinion on your presidents, "special military operation". 

Hi, 

 

To the first question I will answer that I believe in almighty God, who is able to turn a @DarkBishopinto a light bishop. My respect to you!

 

When I said about american churches I did say about our general opinion inside the churches and never claim that we are true in it. We believers have far more connections with the believers in America than the others. Believers here are not trying to go in line with a political wind. Moreover we try to reject political influence on us. That is why opinion of the whole country that you can know from elsewhere does not often fit to a believer's opinion. 

 

I don't understand what opine means. 

 

Ok. See you later. 

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18 minutes ago, aik said:

 

I don't understand what opine means. 

 

Thank you for your honest answer. I was mostly speculating on that post. 

 

We have a forum on this site that is called the Opine club. Or "the opinion club" its an area out of siight of the general public where we can talk about off topic things like politics. And matters of opinion that don't necessarily promote the purpose of the site as a whole. 

 

We would like you to join the club and let us know what Russians think about the events happening with Ukraine and Russia. Mostly we are in the dark and only get one side of the story. It would be nice to hear Russian side from ....... well someone who is Russian. 

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21 minutes ago, aik said:

1 Can you show me one place in the new testament where Jesus calls following Him or believing Him a religion? In the new testament there are 4 times mentioned this word: Acts 26:5 pharisean religion, Col. 2:18 worshipping angels. James 1:26 to jews. All this verses use the word in negative meaning, and the only positive mentioning is in James 1:27, here he uses the word just to make a conclusion of what he had said before. The word religion means a system of practices and obligations. Relationship with Jesus has nothing to do with it. 

The Buddha never said following him was a religion, either; he only said that following the eight-fold path would lead to enlightenment.  There are no practices or obligations required to practice Buddhism, only 5 basic precepts, which can be interpreted as loosely or as rigidly as the adherent chooses.

And since every sentient being has a Buddha spirit, the "relationship" aspect consists mainly of self-awareness.  

 

Do you agree, then, that Buddhism is as valid as christianity?

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4 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Thank you for your honest answer. I was mostly speculating on that post. 

 

We have a forum on this site that is called the Opine club. Or "the opinion club" its an area out of site of the general public where we can talk about off topic thingsike politics. And matters of opinion that don't necessarily promote the purpose of the site as a whole. 

 

We would like you to join the club and let us know what Russians think about the events happening with Ukraine and Russia. Mostly we are in the dark and only get one side of the story. It would be nice to hear Russian side from ....... well someone who is Russian. 

Sure, i don't mind to join the club and to share shortly about it. 

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4 minutes ago, aik said:

Sure, i don't mind to join the club and to share shortly about it. 

@TABA

Can you make this happen?

 

Thanks,

DB

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18 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

@TABA

Can you make this happen?

 

Thanks,

DB

Or @TheRedneckProfessor @Joshpantera

 

Which ever moderator happens to be online. Can we get AIK in the opine club?

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2 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Or @TheRedneckProfessor @Joshpantera

 

Which ever moderator happens to be online. Can we get AIK in the opine club?

I've sent @aik an invitation.  

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10 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I've sent @aik an invitation.  

Awesome!! Thanks RNP 😊 

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