New Christian Visitor

[walterpthefirst]

8 hours ago, aik said:

 

 

No.2 I never said that I believe in God without evidences. I have stronger evidences to believe than not to believe. But I ask you. When we talk about a natural thing, of course you can get evidences by natural means, experiences, calculations, measurements etc. A human is natural also. But how are you going to get evidences about  supernatural God when you are natural yourself? 

 

Aik,

 

You have exactly identified the problem.  When communicating with us you can only do so using natural means, by writing words that we can read on our computer screens.  But, you would have us believe that you have strong evidence of the supernatural.  So, using only natural means, how do you expect to persuade us of three things?

 

1.  The existence of the supernatural.

2.  That you have strong evidence of the supernatural.

3.  That you have a supernatural relationship with Jesus.

 

Please explain how you are going to persuade us about these three supernatural things using only the natural means of internet communication.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[aik]

On 11/14/2022 at 1:49 AM, walterpthefirst said:

 

That's a clever move, aik.

 

By raising the possibility that I won't classify your cited evidence as objective you've introduced something that you can later use to your advantage in a debate.

 

Specifically, the personal interpretation of what qualifies as objective evidence.

 

This allows you to cite something which you interpret as objective evidence, even if I, or other members, do not.

 

Doing this reduces objective evidence, something that we should all agree on, to something that is subjective, personal and relative.

 

As I said, that's a clever move on your part.

 

Now you can cite anything and claim that you interpret it as objective evidence.

 

Even if it clearly isn't.

 

Bravo!

 

 

 

 

Walter, for example, yesterday on my work I met a situation. My chief was trying to collect statistics out of a work scope schedule, pointin out by item which employee how many items completed already. And the when he had finished shared it with me. I saw that the table itself was very good, but the statistics was wrong and useless. It was saying e.g. that A 30%, B 20%, C 5%. And I said that the data do not express the real situation. Because it does not take into account the difficulty of a job, quality and some other criteria. Because in our office the B was about to be fired because of a bad quality of work. Though she gives out quantity but it is useless, because she is still correcting the work. On the other hand the C is a very reliable worker for us. Because he has done 5% with 100% of quality. So we together with my chief came to a conclusion that the statistics in such manner is absolutely useless. It does not show the real situation. Quantity means nothing, the same as I said years mean nothing.

 

[aik]

9 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

So your saying that a relationship with Jesus doesn't require practices and obligations?

 

Do you believe in baptism of some sort?

Repentance? (This is a practice of christianity) what about good works? There is a lot of scripture to support Christians doing good works after salvation. These are all practices. How about the gathering of yourself together? In other words going to church? This is a practice of Christianity. And usually and obligation to the church. 

 

 

By evidence do you mean your salvation experience? The filling you get when your in a good church service and it feels like God is moving through the congregation? How about when tears start flowing from your eyes as you see a lost soul make their way down to the altar to accept Jesus as their savior. Are these the evidences you speak of?

 

DB

Dear friend,

 

1. When there is practice and obligations, but without relationship with Jesus, it is a religion. It harms the man himself and the others around. 

 

But when practice and obligations come out from relationship with Jesus, it is already not an obligation and not a burden, but life and activity with the heart full of joy. Jesus said that His burden is not heavy. It happens in the result of healthy relationship with Him, when there is no place for a sin. 

 

Yes, we practice repentance baptism and so on.

 

2. You know what you are talking about. But see. The point is not movement, not tears themselves, but what happens in a heart of a man prior to it. What God makes inside a believer, my friend. The change. Is here anyone who can answer by which method one can change his way of thinking completely, and instead of loving sin, or covering it somehow, at once he starts hating the sin and loving good, holyness etc? @DarkBishop we, me and you and almost everybody here, have the stronger evidence than those you have mentioned above. 

 

Those who never learned such a change in their hearts, let not answer please. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, aik said:

Is here anyone who can answer by which method one can change his way of thinking completely,

Zen meditation and mindfulness. 

 

2 hours ago, aik said:

Those who never learned such a change in their hearts, let not answer please. 

I answer because I have learned that self-responsibility and self-awareness, gained through mindfulness, is much more effective at eliminating improper words, thoughts, and actions, than the mythical blood of an imaginary god will ever be at eliminating the "sin" for which that same imaginary god accuses us.

 

In short, if you want to be a better person, think better thoughts, speak better words, do better deeds; and before ling you'll realize you've become a better person.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 hours ago, aik said:

1. When there is practice and obligations, but without relationship with Jesus, it is a religion. It harms the man himself and the others around. 

 

Maybe you should put yourself in someone else's shoes for a moment. A Muslim might say the same thing but instead use the Prophet Muhammad. Or a Hindu man might say the same thing about Ganesh. Or a Wiccan woman might say the same thing about their three part Goddes Diana. The Mother, Maiden, and Crone. 

 

Your saying that your religion isn't a religion because it has Jesus. Outside of your religious mind set. That isn't true. I understand why your saying that. But that doesn't make your faith any less a religion. It has all the characteristics of a religion to fit the definition you posted. It is a religion. Christianity as a whole is classified as a religion with many denominations. Over 45,000. Which is an issue in and of itself.

 

Maybe something good for you to do to understand others points of view is to look at the various denominations within your own religion. Find out the differences and look up the scripture they use. You will find in a lot of cases that they do have scripture to support their differences. Not in all cases. Some churches like Seventh day Adventists, Mormons, or Jehovas witness add to the Bible and draw doctrinal beliefs from other books. But there are plenty of denominations that only use the Bible. And in some cases it will seem that it is a completely different church than what you are used to. But every one of them will say they have the right interpretation. 

 

In effect. That is what you are saying here on a much larger scale. Your religion is right because you have Jesus. 

 

 

3 hours ago, aik said:

we, me and you and almost everybody here, have the stronger evidence than those you have mentioned above. 

 

I will never deny what I felt the day I accepted Jesus and had my "salvation experience". The emotions are real and the feelings are real. It literally feels like the weight of the world and burden of sin was lifted off your shoulders. I know that, I experienced it. And for a long time that held me in the church. Even tho I was beginning to see contradictions and biblical fallacies within God's word. 

 

But now I know the mechanics of the experience. And it is repeatable outside of christ. Basically in the salvation experience a person is convinced by indoctrination and a well timed sermon that usually speaks to the person and triggers this event. Mentally they are put in a frame of mind that they are dying. The only difference is that in church it is a spiritual death. The effect is the same tho. This person feels like they are dying in sin. On top of that they feel unworthy of life. Because it is their fault they are dying in sin. And they aren't worthy of being saved. So this experience invokes a feeling of despair and worthlessness. Literally, for a normal person this could be the lowest feeling they ever feel in life. But a solution is offered. JESUS. Jesus was worthy and he is to take away your sins, save your life, and you will be a cherished child of God after you accept him as your lord and savior. 

 

So Christianity takes people to a feeling of despair and worthlessness, knowing they are dying in sin, to this grand state of mind of being free from sin and now being a child of God within minutes. 

 

The "salvation Experience" is the emotional hook of Christianity. And it is hard to get off that hook. It is something you felt. You experienced it. So you know it is true. Or atleast in your mind it is true because you felt it. 

 

I started out in an independent Baptist church. And had a burning desire to learn God's word. But while I studied I saw discrepancies. Between what was in the bible and what we practiced in the church. This set me up to be influenced by a holiness church. This church used a lot of apologetics to address the issues I saw in the bible. I really felt they had it all figured out. So I converted from the Baptist faith to theirs. (The Church of God of the Gospel Assembly) 

 

I also started having issues with what the Bible said in some parts of Genesis and what archeologist had discovered through the years. Like dinosaurs for instance. Or the simple fact that the tower of babel narrative is ridiculous. 

 

1. The construction of the tower would physically have crushed itself under its own weight if they had kept building. There is no way it would have been able to reach a cloud. Let alone heaven. It just wasn't physically possible. But in this narrative God is actually worried they are going to reach him. 

 

2. If it was such a big issue for God that we were building a tower to heaven. Why did he let us put satellites in space? Or rovers on Mars? 

 

It just didn't fit reality. 

 

As someone that believed that the Bible was inerrant, you can imagine how these issues affected me. For me it all needed to be true.

 

Eventually I couldn't deny what I was seeing any longer. I knew in my heart I had believed a lie for a very long time. And now I'm here. 

 

That is why your emotional appeals have no effect on me. I felt everything you felt and I know it was all in my head. Now I need proof. I had faith and faith failed. 

 

Dark Bishop

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, aik said:

So we together with my chief came to a conclusion that the statistics in such manner is absolutely useless. It does not show the real situation. Quantity means nothing, the same as I said years mean nothing.

 

 

Actually aik, quantity and years do mean something.

 

In the natural world we all inhabit.

 

But what you probably meant to say was that in a supernatural context, they mean nothing.

 

Which brings us right back to the problem I pointed out to you.

 

How are you going to persuade us about supernatural things when you are limited to natural ones here?

[aik]

2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Actually aik, quantity and years do mean something.

 

In the natural world we all inhabit.

 

But what you probably meant to say was that in a supernatural context, they mean nothing.

 

Which brings us right back to the problem I pointed out to you.

 

How are you going to persuade us about supernatural things when you are limited to natural ones here?

You're making things up. I shared the story with you to show that in a simple earthly situation, the quantitative statistics became useless. It showed that one has bunch of items but you cannot use it effectively to your own benefit. You cannot make money out from this bunch. Do you agree with it? I am saying about what we have here at my work.

[walterpthefirst]

17 minutes ago, aik said:

You're making things up. I shared the story with you to show that in a simple earthly situation, the quantitative statistics became useless. It showed that one has bunch of items but you cannot use it effectively to your own benefit. You cannot make money out from this bunch. Do you agree with it? I am saying about what we have here at my work.

 

And what you have at your work is no different from how your messages appear to us on our computer screens.

So, I do agree with your conclusion.  That both are examples of earthly, natural things - not supernatural things.

But as yet we have seen no evidence from you to support your supernatural claims.

 

Which I listed earlier.

 

1.  The existence of the supernatural.

2.  That you have strong evidence of the supernatural.

3.  That you have a supernatural relationship with Jesus.

 

And to persuade us of those you are obliged to use an earthly, natural means of communication. Words on a computer screen.  So, I repeat my earlier question to you.

 

How are you going to persuade us about supernatural things when you are limited to natural ones here?

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

@aik

 

Did you get the invitation to the opinion club?

 

[aik]

2 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

1. The construction of the tower would physically have crushed itself under its own weight if they had kept building. There is no way it would have been able to reach a cloud. Let alone heaven. It just wasn't physically possible. But in this narrative God is actually worried they are going to reach him. 

 

2. If it was such a big issue for God that we were building a tower to heaven. Why did he let us put satellites in space? Or rovers on Mars? 

 

I think scientist are right saying that the building would not bear itself in case if it is as high as clouds. The people were wrong thinking that they were able to build it, yes. But the problem there was not a building itself, the problem was arrogance in hearts of the people. A sin which had made Satan to be a satan. This is not about God being worried about the building, God saw sinful intensions of the  people and decided to stop them. For example arrogance in Sodom and Gomorra brought people to filthiness. Arrogance is the very sin. 

 

the second I want to mention, that we have no need to calculate how tall would be the building, how massive and so on. It is not the point at all here. Actually people were building before Noah, and after noah, and it never was a problem for God.

 

What for satellites, well they are the result of growing education of men. Education is a blessing if it is used for blessing. 

 

=============

You also said about Muhamed. Are you sure that the muslim is able to say the same about Muhamed as christians about relationships with Jesus? Can you show me that? How do you prove it to yourself?

[aik]

15 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

@aik

 

Did you get the invitation to the opinion club?

 

Yes, thank you. I even looked in it a lil bit. 

[aik]

16 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

The Buddha never said following him was a religion, either; he only said that following the eight-fold path would lead to enlightenment.  There are no practices or obligations required to practice Buddhism, only 5 basic precepts, which can be interpreted as loosely or as rigidly as the adherent chooses.

And since every sentient being has a Buddha spirit, the "relationship" aspect consists mainly of self-awareness.  

 

Do you agree, then, that Buddhism is as valid as christianity?

No, I don.t

[aik]

48 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

And what you have at your work is no different from how your messages appear to us on our computer screens.

So, I do agree with your conclusion.  That both are examples of earthly, natural things - not supernatural things.

But as yet we have seen no evidence from you to support your supernatural claims.

 

Which I listed earlier.

 

1.  The existence of the supernatural.

2.  That you have strong evidence of the supernatural.

3.  That you have a supernatural relationship with Jesus.

 

And to persuade us of those you are obliged to use an earthly, natural means of communication. Words on a computer screen.  So, I repeat my earlier question to you.

 

How are you going to persuade us about supernatural things when you are limited to natural ones here?

 

So do you agree now, that years mean nothing?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

11 minutes ago, aik said:

You also said about Muhamed. Are you sure that the muslim is able to say the same about Muhamed as christians about relationships with Jesus? Can you show me that? How do you prove it to yourself?

I will reply to the first part later. But I will quickly reply to this part now. I'm at work so don't have as much time. 

 

What I'm saying is that you are Christian. You feel a personal connection to Jesus. That is what your religion teaches. 

 

A Muslim may feel some type of personal relationship to God through the prophet muhamed. I can't be sure. As I've never practiced or believed in Islam.

 

A Wiccan will feel a personal connection to nature and their Goddess or God's. This is something I've had experience with in my teenage years. It wasn't like what I felt when I was Christian. But It also didn't feel demonic like Christians think. It was just a different mind set. 

 

People of every religion feel a personal connection to something. Whether its a God, Person, Place, or thing. 

 

DB

[Myrkhoos]

      "Religion" is a word with many definitions, even in the realm of academic religious studies, so much so that even some academics avoid it. If you yourself do not know koine Greek and I century palestinian aramaic you basically have no idea what words Jesus even used as present in the text. You use translations and your own definition of the word.

        About evidence, the same thing again. Natural and supernatural again. So many times I have seen people come in with their own system of definitions and argue from them, as if everybody 1. knows them 2. accepts them. Please try to present in a simple way your own beliefs and how you acquired them.

[aik]

35 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

 

What I'm saying is that you are Christian. You feel a personal connection to Jesus. That is what your religion teaches. 

 

 

Bishop,

 

I feel a personal connection to Jesus not because my religion teaches. But previously Jesus came and saved me when I was a sinner, not believer, yet I knew that He was a saviour to every man, then after aaaafter that I learned about teachings from the Bible and church.

 

I have just finished my work here, And it is 9:30 pm. 

 

See you, Bishop. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

55 minutes ago, aik said:

No, I don.t

Then you will need to provide a better standard for claiming that christianity is not a religion; and also provide a compelling reason as to why a person should choose christianity over any other set of beliefs or philosophy of life.

[walterpthefirst]

5 hours ago, aik said:

So do you agree now, that years mean nothing?

 

No.  You are taking my comments out of context.

 

In a natural and earthly context years have their natural and earthly meaning.

 

They do not mean nothing in that particular context.

 

However, you may believe that years mean nothing in a supernatural context.

 

But so what?

 

Thus far you have not produced a single item of persuasive evidence that the supernatural exists.

 

When you can do that, then we might agree with you about years meaning nothing in a supernatural context.

 

Until then we are at liberty to dismiss your unsupported assertions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 hours ago, aik said:

Bishop,

 

I feel a personal connection to Jesus not because my religion teaches. But previously Jesus came and saved me when I was a sinner, not believer, yet I knew that He was a saviour to every man, then after aaaafter that I learned about teachings from the Bible and church.

 

I have just finished my work here, And it is 9:30 pm. 

 

See you, Bishop. 

AIK,

 

That is exactly what the Christian is taught. The whole new testament is about it. This is just one verse of many showing a personal relationship with Jesus.

 

I use king James version, AIK. If it doesn't translate well for you, I will always post the book chapter and verse so you can look it up in your Bible. 

 

John 15

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

 

It is taught not only that you will have a personal relationship with him but that that personal relationship is necessary for salvation. 

 

Let's back up a chapter.

 

John 14

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

Not only is a personal relationship talked about in Christianity. But it is taught that it is a necessity to get to heaven. From childhood people are groomed to accept this. 

 

I completely understand that you feel like you have a personal connection with Jesus. You had the salvation experience that we spoke about earlier. 

 

You can say that it isn't because your religion teaches it. But your religion does stress the importance of a personal relationship with Jesus to the point that any other outcome means you go to hell. 

 

So in light of that. What else could you believe? If you didn't believe on Jesus then eternal torment was to be your future. Is that really a choice at all?

 

If I tell my son he can either eat his vegetables or go walk on a bed of hot coals. What do you think he is going to do? Even if he doesn't like the vegetables. He is going to eat the vegetables. 

 

What I'm asking you to do is realize that if someone else is Indoctrinated from birth to believe in something else. Most likely they are going to feel a personal connection with whatever that happens to be. Whether it is Jesus, Allah, Zeus, or Santa clause. 

 

 

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

5 hours ago, aik said:

 

I feel a personal connection to Jesus not because my religion teaches.

 

This is exactly the problem you have to overcome, aik.

 

Your personal connection to Jesus is not something that you can share with us directly.

 

Nobody can directly share their personal, subjective experiences with another person.

 

Nobody can step directly into another person's mind and know their thoughts.

 

Nobody can feel what another person feels in their heart.

 

The only way that can be done is by language - either by the spoken word, by images or in writing.

 

And you are limited to doing your best here using only writing.

 

You can only report it to us second-hand.

 

 

But why should we believe you?

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

7 hours ago, aik said:

But the problem there was not a building itself, the problem was arrogance in hearts of the people. A sin which had made Satan to be a satan. This is not about God being worried about the building, God saw sinful intensions of the  people and decided to stop them. For example arrogance in Sodom and Gomorra brought people to filthiness. Arrogance is the very sin. 

 

Ok. Let me get back to the tower of babel. Why don't we look at the scripture?

 

 

Genesis 11

1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

 

When I talk about the bible. If there is some discrepancies between me and another person, I like to show the scripture so we can get on the same page. 

 

Let's dissect this scripture. Verses 1 - 4 describe a people of one language that had come together and wanted to build a city with a tower to make a name for themselves. 

 

Where does that reflect sin? Many people have come together to build cities to make a name for themselves. And towers to go in them. Look at Dubai. But God did nothing to them. 

 

You said it was because of sin. Because of arrogance. But that isn't what the Bible says. Anything other than what the Bible says is speculation. What did the Bible say?

 

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

 

The sole purpose of God's reason was because he did not want man to be able to come together. He says that if they come together nothing will be restrained from them. They were achieving to much through their unity. 

 

Anything else is speculation. The Bible doesn't say he did it because of their sin. But because of their ability to achieve great things. This indicates that he thought that they could build this tower. And he didn't want them to. 

 

It also implies that he felt threatened by their ability to do this.

 

Just as he felt threatened by the possibility of them eating of the tree of life and living forever like him. 

 

But we know now that a tower to heaven, made of bricks and mortar, would crush under its own weight. 

 

I'm just going to be real about this AIK.

 

This is an obvious fable to explain to an ancient people why people speak different languages. I was able to see this even when I was Christian. This was one of those discrepancies between scripture and reality that can't be resolved. 

 

People have different languages because they developed their languages in different areas of the world. They were already separated. It had nothing to do with God. But they didn't understand that 4000 years ago. We do now. 

 

One thing this story does have right tho. When the human race comes together. We can just about accomplish anything we set our minds to. We have achieved things that the writers of this story wouldn't have been able to imagine. Russia has achieved far more than these people with their city and their tower. 

 

DB

[LogicalFallacy]

On 11/13/2022 at 3:34 PM, aik said:

@Hierophant your account picture shows that you never new Jesus, my friend. 

 

And we are off to a rip-roaring start with a no True Scotsman as the entree. 

 

What's next - that claim that we really really believe in God but are just pretending we don't?

[aik]

10 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

And we are off to a rip-roaring start with a no True Scotsman as the entree. 

 

What's next - that claim that we really really believe in God but are just pretending we don't?

It is written there that Jesus is coming in to save one from a punishment which Jesus will apply if we don't let him in. Right?

[aik]

2 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Ok. Let me get back to the tower of babel. Why don't we look at the scripture?

 

 

Genesis 11

1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

 

When I talk about the bible. If there is some discrepancies between me and another person, I like to show the scripture so we can get on the same page. 

 

Let's dissect this scripture. Verses 1 - 4 describe a people of one language that had come together and wanted to build a city with a tower to make a name for themselves. 

 

Where does that reflect sin? Many people have come together to build cities to make a name for themselves. And towers to go in them. Look at Dubai. But God did nothing to them. 

 

You said it was because of sin. Because of arrogance. But that isn't what the Bible says. Anything other than what the Bible says is speculation. What did the Bible say?

 

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

 

The sole purpose of God's reason was because he did not want man to be able to come together. He says that if they come together nothing will be restrained from them. They were achieving to much through their unity. 

 

Anything else is speculation. The Bible doesn't say he did it because of their sin. But because of their ability to achieve great things. This indicates that he thought that they could build this tower. And he didn't want them to. 

 

It also implies that he felt threatened by their ability to do this.

 

Just as he felt threatened by the possibility of them eating of the tree of life and living forever like him. 

 

But we know now that a tower to heaven, made of bricks and mortar, would crush under its own weight. 

 

I'm just going to be real about this AIK.

 

This is an obvious fable to explain to an ancient people why people speak different languages. I was able to see this even when I was Christian. This was one of those discrepancies between scripture and reality that can't be resolved. 

 

People have different languages because they developed their languages in different areas of the world. They were already separated. It had nothing to do with God. But they didn't understand that 4000 years ago. We do now. 

 

One thing this story does have right tho. When the human race comes together. We can just about accomplish anything we set our minds to. We have achieved things that the writers of this story wouldn't have been able to imagine. Russia has achieved far more than these people with their city and their tower. 

 

DB

You mentioned the tree of life. So I ask you now the I will give an answer to your investigation. 

 

What was the reason Adam took a fruit and ate it, knowing that he had everything, he had no need in food, he had no lack of health, property, wealth, glory. And God planted so many trees in the garden, and the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of what is good and what is bad. And God forbid eating a fruit from the tree of knowledge. Why Adam was unable to keep the commandment?

[aik]

3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

This is exactly the problem you have to overcome, aik.

 

Your personal connection to Jesus is not something that you can share with us directly.

 

Nobody can directly share their personal, subjective experiences with another person.

 

Nobody can step directly into another person's mind and know their thoughts.

 

Nobody can feel what another person feels in their heart.

 

The only way that can be done is by language - either by the spoken word, by images or in writing.

 

And you are limited to doing your best here using only writing.

 

You can only report it to us second-hand.

 

 

But why should we believe you?

 

 

Look my friend. It is not what I was saying. My point was the reason of my connection with Jesus is not the teaching or idea. The reason is what Jesus has done. 

 

Do you understand what I mean?