The tower of Babel

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

35 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Yes, the writers of the Bible were ignorant about a lot of things.  But they were extremely shrewd when it came to scaring and manipulating human beings through fear.  How those primitive people figured that out is a mystery that came to my mind recently.

 

Hey Weezer,

 

I recently posted a thread about how I perceive the salvation experience as a form of belittling or gas lighting. You may have replied on that thread. I can't remember. But I'm sure you can see the correlation. Making someone believe they are guilty of some horrible thing (sin) and are destined for hell. Making them beg for forgiveness and salvation. And then making them think that their sin has been forgiven by Jesus and heaven will be their home. 

 

It is an extremely emotional experience and while going through it a person does feel like something happened. But it is really just the swing from believing that your condemned and then having that condemnation lifted. Much like what a death row inmate might feel if strapped to an electric chair and they recieve a last minute stay of execution. 

 

Do you think the salvation experience may have been designed to be like that? That they developed it to make it more extreme over time? Or maybe it is just a byproduct of the belief itself? Right now I think it was either designed to be that way from the beginning or they developed it to be a more extreme experience over time. More than likely the latter. 

 

DB

[aik]

@DarkBishophello my friend,

 

Sometimes I feel like you are an actor, who plays his role of an ex-christian, who in real life never was a christian, but has come in here to do his job.   but of course i deny such a thought, because it is unreasonable. 

 

Why do you feel so offended when I said that you were ignorant about a certain thing? You showed that the word means a lack of knowledge. So it means that only a man who thinks of himself to know everything, to be all knowing, can be offended. Do you think that you have all knowledge? Looking at the way of your thinking I see that you are a normal human who does not think about himself to know everything. So yes, in this very point, i.e. thoughts of forefathers about God's creation for example, you are ignorant. Have you read all works of them? I don't think so. There is many things in which I am ignorant also, it does not push me down in my eyes, because I am just a human. So look what I meant.

 

I started to look for you some information about what fathers of the church thought on creation, earth etc. It was very interesting for me to have found a book of Basil of Ceasaria with such a difficult name "Hexaemeron". I never read this before, but having read few lines it has become so interesting to me. 

 

The Book is divided by Homilies. So in Homily 1 he refutes philosophy of that time about rest of earth (earth does not move). So he brings some arguments against such a wrong understading as that the earth does not move and it is placed at the centre of the universe. Sure we can see that the author, Basil, he also does not know about the earth as we know it today, because of lack of technology and so on, but what we can see in this Homily 1 is that Basil was sure that those philosophers who claimed wrong things about earth and heaven were wrong. I mean that Basil was sure that the philosophers were wrong, as we today prove it by the use of technologies. It shows that this christian was a thinking christian. And looking at Genesis 1 he could not agree with stupid understanding of ancient philosophers, but he was trying to keep himself in limits of what the Bible said. Again I say, that he as well could not know what we know today, but somehow he was sure that the real things were different from what they had at that time. 

 

Did you know it?

 

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/32011.htm

 

I think that in the church we can find various opinions, from the ones true to heresies. If we take into account that we are just men, human beings, it becomes obvious that we can simply be ignorant or make mistakes. But I see that you here are unable to think that atheists also simply make a mistake. 

 

I do not fight against science. Science is not a problem for a believing christian. Otherwise we would not be able to have so many believers among scientists. The only fact that scientists can be believing in God says to us that the science is not a problem between me and you. 

 

We have here a war between atheism and faith in Christ. Atheism has nothing to do with science, it only uses science to cover its filthiness and stupidity. The word stupid does not mean not knowing something, we should not think that stupidity and ignorance are synonyms. According to the Bible one of definitions of stupidity is denying God's existence and his advice. 

 

I want for all of you to know, that by leaving Jesus you did not move forward, but you fell from faith, and you fell into hands of the Liar, who told you that Bible is wrong. So the choice is yours. To move on with faith, or live with doubts. You are in doubts it is obvious. And another thing is obvious to me also, that the Holy Spirit works hard on some of you, my friends.  The Holy Ghost has something to tell you different from what the devil has told you. 

 

I am under indoctrination of the Holy Spirit, but you are under indoctrination of the Liar. I am not insulted when you say that i am ignorant. 

 

Finally, take into account that the Bible is not a scientific book. Purpose of God was not giving information about science to the human. Purpose was to bring them to faith. By faith people could change the reality, by faith miracles happened. I know myself that serious surgeons here believe that there is God and there can happen miracles, they are not believers but they are afraid of denying God's existence. By faith God can break physical laws, can change it for an occasion. But the faith is not for miracles only, basically the faith is for unification with God. That is why God has chosen to lead people through faith. The faith is for dying in fight against sin, not only saying that a sin is a bad thing, but dying in fight against it. 

 

Maybe some pastors use their positions for hurting people, maybe some of them are sinful persons. They have made their choice. But did Jesus deceive someone? Did Jesus deceive you? 

 

I want to help you to change your mind against atheism, because atheism has left you without God. You think that the Bible must be accurate in scientific information, that you have today. The Bible must be correct in guiding to God, in which it is. You can come to this knowledge only through faith. 

 

Do you remember what Jesus answered to those who were asking for signs and miracles? Couldn't he make one for them? He did so many miracles, couldn't he do one more? 

 

Maybe you are angry not on me but on God? Dear Bishop.

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

58 minutes ago, aik said:

 

I want to help you to change your mind against atheism, because atheism has left you without God. You think that the Bible must be accurate in scientific information, that you have today. The Bible must be correct in guiding to God, in which it is. You can come to this knowledge only through faith. 

 

Do you remember what Jesus answered to those who were asking for signs and miracles? Couldn't he make one for them? He did so many miracles, couldn't he do one more? 

Now Aik, why did it take me voicing my frustration with being called ignorant for you to come back? Don't worry about it. I'm glad your back. You said a couple of times that the Bible is not a book of science that it is to guide us to faith. 

 

Do you admit that there are some things that the biblical authors were also ignorant about? And that that is reflected in what we read?

 

DB

[aik]

23 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Now Aik, why did it take me voicing my frustration with being called ignorant for you to come back? Don't worry about it. I'm glad your back. You said a couple of times that the Bible is not a book of science that it is to guide us to faith. 

 

Do you admit that there are some things that the biblical authors were also ignorant about? And that that is reflected in what we read?

 

DB

 I make a conclusion upon what i saw in movies, and heard from people, that americans can be insulted even because a mosquito flies in a wrong place, and it violates one's private area. I maybe wrong, but it seems like that. 

 

There were some things that the biblical authors were ignorant. But Paul says that they were not speaking of themselves but what God revealed. So the authors avoided to write there in the Bible there own thoughts. It means that there ignorance was not reflected in the Bible, but the opposite. They wrote what they had known for sure. 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 minutes ago, aik said:

But Paul says that they were not speaking of themselves but what God revealed

 

I have a feeling that Paul may have been talking about different context than the issues we are discussing. Your talking about what Paul said about the Law. Right? 

 

If we are going to say Paul said this. Or Paul said that. We should probably make sure it is in context. What scripture of Paul's are you referring to?

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, aik said:

Did you know it?

 

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/32011.htm

 

It is obvious that this person believes that Moses wrote Genesis. Do you also believe Moses wrote Genesis?

 

DB

[aik]

8 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I have a feeling that Paul may have been talking about different context than the issues we are discussing. Your talking about what Paul said about the Law. Right? 

 

If we are going to say Paul said this. Or Paul said that. We should probably make sure it is in context. What scripture of Paul's are you referring to?

 

DB

1 thess. 2:4

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

4 hours ago, aik said:

1 thess. 2:4

For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain:

2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.

3 For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:

4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:

 

Thats what I thought. Your taking that scripture out of context. Paul isn't even talking about the author/authors of Genesis. He is talking about himself and the apostles preaching the Gospel of Christ. 

 

Revealed to them by God the Father. 

 

6 hours ago, aik said:

Did you know it?

 

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/32011.htm

 

This link is ridiculous. But it does look like something you would like. It basically repeats what you say here. "It doesn't matter what men actually discover. It only matters what is written in the bible because that is all the proof you need. The words of God."

 

To that I have to disagree. I am sure that if someone told you the sky was purple you would look out a window to see this event for yourself. When you went to the window it would be blue. If they said it again you might go look again. Maybe with them this time. And it is still blue. The third time this person says the sky is purple you may just call them a liar. 

 

You would prove what you were told. You wouldn't just take it by faith that the sky is purple and tell your friends the next day the sky was purple would you?

 

It is a good thing that you would do this. So you don't sound like an insane person. But you do this with the Bible. Most Christians do. 

 

The bible says different languages came from babel. So it must be true. Even though they have dug artifacts left behind over the centuries that show language changing with time and independently from one another in some cases. 

 

I think You will not accept anything against the bible because of fear. You are afraid to question what it says because if you do your afraid that might be enough to put you in danger of Hell. 

 

How about this. In sticking with the topic of this thread. Show me something outside of the Bible that archeologists have found which indicate that languages were changed in an instant and that that change happened in the middle east. 

 

That would have been a huge change for the human species. Families would have had to migrate with people of the same language. Stories would have been written about it outside of the canaanite religions. There would have to be some objective proof outside of the Bible if that truly happened. 

 

I'm challenging you. It shouldn't be to hard to find objective evidence for such a drastic event in human history. It should be reflected in every culture around the world to some degree or another. 

 

DB

[◊ Weezer ◊]

9 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Do you think the salvation experience may have been designed to be like that? That they developed it to make it more extreme over time? Or maybe it is just a byproduct of the belief itself? Right now I think it was either designed to be that way from the beginning or they developed it to be a more extreme experience over time. More than likely the latter. 

 

I had never thought along those lines.  But off the top of my head, the bible wasn't written by one person, or group.  So I don't think there was planning of strategy over several hundred years.  It is a collection of writings made by several sources over many years, and there was discussion and argument over which writings went into it.  And there seems to be pretty stark change from the old to the new testaments. 

 

I have no idea how they came up with the idea of an afterlife and a salvation plan in the new testament.  Perhaps it reflects the increasing sophistication of human thinking??  And the moral evolution of humans??  (with the message of love and forgiveness from jesus)  

 

And the tie-in of the new testament with the old, was a sloppy job as far as I'm concerned.

 

It almost seems like the whole bible was a hodge podge of ideas that a group got from many different sources, and put together a new version of religion.  Some of it was almost plagiarized from earlier religions, and perhaps some ideas lifted from early history??

 

 

[Astreja]

11 hours ago, aik said:

I am under indoctrination of the Holy Spirit, but you are under indoctrination of the Liar.

 

Um... isn't this getting frightfully close to committing the Unforgivable Sin, Aik?  If you can't prove this accusation empirically, it would be wise for you to retract it.

[aik]

9 minutes ago, Astreja said:

 

Um... isn't this getting frightfully close to committing the Unforgivable Sin, Aik?  If you can't prove this accusation empirically, it would be wise for you to retract it.

Bishop know why I am saying this. As the muslim are used to say, and I will: "Bishop knows best"! 

 

Previously I had a post here abouit indoctrination.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

6 hours ago, Astreja said:

 

Um... isn't this getting frightfully close to committing the Unforgivable Sin, Aik?  If you can't prove this accusation empirically, it would be wise for you to retract it.

He's just saying we are both indoctrinated. Him by the Holy Ghost and us by the father of lies, Satan himself.

 

Both creatures invented in the imagination of ancient men. 

 

@aik

Are you still looking for evidence on the tower of babel narrative?

 

DB

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

8 hours ago, Weezer said:

had never thought along those lines.  But off the top of my head, the bible wasn't written by one person, or group.  So I don't think there was planning of strategy over several hundred years. 

Ok well now I'm a little confused. I was replying to what you said before. Maybe I was misunderstanding your words. 

 

"Yes, the writers of the Bible were ignorant about a lot of things.  But they were extremely shrewd when it came to scaring and manipulating human beings through fear.  How those primitive people figured that out is a mystery that came to my mind recently."

 

I was building upon what you said here about the writers manipulating humans through fear. 

 

Do you think that was intended from the start. Or built upon over time to make it more intense?

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 12/18/2022 at 3:03 PM, aik said:

Sometimes I feel like you are an actor, who plays his role of an ex-christian, who in real life never was a christian, but has come in here to do his job.   but of course i deny such a thought, because it is unreasonable. 

If you deny such unreasonable thoughts why even mention them? 

 

There are people I've befriended in real life that are members here. So they know I am me. Just behind a screen name here but still me. 

 

I do deal with left over baggage from my Christian experience. You were right when you said 

 

On 12/18/2022 at 3:03 PM, aik said:

Maybe you are angry not on me but on God? Dear Bishop

 

I can't be angry at a mythical being. But I am angry. I'm angry at some things that happened during my Christian walk. I'm angry with the beliefs I supported. I'm angry that it felt so real and in the end was a lie.

 

I'm sure your even getting frustrated not seeing any evidence of the tower of babel narrative aren't you? What is there, just isn't dated far enough back is it?

 

It sucks when God let's ya down when your just trying to do his work doesn't it?

 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Ok @aik

 

I'm going to wrap this up and ask the moderators to lock this thread as I don't want to take away from yours and @TABA conversation that he started. And I think if you had found anything concrete to prove the tower of babel existed you probably would have brought that up by now. 

 

Sometimes the Lack of evidence is all the evidence you need to prove an argument.

 

The Bible gives specific places where artifacts should be. So when archeologists first started searching for biblical artifacts, what do you think they used? If you said the bible you would be right. If your still trying to say all they want to do is disprove Gods word. Well..... you're wrong!

 

So you're not going to find any proof for the biblical tower of babel. What you will find is evidence for a tower built in Babylon that was credited to non-other than Nebuchadnezzar II. I'm sure you would agree that this can't be the right tower. We know it wasn't built by nebuchadnezzar according to the Bible.

 

Here is an article written by a Christian that highlights that specific problem.

 

https://www.patternsofevidence.com/2017/05/24/spectacular-new-tower-of-babel-discovery-not-so-fast/

 

The reason you won't find evidence for the biblical tower of Babel is because it never existed. Didn't happen. That is what happens when something written is a work of fiction and you think it is fact. There is nothing to prove it is real. Except what is written. 

 

However, it could be that the Tower of Babel was written into the Bible after the babylonian captivity. Thats what I believe probably happened. But I don't expect you to believe that. The writers of the Bible were notorious for doing just that type of thing. They probably saw the tower in Babylon and assumed it had always been there. So they wrote it into their beliefs later,  making up a story for the different languages of the world. Setting it back closer to creation.

 

It is this exact lack of evidence that finally destroyed my faith. I believe I already told you about that. What I tried to find was evidence for the exodus. Guess what. That isn't there either. It didn't happen. The plagues of Egypt, didn't happen, the death of the first born, didn't happen, the 2 million plus people being freed and wandering the desert for 40 years, Nope didn't happen. Archeologists went to the places mentioned in the bible trying to find remnants of the journey. And it wasn't there. Because it didn't happen. If it had happened there would have been a massive amount of artifacts left behind. Broken pots, holes dug for the tabernacle, fire pits, toys left by children,  places where they fed and kept their livestock. Thats the way it works when people lived and occupied areas. They find areas like that where Indians lived her in the U.S.A. all over the country. 

 

We can go on and on, pointing out the absence of proof where there should be proof. A world wide flood, Noah's ark, the biblical creation of earth, the tower of babel, the exodus, the wanderings of Abraham, Sodom, Gomorrah, even the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ CANNOT be support outside the bible. If it were all true, it all should be able to be supported outside the bible. But it isn't. 

 

I know you will never concede failure so I am considering the lack of objective evidence you have offered as a victory for my various arguments. If you had been able to find anything which could have proven all of these stories were real you would have laid it on the table over the past month. Instead you have only offered your feelings and what the Bible says. 

 

I want you to know that I appreciate the time you have taken out of your busy life to talk about all this. If you do happen to find something that supports your views, feel free to send me a message and we can have the moderators open the thread back up for further discussion. Until then I will bid you farewell on this thread and look forward to reading your discussion with Taba. 

 

Sincerely,

 

Dark Bishop 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

15 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

I'm going to wrap this up and ask the moderators to lock this thread