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The tower of Babel


DarkBishop
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where can I open a new topic in the Forum? Could you help me please?

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Aik, look for the + sign at the top and select Topic.  Then you’ll need to select the forum (Lions Den, presumably) and give your topic a title.  Let me know if you have problems.

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36 minutes ago, TABA said:

Aik, look for the + sign at the top and select Topic.  Then you’ll need to select the forum (Lions Den, presumably) and give your topic a title.  Let me know if you have problems.

Thanks TABA,

 

But I have found such an explanation.

image.thumb.png.9c75ece9542934960a80cc5940a6d9c5.png

Is it true or a fantasy? And if it is true, so what does it mean actually?

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Perhaps TABA will understand what you are asking, but I don't understand your question. 

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26 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Perhaps TABA will understand what you are asking, but I don't understand your question. 

I think he is wanting to know the rules on posting in the lions den. And what type of posts to expect between the two forums?? Not sure. 

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2 hours ago, aik said:

where can I open a new topic in the Forum? Could you help me please?

You might also use the "Start New Topic" feature within the forum listing.

 

 

Screenshot_20221119-015254_Chrome.jpg

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3 hours ago, aik said:

Who made Esau to agree to sell his birthright, i.e. firstborn's right, to Jacob?

Surely a question of the ages; and I don't want to intrude too far into your conversation with Walt.  But, it seems to me that if god had already decided to hate Esau from the beginning, long before Esau was even born, then god also ensured that Esau would make that choice.  You do believe that god has a plan, yes?  And that god is in control and everything happens according to god's plan, yes?  You further believe the scripture that says god knows us before we are even formed in our mother's womb. 

 

So, Esau's "choice" wasn't really a choice at all.  It simply happened according to god's plan.  It was god's will for Esau to make the choice he made; and, just as god hardened Pharaoh's heart in Exodus, leaving him no choice but to defy god, so the same with Esau.  He really didn't have a choice in the matter, not a genuine and legitimate choice, anyway.  

 

This also touches on god's omniscience.  We are invited to believe that god already knows everything there ever will be that can be known.  But if every choice you will ever make is already known beforehand, then you are not really making a choice, you are simply doing what god has already determined you will do.  Like an actor reading a script, nothing more.

 

Don't let the bible fool you by saying Esau had a choice to make and he made the wrong one.  There are plenty of instances where the bible doesn't mean what it says; and plenty more where it doesn't say what it means.

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7 hours ago, aik said:

But I have found such an explanation.

image.thumb.png.9c75ece9542934960a80cc5940a6d9c5.png

Is it true or a fantasy? And if it is true, so what does it mean actually?


He was just pointing out that topics in the Lions Den can get a bit rowdy, since it’s generally one christian going back and forth with multiple ex-christians in a free-for-all environment.  The Colosseum, on the other hand, is for more formal one-on-one debate, which would be more orderly and maybe a “higher quality” debate experience.  

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10 hours ago, aik said:

If you allow me, I will also be short here. As short as I can.

 

The sin of the Babel tower designers and constructors (or contractors LOL) was the breach of the Lord's commandment to Japeth. To be scattered. God said Be scattered, they say We will not. God says Bear children and be multiplied, people say We don't want to have many children. God says Stop and refer to the ways of ancient times and go back to them, People say, We will not. 

 

I feel like I struck a nerve with you. Remember AIK, you came here and opened yourself up to talk to us. Dark Bishop isn't the problem here. The Bible is. I'm not telling you anything that isn't in the bible.

 

Short answers are not usually the best answers when it comes to stuff like this. Do you know what it means to grasp at straws? It is a metaphor common to where I live. Basically if your falling off of a cliff. And try to grasp at straws your holding out hope that you will grasp something that will keep you from falling. But there are only straws of grass and they aren't strong enough to keep you from falling. Your argument is failing and your grasping at whatever you can to support your view but it isn't working.

 

I showed you the scripture already where Nimrod was a mighty hunter before the Lord and one of his kingdoms was Babel. Ill post the scripture again. 

 

On 11/18/2022 at 9:01 AM, DarkBishop said:

Genesis 10

 

8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.

10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

 

You said that they had sinned because they weren't scattered as God commanded Japeth. That is where you are grasping at straws. Here Nimrod had 4 kingdoms in the land of shinar. That was just Nimrod. Who was a Grandson of Ham. Not Japeth. 

 

Genesis 10

6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

7 And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabtechah: and the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan.

8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.

10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,

12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city.

 

If you will notice there were 8 cities just in these few scriptures for the decendants of one of Noah's sons. 

 

That looks pretty scattered to me even though they weren't the children of Japeth. Could you show me where God commanded Japeth and his people to be scattered? And not build cities? An assertion like that needs to have scripture attached to it.

 

He commanded the whole human species to subdue the earth. 

 

Genesis 1

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 

Would this city not have been Nimrods people subduing the earth?

 

I'm still having a hard time seeing where there was a valid reason for God to confound the languages. 

 

10 hours ago, aik said:

 

I agree with all the staff about the languages. I know that topic (languages). But the point of the story is not the language. It is only a kid who thinks that the story of the Babel tower tells us about the languages. 

 

This is kind of offensive AIK. Don't get upset friend. And don't make a reference to me having the intellect of a child. Your better than that. Don't let your frustration override your kindness that you came in here with. Your not going to lead anyone to Jesus by telling me "only a child would think it was only about the languages". 

 

In a way your right, but your not. When a preacher uses this scripture they usually say something like what you have been saying. That they had lifted up their hearts against God and they were trying to be greater than God. Or something to that effect. So when you hear it preached, I agree, they make it sound like there was so much more involved to it than God confusing the languages.

 

But that's just not true. Read the scripture. Everything you have said and preachers have said about the reason God confused the languages is pure speculation. And this is why, if they don't add to this story and explain why God did it. Then it makes God look bad. There was really no reason for God to confuse the languages. A mighty man before the Lord was building the city. He wasn't a sinner. The Bible only says good things about Nimrod. But God looked down. Saw what they were doing. He didn't like that they were able to accomplish so much. And decided to mess it up for them by confusing their languages. 

 

That is it. That is the only reason given. God just didn't like them being so successful. 

 

This story does not reflect reality. It was written by people of an ancient culture that were making up stories to explain things they really didn't understand. And that was common. People didn't understand things like volcanoes, famine, plague, or drought. If they didn't understand it. They thought either a God was doing it or that God could help them fix the problem. So they made sacrifices to whatever God they worshipped. Sometimes human sacrifice. And they made up stories about why a spider spins a web. Or why people speak different languages. That is all this is. A myth. 

 

If you're ready to move on we can go to the creation of the earth. Because that is the next most obvious myth on the list. But if you want to keep talking about Babel we can. Its up to you. 

 

Dark Bishop

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1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I feel like I struck a nerve with you. Remember AIK, you came here and opened yourself up to talk to us. Dark Bishop isn't the problem here. The Bible is. I'm not telling you anything that isn't in the bible.

 

Short answers are not usually the best answers when it comes to stuff like this. Do you know what it means to grasp at straws? It is a metaphor common to where I live. Basically if your falling off of a cliff. And try to grasp at straws your holding out hope that you will grasp something that will keep you from falling. But there are only straws of grass and they aren't strong enough to keep you from falling. Your argument is failing and your grasping at whatever you can to support your view but it isn't working.

 

I showed you the scripture already where Nimrod was a mighty hunter before the Lord and one of his kingdoms was Babel. Ill post the scripture again. 

 

 

You said that they had sinned because they weren't scattered as God commanded Japeth. That is where you are grasping at straws. Here Nimrod had 4 kingdoms in the land of shinar. That was just Nimrod. Who was a Grandson of Ham. Not Japeth. 

 

Genesis 10

6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

7 And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabtechah: and the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan.

8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.

10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,

12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city.

 

If you will notice there were 8 cities just in these few scriptures for the decendants of one of Noah's sons. 

 

That looks pretty scattered to me even though they weren't the children of Japeth. Could you show me where God commanded Japeth and his people to be scattered? And not build cities? An assertion like that needs to have scripture attached to it.

 

He commanded the whole human species to subdue the earth. 

 

Genesis 1

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 

Would this city not have been Nimrods people subduing the earth?

 

I'm still having a hard time seeing where there was a valid reason for God to confound the languages. 

 

 

This is kind of offensive AIK. Don't get upset friend. And don't make a reference to me having the intellect of a child. Your better than that. Don't let your frustration override your kindness that you came in here with. Your not going to lead anyone to Jesus by telling me "only a child would think it was only about the languages". 

 

In a way your right, but your not. When a preacher uses this scripture they usually say something like what you have been saying. That they had lifted up their hearts against God and they were trying to be greater than God. Or something to that effect. So when you hear it preached, I agree, they make it sound like there was so much more involved to it than God confusing the languages.

 

But that's just not true. Read the scripture. Everything you have said and preachers have said about the reason God confused the languages is pure speculation. And this is why, if they don't add to this story and explain why God did it. Then it makes God look bad. There was really no reason for God to confuse the languages. A mighty man before the Lord was building the city. He wasn't a sinner. The Bible only says good things about Nimrod. But God looked down. Saw what they were doing. He didn't like that they were able to accomplish so much. And decided to mess it up for them by confusing their languages. 

 

That is it. That is the only reason given. God just didn't like them being so successful. 

 

This story does not reflect reality. It was written by people of an ancient culture that were making up stories to explain things they really didn't understand. And that was common. People didn't understand things like volcanoes, famine, plague, or drought. If they didn't understand it. They thought either a God was doing it or that God could help them fix the problem. So they made sacrifices to whatever God they worshipped. Sometimes human sacrifice. And they made up stories about why a spider spins a web. Or why people speak different languages. That is all this is. A myth. 

 

If you're ready to move on we can go to the creation of the earth. Because that is the next most obvious myth on the list. But if you want to keep talking about Babel we can. Its up to you. 

 

Dark Bishop

We are staying here, with Nimrod and you. But you have to be patient with me, my friend. I will answer later. 

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11 hours ago, aik said:

A number of times you repeat the same words that Adam and Eve did not know what was good and evil.

Take your time. I will be patient. Just responding to this one as well. 

 

I repeat it because it's a good point. We are taught in church that Adam and Eve did such a bad thing by listening to the serpent and eating the fruit. But we nor the preachers take into account that these weren't two people like you or I. These were people that would have had the education level of children at best because they were one of gods new creations on his newly formed earth. They were also unable to know right from wrong at this point. According to the story. 

 

Yet you assert that they didn't need to know right from wrong. Why? When you make a decision to do something. Do you not weigh whether it is the right thing to do or not before making the decision?

 

The story shows that they could not have done that. 

 

But I've been talking about Adam and Eve so long it is getting boring. This would be about the fourth thread that we have been talking about this issue with Adam and Eve. 

 

I really don't feel like explaining how God had a responsibility to protect Adam and Eve from the serpent more than Adam and Eve had a responsibility to follow God's commandment. 

 

God left them alone in a Garden with a being that the Bible portrays as being almost as powerful as God himself. Why would God just throw two new unsuspecting humans to the wolves like that? They didn't have the Holy ghost to guide them. They didn't have God's knowledge or wisdom like Solomon. They didn't even know right from wrong. God left them alone, defenseless, in the presence of a fallen angel that God knew wanted to make them fall. 

 

Why? 

 

Because they were trying to answer questions they didn't know the answer to. Just like in the tower of Babel. This is their myth to explain a few things. A myth doesn't have to be logical and usually can't be logical to us. It is based on primitive intelligence compared to what we have now. 

 

So here are some of the things this myth explains.

 

1. Why snakes don't have legs and crawl on the ground.

 

Genesis 3

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

2. Why women have pain in child birth and why they are to be in subjection to their husband's. 

 

Genesis 3

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

 

3. Why men have to toil the earth for food and why weeds grow up to fight against their efforts. 

 

Genesis 3

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

4. This also explained how they knew right from wrong and set the stage to blame all evil in the bible on the sin of Adam. and of course the devil. That old serpent. 

 

This is the basis for the whole Bible.  Wouldnt you agree? If Adam hadn't sinned in the garden then none of what God had predestined for his son Jesus would have happened. 

 

And for the jews if this hadn't happened there would have been no need for the mosaic laws that they ended up living by to atone for their sins.

 

DB

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14 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

That is it. That is the only reason given. God just didn't like them being so successful. 

 

And it could be that the whole story (like many in the Bible) is simply some myth that someone made up.  Why argue about what god's motivation was, if he doesn't exist??  Primitive people had all kinds of crazy ideas about how and why things happened.  Also consider that it is a fact that the whole Bible was written by humans, and then humans declared it to be the word of God, and that humans have a history of deceiving people as a way of gaining control over people.  The basis of every Christian argument is that the Bible is the word of God, but it in fact is the word of human beings.  And that applies to gods of all religions, which are all myths.

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7 hours ago, Weezer said:

The basis of every Christian argument is that the Bible is the word of God, but it in fact is the word of human beings. 

Indeed.  And every time I ask a Christian here - on what grounds do you believe (outside what the bible says) that the bible should be trusted as an authoritative source - I am resoundingly ignored.  No one (well, no Christian) thinks to question the origins of the bible itself, yet everything hinges on the assumption that this literature is nonfiction.  Sometimes I feel like the prerequisite for Christian posts should be to read/watch a secular source on the origins of the Old and New testament.  Such as:

https://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145     and      https://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-152  - or pick from a host of other sources - THEN come back and tell us how they respond to these experts.  Its not like Christians have to ask ex-Christians to read the bible.  We've read their book - and some of us had formal theological education.  So why do they not learn about alternative views?  They are either afraid or dismissive (or both) of learning from secular experts on the bible.  Because in their brainwashing (which is so typical of cults) they've been told that anything or anyone that challenges the "truth" of the bible comes from Satan.  How convenient that "education is of the devil."  Where have we heard that throughout history?  And when you think about it, the god invented in biblical literature was not designed to stand up to common-sense (let alone formal educational) scrutiny.  Deep down a lot of Christians must know and fear this. So once again we circle back to feelings trumping logic and getting in the way of the search for truth.

And once again I have severely digressed.  Sorry for the intrusion! Carry on!

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Weezer said:

And it could be that the whole story (like many in the Bible) is simply some myth that someone made up.  Why argue about what god's motivation was, if he doesn't exist??  Primitive people had all kinds of crazy ideas about how and why things happened.  Also consider that it is a fact that the whole Bible was written by humans, and then humans declared it to be the word of God, and that humans have a history of deceiving people as a way of gaining control over people.  The basis of every Christian argument is that the Bible is the word of God, but it in fact is the word of human beings.  And that applies to gods of all religions, which are all myths.

 

Yep..... thats exactly what I'm doing. I know I'm long winded. But ya gotta read to the end of the post. 🤣🤣 

 

On 11/19/2022 at 9:17 AM, DarkBishop said:

This story does not reflect reality. It was written by people of an ancient culture that were making up stories to explain things they really didn't understand. And that was common. People didn't understand things like volcanoes, famine, plague, or drought. If they didn't understand it. They thought either a God was doing it or that God could help them fix the problem. So they made sacrifices to whatever God they worshipped. Sometimes human sacrifice. And they made up stories about why a spider spins a web. Or why people speak different languages. That is all this is. A myth. 

 

If you're ready to move on we can go to the creation of the earth. Because that is the next most obvious myth on the list. But if you want to keep talking about Babel we can. Its up to you. 

 

22 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Because they were trying to answer questions they didn't know the answer to. Just like in the tower of Babel. This is their myth to explain a few things. A myth doesn't have to be logical and usually can't be logical to us. It is based on primitive intelligence compared to what we have now. 

 

So here are some of the things this myth explains.

 

1. Why snakes don't have legs and crawl on the ground.

 

Genesis 3

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

2. Why women have pain in child birth and why they are to be in subjection to their husband's. 

 

Genesis 3

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

 

3. Why men have to toil the earth for food and why weeds grow up to fight against their efforts. 

 

Genesis 3

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

4. This also explained how they knew right from wrong and set the stage to blame all evil in the bible on the sin of Adam. and of course the devil. That old serpent. 

 

This is the basis for the whole Bible.  Wouldnt you agree? If Adam hadn't sinned in the garden then none of what God had predestined for his son Jesus would have happened. 

 

And for the jews if this hadn't happened there would have been no need for the mosaic laws that they ended up living by to atone for their sins.

 

DB

 

I have a different approach. Christians come in here with the mind set that the Bible is proof. So I argue from the Bible. Even in the bible the tower of Babel myth is filled with biblical fallacies and contradictions. 

 

In this story, preachers and pastors are forced to fill in their own reasons why God did this. I have never heard anyone preach on the tower of babel and not come up with an extra biblical reason why God did it. Because the only reason the bible actually gives isn't good enough. So then they have to speculate that the people must have been sinning in some way while building the tower. However that fails when we find out that the supposed ruler (Nimrod) was a mighty man before the Lord. The Bible only uses that wording when talking about someone who is in God's favor. 

 

And when you realize the true reason God supposedly did it. Then you have to ask yourself, if he went as far as confusing the languages of earth. Why did he let us do all the amazing things we have done. Then it is easier to see that it is a myth. And that the differences in our languages have a perfectly natural explanation.

 

DB

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1 hour ago, freshstart said:

And once again I have severely digressed.  Sorry for the intrusion! Carry on!

 

Nah your good!! This is the lions den not a formal debate. 

 

1 hour ago, freshstart said:

Because in their brainwashing (which is so typical of cults) they've been told that anything or anyone that challenges the "truth" of the bible comes from Satan.  How convenient that "education is of the devil." 

 

AIK has already said as much on the first page. Apparently his church believes that not only are God's words in the bible but Satan's as well. 

 

This is a surprising notion to me because it really calls into question God's power.  I mean really, how powerful of a God are you if you can't even keep your greatest enemy from writing in your instruction book for eternal life? I understand why they want to think that. The bible has so many fallacies and contradictions, but it just seems like believing that comes with all sorts of complications. How could you trust anything the bible said if Satan wrote in it too? Does the pastor get to determine what is Satan's addition and what is gods? Sounds like a good control/brainwashing technique to me.

 

DB

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Hey @aik,

 

Is everything alright? You're not leaving already are you? If you brought this up to a pastor, it wouldn't surprise me if he told you not to be on websites like this, because it could damage your faith. But I hope you hang around. There is a massive amount of evidence against the biblical narrative. I guess it all boils down to whether or not you're happy in your beliefs. And whether or not you really want to know the truth. Even if it leads you down a path you don't necessarily want to go down. 

 

Best Regards,

 

Dark Bishop

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9 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Hey @aik,

 

Is everything alright? You're not leaving already are you? If you brought this up to a pastor, it wouldn't surprise me if he told you not to be on websites like this, because it could damage your faith. But I hope you hang around. There is a massive amount of evidence against the biblical narrative. I guess it all boils down to whether or not you're happy in your beliefs. And whether or not you really want to know the truth. Even if it leads you down a path you don't necessarily want to go down. 

 

Best Regards,

 

Dark Bishop

 Dear Bishop. I am not going to leave the conversation because I am here to serve Jesus. The only reason that I answer you rarely, it is that I have much to do. And I am all the time surrounded by people who are valuable for me. Not only my family. I have many relatives, many friends, also the people who like you, even more than you need to hear the word of God.

 

Look, you don.t have any weight having evidence here. I am just praying that God opens your eyes again... your disease becomes clear I am looking for a medicine, my friend. 

 

Be patient please. I will answer. 

 

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6 minutes ago, aik said:

 Dear Bishop. I am not going to leave the conversation because I am here to serve Jesus. The only reason that I answer you rarely, it is that I have much to do. And I am all the time surrounded by people who are valuable for me. Not only my family. I have many relatives, many friends, also the people who like you, even more than you need to hear the word of God.

 

Look, you don.t have any weight having evidence here. I am just praying that God opens your eyes again... your disease becomes clear I am looking for a medicine, my friend. 

 

Be patient please. I will answer. 

 

Awesome!! 🙂

 

I like discussing all this with you. Have fun with your family. 

 

 

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On 11/20/2022 at 6:59 AM, DarkBishop said:

 

Yep..... thats exactly what I'm doing. I know I'm long winded. But ya gotta read to the end of the post. 🤣🤣 

 

 

Sorry about the intrusion.  The devil made me do it.  🙄

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On 11/20/2022 at 8:06 PM, aik said:

 

your disease becomes clear I am looking for a medicine, my friend. 

 

 

aik, You are confused about who has a disease, and needs "medicine".

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12 minutes ago, Weezer said:

 

Sorry about the intrusion.  The devil made me do it.  🙄

Nah your good, don't worry. You made some really good points to. Its the lions den. And thats what we are supposed to do. I just thought ya didn't see where I was talking about it being a myth. It was at the end of my post. 

 

DB

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On 11/19/2022 at 5:17 PM, DarkBishop said:

 

I feel like I struck a nerve with you. Remember AIK, you came here and opened yourself up to talk to us. Dark Bishop isn't the problem here. The Bible is. I'm not telling you anything that isn't in the bible.

 

Short answers are not usually the best answers when it comes to stuff like this. Do you know what it means to grasp at straws? It is a metaphor common to where I live. Basically if your falling off of a cliff. And try to grasp at straws your holding out hope that you will grasp something that will keep you from falling. But there are only straws of grass and they aren't strong enough to keep you from falling. Your argument is failing and your grasping at whatever you can to support your view but it isn't working.

 

I showed you the scripture already where Nimrod was a mighty hunter before the Lord and one of his kingdoms was Babel. Ill post the scripture again. 

 

 

You said that they had sinned because they weren't scattered as God commanded Japeth. That is where you are grasping at straws. Here Nimrod had 4 kingdoms in the land of shinar. That was just Nimrod. Who was a Grandson of Ham. Not Japeth. 

 

Genesis 10

6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

7 And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabtechah: and the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan.

8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.

10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,

12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city.

 

If you will notice there were 8 cities just in these few scriptures for the decendants of one of Noah's sons. 

 

That looks pretty scattered to me even though they weren't the children of Japeth. Could you show me where God commanded Japeth and his people to be scattered? And not build cities? An assertion like that needs to have scripture attached to it.

 

He commanded the whole human species to subdue the earth. 

 

Genesis 1

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 

Would this city not have been Nimrods people subduing the earth?

 

I'm still having a hard time seeing where there was a valid reason for God to confound the languages. 

 

 

This is kind of offensive AIK. Don't get upset friend. And don't make a reference to me having the intellect of a child. Your better than that. Don't let your frustration override your kindness that you came in here with. Your not going to lead anyone to Jesus by telling me "only a child would think it was only about the languages". 

 

In a way your right, but your not. When a preacher uses this scripture they usually say something like what you have been saying. That they had lifted up their hearts against God and they were trying to be greater than God. Or something to that effect. So when you hear it preached, I agree, they make it sound like there was so much more involved to it than God confusing the languages.

 

But that's just not true. Read the scripture. Everything you have said and preachers have said about the reason God confused the languages is pure speculation. And this is why, if they don't add to this story and explain why God did it. Then it makes God look bad. There was really no reason for God to confuse the languages. A mighty man before the Lord was building the city. He wasn't a sinner. The Bible only says good things about Nimrod. But God looked down. Saw what they were doing. He didn't like that they were able to accomplish so much. And decided to mess it up for them by confusing their languages. 

 

That is it. That is the only reason given. God just didn't like them being so successful. 

 

This story does not reflect reality. It was written by people of an ancient culture that were making up stories to explain things they really didn't understand. And that was common. People didn't understand things like volcanoes, famine, plague, or drought. If they didn't understand it. They thought either a God was doing it or that God could help them fix the problem. So they made sacrifices to whatever God they worshipped. Sometimes human sacrifice. And they made up stories about why a spider spins a web. Or why people speak different languages. That is all this is. A myth. 

 

If you're ready to move on we can go to the creation of the earth. Because that is the next most obvious myth on the list. But if you want to keep talking about Babel we can. Its up to you. 

 

Dark Bishop

Dear Bishop, hello again, my friend.

 

Look what I say to you. I am asking myself, why don't you see the sin of the babel tower constructors, Senaar dwellers? If you were a bishop, you must have been reading the bible many times. So I will speak now without clear references just to save a time, but if you will need some, you tell me, and i will give you them. 

 

Just because we investigate the sin, we anyway need to go back to the Paradise. You said it was boring. I will show you that it is very interesting to be there.

 

What did happen to Eve and Adam after they had tasted the forbidden fruit? The serpent said that their eyes would be opened, and they would not die. But actually he lied. Serpent made them to hesitate in God's love saying that "Did God really say You must not eat from any tree in the garden?" Gen. 3:1. But I am asking you now, did God really said this? Lie no.1. "You will not surely die" Lie no.2 "For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil". Lie no.3. So what was happening there? the serpent throws a particle of hesitation into hearts of men, for a man could hesitate that God loved him. The same what you say to me all the time. Haven't you ate the same fruit at some point of your ministry? So what does it produce now? After they had eaten it, they stopped seeing their sin. Where we can know it from? From the words of Eve and Adam. Adam started being afraid of his nakedness Gen.3:10. He said that the guilty one was the woman who had been given to him by God. Actually the guilty one was God in sight of Adam. Gen.3:12. The same thing I can see in your words blaming God in the story of Babel tower. Adam instead to have opened eyes he got blindness against the sin.

He was not able any more to see that the sin is more sinful than he thought. Romans 7:13, also look at Romans 7:11. 

As well for the case to show how serpent deceived a man, look how he had hidden the fact of existence of the Tree of Life. Whle he speaking with Eve he never mentioned about the tree of life. Why? Because existence of the tree of life shows the love of God. God did not want at that time that Adam and Eve should have knowledge about good and evil, about their nakedness. Yes, just like a newborn kid. A newborn kid has no knowledge, but he has life, he may be happy without having an expensive car, or a smartphone, or glory, magnificance etc. A kid is happy because he lives. So the tree of life should have given eternal life to men, IF the men had used it for having the life. But please answer, how many times Adam or Eve ate from the Tree of life during the time when it was allowed? They ignored the Tree of life. They had no need in it. That was why they were not able to distinguish the lies of the serpent from the truth of God. Because they ignored the life. So today we have Jesus as the life, and faith in Him gives us eternal life, also it opens our spiritual eyes to see the life and the sin. 

 

Now the sin. Look.. what kind of a sin did the king Saul, that God should take off the kingdom from him? Look at the words of Saul: 1 Sam. 15:30 Please honor me now before the elders of my people and before Israel.".. Saul was worried about his honor more than about his  faith. He did not see his sin. The only fact that he had no need in God was the sin itself. Because God is the life. and having no need in life one chooses death. This happened to the first men, the died right after having sinned. 

 

Cain did not see his sin, he was worried only not to be killed. Gen.4:14. This was his only care, but he never asked God why God had not accept his present. 

 

And I can bring many and more examples. Nimrod maybe was a good guy. As for example I have around me very nice people. They don.t kill, they don't steel etc. And they say "what kind of a sin has i done to repent?' It seems true. But look, the fact that he does not see his sin doesn't mean that he is not a sinner. Why, because when it comes, he shows what kind of evil he has in his heart, and he says that "it is righteous what I do. Because the guilty he not me." But look at Jesus now, He was more right than anyone in this world, he had no sin. So what made Him to take the cross? The only fact that a man has no need in God, it makes his eyes blind against his own sin. And than he starts seeing the world in a new form let say. The man who covers up his sin, even a little one, he starts covering up the same sin in others also. Otherwise he should repent the first. This is spiritual field of laws, but they are laws. 

 

So people in Senaar say "let us make a name for us". I am asking, What kind of a spirit led them to say so? You maybe say there is no spirit because science does not see it. Loooool. Ok you have a right to say so. 

 

God from the very beginning gave His commandments not for taking something good from a man, but to save them from death and to lead to the Life. The Life has come to the world as a man. Now you are free of the burden of a sin. Live your life freely, just like an infant, yet having knowledge, but the knowledge of the Life. Jesus is like a Tree of Life in the Garden. Whoever eats from His fruits he has no need in sin.

 

That is why those guys from Senaar did not see their state. And in their eyes God has become an evil doer. Please answer, what do you think the people if Philistea thought about the God of Samsun, when the cought him? They maybe thought that the God was fake but their gods were powerful. Do you agree with me? Judges 16:23. Now the lords of Plhilistines gathered together to offer a great sacrifice to their god Dagon. They rejoiced and said, Our god has delivered Samson our enemy into our hands". 

 

There is not a single man who was perished unlawfully, having no sin. The one which perishes a man is his sin. The Gods law is pure. So whoever is pure he loves Gods law. The taste of pure water differs from the taste of impure water. But there is a man who drinks impure water all his life and calls it pure. 

 

I gave this kind of answer because we actually can bring counter arguments to each other and gain nothing. But I am here to serve Jesus and to show you that your foundation now is crushed and knowledge is limited. 

 

Only a stupid man can say "I believe in what I can see". Such man does not really know that he sees only which is in his premises till the wall, but he does not see what is beyond the wall, it does not mean that there is nothing there. Do you agree with it?

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5 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Nah your good, don't worry. You made some really good points to. Its the lions den. And thats what we are supposed to do. I just thought ya didn't see where I was talking about it being a myth. It was at the end of my post. 

 

DB

How do you think, was it like a myth for a blindborn man when he might be told about beauty of colours, nature, people shapes etc? Could he really imagine what the green was and what the yellow was? What was sunrise and what was a river like? I mean by view. Did he really think that he needed to have opened eyes? Maybe he did not believe in vision at all. And he could think that all people lie to him, or they gone crazy somehow. Only if he humbles himself to accept what was said to him by faith will make his eyes open and he will have vision. Right?

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On 11/16/2022 at 11:59 PM, walterpthefirst said:

 

aik,

 

Referring to you the sentence I've highlighted, was Esau given an option to choose god?

 

Romans 9 : 10 - 18.

 

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 

12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 

15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 

God hated Esau before he was born.   God never changes his mind.

 

Numbers 23 : 19

 

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind.

 

So, god has always hated Esau and will always hate him.  Therefore, Esau never had the option to choose god.

God had made his mind up to hate him and there was nothing that Esau could do to make god to change his mind.

Which means that you are wrong, aik.

Not everybody gets the option to choose god.

 

 

This is a gentle reminder to aik that he said he would reply to this.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

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7 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

This is a gentle reminder to aik that he said he would reply to this.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

Dear Walter, I am so sorry. I really forgot. I will give you answer sure.

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