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The tower of Babel


DarkBishop
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9 hours ago, aik said:
On 11/19/2022 at 9:17 AM, DarkBishop said:

 

I feel like I struck a nerve with you. Remember AIK, you came here and opened yourself up to talk to us. Dark Bishop isn't the problem here. The Bible is. I'm not telling you anything that isn't in the bible.

 

Short answers are not usually the best answers when it comes to stuff like this. Do you know what it means to grasp at straws? It is a metaphor common to where I live. Basically if your falling off of a cliff. And try to grasp at straws your holding out hope that you will grasp something that will keep you from falling. But there are only straws of grass and they aren't strong enough to keep you from falling. Your argument is failing and your grasping at whatever you can to support your view but it isn't working.

 

I showed you the scripture already where Nimrod was a mighty hunter before the Lord and one of his kingdoms was Babel. Ill post the scripture again. 

 

 

You said that they had sinned because they weren't scattered as God commanded Japeth. That is where you are grasping at straws. Here Nimrod had 4 kingdoms in the land of shinar. That was just Nimrod. Who was a Grandson of Ham. Not Japeth. 

 

Genesis 10

6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

7 And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabtechah: and the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan.

8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.

10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,

12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city.

 

If you will notice there were 8 cities just in these few scriptures for the decendants of one of Noah's sons. 

 

That looks pretty scattered to me even though they weren't the children of Japeth. Could you show me where God commanded Japeth and his people to be scattered? And not build cities? An assertion like that needs to have scripture attached to it.

 

He commanded the whole human species to subdue the earth. 

 

Genesis 1

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 

Would this city not have been Nimrods people subduing the earth?

 

I'm still having a hard time seeing where there was a valid reason for God to confound the languages. 

 

 

This is kind of offensive AIK. Don't get upset friend. And don't make a reference to me having the intellect of a child. Your better than that. Don't let your frustration override your kindness that you came in here with. Your not going to lead anyone to Jesus by telling me "only a child would think it was only about the languages". 

 

In a way your right, but your not. When a preacher uses this scripture they usually say something like what you have been saying. That they had lifted up their hearts against God and they were trying to be greater than God. Or something to that effect. So when you hear it preached, I agree, they make it sound like there was so much more involved to it than God confusing the languages.

 

But that's just not true. Read the scripture. Everything you have said and preachers have said about the reason God confused the languages is pure speculation. And this is why, if they don't add to this story and explain why God did it. Then it makes God look bad. There was really no reason for God to confuse the languages. A mighty man before the Lord was building the city. He wasn't a sinner. The Bible only says good things about Nimrod. But God looked down. Saw what they were doing. He didn't like that they were able to accomplish so much. And decided to mess it up for them by confusing their languages. 

 

That is it. That is the only reason given. God just didn't like them being so successful. 

 

This story does not reflect reality. It was written by people of an ancient culture that were making up stories to explain things they really didn't understand. And that was common. People didn't understand things like volcanoes, famine, plague, or drought. If they didn't understand it. They thought either a God was doing it or that God could help them fix the problem. So they made sacrifices to whatever God they worshipped. Sometimes human sacrifice. And they made up stories about why a spider spins a web. Or why people speak different languages. That is all this is. A myth. 

 

If you're ready to move on we can go to the creation of the earth. Because that is the next most obvious myth on the list. But if you want to keep talking about Babel we can. Its up to you. 

 

Dark Bishop

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Dear Bishop, hello again, my friend.

 

Look what I say to you. I am asking myself, why don't you see the sin of the babel tower constructors, Senaar dwellers? If you were a bishop, you must have been reading the bible many times. So I will speak now without clear references just to save a time, but if you will need some, you tell me, and i will give you them. 

 

Just because we investigate the sin, we anyway need to go back to the Paradise. You said it was boring. I will show you that it is very interesting to be there.

 

What did happen to Eve and Adam after they had tasted the forbidden fruit? The serpent said that their eyes would be opened, and they would not die. But actually he lied. Serpent made them to hesitate in God's love saying that "Did God really say You must not eat from any tree in the garden?" Gen. 3:1. But I am asking you now, did God really said this? Lie no.1. "You will not surely die" Lie no.2 "For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil". Lie no.3. So what was happening there? the serpent throws a particle of hesitation into hearts of men, for a man could hesitate that God loved him. The same what you say to me all the time. Haven't you ate the same fruit at some point of your ministry? So what does it produce now? After they had eaten it, they stopped seeing their sin. Where we can know it from? From the words of Eve and Adam. Adam started being afraid of his nakedness Gen.3:10. He said that the guilty one was the woman who had been given to him by God. Actually the guilty one was God in sight of Adam. Gen.3:12. The same thing I can see in your words blaming God in the story of Babel tower. Adam instead to have opened eyes he got blindness against the sin.

He was not able any more to see that the sin is more sinful than he thought. Romans 7:13, also look at Romans 7:11. 

As well for the case to show how serpent deceived a man, look how he had hidden the fact of existence of the Tree of Life. Whle he speaking with Eve he never mentioned about the tree of life. Why? Because existence of the tree of life shows the love of God. God did not want at that time that Adam and Eve should have knowledge about good and evil, about their nakedness. Yes, just like a newborn kid. A newborn kid has no knowledge, but he has life, he may be happy without having an expensive car, or a smartphone, or glory, magnificance etc. A kid is happy because he lives. So the tree of life should have given eternal life to men, IF the men had used it for having the life. But please answer, how many times Adam or Eve ate from the Tree of life during the time when it was allowed? They ignored the Tree of life. They had no need in it. That was why they were not able to distinguish the lies of the serpent from the truth of God. Because they ignored the life. So today we have Jesus as the life, and faith in Him gives us eternal life, also it opens our spiritual eyes to see the life and the sin. 

 

Ok AIK, thank you for your reply. I need to ask you to clarify one point in your argument before I can start on my response. I think I understand your response except for this part.

 

Just looking at this quoted section are you saying that Adam was not able to see the seriousness of his sin after he ate the fruit? Or that he saw his sin after he ate the fruit?

 

Your English was a little broken in that section and it sounds confusing. 

 

Thanks,

 

DB

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25 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Ok AIK, thank you for your reply. I need to ask you to clarify one point in your argument before I can start on my response. I think I understand your response except for this part.

 

Just looking at this quoted section are you saying that Adam was not able to see the seriousness of his sin after he ate the fruit? Or that he saw his sin after he ate the fruit?

 

Your English was a little broken in that section and it sounds confusing. 

 

Thanks,

 

DB

I mean that Adam could not see the seriousness of his sin. 

 

My English is so so. But I feel we can generally understand each other and have such a nice discussion.

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50 minutes ago, aik said:

I mean that Adam could not see the seriousness of his sin. 

 

My English is so so. But I feel we can generally understand each other and have such a nice discussion.

Yes but are you saying he couldn't see the seriousness of his sin after he ate the fruit. Or before?

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1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

Yes but are you saying he couldn't see the seriousness of his sin after he ate the fruit. Or before?

Of course after. Before sinning, he didn.t know what the sin was. After his action he realized what he had done though he was not able to put it on right scales to weigh. The right scales come into a life of a man after his repentence. Generally saying. 

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8 minutes ago, aik said:

Of course after. Before sinning, he didn.t know what the sin was. After his action he realized what he had done though he was not able to put it on right scales to weigh. The right scales come into a life of a man after his repentence. Generally saying. 

Ok thank you. I just wanted to make sure I knew what you were saying. I don't want to go in one direction thinking you meant something else. 

 

DB

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On 11/17/2022 at 2:59 AM, walterpthefirst said:

God had made his mind up to hate him and there was nothing that Esau could do to make god to change his mind.

 

On 11/17/2022 at 2:59 AM, walterpthefirst said:

 

aik,

 

Referring to you the sentence I've highlighted, was Esau given an option to choose god?

 

 

Romans 9 : 10 - 18.

 

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 

12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 

15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 

God hated Esau before he was born.   God never changes his mind.

 

 

Numbers 23 : 19

 

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind.

 

 

So, god has always hated Esau and will always hate him.  Therefore, Esau never had the option to choose god.

 

God had made his mind up to hate him and there was nothing that Esau could do to make god to change his mind.

 

Which means that you are wrong, aik.

 

Not everybody gets the option to choose god.

 

 

 

 

 

Hello Walter,

 

God has always hated Esau not because Esau could not (had no chance) to choose God, but because he never wanted to do so. 

 

You say there was nothing to change God't mind. But actually the Bible shows us that God many time gave life after repentance even when He previously had said judgment. The Story of Ninveh (Jonah), the story of Ezekia the king of Judah etc.

 

Look, when at first you start with God, you may see to one point and make such conclusions like God is so and so. But when you get into the knowledge of God by studying Him and His scripture the character of God becomes clear. 

 

Yes, upon the scripture there are and will be the people who will never be saved, but this will be only because of their unbelief not because God wants to be so. Read Revelation chapter 16 please. You will see their several times repeating the same phrase "they repented not from their sins".

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On 11/19/2022 at 6:32 AM, aik said:

Walter you say here "whatever they choose". Show me please, what did they choose in fact? Go ahead.. And i will show you that you a new thing for you.

Walter could you answer this?

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Hey AIK,

 

Just letting you know, it may take me some time to reply to your most recent responses to me. It is Thanksgiving week in America and I have a family event today and tomorrow. I will try to reply to one of them today if possible. 

 

DB

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Thanksgiving to whom? 😉

 

Dear Bishop, it must be a great time to spend it with family. As you said, family is the first. Have i nice time, friend.

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  On 11/19/2022 at 3:32 AM, aik said:

Walter you say here "whatever they choose". Show me please, what did they choose in fact? Go ahead.. And i will show you that you a new thing for you.

 

----------------------------------------------

 

Hello aik.

 

My argument is based upon the following passages from scripture.  

 

GOD CHOOSES WHO HE WILL CALL ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE, NOT ACCORDING TO ANYONE'S CHOICE

 

Romans 8 : 28 - 30.

 

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 

30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 

This passage cannot be interpreted to say that god predestines according to his foreknowledge of who will choose him and who will not.  If that were so then he would predestine people according to their purpose (choice) and not his.

 

Ephesians 1 : 3 & 4.

 

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

4 In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

 

This passage cannot be interpreted to say that we chose him after the foundation of the world.  It clearly says that HE chose us before we existed.  So, even if he foresaw who would choose him that does not change who's purpose (choice) is sovereign.  The created (us) cannot change the eternal purpose of the creator.

 

 

Exodus 33 :  18 - 20.

 

18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 

20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

 

This passage cannot be interpreted to say that god will have compassion and mercy on whoever chooses him.  It clearly says that HE will have mercy and compassion on those he chooses.

 

 

Romans 9 : 16 - 19

 

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 

20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 

23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 

24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

 

 

This passage cannot be interpreted to say that salvation depends on human effort of desire (choice).  It says the opposite.  Salvation depends on god choosing who will be the objects of his mercy and who will be the objects of destruction.  In both case, he has prepared them for these different fates in advance.  Not because he foresaw their choices but because his will, his purpose and his choice is sovereign.  That is why the pot bound for destruction has no right to talk back to god, it's creator.  God's choice cannot be questioned.

 

 

 

John 15 : 16

 

“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”

 

This passage cannot be interpreted to say that people do the choosing.  God choses. Jesus said so.

 

 

GOD CANNOT CHANGE HIS MIND AND HIS MIND CANNOT BE CHANGED BY WHAT WE CHOOSE.

 

Malachi 3 : 6

 

“I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

 

Numbers 23 : 19

 

God is not human, that he should lie,
    not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
    Does he promise and not fulfil?

 

James 1 : 17

 

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 

 

 

 

Now lets put all of this together aik.

Scripture plainly says that we cannot choose god because he has already chosen whom he will have mercy on and who he will destroy.  It also says that god cannot and does not change his mind.  Therefore, nobody chooses god.  He has already done the choosing for us, before he created the world.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

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12 hours ago, aik said:

 

Hello Walter,

 

God has always hated Esau not because Esau could not (had no chance) to choose God, but because he never wanted to do so. 

 

That's not what scripture says.  God did not hate Esau on the basis of what he foresaw Esau choosing.  If that were so then god's hatred of Esau would depend on Esau's purpose (choice) and not god's. But Romans 8 : 28 says that people are called, not according to their choices, but according to god's purpose.  God's purpose, not Esau's.

 

Romans 9 : 16 tells us that salvation does not depend on human desire (choice) but on god's mercy.  God's mercy, not Esau's choice.  God withheld his mercy from Esau according to his purpose, not according to Esau's choices.

 

Which does scripture say is the greater?  God's choice or human choice?  God's purpose or human purpose?

 

12 hours ago, aik said:

 

You say there was nothing to change God't mind. But actually the Bible shows us that God many time gave life after repentance even when He previously had said judgment. The Story of Ninveh (Jonah), the story of Ezekia the king of Judah etc.

 

Then the bible contradicts itself and we shouldn't trust it.

 

12 hours ago, aik said:

Look, when at first you start with God, you may see to one point and make such conclusions like God is so and so. But when you get into the knowledge of God by studying Him and His scripture the character of God becomes clear. 

 

This is a statement of faith.  But I have no faith with which to believe it.

 

12 hours ago, aik said:

Yes, upon the scripture there are and will be the people who will never be saved, but this will be only because of their unbelief not because God wants to be so. Read Revelation chapter 16 please. You will see their several times repeating the same phrase "they repented not from their sins".

 

As I said, if the bible says contradictory things, then it shouldn't be trusted.

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21 minutes ago, aik said:

Thanksgiving to whom? 😉

 

Well most of my family are still Christian so to them it is Thanksgiving to God. But for Me and most of my immediate family (sons and daughter) it is just a day to be thankful in general for what we have in our lives and in America. The greatest country on earth IMHO. But that is the way each of us should feel about our own country. 

 

DB

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6 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Well most of my family are still Christian so to them it is Thanksgiving to God. But for Me and most of my immediate family (sons and daughter) it is just a day to be thankful in general for what we have in our lives and in America. The greatest country on earth IMHO. But that is the way each of us should feel about our own country. 

 

DB

Dear Bishop, when you come back tell me please, you are thankful to whom, and from which source do you have which you are thankful for? If there is no God then why you should be thankful anyway? It is very interesting to me. 

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29 minutes ago, aik said:

Thanksgiving to whom? 😉


I’m thankful to a lot of people for all kinds of things.  People near and far, people living and people long dead.  And indeed there are many things, like the beauty of the night sky, that I am “thankful” for without believing there is any deity responsible.  Just as, conversely, there is no being to blame for the existence of pain.  
 

I do think it is an important life skill to cultivate an attitude of thankfulness for any number of things. My list is very long.  I think this is something believers and atheists alike could agree on.

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1 minute ago, TABA said:


I’m thankful to a lot of people for all kinds of things.  People near and far, people living and people long dead.  And indeed there are many things, like the beauty of the night sky, that I am “thankful” for without believing there is any deity responsible.  Just as, conversely, there is no being to blame for the existence of pain.  
 

I do think it is an important life skill to cultivate an attitude of thankfulness for any number of things. My list is very long.  I think this is something believers and atheists alike could agree on.

O. TABA. Let's talk a little. Thankfullness is great. I agree. You are thankful to people, well its great also. You are thankful to people for what? If somebody gives me something. But can you be thankful to any man for having everyday food on your table for example? For any deliverance from danger or whatever? There are many cases where certain people do not participate in it. But we anyway are thankful. So the question. To whom? Or why? Who put it in you to be thankful? What is the reason and the purpose to be thankful if there is no source? Reason and purpose?

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On 11/22/2022 at 2:22 AM, aik said:

Dear Bishop, hello again, my friend.

 

Look what I say to you. I am asking myself, why don't you see the sin of the babel tower constructors, Senaar dwellers? If you were a bishop, you must have been reading the bible many times. So I will speak now without clear references just to save a time, but if you will need some, you tell me, and i will give you them. 

 

No I don't need any other references than what you gave on this one. Thank you. 

 

On 11/22/2022 at 2:22 AM, aik said:

Just because we investigate the sin, we anyway need to go back to the Paradise. You said it was boring. I will show you that it is very interesting to be there.

The reason I said it was getting boring is because for the past month or so we have been arguing with another Christian about the fall of man in the Garden of Eden and I feel that argument has been thoroughly explored. But maybe you can add some new content to the argument. 

 

On 11/22/2022 at 2:22 AM, aik said:

Lie no.1. "You will not surely die"

 

But they didn't actually die. God did not tell them that they would die a spiritual death. He just told them they would die. If it were so important that they not eat from the tree why didn't he give them more detail? So did the serpent really lie? No, he told them they wouldn't die a physical death and in that respect he did not lie. 

 

Maybe they would have made a different decision if God had told them what type of death they would die and the resulting consequences for sin and not obeying him. 

 

On 11/22/2022 at 2:22 AM, aik said:

Lie no.2 "For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil".

 

Was this a lie? They were like God knowing good and evil after they ate the fruit. 

 

God even said so himself:

Genesis 3

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 

I personally believe now, after learning a bit more about ancient canaanite beliefs, that this is a fragment of a story lost to time unfortunately. Notice how God refers to himself in plural form. He is talking to atleast one other being in this scripture. 

 

Ancient canaanite beliefs dating back to before the formation of Isreal reflect a pantheon of Gods headed by the God EL. This is the God that Jesus cries out to on the cross asking, "My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me." 

 

Mathew 27

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

When I was a Christian I assumed he was talking to Jesus. Which I'm sure you believe he is talking to Jesus as well. But there are other scriptures that add to the evidence that this type of wording is left over from the more ancient polytheistic beliefs of Canaan. Like in Genesis chapter 6 where is says the "sons" of God took for themselves wives of the daughters of men. 

 

Here is a reference to read about the ancient polytheistic beliefs of the canaanites. Who the isrealites most likely separated from. 

 

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Canaanite_Religion

 

The God El had sons and daughters at one time in earlier beliefs. So when the bible says that the sons of God took for themselves wives. When we look at what archeologist have found and scholars have studied we can see that this is probably a remnant of earlier polytheistic beliefs.

 

If you will notice it is believed that Canaanite beliefs were heavily influence by the Egyptians among others. And it was during this time period of Egyptian influence that Akenhaten became Pharoah who promoted Monotheistic religion in Egypt. It was about a century later that the Isrealites began to conquer the land of Canaan. I believe that it was this Pharaoh's influence on Canaanite beliefs eventually lead to a monotheistic Isreal. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

 

On 11/22/2022 at 2:22 AM, aik said:

Because existence of the tree of life shows the love of God. God did not want at that time that Adam and Eve should have knowledge about good and evil, about their nakedness.

 

Have you ever asked the question, "why didn't God just go ahead and tell them to eat specifically from the tree of life to begin with?" Before they sinned and ate of the tree of knowledge? 

 

 But you haven't addressed how they could have made the "right" decision if they were unable to see "good" from "evil". They wouldn't have even been able to know the serpent was Evil. We may have to agree to disagree. But when we take apart the scripture here if they didn't know good from evil or right from wrong. How could they be expected to make the right decision? God left them alone in the presence of Satan himself knowing nothing. I will pose a question to you that @walterpthefirst asked Edgarcito in another thread. 

 

If you are a father you will understand where I'm coming from. Would you let your child wander around in a garden knowing there was a deadly viper in it somewhere?

 

This is an easy question for me to answer. The answer is no. I would have one of my sons stay with my daughter to make sure the viper didn't get to her and I would kill the snake before I let my children in the garden. 

 

God at any point in time could have put Satan in chains and sent him to the lake of fire. Saving billions of souls from sin and death.

 

So who made the bad decision here AIK? Two humans who couldn't decern between right and wrong? Or an all knowing, all powerful, all loving, and ever present God that knew an Evil being was about to cause his most precious creation to fall from his good graces?

 

Just try to step outside of the bible for just a second and think about it logically. 

 

On 11/22/2022 at 2:22 AM, aik said:

But please answer, how many times Adam or Eve ate from the Tree of life during the time when it was allowed? They ignored the Tree of life. They had no need in it. That was why they were not able to distinguish the lies of the serpent from the truth of God. Because they ignored the life. So today we have Jesus as the life, and faith in Him gives us eternal life, also it opens our spiritual eyes to see the life and the sin. 

 

This is all just pure speculation. There is non scripture to indicate that they ignored the tree of life. Or that the tree of life would have given them the ability to decern what the right course of action would be. We could also speculate that the trees were side by side and the serpent lead them to the tree of knowledge first. 

 

On 11/22/2022 at 2:22 AM, aik said:

Now the sin. Look.. what kind of a sin did the king Saul, that God should take off the kingdom from him? Look at the words of Saul: 1 Sam. 15:30 Please honor me now before the elders of my people and before Israel.".. Saul was worried about his honor more than about his  faith. He did not see his sin

 

I think you need to go back and read the whole chapter. He didn't lose his kingdom because he was more worried his honor. He lost his kingdom because he didn't completely follow what God had told him to do to the amekelites. 

 

Samuel 15

Samuel also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.

2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.

5 And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.

6 And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.

7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.

8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.

9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.

10 Then came the word of the Lord unto Samuel, saying,

11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night.

 

So let look at this again. Your God. The God of Jesus and Abraham commanded Saul to kill, not only every man, but every man, woman, and INFANT. Your God commanded the slaughter of INFANTS AIK. Which Saul apparently did happily. But he took the king prisoner and took some of the livestock. This was his sin. God wanted everything destroyed. So God was watching Saul slew the men first, then eagerly watched as the women were slayed, and was giddy with excitement as Saul sank his blade in defenseless infants. But because he didn't kill the king and the livestock he lost his kingdom. 

 

I'm sorry AIK. Now a days when people kill infants it is considered EVIL. Maybe you need to examine your God a little more before you start using the fall of Saul as an example. 

 

On 11/22/2022 at 2:22 AM, aik said:

Nimrod maybe was a good guy. As for example I have around me very nice people. They don.t kill, they don't steel etc. And they say "what kind of a sin has i done to repent?' It seems true. But look, the fact that he does not see his sin doesn't mean that he is not a sinner. Why, because when it comes, he shows what kind of evil he has in his heart, and he says that "it is righteous what I do. Because the guilty he not me

 

On 11/22/2022 at 2:22 AM, aik said:

So people in Senaar say "let us make a name for us". I am asking, What kind of a spirit led them to say so?

 

On 11/22/2022 at 2:22 AM, aik said:

That is why those guys from Senaar did not see their state. And in their eyes God has become an evil doer. Please answer, what do you think the people if Philistea thought about the God of Samsun, when the cought him? They maybe thought that the God was fake but their gods were powerful. Do you agree with me? Judges 16:23. Now the lords of Plhilistines gathered together to offer a great sacrifice to their god Dagon. They rejoiced and said, Our god has delivered Samson our enemy into our hands". 

Do you realize just how far your having to stretch to find a way to make the people of Babel guilty here? You have had to go to adam and eve, king Saul, now you having to bring Samson in. Why AIK? I will answer because I don't think you realize the reason. You have to do this because the scripture about the tower of Babel doesn't give a valid reason. This is called a biblical fallacy and your Christian mind is trying to work its way around the problem. So it goes to great lengths to justify the actions of God. Tell me. How is God justified in ordering Saul to kill innocent babies? If the Christian God orders the death of undesirable babies then Christians really shouldn't have any problem with aborting and unwanted baby.

 

You are speculating that Nimrod sinned when the bible says he was a mighty man before the Lord. A Great hunter before the Lord. The bible says this was his city. And the only reason the bible says God confused the languages was because they were accomplishing to much being together.

 

On 11/22/2022 at 2:22 AM, aik said:

I gave this kind of answer because we actually can bring counter arguments to each other and gain nothing. But I am here to serve Jesus and to show you that your foundation now is crushed and knowledge is limited. 

 

I accept that you will argue for Jesus. It is what I expect out of a Christian. You wouldn't be a very good one if you didn't. But understand this. I am an ExChristian and will counter your arguments in the hopes that you or someone watching will see sense in my words and leave the faith behind. 

 

But just because we are on different sides, does not mean we can't be hospitable to one another. We can always agree to disagree at some point and remain friends. Like I said before. I enjoy discussing the bible with you and it is my hope you will stay. You are welcome to keep trying to fight for Jesus as long as you want. We haven't had a good champion for Jesus in the lions den for a long time. Usually they get frustrated, start shouting curses at us, and leave 🙂 Maybe you can consider yourself that good Shepard that left the 99 sheep to find the one lost sheep.

 

On 11/22/2022 at 2:22 AM, aik said:

Only a stupid man can say "I believe in what I can see". Such man does not really know that he sees only which is in his premises till the wall, but he does not see what is beyond the wall, it does not mean that there is nothing there. Do you agree with it?

 

The same can be said about someone who is a believer. You only believe what you see in the bible, what is taught at church, or what you feel the spirit has lead you to believe. 

 

Can you see on the other side of the wall? We have been on your side as believers then we looked over the wall and saw information that lead us not to believe anymore. 

 

Best Regards,

 

Dark Bishop. 

 

PS. I will try to reply to your response to me in the DNA thread tomorrow or friday. I don't have time today. 

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3 hours ago, aik said:

Dear Bishop, when you come back tell me please, you are thankful to whom, and from which source do you have which you are thankful for? If there is no God then why you should be thankful anyway? It is very interesting to me. 

 

I do not have to be thankful to anyone to be thankful. But to be honest I believe that any success or failure in my life hinges on my own actions and possibly that of those closest to me in my life. This may be a foreign concept to you. Here let me list some things I'm thankful for.

 

I am thankful to myself and this community for my deconversion from Christianity. If it weren't for the kind people in these forums, giving me a sense of community during that most depressing and hard time in my life, I probably would have gone crazy. When I first deconverted I felt very alone at times. And this community helped me through it. I am very thankful for www.ex-christian.net

 

I am thankful that my children are all alive and well. We all survived the pandemic so far. And both my sons are starting on their own paths in life. Without God. 

 

I am thankful for my Job. I owe that to myself. It is entirely up to me to do a good enough job for my employers that they don't try to fire me. I'm one of the highest payed maintenance members in our department. And that is a refection of my success. Not Gods. 

 

I am thankful for my parents. Yes they are believers. But thats ok. This past year I came clean with them and told them I no longer had faith. They still love me even tho I no longer believe. I couldn't ask for better parents. They raised me to be good man and regardless of my faith I am still a good man. 

 

I am thankful that you decided to join ExC AIK. You seem to be a good person as well. Your presence in the Lion's den has brought back many members that I haven't talked to in awhile. Thank you AIK. 

 

I am thankful for many things! But I don't thank God for any of it. I may actually bow my head when thanks is given this year. I usually don't. But I won't bow my head in prayer. I will bow it in solemn reflection of my life and the good in it. 

 

Does that make sense AIK?

 

DB

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9 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I do not have to be thankful to anyone to be thankful. But to be honest I believe that any success or failure in my life hinges on my own actions and possibly that of those closest to me in my life. This may be a foreign concept to you. Here let me list some things I'm thankful for.

 

I am thankful to myself and this community for my deconversion from Christianity. If it weren't for the kind people in these forums, giving me a sense of community during that most depressing and hard time in my life, I probably would have gone crazy. When I first deconverted I felt very alone at times. And this community helped me through it. I am very thankful for www.ex-christian.net

 

I am thankful that my children are all alive and well. We all survived the pandemic so far. And both my sons are starting on their own paths in life. Without God. 

 

I am thankful for my Job. I owe that to myself. It is entirely up to me to do a good enough job for my employers that they don't try to fire me. I'm one of the highest payed maintenance members in our department. And that is a refection of my success. Not Gods. 

 

I am thankful for my parents. Yes they are believers. But thats ok. This past year I came clean with them and told them I no longer had faith. They still love me even tho I no longer believe. I couldn't ask for better parents. They raised me to be good man and regardless of my faith I am still a good man. 

 

I am thankful that you decided to join ExC AIK. You seem to be a good person as well. Your presence in the Lion's den has brought back many members that I haven't talked to in awhile. Thank you AIK. 

 

I am thankful for many things! But I don't thank God for any of it. I may actually bow my head when thanks is given this year. I usually don't. But I won't bow my head in prayer. I will bow it in solemn reflection of my life and the good in it. 

 

Does that make sense AIK?

 

DB

Sure it does

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15 minutes ago, aik said:

Sure it does

No it doesn't. Maybe to you. But not to me. I have no need to thank a being that doesn't exist. 

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1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

No it doesn't. Maybe to you. But not to me. I have no need to thank a being that doesn't exist. 

Maybe I understood wrong your question. I am saying that it makes sense to be thankful for all the things you listed. 

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20 hours ago, aik said:

O. TABA. Let's talk a little. Thankfullness is great. I agree. You are thankful to people, well its great also. You are thankful to people for what? If somebody gives me something. But can you be thankful to any man for having everyday food on your table for example? For any deliverance from danger or whatever? There are many cases where certain people do not participate in it. But we anyway are thankful. So the question. To whom? Or why? Who put it in you to be thankful? What is the reason and the purpose to be thankful if there is no source? Reason and purpose?


 

Hi aik, time for me to respond.  Sorry for the delay.  I’m in the US too and was busy yesterday, both preparing for today’s Thanksgiving holiday and spending the evening with extended family.  
 

I feel lucky that I have always been thankful for many things in my life.  And of course in many cases, there are people to thank.  

 

One of the great joys in my life is being outdoors in the natural world.  I spend several hours most weeks hiking, usually in one or more of the wildlife reserves in this area.  I am thankful for the people who made it possible: the families who donated the land to the community and the workers who built and maintain the hiking trails.

 

But the most joy comes from things that are not made by humans: the trees, the birds, the sunshine, the very feeling of air in my lungs.  It would be easy to believe that all of this is the work of a creator, a deity.  And it is possible.  But the truth that cannot be escaped is that the natural world is also filled with suffering and cruelty.  People have come up with all kinds of reasons why both great beauty and terrible suffering exist.  In different parts of the world, people have come up with wildly different answers.  
 

Without going into detail here, I think there is very likely nothing resembling a god behind all of this.  Certainly not an all-powerful, loving deity like the christian god.  So it’s true: I have nobody to thank for much of life, for many of the things that bring me joy.  I also have nobody to blame for much of the suffering that so many creatures experience. 
 

Rather than saying I am thankful for the beauty of the forest, maybe I should say I am happy and appreciative.  I try to never take such things for granted and try to never lose sight of what a wonderful thing it is to just exist, just to be able to see and hear and touch, to spend a few decades of existence on a planet like this.  
 

I don’t care if atheists like me say they are thankful for the beauty of the sunset, even while having nobody to thank.  In the English language, words sometimes have various meanings, and “thankful” is one of them.  Likewise, I sometimes say that some experience is good for my “soul”, even though I don’t use that word as you might, as a christian.  I don’t believe I have an immortal component that leaves my body at death and continues to exist.  Likewise, I may refer to something as being a “spiritual” experience, without believing in spirits, Holy or otherwise.  It just refers to my deepest, innermost feelings.  People understand what I mean even if they’re not religious.  


I hope this makes sense, aik, even if you have different beliefs.  Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain.  

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31 minutes ago, TABA said:


 

Hi aik, time for me to respond.  Sorry for the delay.  I’m in the US too and was busy yesterday, both preparing for today’s Thanksgiving holiday and spending the evening with extended family.  
 

I feel lucky that I have always been thankful for many things in my life.  And of course in many cases, there are people to thank.  

 

One of the great joys in my life is being outdoors in the natural world.  I spend several hours most weeks hiking, usually in one or more of the wildlife reserves in this area.  I am thankful for the people who made it possible: the families who donated the land to the community and the workers who built and maintain the hiking trails.

 

But the most joy comes from things that are not made by humans: the trees, the birds, the sunshine, the very feeling of air in my lungs.  It would be easy to believe that all of this is the work of a creator, a deity.  And it is possible.  But the truth that cannot be escaped is that the natural world is also filled with suffering and cruelty.  People have come up with all kinds of reasons why both great beauty and terrible suffering exist.  In different parts of the world, people have come up with wildly different answers.  
 

Without going into detail here, I think there is very likely nothing resembling a god behind all of this.  Certainly not an all-powerful, loving deity like the christian god.  So it’s true: I have nobody to thank for much of life, for many of the things that bring me joy.  I also have nobody to blame for much of the suffering that so many creatures experience. 
 

Rather than saying I am thankful for the beauty of the forest, maybe I should say I am happy and appreciative.  I try to never take such things for granted and try to never lose sight of what a wonderful thing it is to just exist, just to be able to see and hear and touch, to spend a few decades of existence on a planet like this.  
 

I don’t care if atheists like me say they are thankful for the beauty of the sunset, even while having nobody to thank.  In the English language, words sometimes have various meanings, and “thankful” is one of them.  Likewise, I sometimes say that some experience is good for my “soul”, even though I don’t use that word as you might, as a christian.  I don’t believe I have an immortal component that leaves my body at death and continues to exist.  Likewise, I may refer to something as being a “spiritual” experience, without believing in spirits, Holy or otherwise.  It just refers to my deepest, innermost feelings.  People understand what I mean even if they’re not religious.  


I hope this makes sense, aik, even if you have different beliefs.  Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain.  

Thank you for an explanation taba. 

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7 hours ago, aik said:

Maybe I understood wrong your question. I am saying that it makes sense to be thankful for all the things you listed. 

Oh ok, I apologize. I miss understood your meaning. I had said I don't have to be thankful to God to be thankful. And I thought you were saying "sure it does". As in, I do have to be thankful to God to be thankful. My apologies friend. 

 

DB

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16 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Oh ok, I apologize. I miss understood your meaning. I had said I don't have to be thankful to God to be thankful. And I thought you were saying "sure it does". As in, I do have to be thankful to God to be thankful. My apologies friend. 

 

DB

Dear Bishop, could you tell me please a little bit about the Thanksgiving celebration you had. What do you generally do, what do you say to each other, what do you eat etc.

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13 hours ago, aik said:

Dear Bishop, could you tell me please a little bit about the Thanksgiving celebration you had. What do you generally do, what do you say to each other, what do you eat etc.

Well unfortunately my Thanksgiving meals have been at restaurants for the past few years for various reasons. We to have a traditional Thanksgiving next year. So I will tell you what a traditional Thanksgiving looks like. 

 

Usually the whole family comes together for a good portion of the day. For big close knit families it could be fifty people or more. Everyone brings a dish to add to the meal and it becomes a feast. The main display dish is usually a Turkey. Either Baked, deep fried, or smoked. I personally prefer cooking a nice big Ham. But I have had smoked and baked turkey in the past. Some people cook both, thats always good too lol 😆. There are usually a lot of oven baked casserole dishes like green bean casserole, hashbrown casserole, tater tot casserole, Sweet Potato casserole, or any number of other caseroles. Usually there is either a large pan of corn bread dressing or a big bowl of stuffing which can be cooked inside the turkey while it baked. All the sides are there. Mashed potatoes, corn, bread rolls, baked macaroni and cheese, etc plus all the casseroles. There are usually a great many desert dishes also. Pies of all sorts, cakes of all sorts, puddings, etcetera. 

 

In my experience usually the food is still cooking when people start to arrive. Everyone greets each other as they arrive. Adding joy and merriment to the household. There are usually football games scheduled for the day for football fans, Thanksgiving movies usually play all day for those that want to have those movies playing, and there are parades that are televised across the country. The TV is usually just background ambience tho. Everyone is usually enjoying each others conversation, joking, laughing, and just catching up with loved ones. 

 

After everyone arrives and the food is set up, everyone is asked to be quiet for the blessing. Usually an Elder or possibly minister in the family will pray and ask the blessing on the food. My daughter noticed that I don't pray. So now she likes to watch me while everyone else is praying. I usually end up making a funny face at her. But she knows not to laugh so she just smiles. Yesterday I did try to close my eyes and reflect on what I was thankful for but I knew she was staring at me and I couldn't help myself 🤣

 

After the prayer is finished we eat. And we eat way to much. After we eat we continue to talk, joke, laugh, and enjoy each others company. 

 

Eventually everyone starts to leave unless they live out of town. And in that case they may be staying there with their family. 

 

Thanksgiving started during a time of peace between European settlers in America and the Native wampanoag Indians. Here is a link to a history Channel article about that event.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/topics/thanksgiving/first-thanksgiving-meal

 

Unfortunately peace didn't remain and the native Americans are the ones that lost everything in the various wars that took place over the next 2-3 centuries after that 1621 Thanksgiving meal.

 

DB

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