The tower of Babel

[aik]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

spake

 You said, you didn't like KJV 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

17 minutes ago, aik said:

 You said, you didn't like KJV 

No, I think you misunderstood me. I do like KJV, it is the only version I use. KJV was the only one I've ever studied in. When someone quotes a scripture from another version I don't recognize it as scripture, the wording is different. So I have to look it up in KJV to see what its saying in the context I understand. 

 

Its weird even to me. But it was a big part of my indoctrination. Every church I was ever a part of taught that the king James version was the only version that should be used. 

 

So even now. Having been deconverted for over five years, I still have to look up scriptures in KJV. For me, modern English changes the meaning of a lot of scriptures. Even though it could possibly be a more accurate translation. Or it might just be in my head because I believed, and was taught, that the newer versions were watered down. And carried a weaker message than the KJV.

 

I would have to completely relearn the bible with another version for me to argue points from it. And I'm just not going to devote that much time to the bible again. I'll just have to stick with what I already know.

 

Thats why I ask people to tell me where they are quoting from so I can look it up. 

 

Thanks

DB

[aik]

35 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

No, I think you misunderstood me. I do like KJV, it is the only version I use. KJV was the only one I've ever studied in. When someone quotes a scripture from another version I don't recognize it as scripture, the wording is different. So I have to look it up in KJV to see what its saying in the context I understand. 

 

Its weird even to me. But it was a big part of my indoctrination. Every church I was ever a part of taught that the king James version was the only version that should be used. 

 

So even now. Having been deconverted for over five years, I still have to look up scriptures in KJV. For me, modern English changes the meaning of a lot of scriptures. Even though it could possibly be a more accurate translation. Or it might just be in my head because I believed, and was taught, that the newer versions were watered down. And carried a weaker message than the KJV.

 

I would have to completely relearn the bible with another version for me to argue points from it. And I'm just not going to devote that much time to the bible again. I'll just have to stick with what I already know.

 

Thats why I ask people to tell me where they are quoting from so I can look it up. 

 

Thanks

DB

Ok. I am looking at Berean Study Bible. Just watching after text. It seems to me an accurate translation. But only KJV I have read in English (New Testament). Just FYI.

[aik]

On 11/28/2022 at 12:56 PM, walterpthefirst said:

 

Then that directly contradicts Numbers 23 : 19

 

God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfil it?

 

According to this passage human repentance cannot change god's mind.

 

 

Yes it can. 

 

Repentence changes the whole life. When God said to a a man His judgement that he shall die because of his wekedness, and a man repents from his sins, he will be saved. 

 

Ninevites were saved because of their repentence. 

 

A story from Acts chapter 8.

 

¹⁸ And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, ¹⁹ Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. ²⁰ But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. ²¹ Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. ²² Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. ²³ For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. ²⁴ Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me. Acts 8:18-24

 

Shows that there is a judgement. But when it comes repentence God may change his mind. And it is normal in sense that God wants to save everybody and that everybody repented, but unfortunately most of the part of people won't. 

 

Another story is with King David. He has sinned. Became guilty before God. God rebuked him through his prophet Nathan. And David siincerely repented. It is shown in Psalms chapter 51. Read it. 

 

The Bible says that God forgives but does not leave without punishment. What does it mean? It means that God forgives a sin when a man repents, and never acknowledges him again, but sometimes God applies punishment to teach us. 

 

Well David was forgiven, but he lost his firstborn from Bersabea, and then he had many problems within his family whith his sons and so on. These were punishment from God. But notice that David never said "God!!! what have I done to thee? Why are you so cruel? You are not good..." Why? because David believed God was his Saviour, his Lord, his Father. David loved the God's law.

 

So when a man repents, he turns away God's decision. And if you repent, you will seу how Jesus will save you and open your eyes and change your mind. 

 

The passage you gave above tells us that God is unchangeable, His law is eternal and holy, He when He said will do it. And even the whole world gather together and say in one voice that there is no God, then God's word will happen anyway. If God said to Abraham I will bless you. So He blessed him, though Israel fell before God, but the blessings fell upon us today through the mighty hand of Jesus Christ. Praised be His name. 

[walterpthefirst]

For your information aik, your reply to Dark Bishop about light before the Sun is totally wrong.

 

Light is made up of photons.

 

But cosmic rays are atomic nuclei or electrons.

 

Not the same at all.

 

So you haven't answered Dark Bishop's point.

 

 

 

Edit:

If you think that scientists are liars, perhaps you shouldn't try and use science to answer our questions?

[walterpthefirst]

4 minutes ago, aik said:

Yes it can. 

 

Repentence changes the whole life. When God said to a a man His judgement that he shall die because of his wekedness, and a man repents from his sins, he will be saved. 

 

Ninevites were saved because of their repentence. 

 

A story from Acts chapter 8.

 

¹⁸ And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, ¹⁹ Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. ²⁰ But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. ²¹ Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. ²² Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. ²³ For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. ²⁴ Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me. Acts 8:18-24

 

Shows that there is a judgement. But when it comes repentence God may change his mind. And it is normal in sense that God wants to save everybody and that everybody repented, but unfortunately most of the part of people won't. 

 

Another story is with King David. He has sinned. Became guilty before God. God rebuked him through his prophet Nathan. And David siincerely repented. It is shown in Psalms chapter 51. Read it. 

 

The Bible says that God forgives but does not leave without punishment. What does it mean? It means that God forgives a sin when a man repents, and never acknowledges him again, but sometimes God applies punishment to teach us. 

 

Well David was forgiven, but he lost his firstborn from Bersabea, and then he had many problems within his family whith his sons and so on. These were punishment from God. But notice that David never said "God!!! what have I done to thee? Why are you so cruel? You are not good..." Why? because David believed God was his Saviour, his Lord, his Father. David loved the God's law.

 

So when a man repents, he turns away God's decision. And if you repent, you will seу how Jesus will save you and open your eyes and change your mind. 

 

The passage you gave above tells us that God is unchangeable, His law is eternal and holy, He when He said will do it. And even the whole world gather together and say in one voice that there is no God, then God's word will happen anyway. If God said to Abraham I will bless you. So He blessed him, though Israel fell before God, but the blessings fell upon us today through the mighty hand of Jesus Christ. Praised be His name. 

 

If god is unchangeable then he cannot relent because the Ninevites repented.

 

Relenting means changing your mind.

 

So, if you say that the repentance of the Ninevites changed god's mind by causing him to relent you are contradicting Numbers 23 : 19 (and other bible passages) which say that god does not change.

 

Either god cannot change, which means that he cannot relent.

 

Or god can change, which means that the bible contradicts itself.

 

 

 

 

[aik]

11 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

For your information aik, your reply to Dark Bishop about light before the Sun is totally wrong.

 

Light is made up of photons.

 

But cosmic rays are atomic nuclei or electrons.

 

Not the same at all.

 

So you haven't answered Dark Bishop's point.

 

 

 

Edit:

If you think that scientists are liars, perhaps you shouldn't try and use science to answer our questions?

You are ignorant. 

Hellium is a gas. but when ionized it gives light. And not only hellum, other particle also give light in some conditions. And see that there is voltage a huge voltage in it. 

[aik]

9 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

If god is unchangeable then he cannot relent because the Ninevites repented.

 

Relenting means changing your mind.

 

So, if you say that the repentance of the Ninevites changed god's mind by causing him to relent you are contradicting Numbers 23 : 19 (and other bible passages) which say that god does not change.

 

Either god cannot change, which means that he cannot relent.

 

Or god can change, which means that the bible contradicts itself.

 

 

 

 

What's wrong with you? Are you ok? Read again my post and let's talk. 

[aik]

24 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Edit:

If you think that scientists are liars, perhaps you shouldn't try and use science to answer our questions?

I do not say scientists are liars. I say scientists lie too much, especially those who do not believe in God. Though i believ that not every scientist lies, to be honest. And I say that science is good when it is placed in its right place. and it is used in a right way. Inventions are given by God, education comes from God, wisdom is from God. So we have it from God. Science is good.

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, aik said:

You are ignorant. 

Hellium is a gas. but when ionized it gives light. And not only hellum, other particle also give light in some conditions. And see that there is voltage a huge voltage in it. 

 

I don't dispute what you say about helium, aik.

 

But if you are going to rely on the ionization of helium to support your claims about light on in the book of Genesis then you also need to do two more things.

 

1.

Demonstrate that the gas Helium was present on Earth at that time.

 

2.

Demonstrate a viable scientific mechanism where helium can be ionized on Earth at that time.

 

I'll wait for you to do these things.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, aik said:

I do not say scientists are liars. I say scientists lie too much, especially those who do not believe in God. Though i believ that not every scientist lies, to be honest. And I say that science is good when it is placed in its right place. and it is used in a right way. Inventions are given by God, education comes from God, wisdom is from God. So we have it from God. Science is good.

 

Except for when it contradicts the bible.

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, aik said:

What's wrong with you? Are you ok? Read again my post and let's talk. 

 

There's no need for me to re-read your post, aik.

 

You are impaled on the horns of a dilemma.

 

If you say that god changes his mind by relenting, that contradicts Numbers 23 : 19.

 

If you say that god does not change his mind, then he cannot relent.

 

And that contradicts Jonah 3 : 10, which says that god relented.

 

 

God cannot change his mind and never change his mind.

 

See it now?

 

 

 

 

[aik]

3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

I don't dispute what you say about helium, aik.

 

But if you are going to rely on the ionization of helium to support your claims about light on in the book of Genesis then you also need to do two more things.

 

1.

Demonstrate that the gas Helium was present on Earth at that time.

 

2.

Demonstrate a viable scientific mechanism where helium can be ionized on Earth at that time.

 

I'll wait for you to do these things.

Look Walter,

 

First of all it does not say that the light was only on the earth to show you hellium light on the earth. 

 

Second, you have to understand if you are honest enough. Who was that smart guy here talking about grabbing straws? The Bible is given to us not to prove science or prove God's existence. The Bible is a revelation of God about Himself. The revelation is for our salvation and eternal life. I am speaking using simple terms for you to understand. The Bible is not a study book of chemistry or astronomy. Light is light in Bible. But if you want to know the chemistry of light, open another book, man. I am referring to scientific issues to show you that your knowledge and the knowledge of any man graduated from Harvard is limited. That means that you even now do not know what you are talking about when you speak aboiut God. 

 

God is a spirit. One cannot explore a spirit using a natural instrument. Spiritual thing should be researched by spiritual instruments.

[walterpthefirst]

If we see these rays come from outside of our galaxy. 

 

 

aik, if cosmic rays come from outside of our galaxy then the nearest source is the Large Magellanic Cloud.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Magellanic_Cloud

 

Which is 163,000 light years away.

 

Which means that the cosmic rays you say are the source of light in Genesis are 163,000 years old.

 

By relying on these cosmic rays you are saying that the Earth is at least 163,000 years old.

 

 

So, are you a Young Earth Creationist?

 

 

 

[aik]

8 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

There's no need for me to re-read your post, aik.

 

You are impaled on the horns of a dilemma.

 

If you say that god changes his mind by relenting, that contradicts Numbers 23 : 19.

 

If you say that god does not change his mind, then he cannot relent.

 

And that contradicts Jonah 3 : 10, which says that god relented.

 

 

God cannot change his mind and never change his mind.

 

See it now?

 

 

 

 

If this is the measure of your understanding, i have nothing to say. Go ahead.

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, aik said:

Look Walter,

 

First of all it does not say that the light was only on the earth to show you hellium light on the earth. 

 

Second, you have to understand if you are honest enough. Who was that smart guy here talking about grabbing straws? The Bible is given to us not to prove science or prove God's existence. The Bible is a revelation of God about Himself. The revelation is for our salvation and eternal life. I am speaking using simple terms for you to understand. The Bible is not a study book of chemistry or astronomy. Light is light in Bible. But if you want to know the chemistry of light, open another book, man. I am referring to scientific issues to show you that your knowledge and the knowledge of any man graduated from Harvard is limited. That means that you even now do not know what you are talking about when you speak aboiut God. 

 

God is a spirit. One cannot explore a spirit using a natural instrument. Spiritual thing should be researched by spiritual instruments.

 

Ah, so you can't demonstrate that ionized helium was present in the time of Genesis.

 

Your claim has failed.

 

And so you now attack science instead of admitting that you were mistaken.

 

 

[aik]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

If we see these rays come from outside of our galaxy. 

 

 

aik, if cosmic rays come from outside of our galaxy then the nearest source is the Large Magellanic Cloud.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Magellanic_Cloud

 

Which is 163,000 light years away.

 

Which means that the cosmic rays you say are the source of light in Genesis are 163,000 years old.

 

By relying on these cosmic rays you are saying that the Earth is at least 163,000 years old.

 

 

So, are you a Young Earth Creationist?

 

 

 

Well. I believe in young age of the earth. 

[aik]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Ah, so you can't demonstrate that ionized helium was present in the time of Genesis.

 

Your claim has failed.

 

And so you now attack science instead of admitting that you were mistaken.

 

 

Hellium in my post was an example how  light can be light when it is not photons. and that's all. 

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, aik said:

Well. I believe in young age of the earth. 

 

And how old was the Earth when the cosmic rays you mentioned caused the helium to glow?

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, aik said:

Hellium in my post was an example how  light can be light when it is not photons. and that's all. 

 

Ok, so if there was no helium on the Earth at the beginning, how could there be any light?

 

Cosmic rays are not light.

 

For cosmic rays to cause light they need to interact with helium.

 

So, was there any helium on Earth at that time? 

[aik]

7 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Ok, so if there was no helium on the Earth at the beginning, how could there be any light?

 

Cosmic rays are not light.

 

For cosmic rays to cause light they need to interact with helium.

 

So, was there any helium on Earth at that time? 

[walterpthefirst]

11 minutes ago, aik said:

 

Well done.

 

 

But what you've quoted is what we know about helium and cosmic rays from modern measurements.

 

If you claim that the same thing happened in the days of Genesis then you have to show evidence from that time.

 

Can you do that?

 

 

There's also the problem of the age of the cosmic rays... 163,000 years.

 

If they were hitting the Earth at the time of Genesis then they must have come from their source 163,000 years earlier.

 

But you believe in a Young Earth.

 

Younger than 163,000 years?

 

 

How old do you believe the Young Earth is, aik?

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

13 minutes ago, aik said:

I'll ask both you and @walterpthefirst this question.

 

From what I'm reading it doesn't look like this reaction puts off much light. It says one can be detected from earths surface but another can only be seen using balloons. I can't imagine this light being bright enough to cause a day and night cycle that would be considered a morning and evening. 

 

Also this light would be a constant light correct? Again this light does not have a day and night pattern to it. The description the bible gives is a bright light that illuminated everything. And it alternated between light and darkness like our days and nights do. 

 

I don't believe the Bible is depicting cosmic rays. And I think it is a huge stretch to make an apologetic teaching out of it. 

 

This is for you AIK.

Does your church teach this about the cosmic rays. Or is this some conclusion you came up with?

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

36 minutes ago, aik said:

If this is the measure of your understanding, i have nothing to say. Go ahead.

 

If you have a better understanding then let's hear about it, aik.

 

Here's the problem for your understanding to solve.

 

If you say that god changes his mind by relenting, that contradicts Numbers 23 : 19.

 

If you say that god does not change his mind, then he cannot relent.

 

And that contradicts Jonah 3 : 10, which says that god relented.

 

 

You've already ducked out of my questions once.

 

Walter, do not try to catch me. I do not know how it was shown to Jesus.

 

Are you ducking out again?

 

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, DarkBishop said:

I'll ask both you and @walterpthefirst this question.

 

From what I'm reading it doesn't look like this reaction puts off much light. It says one can be detected from earths surface but another can only be seen using balloons. I can't imagine this light being bright enough to cause a day and night cycle that would be considered a morning and evening. 

 

Also this light would be a constant light correct? Again this light does not have a day and night pattern to it. The description the bible gives is a bright light that illuminated everything. And it alternated between light and darkness like our days and nights do. 

 

I don't believe the Bible is depicting cosmic rays. And I think it is a huge stretch to make an apologetic teaching out of it. 

 

This is for you AIK.

Does your church teach this about the cosmic rays. Or is this some conclusion you came up with?

 

DB

 

aik cannot show that cosmic rays are the light source for the days and nights in Genesis.

 

That's because they arrive at the Earth from outer space from ALL DIRECTIONS.

 

They don't switch themselves on during the day and off at night.

 

Nor do they hit only one side of the Earth, as sunlight does, creating day and night.

 

They arrive from extremely powerful sources, sometimes millions of light years away.

 

So unless aik want to change the speed of light his cosmic rays are hundreds of thousands or millions of years old.

 

 

Which is inconvenient for a Young Earth Creationist.