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Your father's DNA


aik
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8 minutes ago, aik said:

"You haven't responded to your thread "New Christian Visitor," where I provided observable, testable, independently verifiable facts that prove that the god as defined by Christians cannot possibly exist. Until you provide observable, testable, independently verifiable facts that the Christian god does exist, I maintain that he/she/it does not. If you can provide such facts and in such number as to equal or exceed the facts against it, I will concede that he/she/it does exist and I'll even send you a selfie of me in church getting baptized. Until then, my facts prevail."

 

The proof of God is Jesus. A person of Jesus. Study Him and you will find what you are asking from me. Jesus is the evidence. If Jesus was what it was said in the Bible about Him then God is alive.

Show me the evidence. Tangible, testable, verifiable evidence. Lacking that, you have no claim.

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2 minutes ago, older said:

Show me the evidence. Tangible, testable, verifiable evidence. Lacking that, you have no claim.

Jesus was a real man, He was touched, He verified the God's truth said about Him, He showd God's power. He died and resurrected from death. And there were witnesses, not one, not two, but many witnesses. And they died telling us about what they saw.

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9 minutes ago, aik said:

Jesus was a real man, He was touched, He verified the God's truth said about Him, He showd God's power. He died and resurrected from death. And there were witnesses, not one, not two, but many witnesses. And they died telling us about what they saw.

Go back to the other thread. Follow the links I put there to the photographs that are my evidence. Look at each and every photograph for at least ten seconds. No quickly zooming through them. Then come back here and tell me that your god, who knows everything and can do anything, and who loves us all, but did nothing to prevent or stop what is shown in those photographs, exists.

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2 minutes ago, older said:

Go back to the other thread. Follow the links I put there to the photographs that are my evidence. Look at each and every photograph for at least ten seconds. No quickly zooming through them. Then come back here and tell me that your god, who knows everything and can do anything, and who loves us all, but did nothing to prevent or stop what is shown in those photographs, exists.

Give me the link

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39 minutes ago, aik said:

Thank you. 

 

"What a strange thing to say. " 

 

I know that it is strange. But it is more strange when one takes a monkey looking at him and takes a man looking at him, and he says they are pretty similar they must be relatives. Or one takes various stories in various religions telling us about virgin birth, about god as a man etc, and he says, look, we know where the story of the bible comes from. This is what i call belief in such kind of evidence. Because it has nothing to do with reality. Or even one brings his limited human logics about A=B, B=C then A=C, and he tries to prove that Buddha was the same as Jesus. If we get into real scientific conclusions we will find many of this stuff. 

 

"Listen, friend, when there is evidence, faith is irrelevant and unnecessary... because there is evidence.  When a sufficient amount of evidence supports a certain principle or hypothesis, then that principle is considered a fact; and facts do not require faith.  Facts only require understanding, knowledge, and acceptance."

 

I agree with it.

 

"If you had a DNA test done, would you believe by faith that the red-headed milkman really was your father?  Or would you accept it as an established fact based on the results of the test?  Perhaps, if you're like me, you'd want the test run in triplicate to verify the results.  Would you accept the results after 3 tests?  7 tests?  12? "

 

This is what i am talking about. If I believe by faith that the milkman is my father then it means that I have evidence to believe otherwise I will never call him a father. And by the way, if I have faith about my father then I don't need to make scientific DNA test, because I have knowledge already. 

 

"Or would you still cling to the idea that blonde-haired Volodya really is your papa because he's married to your blonde-haired matushka? "

 

Volodya has almost no hair. And he never told me that he was my father and never proved it to me.

 

"That is the difference between faith and knowledge"

 

Very wrong claim. Knowledge may come from faith, if the faith has its evidences.

 

The idea of trying to correct you on literally every point you have attempted to make here is exhausting to even consider.  As a result, rather than getting bogged down in the minitiae, I will take a broader view. 

 

It needs to be pointed out that, in every detail of your post, what you are ultimately admitting is that you will cling to your faith regardless of, and indeed in spite of, whatever evidence to the contrary is presented to you.  

 

You will cling to your faith no matter what the evidence demonstrates.  You will ignore, explain away, disregard, mock, over-simplify the evidence by any means necessary in order to cling to your faith.

 

Yours is a mind that is closed to the evidence, to any evidence that contradicts your predetermined conclusion.  You are only willing to accept evidence that can be twisted to support the conclusion you have already drawn and are unwilling to change.  This is not an open mind, despite your assurances to us that you would enter into debates with an open mind.

 

This is a sad caricature of a life devoid of any meaning outside of the faith which blinds you to the obvious realities around you.  It is, however, your life; and you are welcome to live it as you see fit.

 

I am not convinced, though, by your misunderstanding of logic, genetics, Evolutionary Theory, or paternal anfractuosities.  Clearly someone who deliberately misunderstands these things, who chooses to remain in ignorance in favor of faith, has nothing of any merit or value to offer me.

 

Большое спасибо; но мне не нужно ничего, что у тебя есть.

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2 hours ago, aik said:

"For instance you and I may agree on many of the same thiings. You call them good and bad, and I call them positive behavior and negative behavior, I might throw in a thing or two in the good side like fornication, and throw to the bad side as not morally good to eat meat, but we probably would agree on most of the same things concerning good and bad"

 

OK. but which one is true, who decides what is good and what is bad . Obviously your values do not fit with mine (for example). You maybe heard much about religions. You are right that religions are dangerous. But the Bible does not tell us to follow religion, the Bible puts Jesus in a core of life and shows in Him what the God is. For example we see that Jesus is life giver from the Bible, so no one else, Jesus sacrifice Himself for us, no one else, Jesus has power of God, no one else and so on. In Jesus we see the love of God and in no one else. Open your Bible and seek for God. You will see that Jesus never taught us to follow religion.

 

"Yes, my DNA test is similar to my siblings but my parents died of old age. Usually you can be more certain that your mother is your mother, but based upon statistics from 5-10 % do not know of their real father."

 

The point of the question is the basement on which we are making conclusion one to be the father. There are out of science evidences which show better the true situation. For example relationship of your parents with you. 

 

"I believe there is no evidence in the slightest that it could be true IMHO."

 

It is also your belief. On what is based this belief of yours? on which basement or evidence? Have you ever read the Bible to check it out? have you ever tried to build relationships with God based on the Word of God? I know that we are on the ex-christian website. 

 

For atheists everyone decides for themselves their own morals, what's good and what's bad. Of course if your behavior is outside the law then one would have to pay the penalty. Every atheist is their own God and you make your own decisions based upon how you want to live. I didn't hear about religions, I studied them and what I consider to be their totally ridiculous assertions and beliefs in that not any of it is true IMO. It's all just a fantasy. I don't believe Jesus was a real person and the little of the old or new testament is true. It's all totally the same as Greek mythology. God of the bible is exactly the same as Zeus, just a later fantasy of the last few  millennia.

 

Everything in the bible is something to laugh at IMHO. Heaven, Hell, God, Jesus, etc. just another fantasy in the history of mankind.

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3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Did he have a red-headed peter?

 

No, but we do have a redneck Paul in the family.

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2 hours ago, aik said:

"However, I have never felt any need to question my link to my (now-deceased) father.  None.  He was a major part of my upbringing, and I'm grateful for the time that I got to spend with him."

 

The question here is: Why didn't you ever feel any need to question your link to a man whom you so many times had been calling "father" with a gentleness you tell us? How did you know that he was your father? Can  you  tell me? 

 

Why didn't I feel a need?  Because in my life, he acted like my father.

 

I will never have 100% confirmation that he was my father.  I don't care.  At all.  If some other man were the DNA donor, the fact that I never met him automatically eliminates him from any claim to be my father.

 

Just like your invisible, intangible, undetectable and almost certainly fictional god - another pseudo-father unworthy of serious consideration.

 

Now stop asking such insufferably rude personal questions.  It's really none of your business and it makes your beliefs look even more repugnant than they already are.

 

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1 hour ago, Astreja said:

 

Why didn't I feel a need?  Because in my life, he acted like my father.

 

I will never have 100% confirmation that he was my father.  I don't care.  At all.  If some other man were the DNA donor, the fact that I never met him automatically eliminates him from any claim to be my father.

 

Just like your invisible, intangible, undetectable and almost certainly fictional god - another pseudo-father unworthy of serious consideration.

 

Now stop asking such insufferably rude personal questions.  It's really none of your business and it makes your beliefs look even more repugnant than they already are.

 

Bingo!

 

Sometimes we need get deeper to understand things. And nobody is making you to accept some other belief, I am here to share.

 

Look how strong you are convinced by your subjective evidence. And I completely agree with you. The fact that I never met him automatically eliminates him from any claim to be my father. Great!

 

Now the same story is mine with my Father, which is God. He acted and is acting like my father. Is this subjective? Yes. Is it one of evidences I have? Yes. My father is invisible to you, like many other fathers in the worlds are invisible to me. The only difference is that my father can be yours also, and He wishes to be your Father, He wishes you to know Him personally. To build personal relationship with Him. This is what I have. The only difference is, you said you are not sure 100% that he was your father. But I am sure that He is my Father. He has given me His evidence in me. I know in whom I believe. Even if all the scientists of the world come to a conclusion that there is no God upon their scientific grounds, I know that there is God because I know Him, I hear Him to speak, I see His acts. AND WE CHRISTIANS JUST SHARE ABOUT THE GOD WITH YOU. To trust or not, it's up to you only.

 

This was a subjective evidence which may somtimes mean more that any objective one. 

 

But look at another thing- "invisible". I am asking, please answer. Have you ever been to Russia for example?

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4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The idea of trying to correct you on literally every point you have attempted to make here is exhausting to even consider.  As a result, rather than getting bogged down in the minitiae, I will take a broader view. 

 

It needs to be pointed out that, in every detail of your post, what you are ultimately admitting is that you will cling to your faith regardless of, and indeed in spite of, whatever evidence to the contrary is presented to you.  

 

You will cling to your faith no matter what the evidence demonstrates.  You will ignore, explain away, disregard, mock, over-simplify the evidence by any means necessary in order to cling to your faith.

 

Yours is a mind that is closed to the evidence, to any evidence that contradicts your predetermined conclusion.  You are only willing to accept evidence that can be twisted to support the conclusion you have already drawn and are unwilling to change.  This is not an open mind, despite your assurances to us that you would enter into debates with an open mind.

 

This is a sad caricature of a life devoid of any meaning outside of the faith which blinds you to the obvious realities around you.  It is, however, your life; and you are welcome to live it as you see fit.

 

I am not convinced, though, by your misunderstanding of logic, genetics, Evolutionary Theory, or paternal anfractuosities.  Clearly someone who deliberately misunderstands these things, who chooses to remain in ignorance in favor of faith, has nothing of any merit or value to offer me.

 

Большое спасибо; но мне не нужно ничего, что у тебя есть.

what was it?

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3 hours ago, older said:

I thought I would open the links and see some photographed pictures. Do you offer me to read the thread? Say what you want to say right here if so.

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Generally I have short question to everyone. This is where ex-christians gather. Is here anyone besides @DarkBishop who has read the Bible at least one time in his life from Genesis to Revelation?

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aik,

 

In this thread other people have asked you for evidence to support your beliefs.

 

But now I'm going to take you back to your opening sentence of this thread.

 

 

Many people think here that the truth can be proved only by a scientific evidence. 

 

I've checked and nobody here has said that to you.

 

But if you want to prove that somebody did, then you know what you need to do.

 

Show me the evidence.

 

I'll wait.

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, aik said:

Jesus was a real man, He was touched, He verified the God's truth said about Him, He showd God's power. He died and resurrected from death. And there were witnesses, not one, not two, but many witnesses. And they died telling us about what they saw.

I'll jump in here because I am at present studying Jesus and have concluded that the Jesus of the bible never existed.

 

I have fairies at the bottom of my garden. The tangible, testable and verifiable evidence for this is the several books on my shelf that tell me about them. It is just those books that prove their existence for me.

 

What is the difference between the evidence that Christians give for the existence of Jesus and my evidence for the existence of fairies?

This is a serious question.

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8 minutes ago, nontheistpilgrim said:

I'll jump in here because I am at present studying Jesus and have concluded that the Jesus of the bible never existed.

 

I have fairies at the bottom of my garden. The tangible, testable and verifiable evidence for this is the several books on my shelf that tell me about them. It is just those books that prove their existence for me.

 

What is the difference between the evidence that Christians give for the existence of Jesus and my evidence for the existence of fairies?

This is a serious question.

Can you tell me what are those books please? I would look at them.

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3 hours ago, aik said:

what was it?

It was a pronoun.  It still is.

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37 minutes ago, aik said:

Can you tell me what are those books please? I would look at them.

I think you are joking but I'll bite.

 

The fairies at the bottom of my garden. By Susan Woods

Grimms Fairy Tales is a classic

 

Any children's bookshop will have a shelf of good books I think.

I will refrain from mentioning the biggest fairy story book.

 

For REAL proof have a look at this:

 

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9 hours ago, aik said:

I thought I would open the links and see some photographed pictures. Do you offer me to read the thread? Say what you want to say right here if so.

You need to read my posts that I linked to in that thread, watch the video I posted there, and follow the links in my posts in that thread. It's all right there for you if you are willing to read what I wrote, watch the video and follow the links in that post. Then come back here and defend your position.

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14 hours ago, aik said:

Bingo!

 

Sometimes we need get deeper to understand things. And nobody is making you to accept some other belief, I am here to share.

 

Look how strong you are convinced by your subjective evidence. And I completely agree with you. The fact that I never met him automatically eliminates him from any claim to be my father. Great!


Now the same story is mine with my Father, which is God. He acted and is acting like my father. Is this subjective? Yes. Is it one of evidences I have? Yes. My father is invisible to you, like many other fathers in the worlds are invisible to me. The only difference is that my father can be yours also...

 

Aik, I believe that you have had religious experiences, but I also believe that those experiences are completely fictional and that there is no actual god communicating with you.

 

You believe that Jesus came back from the dead.  I do not.  I believe that resurrection is literally impossible, and that all the stories about the resurrection are fictional.  By accepting and repeating those ridiculous stories, you demonstrate that your critical thinking skills are weak.

 

Your personal testimony is of no value to me.  Your alleged god has had ample opportunities to demonstrate its existence to me.  It has never succeeded.  In the past 65 years I have received absolutely no communications or signs that could be attributed to the god of Christianity.  What makes you so special, o mortal, that you think you can do better than your god?

 

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I know that there is God because I know Him, I hear Him to speak, I see His acts. AND WE CHRISTIANS JUST SHARE ABOUT THE GOD WITH YOU. To trust or not, it's up to you only.

 

I am completely lacking in religious faith.  I have no reason whatsoever to trust idiotic 2000-year-old myths that are just repackaging of other myths about god-men coming back to life.  The Jesus story isn't even an original story.

 

If your god wants to get to know me, it has to manifest in physical form so that I can talk to it face to face.  This is not negotiable.  It is my minimum evidentiary standard for believing that a god-like being exists.  It is the only thing that has even a slight chance of convincing me, and no relationship can start until that happens.

 

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But look at another thing- "invisible". I am asking, please answer. Have you ever been to Russia for example?

 

Not yet, and I won't be going in the foreseeable future because of the political situation.  The fact remains that it is possible to travel to Russia, so the existence of Russia can actually be empirically demonstrated.

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2 hours ago, Astreja said:

 

Aik, I believe that you have had religious experiences, but I also believe that those experiences are completely fictional and that there is no actual god communicating with you.

 

You believe that Jesus came back from the dead.  I do not.  I believe that resurrection is literally impossible, and that all the stories about the resurrection are fictional.  By accepting and repeating those ridiculous stories, you demonstrate that your critical thinking skills are weak.

 

Your personal testimony is of no value to me.  Your alleged god has had ample opportunities to demonstrate its existence to me.  It has never succeeded.  In the past 65 years I have received absolutely no communications or signs that could be attributed to the god of Christianity.  What makes you so special, o mortal, that you think you can do better than your god?

 

 

I am completely lacking in religious faith.  I have no reason whatsoever to trust idiotic 2000-year-old myths that are just repackaging of other myths about god-men coming back to life.  The Jesus story isn't even an original story.

 

If your god wants to get to know me, it has to manifest in physical form so that I can talk to it face to face.  This is not negotiable.  It is my minimum evidentiary standard for believing that a god-like being exists.  It is the only thing that has even a slight chance of convincing me, and no relationship can start until that happens.

 

 

Not yet, and I won't be going in the foreseeable future because of the political situation.  The fact remains that it is possible to travel to Russia, so the existence of Russia can actually be empirically demonstrated.

It is interesting to me, what made you believe that Jesus is fiction? Only fact that you never so him, or you never had relationship with him, it means that you were far from him. 

 

Why do you believe that the Bible stories are myths? What kind of a religion is it? Religion, because one can only believe in such a thing. Where did you found another original story. 

 

I cannot be better than my God. God is more alive, more acting than anyone of us. If you say that in last 65 years you received no communications and signs from God, I ask what kind of Christian life did you have then? One becomes a Christian only after God communicating with him. 

 

Ok. Of course no pressure. But in your words I saw nothing, not even one true reason to deny God. Only your experience or lack of experience.

 

Ok. Jesus is calling those who thirst for him, not those who are sitting on a chair and wait for evidences from him as a condition to believe.

 

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Hello everyone. Let us stop here now. Take i time. I think I am doing wrong debating with those whom I should show compassion. We just here are trying to prove something to each other and gain nothing. At the start I was not intended to debate yet I had not another place but the so called Lion's Den which is a place for debates. 

 

I want to say to you all. Everyone of you is valuable to me and to the God I worship. And your journeys to deconversation have the reasons, sure. Very often we do wrong things, than we understand it and do no more. Sometimes people make us to be disappointing. It happens.

 

I am here to serve Jesus, to stretch forth my hand of assistance to those who maybe doubt in their choice. Maybe here somebody feels that he is in another type of a religion, religion of denying God. Actually as I was told about this site, it was not started to be another religion, but it was a place where a man harmed by a religious system could find help, compassion, assistance. If so, then I am here also. But sometimes it seems to me that the website is going to be converted into a new religion community, when we overtry to persuade ourselves to believe in absence of God, try to find  some stronger arguments and so on. Let us be friends.

 

I allow that even here one can feel himself not like in freedom, but to be here just because there is no way to go else. 

 

I lived 29 years without Jesus, I saw his miracles, as well I saw how gangsters become saints, but anyway I thought that I know everything I need to know. Even there was a single situation when I called myself to be god. But when Jesus came to my life, I am not talking about afterlife which i believe also, but what I gained from Jesus in this life already gives me a huge base to know that He is a Saviour. He saved me from my sins, gave me a purpose for life, gave me a foundation, taught me to be strong, to bear difficult times with glory, He is teaching to me to love others, everyone I say, even when it is difficult to love, He teaches to love. To be humble before God means to become stronger in life, in mind, to learn how to control yourself. It is a small part from what I was taught by Jesus. 

 

I have to go now, I am late today on my work because of this post. I wish all of you having a nice day or night, whatever you have.

 

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3 hours ago, aik said:

It is interesting to me, what made you believe that Jesus is fiction? Only fact that you never so him, or you never had relationship with him, it means that you were far from him.

 

There may have been an ordinary man who was the model for Jesus.  The moment you start talking about nonsense like virgin birth, walking on water, and coming back from the dead, you have left the real world and are dealing in mythology.

 

There is no documented report of Jesus from the time he was supposedly alive.  If he did exist, he was very insignificant to the Romans.  The earliest stories were written in Greek several generations later.

 

The Gospel stories also do not match up with what we know about Roman-occupied Judea.  Pontius Pilate would not have honoured Jewish customs, and it's highly unlikely that he would have released any prisoners for Passover.  The Romans were under no obligation to take bodies down from crosses, either; crucifixion was intended to be a public humiliation and a warning to others, and bodies usually stayed up for many days.  In fact, guards were usually posted to prevent family members from taking the bodies down.

 

I believe that if there ever was a Jesus, he died and stayed dead, and that his bones are in a Roman mass grave somewhere under modern-day Jerusalem.

 

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If you say that in last 65 years you received no communications and signs from God, I ask what kind of Christian life did you have then?

 

None at all.  I was a "Christian in name only."  I received baptism as an infant, when I was too young to know what was going on, but I never believed.  I read the Bible but to me it was just a storybook.  I went to Sunday school a few times and still did not believe.

 

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Ok. Of course no pressure. But in your words I saw nothing, not even one true reason to deny God. Only your experience or lack of experience.

 

Ok. Jesus is calling those who thirst for him, not those who are sitting on a chair and wait for evidences from him as a condition to believe.

 

Disbelief is a sufficient reason in itself, and I need nothing more.  I think that it is extremely psychologically unhealthy to pretend to believe something that one sincerely believes is arrant nonsense, so I'm not even going to try.

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4 hours ago, aik said:

 

 

I lived 29 years without Jesus, I saw his miracles, as well I saw how gangsters become saints, but anyway I thought that I know everything I need to know. Even there was a single situation when I called myself to be god. But when Jesus came to my life, I am not talking about afterlife which i believe also, but what I gained from Jesus in this life already gives me a huge base to know that He is a Saviour. He saved me from my sins, gave me a purpose for life, gave me a foundation, taught me to be strong, to bear difficult times with glory, He is teaching to me to love others, everyone I say, even when it is difficult to love, He teaches to love. To be humble before God means to become stronger in life, in mind, to learn how to control yourself. It is a small part from what I was taught by Jesus. 

 

 

This is all very laudable, aik. 

 

But if I were to list personal experiences from my life that you cannot check or test I wouldn't expect you to believe that they are true.

 

And this is the very point you fail to understand.

 

Your personal experiences cannot be tested or checked by us to see if they are true.

 

Just as nobody here should believe my personal experiences without evidence, so we do not believe yours.

 

The same rule applies to me as it applies to you.

 

Personal experiences do not count as objective evidence.

 

It doesn't matter to us how much YOU believe something is true or what YOU have experienced.

 

The only thing that matters to us is objective evidence - because that is something that we can test and check.

 

We don't accept anything by faith.

 

Do you understand now?

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AKI you serve Jesus - yes?

As I stated already I have been studying Jesus. I am ready to write my conclusions.

Christians believe that Jesus is God - yes? So as I am researching Jesus, I am researching God - yes?

So when I find evidence for Jesus, I have found evidence for God. Yes?

And here is my problem.....I have not found any evidence that Jesus was a real person (the one that Christians believe in, not the others with the same name).

You say you want me to find Jesus - yes?

AIK can you help me find your Jesus, irrefutable proof, if you can.

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