What's Love Got To Do With It [God]?

[Hierophant]

I was thinking about a title for this post and the Tina Turner song lyrics came to mind - thanks Tina.

 

The purpose of this thread is to address a comment from @duderonomy regarding the Christian God's love. In another thread, the idea that God loves his creation was brought into question because of the intense amount of suffering that occurs on a daily basis. Duderonomy replied that the Bible stated there would be wars, famine, pestilence, etc., therefore, the daily suffering that occurs in our reality is compatible with the God of the Bible.

 

There are a few different ways to tackle this topic, one is what the Bible says, and the other is what Christians are claiming about their theology.

 

During my questioning phase, I allowed myself to start asking questions that are taboo to consider while knee deep in the faith, and trying to reconcile "God's love" with what I and others experience, was something I pondered for quite some time. 

 

Ultimately I think Duderonomy unwittingly pointed out the contradiction we find in the Bible. The Bible has Jesus stating there was going to be suffering of some sort, then we have John stating that God is love. Right there is where we begin to see the problem, and perhaps it is a definition problem. What does John mean by, "God is love?" Should we use our intuition? If so, then I know I love my son, and I would do anything to prevent him from suffering. Should we use Paul's definition: "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth." I can say that in either definition, casual ambivalence to suffering does not really seem to be compatible.

 

Personally, I know that if I was all powerful, and had the ability to stop suffering, I would do it. It seems that any multi-omni God could do the same, if that God was love. I find it outrageous that if the Christian God was the ultimate definition of love, I simply do not see how that same God just shrugs his shoulders in apathy as nature does what it does. It gives me cognitive dissonance trying to reconcile those ideas. I simply do not enjoy seeing suffering, especially grotesque suffering. Granted, there is not much we could do as individuals, but with ultimate power, I would find a way to get rid of that bullshit. Why not make a perfect utopia...seems like the thing a truly loving, all-powerful being would do.

 

Now, let's pivot to what Christians claim about their God. I have heard time and time again statements like this: "God loves you unconditionally," "God loves your child more than you do," "God wants what is best for you," "God loves his creation," and so on and so forth.

 

My response to that, impossible. Just one example of how difficult it is to believe that: How many children were raped, or murdered, or tortured in history? How many parents were devastated by the loss of that child? There is no way God loved those children more than the parents did. I tell you this, I would sacrifice my own life and everything I have to ensure my son did not fall into such a fate. To me, that is love. Sacrificing yourself for another, or placing the needs of those you love above your own, and I do not see the Christian God acting in such a manner.

 

Even if I was ever to get back into Christianity, I would never think that God loved me. I see Christianity as a master / indentured servant relationship. God's love is limited, and definitely not unconditional. Christians suffer just as much as atheist or members of other religions. As I think about it now, I consider the relationship between Christians and the Christian God one where Christians are expected to sacrifice everything for their God, but they do not get anything in return. Possibly the hope of an eternal life in heaven, but even that is not guaranteed. Maybe they have the wrong theology and they end up in the same position as those of Matthew 7:23.

 

Apparently God does not even love those seeking the truth to meet them halfway. When I was struggling to understand what being a Christian really meant, I pleaded with God to meet give me guidance on how to be a true Christian. I wanted to know what to believe, and what to do. I was committed to sacrificing everything just so I could know, without a doubt, I was doing the will of God. My only stipulation was that I needed to hear this message from anything but another human. Christendom is rife with people floundering around with no real answers. Too many competing ideas about theology, doctrine, and dogma. I needed to know this was a direct message from God. I never received any type of answer. Why? If the Christian God really wants us to be reconciled to him, why could I not get a direct answer. I could not tee it up any better. 

 

There is a thought experiment I proposed to some JW's when they came by the house:

 

Hypothetically, suppose you are given the ultimate authority over someone's life, to include an afterlife. When they die, you will judge them. Just for kicks, we'll say there is a heaven and hell. Now, what would you do with such information? Personally, I would track them down and ensure they had all the information they needed to know what was expected. I would even ensure they were able to contact me if they had any clarifying questions, or needed advice for a situation that came up. And I would do that for someone I did not love, but would do so as a matter of duty, because it would be dishonorable and villainous if I simply ignored them and left them in the dark.

 

*Note -- let's not even go down the path of "What about Jesus on the cross." I do not buy it. The way I see it, as per basic Christian theology, everything that happened in the Bible is God's doing, A to Z. It's all just a self-inflicted gunshot wound; he is culpable for putting the trees in the garden, for demanding blood as atonement, and everything else. For reasons I do not know, Christians hate that idea, but I just find it to be how it really is.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

3 hours ago, Hierophant said:

 

Hypothetically, suppose you are given the ultimate authority over someone's life, to include an afterlife. When they die, you will judge them. Just for kicks, we'll say there is a heaven and hell. Now, what would you do with such information? Personally, I would track them down and ensure they had all the information they needed to know what was expected. I would even ensure they were able to contact me if they had any clarifying questions, or needed advice for a situation that came up. And I would do that for someone I did not love, but would do so as a matter of duty, because it would be dishonorable and villainous if I simply ignored them and left them in the dark.

 

 

EXCELENT!   

 

I also thought it was cowardly of god to sacrifice his son instead of himself.  And was cruel to ask Abraham to sacrifice his son, even if he stopped it at the last minute.   It was such a relief to find out it was all an ancient myth.

[duderonomy]

13 hours ago, Hierophant said:

I was thinking about a title for this post and the Tina Turner song lyrics came to mind - thanks Tina.

 

The purpose of this thread is to address a comment from @duderonomy regarding the Christian God's love. In another thread, the idea that God loves his creation was brought into question because of the intense amount of suffering that occurs on a daily basis. Duderonomy replied that the Bible stated there would be wars, famine, pestilence, etc., therefore, the daily suffering that occurs in our reality is compatible with the God of the Bible.

 

There are a few different ways to tackle this topic, one is what the Bible says, and the other is what Christians are claiming about their theology.

 

During my questioning phase, I allowed myself to start asking questions that are taboo to consider while knee deep in the faith, and trying to reconcile "God's love" with what I and others experience, was something I pondered for quite some time. 

 

Ultimately I think Duderonomy unwittingly pointed out the contradiction we find in the Bible. The Bible has Jesus stating there was going to be suffering of some sort, then we have John stating that God is love. Right there is where we begin to see the problem, and perhaps it is a definition problem. What does John mean by, "God is love?" Should we use our intuition? If so, then I know I love my son, and I would do anything to prevent him from suffering. Should we use Paul's definition: "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth." I can say that in either definition, casual ambivalence to suffering does not really seem to be compatible.

 

Personally, I know that if I was all powerful, and had the ability to stop suffering, I would do it. It seems that any multi-omni God could do the same, if that God was love. I find it outrageous that if the Christian God was the ultimate definition of love, I simply do not see how that same God just shrugs his shoulders in apathy as nature does what it does. It gives me cognitive dissonance trying to reconcile those ideas. I simply do not enjoy seeing suffering, especially grotesque suffering. Granted, there is not much we could do as individuals, but with ultimate power, I would find a way to get rid of that bullshit. Why not make a perfect utopia...seems like the thing a truly loving, all-powerful being would do.

 

Now, let's pivot to what Christians claim about their God. I have heard time and time again statements like this: "God loves you unconditionally," "God loves your child more than you do," "God wants what is best for you," "God loves his creation," and so on and so forth.

 

My response to that, impossible. Just one example of how difficult it is to believe that: How many children were raped, or murdered, or tortured in history? How many parents were devastated by the loss of that child? There is no way God loved those children more than the parents did. I tell you this, I would sacrifice my own life and everything I have to ensure my son did not fall into such a fate. To me, that is love. Sacrificing yourself for another, or placing the needs of those you love above your own, and I do not see the Christian God acting in such a manner.

 

Even if I was ever to get back into Christianity, I would never think that God loved me. I see Christianity as a master / indentured servant relationship. God's love is limited, and definitely not unconditional. Christians suffer just as much as atheist or members of other religions. As I think about it now, I consider the relationship between Christians and the Christian God one where Christians are expected to sacrifice everything for their God, but they do not get anything in return. Possibly the hope of an eternal life in heaven, but even that is not guaranteed. Maybe they have the wrong theology and they end up in the same position as those of Matthew 7:23.

 

Apparently God does not even love those seeking the truth to meet them halfway. When I was struggling to understand what being a Christian really meant, I pleaded with God to meet give me guidance on how to be a true Christian. I wanted to know what to believe, and what to do. I was committed to sacrificing everything just so I could know, without a doubt, I was doing the will of God. My only stipulation was that I needed to hear this message from anything but another human. Christendom is rife with people floundering around with no real answers. Too many competing ideas about theology, doctrine, and dogma. I needed to know this was a direct message from God. I never received any type of answer. Why? If the Christian God really wants us to be reconciled to him, why could I not get a direct answer. I could not tee it up any better. 

 

There is a thought experiment I proposed to some JW's when they came by the house:

 

Hypothetically, suppose you are given the ultimate authority over someone's life, to include an afterlife. When they die, you will judge them. Just for kicks, we'll say there is a heaven and hell. Now, what would you do with such information? Personally, I would track them down and ensure they had all the information they needed to know what was expected. I would even ensure they were able to contact me if they had any clarifying questions, or needed advice for a situation that came up. And I would do that for someone I did not love, but would do so as a matter of duty, because it would be dishonorable and villainous if I simply ignored them and left them in the dark.

 

*Note -- let's not even go down the path of "What about Jesus on the cross." I do not buy it. The way I see it, as per basic Christian theology, everything that happened in the Bible is God's doing, A to Z. It's all just a self-inflicted gunshot wound; he is culpable for putting the trees in the garden, for demanding blood as atonement, and everything else. For reasons I do not know, Christians hate that idea, but I just find it to be how it really is.

 

Hello Hi.  Your ideas are mine too, both as a Christian and as an Ex-C.

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

[older]

Reminds me of what George Carlin said once: "Religion has convinced people that there is an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do every minute of every day, and the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do, and if you do any of these ten things he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry for ever and ever until the end of time. But he loves you."

[duderonomy]

1 minute ago, older said:

Reminds me of what George Carlin said once: "Religion has convinced people that there is an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do every minute of every day, and the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do, and if you do any of these ten things he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry for ever and ever until the end of time. But he loves you."

 

Yeah, another Strawman Jesus situation.  Carlin was funny, but not anywhere close to accurate about Biblegod or the Bible.   Just sayin'.