What Is Evidence / How Do We Know What Is Real?

[aik]

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

I'll have to catch up on the replies today but I owe you a reply and need to make one before it gets to late. 

 

I don't doubt that you are Christian. To me, you have proven that here in the forums just by the demeanor of your messages and your fervent adherence to your faith. I expected you to point that out as evidence but maybe to do so would have seemed vain to you....? In the scripture Jesus tells us what to look for in:

 

Mathew 7

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

In this Jesus is talking about false prophets but this can also be applied to a faithful Christian. Also reflected in the book of James.

 

James 2

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

Here we see some key wording in the bible. It shows us that there is something expected of the faithful. Just as Jesus said in Mathew 7, a good tree will bear good fruit. Also a Christian will work the works of Christ. It is a necessity to work the work of Christ to retain your salvation. Or atleast that is what I see here. It even asks the question can faith alone save you? The answer is no. This gets confusing to some Christians because of what is said in ephesians chapter 2. Especially to the Baptist. 

 

Ephesians 2.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

Here we see that it is said that salvation is a gift and not a gift obtained by works. Which is true biblically. But notice that it also says that ye are saved through faith. While biblically no one can be saved by their works alone and they must go through faith in Christ to receive the gift of salvation. There is work to be done after salvation and faith. And if those works aren't there. Faith is dead. And if faith is dead without works, salvation is lost. Biblically it is freely given but must be maintained afterward. 

 

Also in ephesians we get a pretty good example of the fruits of a Christian. Which I believe you reflect Aik.

 

Ephesian 4

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

Notice that there is to be an obvious change in a Christian. His demeanor changes. The man that was once a thief will now work honestly to aide those in need. Laying down his wrath, anger, and evil speaking. To be kind, tender hearted, and forgiving. 

Hello my dear friend @DarkBishop 

 

I have time to reply to your book. LOL. I divided in into parts in my mind. 

 

I completely agree with you in your analysis of faith and deeds, besides some details, I agree with you. 

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

This same type of change could be seen in someone who decides to start practicing Buddhism. Some of the kindest people I've known have been Hindu. In my youth I was interested in Wicca. I met some people during this time who had a deep and profound respect and love for nature. This was core to their beliefs. Anyone can have a change in consciousness and become a better person. One of the mottos of my fraternity is: "Taking good men and making them better". There is great wisdom in the lectures of masonry that teach us to be better people. To consider others and what they may be going through before jumping to conclusions. Not to let religious differences affect how we treat one another. 

 

Look what we have here. 

 

He who believes in Buddhism, he will be at most like Buddha, in Krishnaism - like Krishna, in Koran - like Muhammad, in Jesus - like Jesus. 

 

Jesus' love is to put his life for his friends, for sinners and for the world. So we christians believe in such a love. 

 

Muhammad for example, he did some merciful actions, but not only that. If we look at these actions we will assume that the muslim are the most merciful ever. But look what Muhammad had besides his merciful actions. Muhammad had sexual relationships with many women and even a child girl. He kept slaves, he killed to protect his dignity. It is enough for now. So if we say a muslim belief, we should consider that the muslim not only believes in merciful actions. A muslim approves everything that Muhammad did. It means that a muslim approves killing for protection of his dignity, having sex with many women and even a child girl (if circumstances are given). 

 

If we speak about Krishnaites, so take into account that apart from best things that Krishna showed in his teaching he had sexually not holy way of life. I am saying "not holy", but you can go into google and find a sexual life of Krishna. So the one who believes in Krishna, he not only believes in good of Krishna, but also he approves his "not holy" deeds. 

 

I never heard about what Buddha was and never heard about wiccans. But I believe if we put their lives under a microscope of the Biblical holiness of Jesus Christ they will fail. Why? because they were men like us in everything. 

 

The Bible says that everyone is like what he believes in (in relation to idol worshiping). So the muslim say that Muhammad is the best kind of the mankind, he is a sample of conduct. So when a ,muslim does Jihaad, he approves what Koran says. But when christian goes to kill to protect his faith, hi does straight the opposite of what Jesus taught and did in his life. 

 

Yes, many people try to become better. But what "better" they have in the result? When a muslim teaches me that we should not have adultery in our life, it means only either he denies some aspects of his prophet's teachings or he approves in his mind some actions that are adultery, and calls it a multiple marriage, for example. None of these are applicable to a christian. 

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

Not by faith but because it was written.

By faith in what the had read.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

In reality none of these things happened.

How do you know it?

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

Or at the very least they have not been able to be verified through archeology

Archeology is weak. 

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

Our discoveries do not reflect a creation anything like what is depicted in the bible.

We cannot discover everything we had in ancient times. We sometimes are not even able to learn what we had the day before in our home until someone tells us. Even criminal experts are not always able to expose what a criminal had done a month ago, having instruments, education, groups of experts, witnesses and so on. Investigation can fail sometimes. Do not pay attention so much to such things, Bishop. Just accept that we as a human are not perfect to know everything, even if we four-fold graduated from the best universities of the world. 

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

There is a mountain of verifiable evidence that the flood of Noah never happened.

There is another mountain of verifiable evidence that the flood of Noah did happen.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

I'm talking about a world wide flood as depicted in Genesis.

Did you pay attention that in Genesis it is never spoken about such mounts like Everest and others. We cannot say how high were the highest hills in that time. Maybe Ararat was not 5 km high, and it is not necessarily the very top of contemporary peak of Ararat, which is Masis mount. But somebody found there evidences of Noah's boat. There are videos on it, i watched once. But actually i do not pay much attention to such things, I mean i do not construct my faith on scientific issues. 

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

There is very little proof that Moses ever existed or that the exodus ever happened

It means...it means that everyone who says that Moses never existed is a Liar! If there is the least proof of something it means that we never can deny its existence.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

There is no verifiable proof of Abraham. Oh I'm sure that there were some actual people with some of these names that inspired the myths and legends that came to be. But we can go through each example that is given in Hebrews 11 and conclude that there is no sufficient evidence to prove that any of those things happened. Had they known during that time that these events couldn't be proven I doubt that Hebrews 11 would ever have been written. They wrote about them as factual examples of the faith of others who (unknowingly to the writer) probably never existed. 

The text in the Bible is enough for Abraham. If some people cannot find any evidences out of the Bible to be convinced if Abraham was a true character or not, it is a problem of that person. Maybe all stories about Abraham were collected into a book which is now called  Bible. He lived in ancient times. It is normal that people cannot find his bones, He lived 4000 thousand years ago. Can you find a paper in which a bubble gum you chewed one year ago had been wrapped? Many artefacts are lost in history. I think, generally speaking,  if we had kept all the artefacts of what really happened in history, then we had another picture of the history today. 

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

Had archeologists and scientist been able to prove that these people and events existed.

... atheists would find another ways how to discount the Bible together with those archeologists and scientists. And they do it today.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

However, that proof has never been found.

You may not know everything. I mean you just maybe have lack of information. 

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

Therefore,

what comes after "therefore" is already a mistake, because the base reason is not correct. Read your previous sentence.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

You have presented your mothers miraculous recovery from cancer as proof

Look. Let us make it clear. I never said that my mother was recovered from a cancer. What I really said was that my mother was healed by Jesus from her disease which doctors were unable to do, and in another post I spoke about healing from the 4th degree cancer, meaning one of my sisters in Christ, here where I live.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

I would attest that miracles could in fact be proof if those miracles were. 

 

1. Exclusive to Christians 

And

2. Reflected what Jesus prophesied would happen after him. 

 

Concerning the 1st point. Miracles like your mothers are not exclusive to Christianity but can be claimed by people of different faiths all over the world. 

 

Why exclusive to christians? 

 

Is God unable to do good to anyone he wishes? answer please. If he can do good to anyone, it does not discount God's miracle to be a miracle. What is the problem?

 

Please explain what do you mean saying "Reflected what Jesus prophesied would happen after him". I could not understand it. 

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

You have attested in this thread that God doesn't answer all prayers. And I would tend to agree that there are prayers and circumstances where an all knowing God would not answer a prayer. But the problem lies in the fact that God is more in the business of not answering prayers than he is in answering them. Or atleast that is what appears to be the case.

 

God has authority to answer or to not answer. Every christian can speak about many cases in his own life where God plainly or miraculously answered his prayers. Plus, we have many testimonies worldwide where people tell about very miraculous actions of God in their lives, and some of the people are known to us. How do you say that God does not answer? 

 

But why does it seem that God is more in the business of not answering prayers than he is in answering them because most of the christians who bring such prayers, i speak generally, do not live according to their confession. So generally we see that there are no miracles. A general picture of the reason results in a general picture of effect. But speaking individually, the picture  is changed. We know in whom we believe my friend. 

 

Here I want to stop a while for your sake. My dear friend, very appreciated and beloved by God. If you did not have God's answer to one of your certain prayers or to all your prayers, go and search your faith as you have done it with the biblical text above. Get into reasons, do not fight against God, but bring all your sins before him. He is not changed. I do not know what spiritual state you had by that time when you had been praying to Jesus, but I know what can do our God to you if you humble yourself before him, if you throw your arrogance and wars against God out of your heart. He saves, He saves not only sinners of the world, He saves christians worldwide, He saves sinful christians, holy christians and everyone who wishes. Salvation from sin is not an emotion, it is deliverence which is given to us. If you go back to your Father, I promise you, He will accept you again, Bishop, He will clean your heart from disbelief, from wars, from sin, from trouble. He will clean your heart and restore you before Him in sonship. You again will have authority to deny the sin, you will have power to follow holy and pure life full of with peace, love, rejoice, compassion, empathy (a new word I have learnt from you here), your Father will give you the best of what he possesses. He will stop the satan throwing you from one place to another. And the scientist will never be able to explain how you have decided to change your mind, to stand against evil and to follow Jesus. Because science is not for that. But faith is for that. May God bless you. 

 

Ok. Let us go on.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

And I know having been a Christian that her parents, her whole family, and probably their whole Christian community prayed for her safe return.

Maybe, some christians never fast for their children. They confess that they do not pray for their children. But actually a christian parent has to pray for his children otherwise he does not know what to be a parent means. We have rare stories where a christian child gets into a big trouble, then it becomes known that the parent of that child had not cared about him. It is not necessarily that every child who is in the trouble has such parents. But I am saying that we have to investigate a certain situation to know what actually happened and why. You cannot say for 100% that parents of that child from your story were praying for their kids. But I also together with you believe that if we have a christian family then christian parents must pray for their children. It is a normal christian reality. I am happy that you also think so.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

This is one prayer that a Loving Christian God would answer if he were real. And this is just one instance.

Sometimes God punishes his children to save them from sin or evil. Hebrews chapter 12 speaks about a father punishing his kid. And God can do it as a Father, but it is an act of love. Why? because the father tries to deliver his child from evil. We should not judge those to whom God can apply such punishment, because I am not better than they, but we have to understand that love does not mean only giving food to a child, sometimes it means forbid food from the child, because the food will kill him (for example right after an operation of an appendix). 

 

For example Vladimir Nechitaylo in his testimony says how his 10-year-old son was tortured and murdered in their small instrument warehouse near the home by their enemies they had at that time. But he speaks about the God who allowed it to happen as about his Father who was leading him in pathes of life, serving Jesus, and after all his story, when he has passed through all the trouble together with God, God made policemen, drug addicts and criminals in their city to repent, to believe in Jesus, to gather together washing feet one to another. I miss details. God showed the fruit of humbleness of his minister. If you understand russian you can go to youtube and find Vladimir Nechitaylo Владимир Нечитайло свидетельство. 

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

Half the world is Christian.

a third part of the world is called to be a christian. But look what they live.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

Hunger should be gone from all the Christians multiplying food for the hungry.

Jesus did not make a miracle to teach us how to solve the problem of starvation in the world. Aim of a miracle is to bring people to faith. And locally we have testimonies about such miracles. But it does not mean that we should go and feed everyone with a miraculous bread. 

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

Sicknesses should be miraculously cured daily.

Jesus did not heal everyone around him. He did many miracles but not everyone were healed, only those who came to Jesus to have healed and to whom Jesus healed. But others stayed as they were. 

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

Let them lay hands on you, Anointing you with oil, and you'll be cured.

They did, and I got it. What is the problem? James chapter 5. I practiced in in my life twice, and both times I was healed. Once right at the same time after a church service. The second time a day later. What is the problem? Please notice that I was not only those two times sick. I was sick many times in my life, almost every time I pray for myself and others also. But only those two times I had movement in my heart to approach to the pastor and ask for praying with annointing and laying hands on me. It was from God's spirit, i mean the movement in my heart. The pastor annointed me, and he with his deacons laid hands on me and prayed. 

 

Everything has its time and place. Not every time it is necessary to try to get rid of a disease. When one falls into a pit he abviously tries to get out of the pit. But a christian should continue serving God being in a pit, and God will take him out if that pit in a proper time. It is a matter of trust, which we often do not have toward God.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

According to Jesus the world should be seeing these types of miracles coming from Christendom that he performed in his life. Yet again, that is not what happened or is happening today.

It does happen, maybe not so much in America, and even not in Russia so much, but more in places were christians are persecuted, and were people live poor life, India, China, Corea, Iran, Middle East, Africa. So many miracle happen in Turkey. So many people turn to Jesus from the muslim world daily. You do not imagine, man. Praised be the Lord.

 

Yes, the christians are losing their God and their faith, but unbelievers and sinners of the world obtain it with the more power.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

You have talked about the Holy spirit working in your life. And I assume that this is what your talking about. Leaving the lusts of the flesh behind and walking in the spirit. But again. That is also an indication of religious indoctrination

One thing is to be indoctrinated. Another thing is to have power to do it. 

 

For example I was taught how pour concrete into a form to build a house of my wife's father. I was educated in the university, I have read information from Mr.Google, and I was taught by people, but DO I HAVE ENOUGH POWER TO LIFT UP A CONCRETE BASKET TO POUR IT INTO A FORM? Theory will never give you power. Though it will lead you in a right direction, but without power you will never lift it up. I am talking about denying a sin.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

But there is really no extraordinary prophecies that have come true which we can verify. 

There are. Prophecies are given to the church to serve to the church. For example a true prophecy will reveal secret things, sinful actions for example to bring a man to repentence therefore to deliverence. A true prophecy is done to keep people away from a coming evil. For example Demos Shakarian's testimony about prophecy about the comin armenian genocide. I heard about prophecies worldwide. Or prophecies are given to bring a group of the believers to repentance. In the church we have groups of vassels of God. The minister as ones having prophetic gifts. And the ministers ask them to pray for every significant issue in the church. And God answers, and it happens. Sometimes God can keep silent. But it does not mean that the prophet is not a prophet anymore, or God is not true. It only means that God did not answer. Some prophecies are individual, they are said to an individual to save him from a case or a sin whatever. 

 

But what refers to coming of Jesus, we do not need prophecies here, we have the Biblical texts, Holy Spirit and faith. Believe and you will be saved. It is enough. I do not need that a prophet comes to me and says that Jesus is coming soon, I know it for sure. But if a prophet comes to me and says that Jesus will come on the 4th of April, I will rebuke him and deny such a word, because it is from satan. We must have ability to discern.

 

And many other things there are. 

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

But the only thing your faith has given you to show us, is the subjective evidence reflected in your personal Christian Indoctrination and the change in your behavior. While I agree that the Bible says that this is the evidence of a Christian. The Bible and Jesus himself also said there should be more evidence. There should be objective evidence. The Bible gives many examples of things we should be able to verify and we weren't able to. It gives many examples of things Christians should be capable of but they aren't capable of.

Listen, all three points: subjective evidence, objective evidence and pure faith, should be accepted and considered and analysed. Tell me the name of that stupid person who insists that one of these things is not necessary to have a full picture, and put a ban on such man. All the three are necessary in faith. For a court only the first two are considered I think. But they also equally have subjective and objective evidences, they may differ from each other, but they are accepted. They take witnesses, together with a knife that s found on a place of the crime. If they have a witness the file his testimony also, but if the have not a witness, they do not file it. It is simple. Do the same here. But you take into consideration one more thing also. If we believe that God over his creation, it means that we will have things that we will not be able to explain it ever. We will fail to explain it, but we can only accept it by faith if it comes from God. 

 

On 1/28/2023 at 6:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

The Bible fails at every turn to prove itself true. The biblical God is powerless to prove his own existence.

The Bible never intended to prove it is true, the Bible tells us the truth for our sake, for us to be saved. If you want you believe, if not, you bear you burden, who cares. 

 

The biblical God does not want to prove you his existence. He wants to save you my friend and my lost brother. Father knows that you know his place, wherever you want you can come to him. He does not want to prove you his existence, but he wants to prove you magnificence of his love to you, and his power in your life. 

 

May God bless you. 

[aik]

On 3/6/2023 at 11:42 AM, walterpthefirst said:

Posted 22 hours ago

In this period i found out about a new telescope james webb which has been shocking the atheists with its new discoveries. The telescope shows that the scientific knowledge concerning universal things, origins and astronomic calculations are merely relative but in most very hypothetic. So that even the scientists when they speak for sure they cannot know it crrtainly. 

 

 

If you have no problem with science and you do understand how it works, why did you write this, aik?

 

What was the point you were trying to make?

 

Please explain.

https://www.science.org/content/article/simple-explanation-mysterious-space-stretching-dark-energy

[aik]

5 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

I'm sorry aik but this link does not explain the point you were trying to make.

 

To know that you will have to describe to me your thinking, not someone else's.

 

Please try again.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

Later then Walt. I am sorry. You asked to give you the link about relativeness of fundamental laws of physics. Maybe the post i replied to was wrong.

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, aik said:

Later then Walt. I am sorry. You asked to give you the link about relativeness of fundamental laws of physics. Maybe the post i replied to was wrong.

 

That's ok aik.

 

 

But now that you mention the relativeness of the fundamental laws of physics, I can ask you about that?

 

1.   Why do you think that the fundamental laws of physics are relative and not absolute?

 

2.   Do you think that they should be absolute and not relative?

 

3.  And if so, why?

 

 

Thank you, 

 

Walter.

[aik]

6 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

That's ok aik.

 

 

But now that you mention the relativeness of the fundamental laws of physics, I can ask you about that?

 

1.   Why do you think that the fundamental laws of physics are relative and not absolute?

 

2.   Do you think that they should be absolute and not relative?

 

3.  And if so, why?

 

 

Thank you, 

 

Walter.

First of all I want to point that i do not give a credit to physical laws in matters of faith or spirituality. 

 

I want to show you that your relying on scientific bases, trying to find explanations or scientific evidences about the Biblical statements will move your foundaition. 

 

More simple, if fundamental physical laws can be put under doubts and if a scientist can allow that the fundamental law is wrong, it tells us that it merely cannot be absolute. Here you will say that you never claimed it to be absolute. But i ask then, why do you try to discount God using a relative knowledge? Is that possible? Or is it correct to do so?

 

1. I showed you not my thoughts but a scientific article. Earlier i thought that a fundamental law can never be changed or cancelled. Recently i started to think that if the human knowledge is limited than the laws we have revealed can also be not accurate. It means that what we consider fundamental, based upon a new discovery can be discredited. 

 

2. I did think that fundamental laws were the laws that never changed. But now i have come to a point that they are also conditional.

 

3. Because our human knowledge is limited. For example i showed you a link. People made a new telescope which showed that the universe is spread with much more acceleration than it was thought before. It makes some scientists to doubt if the energy conservation law is correct. Or another one. The telescope showed that there are three types of galaxies. And those which were thought to be young on the bases of some calculations look like those which seemed to be old. And if they put the same calculation bases to recalculate the age of the galaxies they will have more than 14 bln years. It contradicts to a modern SCIENTIFIC ideology which is taught in schools today. They have to admit that they were stupid speaking stupid things. 

 

But reality is not that the universe is older than 14 bln years. I believe they will say so very soon. Reality is that God created the universe in the way he wished, God uses his power to do new things, new galaxies, spreading heavens and so on. And if scientists take into account Gods miraculous actions, they will stop being surprised. 

 

Best regards.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, aik said:

First of all I want to point that i do not give a credit to physical laws in matters of faith or spirituality. 

 

I want to show you that your relying on scientific bases, trying to find explanations or scientific evidences about the Biblical statements will move your foundaition. 

 

More simple, if fundamental physical laws can be put under doubts and if a scientist can allow that the fundamental law is wrong, it tells us that it merely cannot be absolute. Here you will say that you never claimed it to be absolute. But i ask then, why do you try to discount God using a relative knowledge? Is that possible? Or is it correct to do so?

 

1. I showed you not my thoughts but a scientific article. Earlier i thought that a fundamental law can never be changed or cancelled. Recently i started to think that if the human knowledge is limited than the laws we have revealed can also be not accurate. It means that what we consider fundamental, based upon a new discovery can be discredited. 

 

2. I did think that fundamental laws were the laws that never changed. But now i have come to a point that they are also conditional.

 

3. Because our human knowledge is limited. For example i showed you a link. People made a new telescope which showed that the universe is spread with much more acceleration than it was thought before. It makes some scientists to doubt if the energy conservation law is correct. Or another one. The telescope showed that there are three types of galaxies. And those which were thought to be young on the bases of some calculations look like those which seemed to be old. And if they put the same calculation bases to recalculate the age of the galaxies they will have more than 14 bln years. It contradicts to a modern SCIENTIFIC ideology which is taught in schools today. They have to admit that they were stupid speaking stupid things. 

 

But reality is not that the universe is older than 14 bln years. I believe they will say so very soon. Reality is that God created the universe in the way he wished, God uses his power to do new things, new galaxies, spreading heavens and so on. And if scientists take into account Gods miraculous actions, they will stop being surprised. 

 

Best regards.

 

You seem to have arrived at a correct understanding of how science works, aik.

 

 

1.  Science has nothing to say about matters of faith and spirituality.

 

2.

Science never promises to deliver absolute knowledge about anything.  If it could give absolute knowledge then new knowledge could never overturn old knowledge.  Fundamental physical laws could never be overturned or changed by new knowledge. Science would never change and never could be changed by any new knowledge.

 

3.

But scientists have always tried to make better and better instruments; more powerful telescopes, microscopes, particle accelerators, computers, etc.  And these new instruments have given them new knowledge which has overturned and changed their old knowledge.  That is the way science works.  New knowledge always succeeds and supplants old knowledge.

 

 

So, when you wrote this on March 4...

 

In this period i found out about a new telescope James Webb which has been shocking the atheists with its new discoveries. The telescope shows that the scientific knowledge concerning universal things, origins and astronomic calculations are merely relative but in most very hypothetic. So that even the scientists when they speak for sure they cannot know it certainly. 

 

...you were actually confirming that scientists using this telescope were doing exactly what they should do. 

 

They were using a new and better instrument to gain new knowledge and new discoveries.  Their old knowledge was never certain because all scientific knowledge is tentative, provisional and open to being changed by new knowledge.  And their new knowledge and discoveries will some day be changed and overturned by even better instruments. 

 

That is how science works.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

[aik]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

You seem to have arrived at a correct understanding of how science works, aik.

 

 

1.  Science has nothing to say about matters of faith and spirituality.

 

2.

Science never promises to deliver absolute knowledge about anything.  If it could give absolute knowledge then new knowledge could never overturn old knowledge.  Fundamental physical laws could never be overturned or changed by new knowledge. Science would never change and never could be changed by any new knowledge.

 

3.

But scientists have always tried to make better and better instruments; more powerful telescopes, microscopes, particle accelerators, computers, etc.  And these new instruments have given them new knowledge which has overturned and changed their old knowledge.  That is the way science works.  New knowledge always succeeds and supplants old knowledge.

 

 

So, when you wrote this on March 4...

 

In this period i found out about a new telescope James Webb which has been shocking the atheists with its new discoveries. The telescope shows that the scientific knowledge concerning universal things, origins and astronomic calculations are merely relative but in most very hypothetic. So that even the scientists when they speak for sure they cannot know it certainly. 

 

...you were actually confirming that scientists using this telescope were doing exactly what they should do. 

 

They were using a new and better instrument to gain new knowledge and new discoveries.  Their old knowledge was never certain because all scientific knowledge is tentative, provisional and open to being changed by new knowledge.  And their new knowledge and discoveries will some day be changed and overturned by even better instruments. 

 

That is how science works.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

Ok. Then i have also one question to you. 

 

Can a smart man catch a wind by his hand? 

 

If the science is so weak comparing with God,s power, so it is not smart to cling to the science to prove gods abcense. It sounds like if i cannot catch a wind by my hands i will say that there is no wind, only your emotions and fantasies. Does it make sence my friend?

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, aik said:

Ok. Then i have also one question to you. 

 

Can a smart man catch a wind by his hand? 

 

If the science is so weak comparing with God,s power, so it is not smart to cling to the science to prove gods abcense. It sounds like if i cannot catch a wind by my hands i will say that there is no wind, only your emotions and fantasies. Does it make sence my friend?

 

 

 

No, I'm sorry aik, but that doesn't make much sense to me.

 

 

That's because science's power is so strong that you use it, rely on it and can't live without it everyday.  As do I.  As does almost all the world's population.  And if it we all use science, rely on it and can't live without it, then it can't really be weak, can it?

 

I see that you still don't understand that the purpose of science is not to prove things.  You've just realized that everything in science is tentative, provisional and open to be changed, right?   So, there can't be any proofs in science, can there?  If something were proved in science then that result could not be changed or overturned by new data and new knowledge.  That result would stand, unchanged and unchangeable forever.  Something that is proven is 100% certain.

 

But now you know that science must always change as new knowledge overtakes old knowledge.  If that's so then nothing in science can stay proven and unchangeable.  Everything in science is less than 100% certain.  So you really must stop believing that science is used to prove god's absence aik.  That simply isn't true.  Science doesn't prove anything.

 

Oh and if you don't believe that you use science, rely on it and can't live without it every day, then please describe your typical workday to me, starting from when you wake up and finishing when you go to bed.  Everything that you tell me about your day will have been made possible by science.  And if you can't see how a particular activity owes anything to science then I will be happy to explain to you how it does.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

Hello my dear friend @DarkBishop 

 

I have time to reply to your book. LOL. I divided in into parts in my mind. 

 

Thank you for the reply. I will hopefully have time tomorrow to make another reply. I don't feel that you understand the full scope of how much doesn't align with the biblical account. I could understand your argument if it were as simple as just one or two stories that they couldn't find proof for. But it is pretty much the whole first two books of the Bible and everything contained in them that can't be proven or doesn't reflect our universes cosmology. 

 

But I'll reply in more detail tomorrow when I have more time. Your reply was lengthy and thought out. I would like mine to be as well. 

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

On 3/19/2023 at 12:58 PM, walterpthefirst said:

 

  If it is not falsifiable by evidence, then that's not good enough for me.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

Have watched several ex-Christians over the years Walter basically sell out to science.....in that, they are totally anti-faith given the bad experience.  Just an observation how if we are approaching "truth" from the science side, humans will only take steps forward upon acceptable certainty to move forward.... hence, safe from faith and trust.  Until of course, something like one of our own tools, the JWT specifically, moves us to a potential understanding we didn't expect.... but dammit, it's our tool, so we have to tentatively move forward in trust.  Lol, just thought this humorous.  Carry on.

 

Please don't speak of the remit of science....got it already, thx.

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Have watched several ex-Christians over the years Walter basically sell out to science.....in that, they are totally anti-faith given the bad experience.  Just an observation how if we are approaching "truth" from the science side, humans will only take steps forward upon acceptable certainty to move forward.... hence, safe from faith and trust.  Until of course, something like one of our own tools, the JWT specifically, moves us to a potential understanding we didn't expect.... but dammit, it's our tool, so we have to tentatively move forward in trust.  Lol, just thought this humorous.  Carry on.

 

Please don't speak of the remit of science....got it already, thx.

 

Edgarcito,

 

I have faith in my wife, my family and my friends.  I have faith in other things too.  But this faith is based upon evidence - not upon an absence of evidence.  Based upon the evidence of 24 years of marriage I have faith that Audrey loves me.  But I would not be justified in believing that she loved me on the basis of a book written about her.  Nor would I be justified in believing that she loved me if the book about her was written thousands of years ago.

 

And if this is the definition of faith that you are using, then Yes, I am very much anti that kind of evidence-free faith.

 

Even though faith is used in both cases, do you see the very great differences between them?

 

Audrey is a living, breathing person with whom I have an ongoing and evolving relationship.  But a person described in the pages of a book can never be that.  She returns and reciprocates my love and my feelings in ways that no character from a collection of Middle Eastern supernatural stories ever can.  I have all the evidence I need from how she behaves towards me to know that she loves me.  And it is on the basis of those experiences that I have faith and trust in her future love for me.

 

So, if we compare our evidence bases, what do you bring to the table?  The words of an ancient book that are deeply contradictory, which aren't supported by history and which are at odds with the evidence?  A character in a book that cannot interact with you like a living person?  Some warm feelings that you attribute to that character interacting with you?  

 

If that is the definition, measure and full extent of your faith, then again, Yes, I am very much anti that kind faith.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Have watched several ex-Christians over the years Walter basically sell out to science.....in that, they are totally anti-faith given the bad experience.  Just an observation how if we are approaching "truth" from the science side, humans will only take steps forward upon acceptable certainty to move forward.... hence, safe from faith and trust.  Until of course, something like one of our own tools, the JWT specifically, moves us to a potential understanding we didn't expect.... but dammit, it's our tool, so we have to tentatively move forward in trust.  Lol, just thought this humorous.  Carry on.

 

Please don't speak of the remit of science....got it already, thx.

 

Yes, we have to move tentatively forward, trusting IN THE EVIDENCE that the JWST has supplied.

 

Oh and btw Ed, I haven't sold out to science.

 

I've sold out to evidence.

 

Which is why evidence-free religious faith has no place in my life.

 

People who base their lives on evidence are realists.

 

People who base their lives on an absence of evidence are not realists.

 

I am a realist.

[walterpthefirst]

11 hours ago, Weezer said:

I'm not sure I can answer that question.  Can you explain what you mean by being "equally severe on ourselves and our own beliefs".   Are you taking all this more serious than is needed??

 

I don't know how you define critical, but I never saw you as being extremely critical.  Very persistent, but not severely critical.  And none of us are perfect, and all of us have better hindsight than foresight.   The question I have is, does the criticism (to whatever extent) accomplish what we want to accomplish?  Or is it simply our egos blowing off steam, whether dealing with each other or christians.  Would simply making our points by stating our evidence and beliefs suffice??  And what image are we creating for the whole website by our posts?

.

And while we are at it, I want to apologize for getting "off track" at times.   

 

Ok Weezer, I'll try and explain.

 

 

For me the bottom line is taking a consistent line at all times.  That's what I mean by being equally severe on ourselves and our own beliefs as we have been with others and their beliefs.  For instance, if I point out to a Christian apologist that they are committing the logical fallacy of special pleading, then I must be careful that I do not commit the same error when outlining my beliefs.

 

If I do that then I am not being consistent - I am being biased.  I'm being critical of their beliefs by not exercising the same degree of critical thinking about my beliefs.  So, not only am I doing myself a disservice, I'm also doing this forum a disservice.  If that Christian sees that I'm committing exactly the same kind of error as they are then they can quite rightly accuse me of operating a double standard.  And they can also claim that they are not getting a fair hearing in this forum, because its members (specifically me) are biased and inconsistent.

 

This is where I tend to disagree with what mideniterider said.  Christians aren't the enemy in this forum.  Sloppy thinking, illogic and emotionalism are the enemies of rationality and reason.  In my opinion we Ex-Christians, atheists, agnostics and sceptics should make our stand on rationality and reason.  That way there is no 'Them vs Us'.  If the Christians are hopelessly prone to sloppy thinking, illogic and emotionalism, then its our job to show them the error of their ways by using coherent thinking and logic and by being dispassionate about what we believe.

 

Therefore, I feel the need to test and challenge what I believe to the same degree of severity that I test and challenge the beliefs of the Christians in this forum.

 

 

Does that help?

 

 

Walter.

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

Look what we have here. 

 

He who believes in Buddhism, he will be at most like Buddha, in Krishnaism - like Krishna, in Koran - like Muhammad, in Jesus - like Jesus. 

I think you missed my point. All of these people have good values and morals based on their religious convictions. Except in cases such as Islamic extremists. 

 

But that goes with any faith. We have had many "Cults" mixed in the Christian faith that used the same Bible you use to do that which is considered evil. 

 

That is one thing I learned during my Christian walk. People can take the bible and use scripture to do or say anything. There are 30,000 Christian denominations. Many of them teaching very different views from one another but all getting their authority from the same book. If nothing else, this in and of itself proves that the Bible is fallible. Each denomination will attest that they have the "right" interpretation. And many of these beliefs are important for salvation. Take baptism for instance. Many Christians believe in sprinkling with water instead of full immersion. One has to be wrong. The Bible depicts baptism as necessary for salvation. Which is another issue. Some believe that it is necessary and some believe it is not.

 

This is a very critical point and any true God that wasn't willing that any should perish should be able to set the record straight so that his people were performing their faith correctly. 

 

That is just one issue. There are many many more differences between the churches. And Many of these differences are huge. All from the same Bible. Christians don't even know what they believe. So why should anyone else believe what they are teaching? You will say this, another will say that, but which is "right". It boggles my mind that a supposed all powerful God, all knowing God, and all loving God couldnt even keep his church on the same page on all these various and extremely important issues. The most logical conclusion is that the Christian God doesn't exist and it was people that interpreted the bible in whatever way their values and biases aligned.

 

As far as Muhammed, did he have sex with many women, or did he have many wives to have sex with? Because even the new testament wasn't against multiple wives really. It was accepted at the time. What it does say is that the pastor of a church should be the husband of one wife. Pastors weren't supposed to have multiple wives. So we can leave that issue up for debate. Again. It makes sense when you think about it. It wouldn't have been acceptable for the church to ask a man who just converted to Christianity having multiple wives to divorce all of them but one. It was a very different time back then. Me personally I can't keep one wife. I wouldn't want to try and deal with more than one

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

By faith in what the had read

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

How do you know it?

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

Archeology is weak

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

We cannot discover everything we had in ancient times. We sometimes are not even able to learn what we had the day before in our home until someone tells us. Even criminal experts are not always able to expose what a criminal had done a month ago, having instruments, education, groups of experts, witnesses and so on. Investigation can fail sometimes. Do not pay attention so much to such things, Bishop. Just accept that we as a human are not perfect to know everything, even if we four-fold graduated from the best universities of the world. 

 

Yes you believe it solely because it is written in a book which you have been told was the written word of God. The problem again, as I mentioned in my short reply to this a few days ago is that there is so much that should be there but isn't. And I have to disagree with you about archeology. It isn't weak at all. For instance I'm sure if we were discussing any other ancient civilization and the various discoveries about them you would probably have no problem believing the assessment of archeologists pertaining to all those civilizations. 

 

Such as the native American tribes here in the America's. Through archeology we have been able to peace together their way of life, the types of food they ate, how they hunted, etc. Etc. I doubt you would question those findings. And those findings stretch back thousands or tens of thousands of years. 

 

However, much like most Christians. If archeological finds do not coincide with the Bible then you wont accept that the Bible may be wrong. So I have to disagree with your assessment that we can't find these things because of how ancient the stories are. The Bible gives very specific locations where the isrealites were when they were in the desert for 40 years and while supposedly conquering Canaan. While I will agree that there may be "some" truths to stories like exodus. Those stories have been greatly over exaggerated. 

 

Let's look at the last plague in Egypt. Where God kills all the first born in Egypt. Egyptians recorded their history in Hieroglyphics. If that had actually happened there would be a record of it in Egypt. Egypt at the time was an empire. While the people in the city where the isrealites were would have known the claims of Moses and what was going on. The rest of the empire would not have known. They didn't have CNN to watch the daily news back then. News traveled very slowly. So all these other city's in Egypt should have Hieroglyphics indicating that all the first born mysteriously died in different places all over the empire. But those stories aren't there. 

 

Again the most logical conclusion is that the story of Moses and his Exodus just didn't actually happen. And if it did it was on a much smaller scale and there were no plagues. Maybe a small group of isrealite slaves escaped and made their way back to Canaan and one of those guys happened to be named Moses. But there is no evidence that millions of people along with cattle and a tabernacle to worship in moved all over the desert for 40 years or that that many people escaped Egypt at one time. 

 

Your in what I like to call a Christian Blind spot. You will believe the evidence as long as it doesn't go against what is written in your Bible. If it does, the blinders drop and you literally will not see reality in any other way than that which is written. Even if everything else points to the opposite conclusion. 

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

There is another mountain of verifiable evidence that the flood of Noah did happen.

 

There is only evidence of large localized flooding. Not a global flood. I will agree that in the various flood myths like that of Noah or the Epic of Gilgamesh are based on some truth.. There are grounds to believe that large floods and costal flooding due to melted glacial lakes pouring into the ocean are there. and maybe some guy named Noah saved some people and their animals with his boat. But the story of the Flood and the ark are probably just the end result of thousands of years of retelling the story until it became the legend it is in the bible. You have to realize that all these stories were passed down by word of mouth for millenia before the were ever written down. And some, like the tower of babel we discussed before, were just stories they told their children to answer the various questions all children have. Like, "why do people speak different languages?" 

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

Did you pay attention that in Genesis it is never spoken about such mounts like Everest and others. We cannot say how high were the highest hills in that time. Maybe Ararat was not 5 km high, and it is not necessarily the very top of contemporary peak of Ararat, which is Masis mount. But somebody found there evidences of Noah's boat. There are videos on it, i watched once. But actually i do not pay much attention to such things, I mean i do not construct my faith on scientific issues. 

Your really stretching here Aik. I thought we could all agree that at the very least the mountains were pretty much where they are at now 7,000 years ago. I'm not going to entertain any ridiculous notions against the concrete proof of plate tectonics or volcanic activity that we know created the mountains on earth. Most of all of that happened many millions of years ago. 

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

It means...it means that everyone who says that Moses never existed is a Liar!

This is a perfect example of Christian blinders. "If they say he didn't exist they are all Liars!!" Why? Why are they liars? Maybe the bible is what is truly full of lies, half truths, and unverifiable legends. Thats what I believe because that is what the evidence suggests. 

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

which a bubble gum you chewed one year ago had been wrapped? Many artefacts are lost in history. I think, generally speaking,  if we had kept all the artefacts of what really happened in history, then we had another picture of the history today

I can honestly say that I would agree with your point here if it were only Abraham. Or a few instances and events here or there in the bible that they couldn't find proof for. But it isn't just Abraham. It is pretty much the whole first two books of the Bible from Gods creation to Exodus that most all the stories can not be verified through the various sciences and archeology. If it were only two or three things that they couldn't verify I would probably still be Christian. 

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

Look. Let us make it clear. I never said that my mother was recovered from a cancer. What I really said was that my mother was healed by Jesus from her disease which doctors were unable to do, and in another post I spoke about healing from the 4th degree cancer, meaning one of my sisters in Christ, here where I live.

 

Well that makes it a lot less "miraculous". 

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

Please explain what do you mean saying "Reflected what Jesus prophesied would happen after him". I could not understand it. 

No problem,

 

I mentioned in my post that Jesus said in the bible that those coming after him would do greater things than he did. According to Jesus's own words Christians today should be able to openly and very publicly heal people, just like he supposedly did. They should be able to pray and calm raging storms just like he did, they should be able to even walk on water just like he did. Jesus said his followers would be able to do what he did and MORE. But that did not happen outside of what is written into the bible. There are no reports, as far as I know, in recorded history outside of the Bible about the Christians uncanny ability in ancient times to heal the sick, lame, and blind. It is only found in the bible. I might be wrong. But I don't think I am. 

 

Even so, today in our current times, Christians are unable to do these and those that do aim it are usually found out to be frauds and have hired actors. 

 

Considering the bibles own criteria for discovering whether someone is a false prophet or not, I would have to say that this prophecy which Jesus said was false. That would technically make Jesus a false prophet. Basically we are pretty much still waiting on everything Jesus said would happen to actually happen. Even to the point that Christians have been saying his second coming is going to happen very soon...... for 2,000 years. Christians in the bible thought it would be soon back then and were seeing "the signs" back then. And Christians today are saying much the same type of thing. They just keep kicking that can down the road and telling their followers to remain faithful. Soon, soon he's going to come back. How many more thousands of years can mankind keep believing that? Honestly? Between then and now this world has been in much worse shape. It would have made more sense for Jesus to have returned during the dark ages or something. Or back when Nero was persecuting and killing any Christian he could get his hands on. I mean after all. Revelations was written about Nero and the author believed Nero was the beast that Christ would conquer at his second coming. But again...... that didn't happen did it? Revelations, just another failed prophecy.

 

We can say now that at the very least his message has been preached in every nation to some degree. That is one prophecy that has come true. Only because the faithful strove to do so. But still,, it happened. So what is left to happen? Nothing really. Except him actually making his long awaited return. 

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

Maybe, some christians never fast for their children. They confess that they do not pray for their children. But actually a christian parent has to pray for his children otherwise he does not know what to be a parent means. We have rare stories where a christian child gets into a big trouble, then it becomes known that the parent of that child had not cared about him. It is not necessarily that every child who is in the trouble has such parents. But I am saying that we have to investigate a certain situation to know what actually happened and why. You cannot say for 100% that parents of that child from your story were praying for their kids. But I also together with you believe that if we have a christian family then christian parents must pray for their children. It is a normal christian reality. I am happy that you also think so.

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

Sometimes God punishes his children to save them from sin or evil. Hebrews chapter 12 speaks about a father punishing his kid. And God can do it as a Father, but it is an act of love. Why? because the father tries to deliver his child from evil. We should not judge those to whom God can apply such punishment, because I am not better than they, but we have to understand that love does not mean only giving food to a child, sometimes it means forbid food from the child, because the food will kill him (for example right after an operation of an appendix). 

 I don't know if you understand the full context of what I was saying. There are millions of children every year that are abducted and sold around the world for sex slavery. Millions!! Out of all those millions I have to believe that there would be some children with parents that truly believed and were faithful. Out of millions of parents i would think that some would have even fasted and prayed for their child's safe return or even the end of the child sex slavery industry. And in these instances there is no logical reason for a God as depicted in the bible not to intervene on behalf of his followers. There is also no way that God could be glorified for letting child sex slavery continue. I hope you would not try to justify Gods inaction on that matter. There is really no excuse, if God truly is what the Bible says he is that he would reach down his mighty hand and do something about it. 

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

Jesus did not make a miracle to teach us how to solve the problem of starvation in the world. Aim of a miracle is to bring people to faith. And locally we have testimonies about such miracles. But it does not mean that we should go and feed everyone with a miraculous bread. 

It does if Jesus said you would. And he did. He said you would be able to do everything he did and more. And your right. I agree that the miracles would be for leading people to the faith. That is exactly what Jesus was using them for. To show them the power of God. And again. Jesus said his followers would be able to do all he had done and more. So yes Aik, I believe that if the bible and Jesus are correct that you and all truly faithful Christians should be able to show us God's power in exactly the same ways as Jesus did if not in greater ways. Could you imagine how many people would believe in Jesus if Christians were actually able to do all the miraculous things Jesus and the Bible says they would be able to do? Jesus didn't say you wouldn't have proof to show us of his power. He said you would be able to do miracles yourself. And show us his power.

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

We will fail to explain it, but we can only accept it by faith if it comes from God. 

 

And this is usually the catch all phrase when the questions get to be to numerous or to hard to answer. "Just have faith" 

 

That, my friend, is weak.

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

Here I want to stop a while for your sake. My dear friend, very appreciated and beloved by God.

Thank you for your attempts to reconvert me. I know it comes from a place of good hearted concern for my soul. But I am unable to believe in the biblical God just as I could not truly believe that Santa Claus visits all the children in the world on Christmas eve and gives them presents. I know in my heart that it is only myth and legend. And nothing more. But it has influenced humanity for thousands of years and has been instrumental in our history. So I still find it all very interesting and I still want to keep learning the historical truths that are there about the bible. So I can better understand the faith that shaped my life for so long. 

 

But I will never believe again unless I see some tangible objective evidence like what we've been discussing here. Something that no one on earth could deny. 

 

On 3/18/2023 at 1:10 AM, aik said:

The Bible never intended to prove it is true, the Bible tells us the truth for our sake, for us to be saved. If you want you believe, if not, you bear you burden, who cares. 

 

The biblical God does not want to prove you his existence. He wants to save you my friend and my lost brother. Father knows that you know his place, wherever you want you can come to him. He does not want to prove you his existence, but he wants to prove you magnificence of his love to you, and his power in your life. 

 

My bad, I guess I just expect more out of a supposed all powerful, all loving, ever present, and all knowing God. I guess I shouldnt expect any more out of the Bible God than I do Zeus or Odin. They all seem to do about the same thing in this world........ NOTHING. 

 

Best Regards,

 

Dark Bishop

[TABA]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

@walterpthefirst and @Joshpantera yall have kinda hijacked this thread toward a debate on universal consciousness. Reckon yall could start another thread just for that?

 

The thread has indeed wandered away from its original debate between an Ex-Christian and a Christian.  

Recent messages focusing on the nature of consciousness, idealism and materialism are being moved to a new thread.  
 

 

 

[aik]

Hello @DarkBishop 

 

Could you tell us please, what is your occupation? Expertize i mean?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 minutes ago, aik said:

Hello @DarkBishop 

 

Could you tell us please, what is your occupation? Expertize i mean?

Hey Aik,

 

Good to see you again.

 

I am a mechatronics technician in industrial maintenance. Been in the field for about 20 years. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 hours ago, aik said:

Hello @DarkBishop 

 

Could you tell us please, what is your occupation? Expertize i mean?

Why do you ask @aik? I said as much in the post I mentioned you on in another thread. 

 

DB