Going back to church for Christmas

[RankStranger]

Howdy folks.  If this topic is inappropriate here, please move it elsewhere.

 

So... this is a bit awkward, but I'd like to get peoples' thoughts on my upcoming project.  I'm gonna go to church again... back to that old fundamentalist church in Appalachia where I grew up.  I'll be there for Christmas.

 

I'm not looking to re-join the church, "get saved", or anything like that.  I know too much about the bible and its history to ever believe the way I was taught as a kid.  I've dealt with too much Christian Bullshit in my life to really ever take it seriously in any literal sense.  I'm not looking to change their minds, to prove anything, or to find me some Jesus.  I just want to show up with my elderly parents, visit some folks and let them know I'm not dead yet.  I want to witness and/or participate in my old tribe's dysfunctional rain-dance, as honestly and respectfully as I can... while at the same time not believing in the literal truth of most of it.  It's a tough line to walk.

 

Two years ago I would've thought this impossible... but things/people change.  When I left at age 18, I intended to never darken their door again, and I didn't for 26 years (I visited in the Fall of last year).  But these days I guess I feel like I've made my point.  They have no power over me, and frankly most of them are good people (if IMO misguided).

 

Have any of you all visited your old church this way?  As a good-will gesture, even if you can no longer subscribe to their world-view (or maybe never did)?  How did it go?

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

@RankStranger

 

Hey bro, sounds like you have a full deconversion and if your good with it.... why not? Several of the past instances that I've gone to church was to enjoy being at church with my mom and dad. I just wanted to make them happy really. We only have a small window in this life to enjoy being with our parents. 

 

DB

 

 

[TABA]

Hi @RankStranger,

 

There’s no one right way to be an ex-christian, with regard to church attendance or anything else.  For some, attending church is the last thing they’d want to do, or should do.  Maybe they’d find it too distressing, or maybe it’s just a matter of principle.  Some start out with a strong aversion or even hostility to christianity and maybe they mellow over time.  For others it might be the opposite.  
 

So if you’re inclined to go, I don’t see why you shouldn’t.  One of the benefits of deconversion is gaining freedom of thought.  Nobody can tell you that you should - or shouldn’t - attend a church service, and you can reveal your non-belief, or not, as you wish.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I hear ya, man.  If my grandma was still alive, I'd probably go with her to the old Lutheran church for Christmas; and she'd likely say that was the best gift I could give her.  For me, that would be the real reason to go, just to see her smile and be proud for a bit.  There are far worse reasons to go to church, like to worship jesus, for example.  But, I think, if the motivation is to do right by others in some small way, well, isn't that what the church is for?

 

There's no shame in exploring the spiritual aspects of life.  Without getting into the specifics, I'd go so far as to admit that opening myself up to spirituality literally saved my neck back in 2019; but if you'd suggested it to me just a year earlier, in 2018, I'd have invited you to pleasure yourself anally with a flush-cut saw.  Things just look different once you start looking at them differently.  

 

Go on over to the church.  Do your folks proud.

[Shinzon]

I will once in a blue moon attend a church service part out of nostalgia and part curiousity(as far as how other people do stuff).   I think its a good way to understand your neighbors a little better.

 

Admittedly I have been attended a unitarian universalism church since August and absolutely adore the place.   I highly recommend it, if you can find one that doesn't get overly political which some do.

[pantheory]

5 hours ago, RankStranger said:

Howdy folks.  If this topic is inappropriate here, please move it elsewhere.

 

So... this is a bit awkward, but I'd like to get peoples' thoughts on my upcoming project.  I'm gonna go to church again... back to that old fundamentalist church in Appalachia where I grew up.  I'll be there for Christmas.

 

I'm not looking to re-join the church, "get saved", or anything like that.  I know too much about the bible and its history to ever believe the way I was taught as a kid.  I've dealt with too much Christian Bullshit in my life to really ever take it seriously in any literal sense.  I'm not looking to change their minds, to prove anything, or to find me some Jesus.  I just want to show up with my elderly parents, visit some folks and let them know I'm not dead yet.  I want to witness and/or participate in my old tribe's dysfunctional rain-dance, as honestly and respectfully as I can... while at the same time not believing in the literal truth of most of it.  It's a tough line to walk.

 

Two years ago I would've thought this impossible... but things/people change.  When I left at age 18, I intended to never darken their door again, and I didn't for 26 years (I visited in the Fall of last year).  But these days I guess I feel like I've made my point.  They have no power over me, and frankly most of them are good people (if IMO misguided).

 

Have any of you all visited your old church this way?  As a good-will gesture, even if you can no longer subscribe to their world-view (or maybe never did)?  How did it go?

 

 

I see nothing wrong with your going to church. I go to church several times a year when invited by family and friends.  As for me, church will always be Greek Mythology, simply pure BS, but I don't mind going a few times a year if it makes others happy for whatever their reasons. Most of my family know that I'm a devout atheist, but they still invite me once in awhile. I don't believe my going hurts anyone since I won't talk about my disbelief to anyone other than my family, who definitely have stopped asking my beliefs long ago since all know my answer:  that all religions are laughable  BS -- that all Bibles are pure fiction with zero logical basis or objective evidence for any of it. 

[webmdave]

12 hours ago, RankStranger said:

Have any of you all visited your old church this way? 

 

Yes. I also listen to Christmas music and hymns on occasion. In my opinion, showing good will toward others is always a good idea. These days I do not choose to argue world views with well meaning people. If I am around religious people I try to just be friendly. There is more than enough pain, fear and anxiety in people's thought lives already. 

 

Just my opinion...

[nontheistpilgrim]

When I was caught up with fundagelicalism I was taught that I had to stay away from cinemas because. if seen. I would send out a message of approval to my 'weaker brother' who might thus be made to fall and sin. That attitude may still be somewhere in my mind. It's about evil by association, I think: the 'Jesus' story is 'evil' and I don't want to be seen to associate with it.

Admitedly I don't have much of a choice about going to church as my partner (who is a Christian) cannot be left for any length of time and cannot get out for long.

I'd sort of like to have the kind generous attitudes of folk here but I haven't, I'm much too intolerant.

I will not go to church at Christmas because I would feel hypocritical. I also really hate the Christmas story, based as it is on pagan myth.

However, I will put the zoom carol service on for my partner and keep my distance.

 

[RankStranger]

16 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

@RankStranger

 

Hey bro, sounds like you have a full deconversion and if your good with it.... why not? Several of the past instances that I've gone to church was to enjoy being at church with my mom and dad. I just wanted to make them happy really. We only have a small window in this life to enjoy being with our parents. 

 

DB

 

 

 

Yeah, that's a big part of it.  There's a good chance my parents won't be around much longer.  For them and for me, I think I need to come to some kind of peace with the church.  

 

Until the past couple of years I was on board with the "full deconversion".  But these days I see it differently.  I pray pretty regularly, but with no particular expectation that anybody is listening.  It's more like a meditation/practice, or ritualistically setting an intent.  These days I'd generally say that I'm agnostic... but my longer-term ambition is to grow into a proper Heretic 

 

I don't believe in Santa Claus in any literal sense, and don't see that changing.  But sometimes I imagine and/or hope for Santa Claus.   During some of my deeper prayers/meditations I've seen, felt, and spoken with Santa Claus.  None of this makes Santa real in any literal sense... but I know where to find 'him'.

 

Like many here, I was raised as a Christian from the day I was born.  Whatever I've learned since, it's the BIOS that my brain runs on... I don't really have any say in that.  I think that's why so many Atheists and ExChristians are far better 'christians' than our self-proclaimed "Christians" are.  No offense intended, except toward shitty self-righteous "Christians".

 

 

[RankStranger]

10 hours ago, Shinzon said:

I will once in a blue moon attend a church service part out of nostalgia and part curiosity(as far as how other people do stuff).   I think its a good way to understand your neighbors a little better.

 

Admittedly I have been attended a unitarian universalism church since August and absolutely adore the place.   I highly recommend it, if you can find one that doesn't get overly political which some do.

 

I went to a UU church several times, over a decade ago.  Nice people, but not for me.  I have a real problem with the nasty right-wing politics that have infected so many churches/Christians.  But IMO, incorporating lefty politics into church/worship isn't a good answer to that problem.  I know UU churches vary a lot, so this probably doesn't apply to all of them.

 

I doubt I'll ever attend church regularly.  But those few times I've been, I've kinda enjoyed this Congregational church out in BFE Kansas.  They don't seem to care much about doctrine... they just focus on loving your neighbor and living by example.  Coming from a fear-based hell/punishment-worshiping Evangelical background, it's kinda refreshing.

[older]

I don't go here but some years back we were in York, England, and decided to check out the cathedral there in the manner for which it was built — by attending a service. I looked at it as just a theatrical show, and was it a good one! The costumes were great, the set design (completed in  1472, one of the largest in Northern Europe) and lighting (the largest expanse of medieval stained glass in the world) were terrific. The music, with pipe organ and boys choir, was awesome. Only one of the characters in the play had any dialog, which was boring but, fortunately, brief. If I lived there I'd go once in a while just for the free entertainment.

[pantheory]

19 hours ago, webmdave said:

 

Yes. I also listen to Christmas music and hymns on occasion. In my opinion, showing good will toward others is always a good idea. These days I do not choose to argue world views with well meaning people. If I am around religious people I try to just be friendly. There is more than enough pain, fear and anxiety in people's thought lives already. 

 

Just my opinion...

 

Yes, this has always been my opinion also. Unfortunately, IMO, not all would benefit from knowing the truth. For some, religion provides a lot of comfort in the belief in an afterlife.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Instead of church for us, we go to an xmas piano bar. It's the same piano bar we go to most every week, but this one had a Christmas theme. Most of the songs were winter/nostalgia related instead of religious. There was one "O Holy Night" sung by a legit gospel singer, which was nicely performed. Great warm friendly time and great singing. Next week is the carol sing-along, and there will likely be more Jesus songs in that one. Most of the actual believers in the crowd on non-fundy, since they wouldn't usually even be in a bar/restaurant. Catholics, Episcopalian, and some folks bordering on deconversion from a lifelong fundamentalist path. I choose to not sing religious songs anymore, including Christmas carols. And no mocking or changing lyrics in religious songs allowed, so all feel welcome (and they are welcome). 

 

The last time I was in church was for a wedding of a nephew, and it was like going to a temple of Zeus in terms of how odd it felt. The gathering was the typical pseudo-Pentecostal type that became popular as an amalgam of standard church and the trappings of Pentecostal exuberance. Meh. No feeling at all of "the spirit" like I've encountered in other places. Certainly no "conviction" over deconverting...

[RankStranger]

12 hours ago, older said:

I don't go here but some years back we were in York, England, and decided to check out the cathedral there in the manner for which it was built — by attending a service. I looked at it as just a theatrical show, and was it a good one! The costumes were great, the set design (completed in  1472, one of the largest in Northern Europe) and lighting (the largest expanse of medieval stained glass in the world) were terrific. The music, with pipe organ and boys choir, was awesome. Only one of the characters in the play had any dialog, which was boring but, fortunately, brief. If I lived there I'd go once in a while just for the free entertainment.

 

Yeah, I've been to a few Catholic weddings over the years and kinda saw it the same way.  IMO it's a lot easier to enjoy the ritual when you have no need to take it seriously 

[pantheory]

2 hours ago, Fuego said:

Instead of church for us, we go to an xmas piano bar. It's the same piano bar we go to most every week, but this one had a Christmas theme. Most of the songs were winter/nostalgia related instead of religious. There was one "O Holy Night" sung by a legit gospel singer, which was nicely performed. Great warm friendly time and great singing. Next week is the carol sing-along, and there will likely be more Jesus songs in that one. Most of the actual believers in the crowd on non-fundy, since they wouldn't usually even be in a bar/restaurant. Catholics, Episcopalian, and some folks bordering on deconversion from a lifelong fundamentalist path. I choose to not sing religious songs anymore, including Christmas carols. And no mocking or changing lyrics in religious songs allowed, so all feel welcome (and they are welcome). 

 

The last time I was in church was for a wedding of a nephew, and it was like going to a temple of Zeus in terms of how odd it felt. The gathering was the typical pseudo-Pentecostal type that became popular as an amalgam of standard church and the trappings of Pentecostal exuberance. Meh. No feeling at all of "the spirit" like I've encountered in other places. Certainly no "conviction" over deconverting...

 

I've always loved a piano bar. There are very few of them now in the US based upon my travels, so I would expect many or most young folk (20's and under) now consider them old fashioned like the music being played on them.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

8 hours ago, pantheory said:

I've always loved a piano bar. There are very few of them now in the US based upon my travels, so I would expect many or most young folk (20's and under) now consider them old fashioned like the music being played on them.

 

True, though we have some college aged folks joining us also. Our piano guy was the arranger and conductor of Liberace's orchestra for 12 years, worked with Streisand and Elvis, and can play just about anything from memory in whatever key you need. He makes it fun! Conversely, I just saw another show where the piano player was a jazz guy that wasn't familiar with accompanying average singers. It was awful. The singer kept looking at him like "What the hell tune are you playing?" He was giving no clue about the melody and really didn't want to but she was ready to smack him. 

 

[pantheory]

15 hours ago, Fuego said:

 

True, though we have some college aged folks joining us also. Our piano guy was the arranger and conductor of Liberace's orchestra for 12 years, worked with Streisand and Elvis, and can play just about anything from memory in whatever key you need. He makes it fun! Conversely, I just saw another show where the piano player was a jazz guy that wasn't familiar with accompanying average singers. It was awful. The singer kept looking at him like "What the hell tune are you playing?" He was giving no clue about the melody and really didn't want to but she was ready to smack him. 

 

 

That's great that some young people like and have learned the music of a piano bar.  I guess that every generation has a few that look back a generation or two to older music, or to classical music -- and to stay on topic, sing church music   I still like to sing church music maybe once a year, Christmas carols etc.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

11 hours ago, pantheory said:

That's great that some young people like and have learned the music of a piano bar.  I guess that every generation have a few that look back a generation or two to older music, or to classical music.

 

That includes me as well, though I'm approaching 59. I always thought of the Rat Pack era as "parent music" and ignored it for the most part. Then I started taking voice lessons and a classmate said "You HAVE to come down to Tony Starlight's!" Sounded vaguely like a gay bar when I first heard the name, but was a retro supperclub with a big band including horns where you could dress nicely and sing songs from that era on stage. I was hooked and began listening to Sinatra, Dino, and Sammy Davis Jr on endless loop. Eventually the owner moved on to his own showroom, but the mid-week piano bar kept going at another restaurant. It was a magical little place and my current circle of friends was created there. 

[pantheory]

2 hours ago, Fuego said:

 

That includes me as well, though I'm approaching 59. I always thought of the Rat Pack era as "parent music" and ignored it for the most part. Then I started taking voice lessons and a classmate said "You HAVE to come down to Tony Starlight's!" Sounded vaguely like a gay bar when I first heard the name, but was a retro supperclub with a big band including horns where you could dress nicely and sing songs from that era on stage. I was hooked and began listening to Sinatra, Dino, and Sammy Davis Jr on endless loop. Eventually the owner moved on to his own showroom, but the mid-week piano bar kept going at another restaurant. It was a magical little place and my current circle of friends was created there. 

Yeah, me too. I used to play ragtime music in the bars in the mid to late 1950's, maybe 2 generations before me. My uncle played the banjo and I played the bass. As a kid I listened to Rat Pack members and 40's music. As a teenager the first rock-n-roll music started in the mid 50's, but I always  loved piano bars also.  To stay on topic -- I also liked church music and songs, as well as singing them  

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 12/12/2022 at 3:25 PM, RankStranger said:

.

Have any of you all visited your old church this way?  As a good-will gesture, even if you can no longer subscribe to their world-view (or maybe never did)?  How did it go?

 

 

I live out of state now, and 2 years ago I was going back to take care of some business and decided to get a few old friends from church together for a visit.  It was a small church in a small town where my family had been founding members of the congregation years ago, and my Dad was an elder.  We met at a resturant and sat drinking coffee and having a great time while waiting on one of the people to get there who was runnng late.  The visit was going great for about 45 minutes when we started to eat.  One of them asked me to say the prayer and when I suggested someone else do it, they all kinda froze.  Another person said the prayer and the conversation took a different "drift".  A few minutes later one ask me where I was going to church now, and I simply said, "nowhere".  The conversation lagged, and a few minutes later one told a story about reprimanding her brother who had not been going to church regularly, obviously targeted at me.  I did not reply.  The conversation picked up, discussing old experiences, and our present families, etc.  Not one person asked anything about why I no longer was going to church.  The subject was dropped.  Months later there was some contact with 2 of them about a high school reunion that was coming up, and they were nice, but brief in the conversation.  

 

To my knowledge none of them knew I no longer believed.  If they had known, I'm not sure they would have "had time" to meet for lunch.   If I had just shown up for church, I likely would have been asked to say a prayer, which was common for ex-members who were visiting.  If they knew I was no longer a believer before the church service, I likely would have been "preached" to in some way, and recieved a cool reception from most.  I have tried to communicate with several old church friends over the years since leaving and have gotten a cool reception from most.  2 even told me in so many words that we really had nothing in common anymore.   And with several family members it is a similar situation.   It seems they don't even want to know why I left.

[older]

That's sad, Weezer. They can't even set aside their self righteousness for an old friend. 

[Moonobserver]

I live in a small community and see people from my former church fairly often. We're still on good terms for the most part and the subject of church rarely comes up.

 

I would feel awkward and uncomfortable going back and really have no desire to do so. It's taken a long time for me to get where I am.

[Henndigo]

I went back recently to support someone at a non-worship presentation.  It was OK and I did not feel triggered or anything.   I caught up with the latest news in their lives, such as new grandparents, engagement, who had Covid etc.  We didn’t discuss the fact I was no longer an attender.  
I felt grateful it was non-confrontational.  I did not feel any rush of wanting to go back.  I understand and accept religious relationships are highly conditional and I am glad I don’t have to worry about that anymore.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

14 hours ago, Moonobserver said:

 

I would feel awkward and uncomfortable going back and really have no desire to do so. It's taken a long time for me to get where I am.

 

 

Same here.  About a year before our lunch meeting I had recieved an invitation to attend a 50 year reunion of the church, but turned it down by simply saying I would not be able to attend.  In the 30 years since leaving church I have only been inside a church for 3 or 4 funerals.  Except my wife wanted to attend a church somewhere, so we attended a few services at a Unitarian Universalist congregation, where neither of us felt comfortable socially and stopped going anywhere..

[freshstart]

On 12/13/2022 at 5:13 AM, webmdave said:

If I am around religious people I try to just be friendly. There is more than enough pain, fear and anxiety in people's thought lives already. 

I think this is probably best practice and a true statement.

 

But every once in awhile it kind of pisses me off when I find myself feeling as though I must purposely and carefully navigate a conversation so as not to allow believers to know my point of view - in order to protect them from feeling uncomfortable and protect me from being shunned in some way or another.

Sometimes I wonder if those of us who are still only peeking out of the atheist closet shouldn't just step into the light of day. Maybe it would become more obvious to the world, the media, the politicians that there are far more us than we realize, perhaps even a silent majority.

I would also like to believe that if I shrug off a church invitation and it wounds the person who invited me, then that is not something I should own. But its difficult to not feel responsible for someone else's emotional reaction to my choices.