Going back to church for Christmas

[RankStranger]

3 hours ago, TABA said:

I agree it’s going to be a personal decision, but we all rejected Christianity for reasons.  As well as the realization that history, science and archaeology didn’t support the Bible as truth,  we had moral objections to the doctrine of eternal suffering in Hell, whether it’s for wrongdoing or wrong belief.  Objections to God’s promotion of genocide, slavery and rape in the Bible.  I would agree with you that Christianity also promotes good things like compassion, forgiveness and the Golden Rule.  But those good things are also to be found in belief systems and ways of life that don’t also incorporate the bad stuff.  Becoming non-theistic does not mean becoming nihilist or even materialist.  Many of us have explored and benefited from exploring versions of Buddhism and other eastern religions, or learning from the wisdom of Greek philosophers who - happily - are seeing a resurgence of popularity as more people leave Christianity. 
 

I like the Prof’s emphasis on what works for each of us:

 

We deconverted because we became convinced Christianity didn’t work for us and also - by the way - that it was literally untrue.  Many of us were content to replace all the dogma and theology with nothing in particular.  That works for some but doesn’t work for others.  But I’m convinced that there are plenty of alternatives to replace the aspects of Christianity that we may have missed, without going back to a belief system we had lost confidence in.  

 

Just my two cents worth. 

 

 

I can't say you're wrong on most of this.  But I would point out that Buddhism is a huge and diverse religion, containing all sorts of hells, magical thinking, and inhumane bullshit.  Just about any large, diverse, old religion contains similar bullshit as far as I can tell.  I think that's a perfectly natural evolution for a religion... it's going to address/contain the dark side of human consciousness in one way or another.  I'm not saying that's necessarily a 'good' thing, but I think it's an ordinary thing.

 

Lots of people follow a sanitized, secularized, westernized version of Buddhism- and that's fine.  I'm not saying anybody is wrong to do so.  But for my purposes, approaching Christianity as a non-fundamentalist accomplishes much the same thing.  While keeping intact my cultural heritage, family ties, etc... which IMO are damn near necessary for a spiritual practice to work as intended (or as evolved?).

 

I have definitely lost confidence in fundamentalist Christianity, and have no plans to return to that.  What's changed is that I'm willing to set aside my objections to fundamentalism and all the harmful bullshit that goes with it.  As an adult of sound mind, education and life experience, fundamentalism just doesn't interest me- it's obviously wrong.  It leads to obviously bad outcomes. 

 

But my objections to fundamentalism, and the years of fear/anguish/bullshit I lived because of it... I no longer want that to separate me from my spiritual/cultural roots.  That's a choice I'm capable of making.  How long will it work for me?  I guess we'll see 

 

If people in my old church want to hold on to fundamentalism- that's their business.  I'm not there to change their mind or to prove anything to them.  I can still visit, participate, have a good time, pray with them, treat them like family.  We don't need to agree on the fundamentalism part.  If at some point they come to believe that I'm a milquetoast nominal Christian who's going to hell... I don't care.  That's their problem- not mine 

 

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

19 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

If people in my old church want to hold on to fundamentalism- that's their business.  I'm not there to change their mind or to prove anything to them.  I can still visit, participate, have a good time, pray with them, treat them like family.  We don't need to agree on the fundamentalism part.  If at some point they come to believe that I'm a milquetoast nominal Christian who's going to hell... I don't care.  That's their problem- not mine 

 

If that works for you, go for it!   Perhaps it will go for you better than it went for me.  I got tired of pretending to be something I was not.  And tip toeing around being careful to not say something that would embarrass family, etc.  But that is just me----somewhat of a maverick.

[RankStranger]

4 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

@RankStranger

 

I hope you don't mind indulging me for a little while. I have a lot of questions. And right now your the only one that can answer those questions. I think it is important for our work here at ExC to understand why someone would return. From what you have said so far it seems to me, that your need to fulfill your tribal instincts as a human was the deciding factor and primary influence on your return to the fold. I know there is probably more to it. But would that be a correct general assessment?

 

To go along with that question. How was your relationship with your family and former church friends while being a non-believer? Did they continue to have a relationship with you and you with them? 

 

Also what is your level of belief now? You said you weren't a fundamentalist. And that is a very general term and can be interpreted differently according to what your personal definition of fundy is. Me personally (if returning ever happened) I would never be able to believe in pretty much the whole of Genesis. As a former athiest I doubt you would be like most Christians and claim scientists don't know what they are talking about. Do you still agree with science when it contradicts with stories like creation, Noah's ark, and the tower of babel? I know some Christians consider those stories metaphorical in nature. Or accept that they aren't true but other "more important" parts of the Bible are true and aren't affected by not believing in those stories. 

 

Thanks,

DB

 

Of course I don't mind- we're all here for a discussion.  I'll try and address all this in no particular order.

 

My relationship with fundamentalist friends and family has always remained intact.  But definitely distant and strained due to our differences in belief, my own anger/problems, and physical distance.  I was never disowned, and I never disowned them- but we couldn't relate on or even discuss a lot of things without somebody coming away hurt from the conversation.

 

I had realized for a long time- from at least 15 years ago- that religion/spirituality was a normal and healthy life experience for a human ape... an experience that I was not capable of engaging.  While fully acknowledging that this isn't a rational experience... it's a very human experience.  One that I longed for on some level, and have actively pursued for years.  I've tried pursuing spirituality through the Unitarian Universalist church, through psychedelics, through meditation, through prayer, through decades of reading and arguing about religion.  So this isn't a new interest for me.  And honestly I can't say that my beliefs have changed all that much since re-engaging with Christianity... the biggest thing is that I'm willing and able to acknowledge that I do have, and maybe always had, a belief in God on some deep level.  I'll readily admit that it's a childish sort of belief (which Jesus says is the best kind ).  I've called it childhood indoctrination in the past, and I wouldn't dispute that characterization even now.  But whatever you call it, however you characterize it... that belief exists deep in my brain.  Since that belief remains after 30 years of atheism, I can only conclude that it's a permanent fixture.

 

This is also about forgiveness.  Like a lot of atheists, I've held onto years/decades of anger, hurt, pain, etc. from my fundamentalist upbringing.  Atheism IMO kept my sanity intact when I needed that- but it comes at a real cost.  A cost that I no longer want/need to pay.  For decades, atheism has left me unable to engage in any sort of spirituality, and unable to relate to family and friends who still are and will always be fundamentalists.  I want to be able set aside my disagreements, my grievances, my complaints, and accept my original tribe for who they are- even if I can only do that for a few hours at a stretch.  I want to not cynically oppose my own cultural heritage just because it's irrational and in many ways harmful.  Because those two criticisms- true as they are- are also true of just about any cultural heritage I can name.  I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak... and at this point in my life I don't need to.  

 

And as far as forgiveness goes... my original tribe is all about that, as a concept.  We have rituals just for that purpose, and all are welcome.  Is it perfect and literally true?  IMO no, on both counts.  But it's as real as anything in the spiritual realm, and it can be a thing of beauty if you're willing to see it. 

 

For me, being a Christian means that I acknowledge and engage what faith I have- childish and irrational though it may be.  It means that I no longer actively oppose my tribe, and in fact I identify as one of them even though we have our disagreements.  It means that I can participate and engage with my fellow Christians to whatever extent I choose to- and disengage when/if I feel uncomfortable.  For now this means I'll participate when I want... where I can do so kindly, respectfully, and in good faith.  Where I can't meet those criteria, I just keep my mouth shut and keep my own counsel.  You know, like a full grown man who respects his tribe but also has his own ideas 

 

When it comes to old bible stories like the Flood, parting of the Red Sea, the creation story, etc.- these are the stories of my people.  Every tribe has them, and nobody outside the tribe sees them as literally true.  They are what they are.  There probably is some literal truth somewhere in some of them.  But for the most part this is a foundational mythology.  Any value I see would have to be cultural, allegorical, meditative, etc.  I have no interest in going to the Creation Museum or anything like that.  Let's not be silly here 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

6 hours ago, RankStranger said:

I'll readily admit that it's a childish sort of belief (which Jesus says is the best kind )

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your openness to talk about it. I'll take some of your points and try to move on from there.

 

There may be typos. I typed this over several hours at work a little at a time between jobs. I'll read through it when I get home and fix what I can. 

 

When I first came here there were several members and probably still are that didn't believe that Jesus actually existed. For me..... I haven't made that connection. I feel like there probably was a person, possibly a failed prophet, that the writers identifying as Paul and Peter probably knew and based the creation of Christianity on. I've also pondered if this person was what we would call an illusionist or magician. A good illusionist 2000 years ago would have been able to perform acts that would have been considered miracles. That of course is all speculation. But I would rather think that at the very least the person I worshipped was atleast based on some truth. 

 

I think I already know the answer from what you've said already. But did you ever stop believing that Jesus existed?

 

To go along with that. What are your current beliefs about the actual Jesus? 

 

 

6 hours ago, RankStranger said:

When it comes to old bible stories like the Flood, parting of the Red Sea, the creation story, etc.- these are the stories of my people.  Every tribe has them, and nobody outside the tribe sees them as literally true.  They are what they are.  There probably is some literal truth somewhere in some of them.  But for the most part this is a foundational mythology.  Any value I see would have to be cultural, allegorical, meditative, etc.  I have no interest in going to the Creation Museum or anything like that.  Let's not be silly here 

 

If I were to ever attempt to believe again this would have to be the stance I took as well. 

 

For me tho, It's all or nothing because of the way I was taught to believe. And having been a preacher I can't disconnect the latter parts of the Bible from the former. To me they are all tied together and inseparable like a chain. Adam and eve led to Abraham, who led to David, who led to Jesus. (Thats skipping many links in the chain. But you get what I'm saying right?) The same with the multitude of supposed messianic prophecies in the old testament. For me without all that being "true". It is impossible for me to reconcile with Christianity. 

 

Anyway, thats me. 

 

You wrote a very loaded section in that last reply when you came to the subject of forgiveness. would you be willing to elaborate on some of it? If not just let me know and I will Segway in another direction. 

 

6 hours ago, RankStranger said:

This is also about forgiveness.  Like a lot of atheists, I've held onto years/decades of anger, hurt, pain, etc. from my fundamentalist upbringing. 

 

Could you elaborate on what fundamentalist teachings caused this anger, hurt, and pain? I know that some churches get very strict with their rules and regulations for members, children, wives, etc. Etc.

 

My old church was one of the more strict churches. I've heard of worse tho. 

 

6 hours ago, RankStranger said:

Atheism IMO kept my sanity intact when I needed that- but it comes at a real cost.  One that I'm no longer want/need to pay. 

 

Isn't it Ironic that Atheism kept your sanity from religion but also led you back to religion? The same religion at that. 

 

I can understand this tho. I'm not a full fledged athiest but my deconversion has come at a price. The biggest of which was my marriage. And the continued issues in the relationship since we are divorced and still trying to make it work. I am completely separated spiritually from my ex wife.

 

I also feel a spiritual emptiness at times. Or a feeling like I'm missing something. I guess that's to be expected when you live a good portion of life thinking that your continued life after death and religious fulfillment hinge on having Jesus in your life. Plus the embedded childhood indoctrination you spoke of. 

 

Here's another good one. Do you think you would have any of these urges to return to Christianity if it weren't for childhood indoctrination? 

 

I am spiritually separated from most of my family as well. But that doesn't affect me. We just don't talk about religion. I still get along with my mom n dad. And they mean the world to me. I'm a proud mama's boy.

 

But maybe I was already conditioned mentally for not being spiritually close to family prior to my deconversion. My beliefs ended up not being the same as my parents. Even when we were all worshipping in faiths that were considered Baptist. Their Baptist was different from my Baptist. Then I converted to holiness and we just stopped talking religion all together. It bothered me as a Christian that I still felt spiritually separated from them. But I believed a different interpretation and I couldn't change that. Just as now I no longer believe and can't change that either. 

 

I've been deconverted 6 years in Feb. And for me, just the peace of mind I've gained from finally knowing the truths of the Bible out weigh the bad that has come from my deconversion. I was constantly trying to figure out and resolve the fallacies I saw in the bible. As a believer that the bible was inerrant, trying to make it all fit was nigh on to impossible. My brain is finally able to breathe  

 

Knowing there are all kinds of errors, half truths, fables, and forgeries is of great relief. I can finally understand the bible better knowing all that. 

 

6 hours ago, RankStranger said:

through psychedelics

 

I still would like to try peyote. And Marijuana is just a good overall multipurpose drug

 

6 hours ago, RankStranger said:

And as far as forgiveness goes... my original tribe is all about that, as a concept.  We have rituals just for that purpose, and all are welcome.  Is it perfect and literally true?  IMO no, on both counts. 

 

I have to ask.... What are the rituals? Are you talking about ritual forgiveness of one another? Or the forgiveness that Jesus died for? Mans inherent sin from Adam?

 

Best Regards,

 

Dark Bishop

[TABA]

@TheRedneckProfessor said some things that really resonated with me, especially this…

On 1/4/2023 at 10:21 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

But, for me, one of the most damaging effects of the christian religion, and specifically of childhood indoctrination, is that it robs people of the opportunity to choose their own path based on what really works for them.

 

I’ve often said that when I left Christianity and embraced a non-theistic position without any religious dogma, I felt like I had come home to my true self.   Knowing myself as I do, I’m pretty sure I would never have become a Christian if the theology hadn’t been engraved on my mind from the earliest age.  The Prof’s use of the word “robs” seems exactly right to me.  I was robbed of my ability to come to my own conclusions about issues like gods and religion, and only gained it back after several decades of adulthood. Gaining it back, and reaching the conclusion I did, was probably the most satisfying experience of my life.  And finding this community of people with similar experiences is something I’ll always be thankful for.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

It seems to me that this may be one of the reasons so many of us experience the phases of anger, resentment, and disillusionment during deconversion.  For me, not only realizing that I had been robbed, but also the slow dawning of exactly how much had been taken from me, sometimes by force, mind you--it all left me deeply traumatized, scarred.  I suppose there must be some kind of emotional/psychological version of "fight or flight"; because it seems like we either get angry in response to it all, or we sort of run away mentally and end up with bipolar, depression, or some other condition.  I guess I chose "fight" because that seemed the only response fitting to the manipulation, coercion, and sometimes outright brutality of the indoctrination I experienced.  I'd categorize my own case as armed robbery, as when the bible didn't work, the belt surely did. 

[TABA]

I have to admit my own indoctrination was kinder and gentler - mostly - and my deconversion less traumatic than many have dealt with.  Seeing how the Prof and others suffered, both before and during their deconversions, has made me determined to be utterly done with Christianity.  That plus my realization of how my own mind was hijacked.  
 

Prof, besides your own evident resilience and determination, what if anything helped you through the whole process? 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

23 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

For now this means I'll participate when I want... where I can do so kindly, respectfully, and in good faith.  Where I can't meet those criteria, I just keep my mouth shut and keep my own counsel.  You know, like a full grown man who respects his tribe but also has his own ideas

 

If you can give up the all or none thinking that was programmed into you, that will help.  See yourself as agnostic.  That there is simply a heck of a lot we don't know, or understand.

 

23 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

When it comes to old bible stories like the Flood, parting of the Red Sea, the creation story, etc.- these are the stories of my people.  Every tribe has them, and nobody outside the tribe sees them as literally true.  They are what they are.  There probably is some literal truth somewhere in some of them.  But for the most part this is a foundational mythology.  Any value I see would have to be cultural, allegorical, meditative, etc.  I have no interest in going to the Creation Museum or anything like that.  Let's not be silly here 

 

Iv'e been looking at history recently that pre-dates the bible era.  It appears there are some threads of truth in these stories, but as anything goes with humans, it has been misunderstood, misused, and modified to fit the point they want to make.  And some of the possible causes of the events has been denied by the status quo. 

 

The thing that is coming through LOUD AND STRONG is that "religion" was developed to condition/program humans into submission to authority like we train dogs today.  Rewards for what they consider good behavior, and punishment for bad behavior.  And the punishment can become extreme.  And some of the worst punishment is for not bowing down to authority.  It literally undermines your "free will", and makes you a robot if you fully buy into it.  That is why I think religion with infallible dieties is a slippery slope, and want to keep as far away from it as possible.

[TABA]

25 minutes ago, Weezer said:

That is why I think religion with infallible dieties is a slippery slope, and want to keep as far away from it as possible.

Exactly!  Whenever somebody says “God says….” or “God wants….”, trouble is sure to follow.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, TABA said:

Prof, besides your own evident resilience and determination, what if anything helped you through the whole process?

Whiskey.

[RankStranger]

17 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

<snip>

 

Dark Bishop

 

I'll get back to you on the specifics- that's going to take a while.  

 

But as a starting point, these days I've found myself having ties to the Congregational Church.  It's not something I planned or actively pursued... but I kinda married into an affiliation with this denomination.  There are no doubt areas where I'll disagree, but I like their approach.  This is from some rando Congregationalist church, but it sums the denomination's approach pretty well:  https://www.ccclamesa.com/get-to-know-us/congregationalism/what-it-means-to-be-a-member-of-a-congregational-church#:~:text=Congregational Christians believe deeply in,as binding on all members.

 

 

One thing I've wondered about over the years is this:  If I had been raised in a sane church (i.e. not a hellfire/brimstone fundamentalist church), I wonder if I would have just remained a nominal Christian the whole time.  I wonder if my mental health would be better for it.  With my world view and with what I know about the history of the church and other religions (including mythologies pre-dating Jesus that share a lot of his features), the only honest approach I have available is a liberal form of Christianity.  I'm not going to lie and say I can prove or firmly believe in the historicity of Jesus.  That's lost to time, and isn't necessarily important IMO.

 

I know this makes me a heretic in the eyes of many fundamentalists and even athiests of a fundamentalist background... and I'm more than fine with that.  Fundamentalists don't own Jesus, and they no longer have any say in how I relate to Christianity.  

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

One thing I've wondered about over the years is this:  If I had been raised in a sane church (i.e. not a hellfire/brimstone fundamentalist church), I wonder if I would have just remained a nominal Christian the whole time.  I wonder if my mental health would be better for it. 

I certainly relate to this.  I believe that if I had been raised in the little Lutheran church my grandparents and cousins all went to,  I'd have turned out differently.  

[◊ Weezer ◊]

5 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

One thing I've wondered about over the years is this:  If I had been raised in a sane church (i.e. not a hellfire/brimstone fundamentalist church), I wonder if I would have just remained a nominal Christian the whole time.  I wonder if my mental health would be better for it. 

 

Probably.  I have had the same thoughts.  Several of my friends and relatives are in that boat.  They don't worry about salvation.  They just go to church if they feel like it, and just keep plugging along.

[Myrkhoos]

Well, Idk. Just that, I think deep connections cannot exist without a shared worldview, I don't know how deep you want to reconnect though.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 hours ago, TABA said:

Prof, besides your own evident resilience and determination, what if anything helped you through the whole process? 

 

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Whiskey.

I say that as a joke, of course.  In truth, I think while the numbing effects of alcohol my have provided temporary succor from the emotional turmoil and tempest, in the long run I'd have likely been healthier sooner had I not been simultaneously emotionally crippling myself with substance abuse.  Alcohol and addiction were both, I think, directly correlated to my being forced to walk a path that was not mine to walk.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

For me, the problem of evil/suffering, divine hiddenness, logical contradictions, and the rest of it are all good reasons to disbelieve in the existence of a god in general.  Reasons that theists have yet to provide satisfactory answers.   But for the christian god in particular, the whole idea of substitutionary death is too abhorrent for me to ever believe, let alone trust or worship.  That the christian god requires blood for the atonement of sin, suggests that he is evil.  That he would kill someone else in my stead, suggests that he is cruel.  To then add eternal conscious torment in hellfire and brimstone for nothing more than unbelief, suggests that he delights himself in cruelty and evil.  He must take pleasure in it, or he would have omnipotently created a different situation that did not require blood, death, and eternal damnation. 

 

I can understand the social drive to find a tribe of like-minded folks.  I can relate to the desire to reconnect with the populace of the village that raised me.  I wholeheartedly support the personal necessity of touching the "spiritual" side of the human experience.  But the cruelty and evil of the christian god is simply unacceptable to me; and that, more than anything else, would prevent me from ever going back to christianity.  

 

Speaking strictly for myself, of course; and not looking to argue or denigrate any one else's choice.  Just explaining my own reasons for the choice I've made.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

But for the christian god in particular, the whole idea of substitutionary death is too abhorrent for me to ever believe, let alone trust or worship. 

To expound on this a bit: the very idea that there needs to be blood shed for the atonement of sin is abhorrent enough by itself, given that an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god should have both the power and the compassion to forgive without such brutality.   But, if bloodshed is the only way this supposedly omniscient god can think of to forgive, then let my "sins" be my own responsibility. 

 

No one else should ever bear the responsibility of my wrong-doing nor of making my amends.  I was never once consulted about this idea for jesus to die in my place; and I most certainly would not have consented to it, nor authorized it if I had been.  To now be coerced into accepting his death in my stead, on pain of eternal hellfire, is nothing more than emotional blackmail.  It is impossible for me to accept this "sacrifice" when I do not even accept the premise,  that bloodshed is necessary, upon which this "punishment" is based.

 

It is further impossible to accept that jesus bore consequences of "sin" when it is apparent that eternal damnation awaits every "sinner" anyway, despite the good lord's "sacrifice".  So, how does his death actually atone for the sins of the world, if simple disbelief is enough to completely nullify the atoning effect of his death?  Nor is his death effective against the horrific sins of believing in the wrong version of christianity, or subscribing to the wrong interpretation of the scripture.  Obviously, the only plan that this omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god could conjure will still result in the vast majority of humanity suffering hellfire everlasting, including most of his own believers.

 

This makes it perfectly clear to me that the god who designed this barbaric system must take considerable pleasure in cruelty and evil.  To place responsibility for "sin" onto the shoulders of his innocent son, while simultaneously holding us all equally accountable for the same "sin" and subject to eternal conscious torment in consequence is as nefarious as it is manipulative as it is abusive.

 

god cannot have it both ways.  Either jesus' death truly atones for sin and nothing more is required, not even belief in the unbelievable, or acceptance of the unacceptable; or, we are all still responsible for sin and hell awaits, with or without our consent.  Or, perhaps, this obvious contradiction is yet further evidence that the christian god is an invention of ignorant, and possibly demented, people.  Either way, neither my personal integrity nor my moral code would allow me to accept the idea of "salvation" as it is presented in the gospel. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 1/6/2023 at 1:10 PM, RankStranger said:

I'll get back to you on the specifics- that's going to take a while.  

Hey Rank,

 

Are you wanting to continue with this?

 

Thanks,

DB

[Myrkhoos]

On 1/7/2023 at 10:47 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

To expound on this a bit: the very idea that there needs to be blood shed for the atonement of sin is abhorrent enough by itself, given that an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god should have both the power and the compassion to forgive without such brutality.   But, if bloodshed is the only way this supposedly omniscient god can think of to forgive, then let my "sins" be my own responsibility. 

 

No one else should ever bear the responsibility of my wrong-doing nor of making my amends.  I was never once consulted about this idea for jesus to die in my place; and I most certainly would not have consented to it, nor authorized it if I had been.  To now be coerced into accepting his death in my stead, on pain of eternal hellfire, is nothing more than emotional blackmail.  It is impossible for me to accept this "sacrifice" when I do not even accept the premise,  that bloodshed is necessary, upon which this "punishment" is based.

 

It is further impossible to accept that jesus bore consequences of "sin" when it is apparent that eternal damnation awaits every "sinner" anyway, despite the good lord's "sacrifice".  So, how does his death actually atone for the sins of the world, if simple disbelief is enough to completely nullify the atoning effect of his death?  Nor is his death effective against the horrific sins of believing in the wrong version of christianity, or subscribing to the wrong interpretation of the scripture.  Obviously, the only plan that this omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god could conjure will still result in the vast majority of humanity suffering hellfire everlasting, including most of his own believers.

 

This makes it perfectly clear to me that the god who designed this barbaric system must take considerable pleasure in cruelty and evil.  To place responsibility for "sin" onto the shoulders of his innocent son, while simultaneously holding us all equally accountable for the same "sin" and subject to eternal conscious torment in consequence is as nefarious as it is manipulative as it is abusive.

 

god cannot have it both ways.  Either jesus' death truly atones for sin and nothing more is required, not even belief in the unbelievable, or acceptance of the unacceptable; or, we are all still responsible for sin and hell awaits, with or without our consent.  Or, perhaps, this obvious contradiction is yet further evidence that the christian god is an invention of ignorant, and possibly demented, people.  Either way, neither my personal integrity nor my moral code would allow me to accept the idea of "salvation" as it is presented in the gospel. 

     I already said my own view on the source of many religious ideas or at least the source of their resistance throughout history. I would like to add that, I have my ideas , informed by some historical readings, that the contradictions are also caused by the fact that religion is usually a mishmash of sometimes very different ideas, practices, people, kind of put together in an uneven fashion. It didn't really appear as the sole, systematic work of one guy working for decades for perfect logical precision.

      Sometimes, that is why some movies look so nonsensical ( I have a BA and MA degree in Screenwriting). So many people, from screenwriters, to producers, to directors, to actors, to editors take a jab at it, with no respect to the overall coherence, only to some superficial vanity, or personal interest - like an actor saying, yeah well I don't my character to swear because I have good guy image, even though that character is some gruesome football hooligan, or a producer .

saying well, I need your three hour movie in a precise 100 minutes for commercial purposes, etc.

       In the example of Christian dogma, the omnipotence comes from an area, the blood sacrifice from another, the substitutionary atonement model( which is sort of played down in the Orthodox Church), the Trinity, the saints, etc. Another metaphor is some piece of legislation in a very diverse Congress - because of so many compromises and alliances, it looks like to translate a Romanian expression, it tries to satisfy both the goat and the cabbage. I really this idea that - oh it has and should have a coherent dogma throughout its whole history is just, quite frankly, unsustainable given the evidence I have seen.

[RankStranger]

19 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Hey Rank,

 

Are you wanting to continue with this?

 

Thanks,

DB

 

Yeah, more or less.  But you've asked a lot of questions.  Very specific and personal questions.

 

I was not expecting the Spanish Inquisition 

[RankStranger]

On 1/5/2023 at 5:29 PM, DarkBishop said:

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your openness to talk about it. I'll take some of your points and try to move on from there.

 

There may be typos. I typed this over several hours at work a little at a time between jobs. I'll read through it when I get home and fix what I can. 

 

When I first came here there were several members and probably still are that didn't believe that Jesus actually existed. For me..... I haven't made that connection. I feel like there probably was a person, possibly a failed prophet, that the writers identifying as Paul and Peter probably knew and based the creation of Christianity on. I've also pondered if this person was what we would call an illusionist or magician. A good illusionist 2000 years ago would have been able to perform acts that would have been considered miracles. That of course is all speculation. But I would rather think that at the very least the person I worshipped was atleast based on some truth. 

 

I think I already know the answer from what you've said already. But did you ever stop believing that Jesus existed?

 

To go along with that. What are your current beliefs about the actual Jesus? 

 

 

 

If I were to ever attempt to believe again this would have to be the stance I took as well. 

 

For me tho, It's all or nothing because of the way I was taught to believe. And having been a preacher I can't disconnect the latter parts of the Bible from the former. To me they are all tied together and inseparable like a chain. Adam and eve led to Abraham, who led to David, who led to Jesus. (Thats skipping many links in the chain. But you get what I'm saying right?) The same with the multitude of supposed messianic prophecies in the old testament. For me without all that being "true". It is impossible for me to reconcile with Christianity. 

 

Anyway, thats me. 

 

You wrote a very loaded section in that last reply when you came to the subject of forgiveness. would you be willing to elaborate on some of it? If not just let me know and I will Segway in another direction. 

 

 

Could you elaborate on what fundamentalist teachings caused this anger, hurt, and pain? I know that some churches get very strict with their rules and regulations for members, children, wives, etc. Etc.

 

My old church was one of the more strict churches. I've heard of worse tho. 

 

 

Isn't it Ironic that Atheism kept your sanity from religion but also led you back to religion? The same religion at that. 

 

I can understand this tho. I'm not a full fledged athiest but my deconversion has come at a price. The biggest of which was my marriage. And the continued issues in the relationship since we are divorced and still trying to make it work. I am completely separated spiritually from my ex wife.

 

I also feel a spiritual emptiness at times. Or a feeling like I'm missing something. I guess that's to be expected when you live a good portion of life thinking that your continued life after death and religious fulfillment hinge on having Jesus in your life. Plus the embedded childhood indoctrination you spoke of. 

 

Here's another good one. Do you think you would have any of these urges to return to Christianity if it weren't for childhood indoctrination? 

 

I am spiritually separated from most of my family as well. But that doesn't affect me. We just don't talk about religion. I still get along with my mom n dad. And they mean the world to me. I'm a proud mama's boy.

 

But maybe I was already conditioned mentally for not being spiritually close to family prior to my deconversion. My beliefs ended up not being the same as my parents. Even when we were all worshipping in faiths that were considered Baptist. Their Baptist was different from my Baptist. Then I converted to holiness and we just stopped talking religion all together. It bothered me as a Christian that I still felt spiritually separated from them. But I believed a different interpretation and I couldn't change that. Just as now I no longer believe and can't change that either. 

 

I've been deconverted 6 years in Feb. And for me, just the peace of mind I've gained from finally knowing the truths of the Bible out weigh the bad that has come from my deconversion. I was constantly trying to figure out and resolve the fallacies I saw in the bible. As a believer that the bible was inerrant, trying to make it all fit was nigh on to impossible. My brain is finally able to breathe  

 

Knowing there are all kinds of errors, half truths, fables, and forgeries is of great relief. I can finally understand the bible better knowing all that. 

 

 

I still would like to try peyote. And Marijuana is just a good overall multipurpose drug

 

 

I have to ask.... What are the rituals? Are you talking about ritual forgiveness of one another? Or the forgiveness that Jesus died for? Mans inherent sin from Adam?

 

Best Regards,

 

Dark Bishop

 

Let's give this a try though.  Should be interesting.

 

Quote

What are your current beliefs about the actual Jesus? 

 

I don't have a straightforward answer to this, so I'll give you several. 

 

Here's what I tell tell you in a rational/literal sense:  Did Jesus exist at least somewhat as described in the bible, as literal a historical figure?  I have no way of knowing.  I have no doubt that there was a guy named Jesus- quite a lot of them in fact.  I bought a car from Jesus one time.  I expect that there was one or more revolutionary figures in Israel back then, and one of more of them may have been named Jesus.  But considering that several of the stories and miracles attributed to Jesus seem to pre-date his time in other mythologies like Mythra and Gilgamesh, I can only assume that these are borrowed/evolved mythologies much like you'd see in any other religious text.  I can't just un-know what I've read about mythologies long pre-dating Christianity.

 

As an Atheist, this led me to conclude that Jesus was a mythological figure, and of no more value to me than Zeus.  Obviously I see it differently now.  Jesus may be a mythological figure... but he's my mythological figure.

 

And yet on some level I do in fact believe.  This isn't something I just decided- it's something I discovered, more or less by accident.  The choice I've made here is to acknowledge that belief... to no longer fight it and to in fact lean into it- even though I can't justify it at all on a rational level.  Because that belief exists in me whether I acknowledge it or not.

 

This opens up a whole discussion into the nature of belief.  What exactly is belief?  How does one know if one believes something?  It's something I've chewed on for most of my life, for obvious evangelical reasons.  As an Atheist I would've said that if I couldn't rationally justify something, then I didn't believe it.  I no longer think that's the case.  Nor do I think I necessarily have a choice in the matter.

 

Do you retain any vestiges of your Christian beliefs?  Do you still find yourself sometimes fearing hell, longing for heaven, or turning your thoughts toward God?  I could and did dismiss all this for decades.  But if it's still in my head after all this time, then IMO that's a belief of some sort whether I like it or not.  

 

I doubt it's the sort of belief that would satisfy Fundy Jesus.  But that's not my problem

 

On a rational level, it would be fair to say that I'm an Agnostic Christian.  But it turns out that I also have some amount of faith... which is not contingent on any rational explanation.  It has remained, regardless of what my rational mind believes.

 

 

 

Quote

You wrote a very loaded section in that last reply when you came to the subject of forgiveness. would you be willing to elaborate on some of it? If not just let me know and I will Segway in another direction. 

 

Sure.  

 

I've struggled with chronic depression and anger for most of my life- since I was a teenager.  I had a lot of problems at that time in my life, most of it either directly or indirectly tied up with the church.  Consequently I left at age 18 and for 25+ years had no intention of ever returning.

 

This anger/depression has been a direct cause of a majority of the problems in my life as an adult.  Over the years I've sought help from every angle I could come up... with mixed/temporary success at best.  One thing I've noticed over the years is that I find myself being fixated and pissed off about things from my past that are now decades behind me.  Things that happened long ago and far away... in many cases involving people who would never have been capable of understanding the problem in the first place.  All of the people involved have moved on with life in one way or another.  For the most part, these problems no longer exist anywhere except in my own mind.

 

I've come to believe that the only resolution available to me at this point in my life is forgiveness.  That might sound trivial, but for me it's no simple thing.  I can't really even tell you what forgiveness is, how it works, or what an effective approach looks like.  IMO that's getting into the realm of philosophy, psychology, and religion.  Squishy and poorly defined areas in life that my engineer brain has never dealt with very well.  But IMO that doesn't make this problem, or those disciplines, any less real.

 

After quite a bit of reading, podcasting, meditation, prayer, etc., I've come think that the only way I can forgive is to come to a new understanding of my past.  To integrate my adult understanding of the world with the dysfunctional childhood I left behind.  And well, here we are.  In some ways it's not unlike a person with a phobia slowly and methodically exposing themselves to their trigger.  I started praying years ago... and it's been baby-steps since then.

 

I'm going to make a suggestion here that some may not like, but I think it's worth pointing out.  In this thread (and all over this site, including my own posts from years ago), there are instances where people are expressing a sort of anger- or involuntary hostility- toward Christianity and/or Preacher BillyBob.  Such that they just can't stand to listen to Preacher BillyBob or be in his self-righteous Jesusy presence.  I've felt the same way myself, and still do to some extent.  But if I can't sit and listen to Preacher BillyBob belting out whatever nasty version of Christianity suits him... without getting pissed off and/or leaving in a huff... what does that say about me?  IMO that suggests that Preacher BillyBob and/or his nasty self-serving version of Christianity still has power over me.  Power to piss me off.  Power to separate me from my non-skeptical, permanently-Christian parents.  Power to make me so uncomfortable that I have to leave lest I make an ass of myself... just based on his words and mannerisms.  

 

I've decided that Preacher BillyBob no longer has that power over me.  I may prove it to myself again at some point by visiting Church Camp 

[RankStranger]

I'll get to the rest of your post DB.  All in good time

[Myrkhoos]

2 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

 

 

I'm going to make a suggestion here that some may not like, but I think it's worth pointing out.  In this thread (and all over this site, including my own posts from years ago), there are instances where people are expressing a sort of anger- or involuntary hostility- toward Christianity and/or Preacher BillyBob.  Such that they just can't stand to listen to Preacher BillyBob or be in his self-righteous Jesusy presence.  I've felt the same way myself, and still do to some extent.  But if I can't sit and listen to Preacher BillyBob belting out whatever nasty version of Christianity suits him... without getting pissed off and/or leaving in a huff... what does that say about me?  IMO that suggests that Preacher BillyBob and/or his nasty self-serving version of Christianity still has power over me.  Power to piss me off.  Power to separate me from my non-skeptical, permanently-Christian parents.  Power to make me so uncomfortable that I have to leave lest I make an ass of myself... just based on his words and mannerisms.  

 

I've decided that Preacher BillyBob no longer has that power over me.  I may prove it to myself again at some point by visiting Church Camp 

Maybe I misunderstand, but I think some of the way you present this sounds kind of weird, and, dare I say, psychologically dubious, if not unhealthy. Just because a situation, action, or person causes me a certain emotional reaction does mean he has "power over me" in any meaningful way more than saying crushed onion causes me to sense an intense smell, or chilli peppers causes me to have a intense taste. We are, besides everything else, emotional creatures, and our emotions have different roles, to understand and orient ourselves in the world. I think that anger can be appropiate at some times in a level of intensity. Listening to something you consider downright harmful can be an occasion where that emotion is appropriate. I mean, as a personal example, I am not a nationalist or anything, but I do get, maybe visibly, angry if someone starts bashing Romanians just out of spite. I might react and express my anger. Or is a Jew supposed to be serene and detached when listening to nazi apologia, or should she/he feel angry and even furious?

          I just don't buy this new agey idea, which you can find also in many other spaces, that anger, or any type of aggresive behaviour is always wrong. Or even any emotion.

          I mean, do you consider that if your loved one says happy birthday to you, and you feel happy, that means they have power over you?

          Of course, I do understand that a level of self control is necessary, but that is totally different from total emotional numbness or repression.

          Maybe sometimes, you should be pissed off. Maybe sometimes you should cause a ruckus. Maybe sometimes you should separate from your parents. In different degrees.

         I think we should restrict "power over me" to cases where actually has some real ability to coerce or manipulate you. Like a police office has real power over you, legally, and many times, physically speaking ( more guns and better guns). Otherwise I think the phrase can be used waaaay beyond its boundaries. Like today where the word "trigger"- which has a very specific meaning in psychology, usually relating to instances of severe PTSD , tends to be used about everything that casually annoys you

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 hours ago, RankStranger said:

I'm going to make a suggestion here that some may not like, but I think it's worth pointing out.  In this thread (and all over this site, including my own posts from years ago), there are instances where people are expressing a sort of anger- or involuntary hostility- toward Christianity and/or Preacher BillyBob.  Such that they just can't stand to listen to Preacher BillyBob or be in his self-righteous Jesusy presence.  I've felt the same way myself, and still do to some extent.  But if I can't sit and listen to Preacher BillyBob belting out whatever nasty version of Christianity suits him... without getting pissed off and/or leaving in a huff... what does that say about me?  IMO that suggests that Preacher BillyBob and/or his nasty self-serving version of Christianity still has power over me.  Power to piss me off.  Power to separate me from my non-skeptical, permanently-Christian parents.  Power to make me so uncomfortable that I have to leave lest I make an ass of myself... just based on his words and mannerisms.

I'm going to draw a comparison here, and I need it understood that this is only a comparison.  Ot is not an invitation for anyone to turn this thread into fodder for the Opine Club.   

 

With that said:

 

Does anyone ever ask what the resentment Sandy Hook parents feel toward Alex Jones says about them?  Or are most people able to look at the situation and realize that, even though Mr. Jones might not have been the one who gunned down their kids, he certainly perpetuated a narrative that further exacerbated the trauma they had already experienced, adding even more emotional injury and psychological scarring?  I would find it completely understandable if those parents really just didn't want to sit and chat over coffee with the man.

 

Pastor Billy Bob might be the nicest person in the world.  He might not have ever personally abused, traumatized, misled, or even raped anyone.  But he still perpetuates a narrative that links directly to ttrauma, abuse, emotional and psychological damage that many have suffered as a result of religion.  Who am I to determine how they should process those emotions?  Who am I that I should say they err in their resentment?  Am I not also capable of understanding that the anger they feel toward the damage done is simply being projected on the most obvious, and perhaps also the most appropriate, target?

 

On a personal level, I chose some time ago to process the anger and resentment; and I have striven to do so,  with some success.  But a big part of finding my own path in life is the discovery that my path may not work for anyone else.  And, with that discovery, comes the determination to allow others the same freedom of self-discovery and self-determination--helping where I can, but careful to hinder not.

 

If you find your refusal to listen to Pastor Billy Bob speaks negatively of your character, then I would certainly encourage you to explore that finding and see where it takes you.  Hell, I'd even offer what experience, strength, and hope I have gained to help you sift through it all.  But I would do so while simultaneously shielding those still scarred and raw by the narrative Pastor Billy Bob perpetuates. 

[RankStranger]

I think something is lost in translation here.  I thought my 'Preacher BillyBob has no power over me' idea might not be popular, but I didn't expect it to be taken as an attack.  It wasn't meant that way.

 

I'm speaking from my own perspective, as one feeling out a different relationship with the church.  This is my own project- nobody else's here.  DB asked about forgiveness, and I'm sketching out part of what I think it could look like in practice. 

 

I know that if I continue to go to church (nobody else here needs to so this), I will inevitably come across some Preacher BillyBob telling us all why we're going to hell this week because [insert obscure, threatening bible verse] unless we believe and do precisely [insert obscure, threatening bible verse].  I have no plans to seek out this specific sort of thing, but it will definitely happen.  Do I get to choose how I react?  Or do I just rage in protest, letting Preacher BillyBob's words/actions make that choice for me?

 

I say that Preacher BillyBob doesn't get to ruin my experience.  Preacher BillyBob believes what he believes... I believe what I believe.  We all shake hands and go home happy 

 

And to be clear, the preacher at my old church doesn't currently qualify as a Preacher BillyBob.  He seems like a nice, intelligent, well meaning guy.  No doubt we'll disagree in some areas, but that need not be a problem.

 

 

Now Professor, maybe I'm reading you wrong, but I get the impression that I'm posting things that may be unwelcome here.  If that's the case, just say so.  This isn't a debate or a sermon.  But if I'm going to answer DB's questions, we're bound to cover some uncomfortable territory.

 

I under stand that you, Myrkhoos and others are straight up opposed to Christianity, as a matter of principle.  That's your business and I know you have your reasons.  But I'm not opposed to Christianity- not anymore.  I have my reasons, and I can explain if asked.  We don't need to agree.