Going back to church for Christmas

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 hours ago, RankStranger said:

Now Professor, maybe I'm reading you wrong, but I get the impression that I'm posting things that may be unwelcome here.  If that's the case, just say so.  This isn't a debate or a sermon.  But if I'm going to answer DB's questions, we're bound to cover some uncomfortable territory.

No.  We're still good.  I know you're just saying what you need to for your beliefs.  The others and I are saying what we need to for the lurkers and newbies.  And it's being kept cordial and civil.  Carry on.

[RankStranger]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No.  We're still good.  I know you're just saying what you need to for your beliefs.  The others and I are saying what we need to for the lurkers and newbies.  And it's being kept cordial and civil.  Carry on.

 

Awesome.  Maybe at some point if there's mutual interest, we can spin off a discussion or two.  Maybe we could talk about why one would or would not choose to oppose Christianity on principal.  But that doesn't need to be in this thread.

 

And I hope you understand that I'm posting here in large part out of respect for people on this site.  In a sense I owe you all an explanation for my change of heart, and I know no punches will be pulled here.  If I'm being a shitty dishonest hypocrite, I know it will be pointed out.

[RankStranger]

On 1/5/2023 at 5:29 PM, DarkBishop said:

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your openness to talk about it. I'll take some of your points and try to move on from there.

 

There may be typos. I typed this over several hours at work a little at a time between jobs. I'll read through it when I get home and fix what I can. 

 

When I first came here there were several members and probably still are that didn't believe that Jesus actually existed. For me..... I haven't made that connection. I feel like there probably was a person, possibly a failed prophet, that the writers identifying as Paul and Peter probably knew and based the creation of Christianity on. I've also pondered if this person was what we would call an illusionist or magician. A good illusionist 2000 years ago would have been able to perform acts that would have been considered miracles. That of course is all speculation. But I would rather think that at the very least the person I worshipped was atleast based on some truth. 

 

I think I already know the answer from what you've said already. But did you ever stop believing that Jesus existed?

 

To go along with that. What are your current beliefs about the actual Jesus? 

 

 

 

If I were to ever attempt to believe again this would have to be the stance I took as well. 

 

For me tho, It's all or nothing because of the way I was taught to believe. And having been a preacher I can't disconnect the latter parts of the Bible from the former. To me they are all tied together and inseparable like a chain. Adam and eve led to Abraham, who led to David, who led to Jesus. (Thats skipping many links in the chain. But you get what I'm saying right?) The same with the multitude of supposed messianic prophecies in the old testament. For me without all that being "true". It is impossible for me to reconcile with Christianity. 

 

Anyway, thats me. 

 

You wrote a very loaded section in that last reply when you came to the subject of forgiveness. would you be willing to elaborate on some of it? If not just let me know and I will Segway in another direction. 

 

 

Could you elaborate on what fundamentalist teachings caused this anger, hurt, and pain? I know that some churches get very strict with their rules and regulations for members, children, wives, etc. Etc.

 

My old church was one of the more strict churches. I've heard of worse tho. 

 

 

Isn't it Ironic that Atheism kept your sanity from religion but also led you back to religion? The same religion at that. 

 

I can understand this tho. I'm not a full fledged athiest but my deconversion has come at a price. The biggest of which was my marriage. And the continued issues in the relationship since we are divorced and still trying to make it work. I am completely separated spiritually from my ex wife.

 

I also feel a spiritual emptiness at times. Or a feeling like I'm missing something. I guess that's to be expected when you live a good portion of life thinking that your continued life after death and religious fulfillment hinge on having Jesus in your life. Plus the embedded childhood indoctrination you spoke of. 

 

Here's another good one. Do you think you would have any of these urges to return to Christianity if it weren't for childhood indoctrination? 

 

I am spiritually separated from most of my family as well. But that doesn't affect me. We just don't talk about religion. I still get along with my mom n dad. And they mean the world to me. I'm a proud mama's boy.

 

But maybe I was already conditioned mentally for not being spiritually close to family prior to my deconversion. My beliefs ended up not being the same as my parents. Even when we were all worshipping in faiths that were considered Baptist. Their Baptist was different from my Baptist. Then I converted to holiness and we just stopped talking religion all together. It bothered me as a Christian that I still felt spiritually separated from them. But I believed a different interpretation and I couldn't change that. Just as now I no longer believe and can't change that either. 

 

I've been deconverted 6 years in Feb. And for me, just the peace of mind I've gained from finally knowing the truths of the Bible out weigh the bad that has come from my deconversion. I was constantly trying to figure out and resolve the fallacies I saw in the bible. As a believer that the bible was inerrant, trying to make it all fit was nigh on to impossible. My brain is finally able to breathe  

 

Knowing there are all kinds of errors, half truths, fables, and forgeries is of great relief. I can finally understand the bible better knowing all that. 

 

 

I still would like to try peyote. And Marijuana is just a good overall multipurpose drug

 

 

I have to ask.... What are the rituals? Are you talking about ritual forgiveness of one another? Or the forgiveness that Jesus died for? Mans inherent sin from Adam?

 

Best Regards,

 

Dark Bishop

 

More discussion... in no particular order:

 

Quote

For me tho, It's all or nothing because of the way I was taught to believe.

 

I think this is a point worth looking at- because it seems to me that most ExChristians- or at least a large subset- see things much the same way as you.  All or nothing.  It's interesting that so many fundamentalists and ExChristians agree on that particular point.

 

That's how I was taught to believe too, but IMO the 'all or nothing' view is incompatible with what I know of the history of the Bible and Christianity as a practice. 

 

Christianity existed for hundreds of years before the Bible as we know it even existed.  Therefore they couldn't have been explicitly following "The Bible".  Sure they followed parts of what became The Bible- and a lot of other non-biblical stuff as well.

 

I think everybody here, myself included, can agree that the Bible shouldn't be taken literally as a complete, internally consistent, historically accurate, authoritative work.  Its history and its own text just doesn't bear that out.

 

But does that mean we have to take 'nothing' from it?  IMO anybody who grew up in a Christian society takes quite a bit from the Bible implicitly, via culture and tradition, whether we choose that or not.  And we all know that there's a ton of pre-Christian mythology written into The Bible- IMO that's part of what makes the work so compelling.  These are stories that have evolved and been passed down for thousands of years.  I'm not saying that makes it literally true.  But there is a certain power in these stories, and reasons why people have found them compelling for thousands of years.

 

[Myrkhoos]

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

 

Awesome.  Maybe at some point if there's mutual interest, we can spin off a discussion or two.  Maybe we could talk about why one would or would not choose to oppose Christianity on principal.  But that doesn't need to be in this thread.

 

And I hope you understand that I'm posting here in large part out of respect for people on this site.  In a sense I owe you all an explanation for my change of heart, and I know no punches will be pulled here.  If I'm being a shitty dishonest hypocrite, I know it will be pointed out.

I do not oppose "Christianity" on principle.  I oppose certain types of beliefs and behaviours. Some can be found in Christian denominations, but not only, and there are things I can tolerate or even admire. I think preaching eternal damnation for unbelievers , or in general, is harmful full stop and should be fought. I do not respect that belief no more than I respect pedophile apologia. If I could in some way erase it from existence, I would. This thing about live and let live has its limits. I would not let child molesters "live". I believe eternal Hell raises to that level of harm. This as an example. I think simply shrugging it off as , hey it does not affect me so why bother is very, very selfish. I do care about harm that befalls other people. These beliefs are not something like, well, you know, in my town there's guy with an ugly hay. Not. Countless people have and still suffer because of them. You should care. You should be angry. You should be pissed off. :))

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

 

Awesome.  Maybe at some point if there's mutual interest, we can spin off a discussion or two.  Maybe we could talk about why one would or would not choose to oppose Christianity on principal.  But that doesn't need to be in this thread.

 

And I hope you understand that I'm posting here in large part out of respect for people on this site.  In a sense I owe you all an explanation for my change of heart, and I know no punches will be pulled here.  If I'm being a shitty dishonest hypocrite, I know it will be pointed out.

I would certainly invite you to start such threads as you see fit, though perhaps confine any new threads to The Den, just to keep things kosher.

[RankStranger]

1 minute ago, Myrkhoos said:

I do not oppose "Christianity" on principle.  I oppose certain types of beliefs and behaviours. Some can be found in Christian denominations, but not only, and there are things I can tolerate or even admire. I think preaching eternal damnation for unbelievers , or in general, is harmful full stop and should be fought. I do not respect that belief no more than I respect pedophile apologia. If I could in some way erase it from existence, I would. This thing about live and let live has its limits. I would not let child molesters "live". I believe eternal Hell raises to that level of harm. This as an example. I think simply shrugging it off as , hey it does not affect me so why bother is very, very selfish. I do care about harm that befalls other people. These beliefs are not something like, well, you know, in my town there's guy with an ugly hay. Not. Countless people have and still suffer because of them. You should care. You should be angry. You should be pissed off.

 

I appreciate your reply here.  This is an important point that I think we should explore further.  But not here, based on the Professor's comment.  I may open up this discussion in the Lion's Den at some point.

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

23 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

More discussion... in no particular order:

Thanks Rank,

 

I'm sorry I made ya feel like it was the Spanish inquisition but I did say I had a lot of questions. I will respond later today when I can sit down for awhile. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 1/11/2023 at 12:49 PM, RankStranger said:

Do you retain any vestiges of your Christian beliefs?  Do you still find yourself sometimes fearing hell, longing for heaven, or turning your thoughts toward God?

 

This is something I've pondered on. I still have a lot of my political leanings that I developed as a Christian but even a lot of that has changed since my deconversion. For instance things like gay rights. Before as a Christian I was pretty much a classic all gays are going to hell believer. Since deconversion and maybe even during the questioning stage before my deconversion this started to change in me. I realized that as an American people should have the right to freely love who they want to love and be married to that person as long as they are both consenting adults. The only reason for that to be denied to people would be based on religious belief. Which is a direct violation of the separation of church and state. Now as a deconvert I embrace gay rights more. I'm also not as big on the pro life movement. But I do still think late term abortions are a sick concept. In my opinion and this is strictly my opinion. If a baby can possibly survive outside of the mothers womb then that is then a life. And it shouldn't be taken. 

     As far as left over religious beliefs. I don't really believe anything "christian" anymore. I do retain a non-theist stance and not an athiest stance. There have been things that have happened to me and experiences I've had that I can't explain away rationally. So I leave the possibility of something "more" or something "supernatural" to exist. Sometimes I do like to pray. But when I do, I pray to what we Masons like to refer to as "The Grand Architect". To most that is just another name for the Christian God. But masonry accepts people from many faiths. So the term isn't exclusive to one particular God.

 

(Btw: nothing I just mentioned are any of the masonic "secrets" anything that is written is acceptable to talk about openly.)

 

As an engineer you probably see the world a lot like I do. I have been in Industrial maintenance for most of my life. I've worked my way up to Mechatronic Technician. When I look at the world and see how so much works together to promote life on this planet. Much like a machine. I can't help but think that intelligent design is a possibility. But I also realize that if I had been plopped down on earth a few billion years ago I would say this planet is barren and lifeless.

 

I also have a strong belief in the possibility of panspermia and that life on our planet could have had a big boost from preserved fertilized embryos flung into space from another planet with life on it. The problem is that science hasn't found and adequate explanation for how life began on earth and further more they haven't been able to replicate it. This may change tomorrow so who knows? But until they do I will retain an open mind. But not to the Christian Narrative. There is just to much evidence that the Bible is just another of man's mythologies to explain why everything is the way it is. And also to keep people in check. 

 

As far as hoping for heaven..... no. I do not hope for the bibles heaven. My heaven would be a very different heaven. I think any heaven that requires the constant worship to the Supreme deity is a pretty shitty afterlife. 

 

I do still retain hope for other possibilities for an afterlife. 

 

Unfortunately, since Hell seems to be stressed more during indoctrination every once in awhile I will have that niggling doubt of what if I'm wrong that I have to deal with. When that happens I just think about all the facts I've discovered over the past 6 years. And I will pick up another book to read that adds to my anti-hell arsenal in my mind. I'm currently reading a book suggested by @Fuego called "God: an anatomy" so far it is a very good study about the evolution of the Christian God and how other Gods attributed to it.

 

On 1/11/2023 at 12:49 PM, RankStranger said:

On a rational level, it would be fair to say that I'm an Agnostic Christian.  But it turns out that I also have some amount of faith... which is not contingent on any rational explanation.  It has remained, regardless of what my rational mind believes

 

I think this is probably the best category you could put yourself in from everything you have told us. I'm glad that your experience as an athiest has given you a modified Christian belief concept that hopefully won't be toxic. Your much less likely now to fall for (like you said) preacher Billy Bobs irrational toxic assertions when they come. And they will come. That much is pretty much inevitable in most any church. 

 

On 1/11/2023 at 12:49 PM, RankStranger said:

This opens up a whole discussion into the nature of belief.  What exactly is belief?  How does one know if one believes something?  It's something I've chewed on for most of my life, for obvious evangelical reasons.  As an Atheist I would've said that if I couldn't rationally justify something, then I didn't believe it.  I no longer think that's the case.  Nor do I think I necessarily have a choice in the matter.

 

I would be interested in participating in this thread if you start it. It would be a good subject delve into. Probably either on the lions den or maybe even the exchristian spirituality forum. 

 

On 1/11/2023 at 12:49 PM, RankStranger said:

After quite a bit of reading, podcasting, meditation, prayer, etc., I've come think that the only way I can forgive is to come to a new understanding of my past.  To integrate my adult understanding of the world with the dysfunctional childhood I left behind.  And well, here we are.  In some ways it's not unlike a person with a phobia slowly and methodically exposing themselves to their trigger.  I started praying years ago... and it's been baby-steps since then.

 

I think all of us who have deconverted and had any length of time in the church can probably relate to the anger your talking about. One of the things I've done is to realize that I can be angry at the religion and the teachings. But I also have to accept that those that are spreading those beliefs are victims of indoctrination themselves. We were all there once upon a time. Completely engrossed in this belief that everyone is going to hell if they don't believe: (insert whatever various Christian belief here) so for them they are doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. They truly believe they are saving people from eternal damnation. So how can I blame them. This is what they are programmed to do. Just like I was. JUST AS WE WERE. Or atleast most of us here were. 

 

I think forgiveness is a good thing. Especially when you have so much left over unresolved problems. Hopefully through this you will achieve what your looking for in that respect and reconnect with your family like you want to. I just wish you were able to do that without religion. But I know every family is different. I started opening up to my family last year about my unbelief. I recently told my brother that I am fully deconverted and can no longer believe. So far I still have a close connection with my family. But like I said before. We already had to work around religious differences. But they have always loved me and we've kept a relationship no matter what those differences were. 

 

I think your family needs to open there minds slightly as well. It shouldn't be one sided. I just don't think that is healthy either. Hopefully you can make that happen and don't have to present yourself as a full believer for them to accept you. 

 

On 1/11/2023 at 12:49 PM, RankStranger said:

IMO that suggests that Preacher BillyBob and/or his nasty self-serving version of Christianity still has power over me.  Power to piss me off.  Power to separate me from my non-skeptical, permanently-Christian parents.  Power to make me so uncomfortable that I have to leave lest I make an ass of myself... just based on his words and mannerisms.  

 

I've decided that Preacher BillyBob no longer has that power over me.  I may prove it to myself again at some point by visiting Church Camp 

 

I hope you keep this resolve against Billy bob and his antics but I really hope you don't engross yourself in church camp. When you made your initial post on this thread I encouraged you because I have done similar things with my family. I've gone to church with my Ex Wife, Ex Father in-law, and my parents. Church truly has no effect on me anymore. (Edit: maybe a better wording is church no longer has any effect OVER me, in other words going to church doesn't make me want to become Christian again) And I do clap and sing along with the hymns. And I even feel that old feeling of something spiritual well up EVEN AS AN UNBELIEVER surprisingly . But I know all that is an activation of hormones in my brain and body. The same as if I was at any public event sharing an experience with other humans. Like a football game. If the Christian God was real, those spiritual feelings wouldn't come. He would completely throw me into a fit of guilty condemnation and force me to repent for my unbelieving wicked ways. 

 

I know you would've gone anyway because it's what you felt you needed to do. But when I encouraged you based on your initial post. I thought your resolve was akin to mine. However the result of your trip to church wasn't the same outcome as mine. Which leads me to believe that you may be more susceptible. And IMO based the evolution of this thread. Being engrossed in a church camp for (X) number of days could be a bad thing. So I'm gonna have to discourage that whether you take what I say as a grain of salt ot not. I'm only another human giving advice. It could be good. It could be bad. So take it or leave it. But I hope you atleast consider the possibility that it could be a bad idea. 

 

This is getting lengthy. I'm gonna take a short break and then I'll reply to your other post later. I'll also have to fix all my typos that I typically have in my posts on this one. 

 

Best regards,

 

Dark Bishop

 

[Myrkhoos]

By the way, I have yet to find even a semblance of a counterargurment that is not patently absurd to the following statement - An all powerful, all knowing, all loving being should be able to convince every other being of its existence, without any possibility of doubt. That is why I kind of stopped worrying about this whole thing, to some extent. In a paradoxical way, I have way more "faith" in that God that many believers do - if he wants to reveal Himself convincingly, he will. If not, well there is nothing I can do about it. And that's the last thing I am saying here, 'cause I don't want to hijack the topic any further.

[Henndigo]

On 1/13/2023 at 2:33 AM, RankStranger said:

 

More discussion... in no particular order:

 

 

I think this is a point worth looking at- because it seems to me that most ExChristians- or at least a large subset- see things much the same way as you.  All or nothing.  It's interesting that so many fundamentalists and ExChristians agree on that particular point.

 

That's how I was taught to believe too, but IMO the 'all or nothing' view is incompatible with what I know of the history of the Bible and Christianity as a practice. 

 

Christianity existed for hundreds of years before the Bible as we know it even existed.  Therefore they couldn't have been explicitly following "The Bible".  Sure they followed parts of what became The Bible- and a lot of other non-biblical stuff as well.

 

I think everybody here, myself included, can agree that the Bible shouldn't be taken literally as a complete, internally consistent, historically accurate, authoritative work.  Its history and its own text just doesn't bear that out.

 

But does that mean we have to take 'nothing' from it?  IMO anybody who grew up in a Christian society takes quite a bit from the Bible implicitly, via culture and tradition, whether we choose that or not.  And we all know that there's a ton of pre-Christian mythology written into The Bible- IMO that's part of what makes the work so compelling.  These are stories that have evolved and been passed down for thousands of years.  I'm not saying that makes it literally true.  But there is a certain power in these stories, and reasons why people have found them compelling for thousands of years.

 

Before I left for good, I tried the best of both worlds approach.  I reasoned with myself that I could approach the Bible spiritually and reading the books selectively. For example not read Joshua which left me feeling aghast with the violence of it but focus say on James which was more about practical living.  Revelation was out.  During church prayer, I would tune in for the bits where empathy for others who were suffering was being said but would tune out when the railing against the evils of the world was being expressed (usually things like homosexuality rather than poverty).  I distinctly remember focussing on my breathing, counting each breath.  I found listening to a lot of the sermons difficult for that reason too.

 

I think what was difficult about it from my point of view is that you do have to practice a level of deception with other in the church who do take most of the Bible literally.  They believe you are in church in good faith, believing the same things that they do.  They have group discussions on say evolution or homosexuality and they expect you to agree in that sense of shared fellowship.  I found that when someone would go on about atheists, feminists, homosexuality, evolution, other Christians  etc I would just go silent to avoid upsetting anyone or just remove myself and walk away.  It was very lonely.

 

I did not feel I was being authentic and the sense of cognitive dissonance was difficult.  If you are in a very liberal or low commitment church it might be a lot easier but even liberal Christians very much believe in God and the power of prayer.   I could have gone to a more liberal church and did visit some but I chose not to ultimately.   It felt like I was just in effect worshipping myself by trying to create a god I could believe in.  Some liberal believers perform gymnastics to try and avoid the reality of the Bible e.g believing that the genocides in the Old Testament never happened and the verses describing them were instead an attempt to unify the Israelites into a nation. 

 

I still work with my former cobelievers and surprisingly to me I don’t feel so conflicted anymore.  I can now adopt a businesslike approach to providing the services they require and be sensitive about their beliefs while there.  It helps too that there are among the staff atheists and other former members of the church too and together we are all sensitive.  I am much happier for it.

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

4 hours ago, Henndigo said:

 

I would just go silent to avoid upsetting anyone or just remove myself and walk away.  It was very lonely.

I did not feel I was being authentic and the sense of cognitive dissonance was difficult.

 

 

Ditto.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 1/12/2023 at 10:33 AM, RankStranger said:

 

More discussion... in no particular order:

 

 

I think this is a point worth looking at- because it seems to me that most ExChristians- or at least a large subset- see things much the same way as you.  All or nothing.  It's interesting that so many fundamentalists and ExChristians agree on that particular point.

 

That's how I was taught to believe too, but IMO the 'all or nothing' view is incompatible with what I know of the history of the Bible and Christianity as a practice. 

 

Christianity existed for hundreds of years before the Bible as we know it even existed.  Therefore they couldn't have been explicitly following "The Bible".  Sure they followed parts of what became The Bible- and a lot of other non-biblical stuff as well.

 

I think everybody here, myself included, can agree that the Bible shouldn't be taken literally as a complete, internally consistent, historically accurate, authoritative work.  Its history and its own text just doesn't bear that out.

 

But does that mean we have to take 'nothing' from it?  IMO anybody who grew up in a Christian society takes quite a bit from the Bible implicitly, via culture and tradition, whether we choose that or not.  And we all know that there's a ton of pre-Christian mythology written into The Bible- IMO that's part of what makes the work so compelling.  These are stories that have evolved and been passed down for thousands of years.  I'm not saying that makes it literally true.  But there is a certain power in these stories, and reasons why people have found them compelling for thousands of years.

 

 

I'm gonna have to not pull a punch here. Just being honest. But read it all. I do respect what you're doing. 

 

Hello again Rank,

 

I don't agree with your reasoning here. Your whole explanation only promotes more reasons NOT to believe. I agree that the Bible evolved and what we see today is an evolved biblical narrative that has been tweaked, rewritten, forged, and modified over the course of thousands of years. THOUSANDS! But that is only more reason not to give it any credit what so ever. 

 

Consider this, the bible promotes an Omni God. But that is included in the evolutions. So maybe you don't consider that a problem. But IMO any "God" should be powerful enough to keep there story atleast remotely on point. Just the fact the story of the Christian God evolves over time proves that this God is powerless and unworthy of worship. The fact that Jesus may have been an accumulation of many different Jesus's mixed with mythological stories from other religions is plenty of reason not to worship him. 

 

I'm not trying to be mean here. But honestly. With all that knowledge of how the scripture evolved from mythology, how non of it is historically accurate, and how the facts prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that what we were indoctrinated with is.

 

1. all a lie or atleast a modified version of the truth. 

 

2. Was a myth based on the beliefs of an ancient uneducated (from our perspective) people. 

 

3. Should not be taken literally or true. 

 

Why is there any reason to believe? You literally just described everything that makes me not believe anymore. There is absolutely nothing else necessary.

 

Lmao  

 

Guess ya read my mind cuz ya been there too. But yeah thats it. If I go back farther then its basically believing in the Christian equivalent of Buddha. So I guess in that respect as funny as it sounds. Your a Christian Buddhist. 

 

And I don't mean that to be sarcastic. I actually think its a pretty cool term. Jesus at this point is your Buddha. Focusing on all the good aspects of Christianity and the zen that that could be. If everyone were actually that way. 

 

I can respect that from that perspective. 

 

But......... ultimately thats not what happened and Buddha Jesus was powerless to stop it. Millions if not billions died by either being persecuted, persecuting, or waging war for or against the Jesus that ended being what actually made true history. 

 

So that's not for me either. 

 

But I can respect what your doing. I can see how it would be fulfilling to go back to and find the "possible" original Jesus in your heart. I bet he was a good guy. At one point in time I felt that guy was my best friend. And if we are fortunate enough to beat the odds and have an afterlife. I hope I meet him there. But thats about as far as I can go with that. It would be cool to meet the man behind the myth and actually talk to them and find out the truth of it all.

 

And I hope that brings you the peace and happiness you deserve. Thats what matters. What works for you bro. And if it brings you closer to your family. Then its worth it. We only have them for so long. You do what you gotta do and you do you. I really do apologize for getting offensive in the beginning. I completely misunderstood your meaning and what you were going through. I appreciate ya answering all my questions and as far as I'm concerned the "Dark Bishop Inquisition" is now over. .  

 

Best regards,

 

Dark Bishop

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Rank, I am lost.  (no pun intended) I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make.  Are you trying to convince yourself that you are doing the right thing by going back to church??

[Ro-bear]

This was not on my bingo card for last year.

 

The last time I was in my old church was over forty years ago.  But I still go to church for weddings and funerals.  I even went to my great-nephew's christening a few years back, but that was at a UU church so it barely counts in my book.

[RankStranger]

On 1/13/2023 at 11:02 PM, Weezer said:

Rank, I am lost.  (no pun intended) I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make.  Are you trying to convince yourself that you are doing the right thing by going back to church??

 

Just explaining where I'm at these days.  Some will get it, some won't.

 

I'm not here to preach.  Nor to debate (in this thread anyway).  As much as anything, this thread is an explanation for people who have known me for a long time.  So if I start Jesus-spamming, you'll all know where I'm coming from 

 

Seriously though, I'll spare you all the Jesus-Spam.  But I may start a thread or two in the Lion's Den.  I think it's worth chewing on the question of whether I have some kind of duty to oppose Christianity... fully acknowledging that it's been toxic for me in the past, and still is for millions.

 

 

[RankStranger]

11 hours ago, Ro-bear said:

This was not on my bingo card for last year.

 

The last time I was in my old church was over forty years ago.  But I still go to church for weddings and funerals.  I even went to my great-nephew's christening a few years back, but that was at a UU church so it barely counts in my book.

 

I went to the local UU church several times maybe 14-15 years ago, but didn't stick with it.  I may go back again at some point just out of curiosity though.  I liked the somewhat traditional-Christian format, but with a group of people who are definitely not pushy fundamentalists.  But I didn't care for some political stuff woven into the ceremony.  Granted it wasn't the nasty/hateful right-wing politics that you'll find in a lot of churches, but it still felt contrived.

 

I'm not suggesting in this thread that ExChristians should re-visit their old church... that's just my own project.  But for me, being able to be there and enjoy it- twice now- has been a really meaningful experience.  It's something that I thought was impossible for decades.  Now it's possible.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 hours ago, RankStranger said:

But for me, being able to be there and enjoy it- twice now- has been a really meaningful experience.  It's something that I thought was impossible for decades.  Now it's possible.

I can also relate to this.  For many years I considered myself strictly a man of science and reason.  I had neither the time nor the inclination to pursue anything spiritual.  Not to mention that I associated anything considered "spiritual" with the same kind of jesus woo that caused so much trauma and damage in my life.  Faith healers or healing crystals--it was all the same to me.

 

That changed a few years when I realized that "spiritual" could, and for me should, mean nothing more than getting in touch with my Self and trying to live more in the Moment.  Ms. Professor and I had a really good community at the local Buddhist temple back home.  For her, it was a cultural experience as well as spiritual; and it made me happy to see her happy.  For me, I didn't get much out of the chanting and such.  But having that time each week to just sit quietly and reflect, get in touch with my Self, make assessments and adjustments, it all did me a world of good.  

 

We moved about a year ago; and found a new temple almost immediately.  We haven't been able to go for the last couple of months, for reasons.  But we are looking forward to starting back later in the Spring.

 

Like you, I don't expect Buddhist philosophy to work for everyone.  But I have found that the Four Noble Truths provide an adequate spiritual template for me; and the Five Basic Precepts offer me a very practical guide to living a good life.  And this is much easier for me to swallow than the whole sin, substitutionary death, hellfire, and omnibenevolent god thing. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

13 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

  I think it's worth chewing on the question of whether I have some kind of duty to oppose Christianity... fully acknowledging that it's been toxic for me in the past, and still is for millions.

 

Now I see your quandry.  Thanks.