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Goodbye Jesus

More convinced 99 percent of religion is just psychological defense mechanisms/indoctrination


Myrkhoos

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It is patently clear that the belief in transcendent beings, or discarnate minds, or realities beyond ordinary perception are pervasive across mankind, irrespective of geography, history, gender, etc. Not that all believed it all 100 percent of the time, but enough that it was and still is the majority. The more I read, the more I think this is because we have natural, inbred instincts to find order, protection,affection and guidance in this very fuzzy, dangerous and cruel, cold world. It is virtually easier to think of a volcano as an angry God than just a cold geological mechanism you cannot influence in any way. That is why I think, with technlogy and knowledge progressing, religion wanes - those needs are starting to be met by other things. God/Gods are parents, lawmakers, nurturers, spectacular, etc. These inbred, biological needs are, FAR stronger that reason, and ideed, many times reason is subservient to them. Our whole perception of the world is warped and shaped by them. Think about this, If you are starving, which is the most powerful drive, to find food or to solve an equation? Statistically speaking? That is why there are SO MANY testimonies of - I was in a dark place, and Jesus saved me, or Islam, Or buddhism, or some forms of  philosophical marxism, etc. It is about our physical and psychological survival. Every time a new major religion/sect seems to appear, was in a time of great social upheaval of some sorts.

       I do not think people are stupid or that irrational/illogical , etc to to be so attached to religious ideas that seems absurd or naive from the getgo. But it is rarely about that. I realised this when I thought that my grandfather was in a war, my grandmother had four brothers that died young of measles I think. They lived a life full of danger and death. That has have an impact on you. The most genius can fall in love and kill himself because of heartbreak. Or at least suffer tremendously. That is why religion, or this type of attitude will really leave us, and not just transform into something else, or at least diminish, when we have grand scale, worldwide social welfare and psychological education and acces to therapy. More so than even critical thinking/general cognitive education, although they have to go together. Just an opinion, not saying this make everyone atheists or sceptics, but I sure do think would really help. Reason tends to work very hard in conditions of insatisfied biological and emotional needs.

      Opinions?

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4 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

It is patently clear that the belief in transcendent beings, or discarnate minds, or realities beyond ordinary perception are pervasive across mankind, irrespective of geography, history, gender, etc. Not that all believed it all 100 percent of the time, but enough that it was and still is the majority.

Yes, but humans do this with a lot of things.  Romantic relationships, for example are often "built" on "love and affection."  It sounds a lot more sterile and cold to say such relationships are a result of chemical reactions in our brain and hormonal responses in our bodies that are not under our control.  But is that not the "truth?"  And if so, what good would come of recognizing this as truth?  Would it change anything?

 

4 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

It is virtually easier to think of a volcano as an angry God than just a cold geological mechanism you cannot influence in any way.

We still do this with things other than volcanoes.  Football is just a bunch of men chasing around a ball, right?  Why get do the fans get so emotional about that?  (P.S. GO BILLs! LOL)

 

I think the real question is why are we as humans wired to ascribe more meaning to things in a way that cannot be measured? Why do we tend to create a sort of intangible shared spiritual experience with other humans?   Is this really an evolutionary response necessary for the survival of our species?  One could argue that its actually detrimental.  Our emotional attachment to certain geographies, peoples, and among other things, certain beliefs (including, of course, religious beliefs) has led to wars that have destroyed our own kind - and may someday wipe out our species.  Yet these emotional experiences we create (or perceive) seem to transcend all others as being the most meaningful in our lives - even though in a sense they aren't "real" because they exist only in our minds.  It seems we need these transcendental experiences or perhaps, we would otherwise, not be human.  This is why I am open to the possibility of a higher consciousness or even a higher being (but certainly not bible god) that may be revealed with "enlightenment," in whatever way that means. 

 

So I don't think this solution will necessarily work:

 

4 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

That is why religion, or this type of attitude will really leave us, and not just transform into something else, or at least diminish, when we have grand scale, worldwide social welfare and psychological education and acces to therapy.

 

Although I do believe education on a grand scale would help especially in countries where religion tends to fill the education gap, "psychological education - or re-education" can be a slippery slope. 

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Freshstart,

 

Please read what Michael Shermer has to say about human evolution predisposing us to see intelligence agents in our environment when none are really there.

 

https://michaelshermer.com/sciam-columns/agenticity/

 

I find his argument to be very persuasive.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

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We have to be extremely careful with the "enlightenment" approach. That was tried back in 20th-century Russia and resulted in disaster (China learned that lesson the hard way too; when you're standing on the edge of a cliff is not the best time to take a "Great Leap Forward").

 

Veering from a religious extreme to a materialistic extreme is clearly not a solution. It has to be tempered with a willingness to wonder about what we don't know. Einstein's exhortation to "never stop questioning" empowers us to question even our assumptions about how much is possible, and that's necessary if we're to be serious thinkers.

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3 hours ago, freshstart said:

Yes, but humans do this with a lot of things.  Romantic relationships, for example are often "built" on "love and affection."  It sounds a lot more sterile and cold to say such relationships are a result of chemical reactions in our brain and hormonal responses in our bodies that are not under our control.  But is that not the "truth?"  And if so, what good would come of recognizing this as truth?  Would it change anything?

 

We still do this with things other than volcanoes.  Football is just a bunch of men chasing around a ball, right?  Why get do the fans get so emotional about that?  (P.S. GO BILLs! LOL)

So? Your response is like me saying Apples are fruit and you say, yes, but pears are also a fruit. Yes, have I ever said otherwise? As to what good would come of it...it depends on your definition of good. I kind of think truth is the highest good in itself. Your example with a football match - The real football world cup final just happened, what you Americans call football is more like handball, and Argentina won, is not a good analogy though. Nobody pressuposes in itself that a football match is more than what you see. But a god in a volcano is more than that, but anyone that would just proves my point. People very easily build extreme attachments and mainly act on them. In general.

3 hours ago, freshstart said:

 

I think the real question is why are we as humans wired to ascribe more meaning to things in a way that cannot be measured? Why do we tend to create a sort of intangible shared spiritual experience with other humans?   Is this really an evolutionary response necessary for the survival of our species?  One could argue that its actually detrimental.  Our emotional attachment to certain geographies, peoples, and among other things, certain beliefs (including, of course, religious beliefs) has led to wars that have destroyed our own kind - and may someday wipe out our species.  Yet these emotional experiences we create (or perceive) seem to transcend all others as being the most meaningful in our lives - even though in a sense they aren't "real" because they exist only in our minds.  It seems we need these transcendental experiences or perhaps, we would otherwise, not be human.  This is why I am open to the possibility of a higher consciousness or even a higher being (but certainly not bible god) that may be revealed with "enlightenment," in whatever way that means. 

 

So I don't think this solution will necessarily work:

 

 

Although I do believe education on a grand scale would help especially in countries where religion tends to fill the education gap, "psychological education - or re-education" can be a slippery slope. 

My whole post was an explanation of the"why". So, read my original post for my opinion on it :). Psychological education means making making psychological information largely accesible. Not forcing people. But having free therapy for everyone would be a good thing. I mean, by your logic, anything is a slippery slope :))

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2 hours ago, Moonobserver said:

We have to be extremely careful with the "enlightenment" approach. That was tried back in 20th-century Russia and resulted in disaster (China learned that lesson the hard way too; when you're standing on the edge of a cliff is not the best time to take a "Great Leap Forward").

 

Veering from a religious extreme to a materialistic extreme is clearly not a solution. It has to be tempered with a willingness to wonder about what we don't know. Einstein's exhortation to "never stop questioning" empowers us to question even our assumptions about how much is possible, and that's necessary if we're to be serious thinkers.

I don't get how you get from what I said to bolshevic totalitarian indoctrination which is as far away from education and social welfare as anything can be. I live in a former communist country - Romania, and know too well. Of course you have to be open and learn HOW to better question. I was talking about free , quality education for everyone and a social welfare system that, as much as possible, takes care of basic needs of food, housing and medical care.I think that would be a good thing in itself, no?

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Myrkhoos, you are onto something!  As a behavioral/social scientist I believe religion can be a "substitute" for the basic human need for belonging and feeling worthwhile.  That is at our Psychological core.  If society will ever figure this out, divine religions will fade away.  We are social animals and we get those needs met through nurturing relationships with others.  But greed, and survival of the fittest, bully thinking, and living in huge impersonal communities detract from getting those needs met.  And face it.  Corporations make big money off of riots, and wars and divisions of people.  And our selfish egos are being promoted in our society.  Scientific evidence shows that mutual respect, caring for, and nurturing others creates wholesome environments.  Wise people of the ages saw this and came up with the golden rule, but it has been ignored for eons. 

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3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Freshstart,

 

Please read what Michael Shermer has to say about human evolution predisposing us to see intelligence agents in our environment when none are really there.

 

https://michaelshermer.com/sciam-columns/agenticity/

 

I find his argument to be very persuasive.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

My whole post was a possible explanation of it. For me the evolutionary usefulness of these belief systems seems obvious. For one thing it is virtually impossible for us to create large scale socities without such shared notions. I mean people now feel reverence for America, or democracy, or..etc, some sort of idea of humanity. Just that our inbred , biological systems were not built for modern technology. Nuclear weapons, AI, gene editing and everything else are just outside our general adaptive instincts. They are so NEW!. the last 100-200 years have just totally overwhelmed our systems :))

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A football game is survival of the fittest, ego driven, us verses them thinking.  And winning feels good!   But if that thinking permeates society, we have a problem.

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OOOPS!  this conversation is going so fast, that you have to type fast or your point gets lost!

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13 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

 

 it is virtually impossible for us to create large scale socities without such shared notions.

 

Yes.  It is my understanding that in larger society  (over about 125 people) there needs to be a common belief, a common cause, to hold things together.  And that can be a fearful situation.  Shrewd people know this and have created "wars" to bring sguabbling people together.

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Another point about our needs for belonging and feeling worthwhile.  These needs become more prevelant as we advance beyond mere survival.  When we are fighting for our lives, we aren't too concerned about whether we belong, or someone loves us.

 

This is just a personal observation, but I have a hunch that people who have been nurtured from birth and feel really secure, have less needs for "excitement" to feel alive.  And fewer needs for someone, or something outside themselves to make them feel "alive", or good. 

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1 hour ago, Myrkhoos said:

 

 quality education for everyone and a social welfare system that, as much as possible, takes care of basic needs of food, housing and medical care.I think that would be a good thing in itself, no?

 

 

That you Myrkhoos for posting this thread.  You have me on a role!  

 

One more comment about "feeling worthwhile".  This is very important in modern society, but can be VERY TRICKY.  Sometimes very well meaning people do too much for others and undermine this feeling.  There is a fine line between "nurturing" people and doing too much for them.  Yes, infants need unconditional nurturing and encouragement.  But as people mature they gradually take on feeling worthwhile by doing worthwhile things.   As they age they need to slowly take on responsibility for themselves, and pulling their own weight in society.  And by doing things to help others do the same.  I agree with welfare programs that help people who actually can't help themselves, but doing too much begins to undermine that which helps them feel worthwhile.  Instead of giving them money, housing, etc,  they need jobs that pay a living wage, and pay for their kids lunch at school, instead of receiving free lunches.  "Welfare" is a balancing act that plaques all societies.  I know this is getting off the subject of religion, but it is loosly affiliated.  

 

The doctrine of original sin definitely undermines feeling worthwhile.  The creators of christianity were extremely sly and experts at keeping people in subjection, and providing themselves with religious policemen jobs.  It has kept them in business for thousands of years.   

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10 hours ago, Weezer said:

 

That you Myrkhoos for posting this thread.  You have me on a role!  

 

One more comment about "feeling worthwhile".  This is very important in modern society, but can be VERY TRICKY.  Sometimes very well meaning people do too much for others and undermine this feeling.  There is a fine line between "nurturing" people and doing too much for them.  Yes, infants need unconditional nurturing and encouragement.  But as people mature they gradually take on feeling worthwhile by doing worthwhile things.   As they age they need to slowly take on responsibility for themselves, and pulling their own weight in society.  And by doing things to help others do the same.  I agree with welfare programs that help people who actually can't help themselves, but doing too much begins to undermine that which helps them feel worthwhile.  Instead of giving them money, housing, etc,  they need jobs that pay a living wage, and pay for their kids lunch at school, instead of receiving free lunches.  "Welfare" is a balancing act that plaques all societies.  I know this is getting off the subject of religion, but it is loosly affiliated.  

 

The doctrine of original sin definitely undermines feeling worthwhile.  The creators of christianity were extremely sly and experts at keeping people in subjection, and providing themselves with religious policemen jobs.  It has kept them in business for thousands of years.   

The exact organization of that welfare system is up for debate, of course. But I would disagree with the whole emphasis on personal responsabolity take which I view to be a uniquely western-protestant inspired idea and not at all universal. Of course, I do think people should contribute and not just take. But that is really another discussion. Because I for one think people FIRST need those basic needs met, then talk about what they can offer. Like first you offer a house, food, education and therapy to a homeless person, and AFTER you can give them a job. Otherwise working 9-5 from a tent under the bridge...kind of hard. And I just think most humans would actually WANT to contribute something afterwards. Of course, there are psychopaths, but in my experience most people want to do something they feel is worth it, but not the impersonal alienating jobs we usually have now. That is why Marx said religion is the opium of the people, because it dulls them to this reality and how it can be changed with the hope of a blissfull afterlife. Doesn't matter that now our overconsumeristic lifestyle is bringing global warming, this world is doomed anyway and after that Heaven for the righteous. That is why it can be very damaging. This extremely delayed gratification system of the afterlife can be...too delayed :))

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17 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

I don't get how you get from what I said to bolshevic totalitarian indoctrination which is as far away from education and social welfare as anything can be.

The point I was trying to make was that the Bolsheviks themselves *did* get there.

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It's a great topic! Evolution is typically a "good enough for survival" thing, rather than giving us a perfect advancement. The humans don't have great eyesight, hearing, smell, and such. Our forte is abstract thinking (where we get language, math, tools, music), so when looking for an edge on survival, desperation moves us to call out to a possible imaginary parent. If we survive, maybe the parent figure helped (as did asking for help). Most animals will cry out for help if stuck in a trap or mud. Who in nature would typically help besides someone of their own kind, if nothing other than to gather around and be with the stuck one who is dying? This may be where humans anthropomorphize the invisible gods into people or beings like people (Egypt). But in nature, predators are attracted to cries for help. Hunters mimic the scream of a wounded rabbit to draw in predators. 

 

Religion is us trying to pay back, satisfy, and avoid offending the invisible being we hope will help us. Even outside of primitive survival, gods became national beliefs because victory in battle was ascribed to their magic power, and priests (who sometimes made a great living off religion) made sure that the gods were entwined with government and that everyone was obedient. 

 

Entheogens and hallucinogenics probably also contributed to god-experiences. Our brains can be like a Star Trek holodeck providing very real-feeling experiences of oneness with all life, of interactions with deities, of becoming other people and creatures. Some speculate that our abstract thinking was even bootstrapped by these substances (mushrooms, ergot, hensbane, mandrake, salvia, etc) early in evolution. That doesn't mean that the beings are real separate entities, just abstractions that can feel real. 

 

I've had some fascinating religious experiences that felt like I was interacting with the god of the bible. In retrospect I don't know what was actually happening. But it seemed to be a distinct being actually answering a question here or there, and giving clear commands so there was no mistake about who was talking to me. Then there were the "presence" experiences of energy zipping up and down in my body, focused on the abdomen, hands shaking like the old Shaker/Quaker tradition. These kinds of things seemed to confirm that I was actually following a living god. But the deprogramming of deconversion made it damn clear that the bible god wasn't really god. But I'm left wondering what it was. It could be another part of my mind filling in the blank of a god that "should" be responding. And people with certain mental illness often claim to hear voices or gods speaking. I don't know what to make of it in myself yet. 

 

 

 

 

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Anyway, my main personal takeway from all this is the necessity to develop a deeper, more meaningful connection to my own emotional state, so that I am more aware of myself and motivations. I think all could benefit from a deeper connection and understanding of our own and other's emotional state, actually.

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4 hours ago, Fuego said:

It's a great topic! Evolution is typically a "good enough for survival" thing, rather than giving us a perfect advancement. The humans don't have great eyesight, hearing, smell, and such. Our forte is abstract thinking (where we get language, math, tools, music), so when looking for an edge on survival, desperation moves us to call out to a possible imaginary parent. If we survive, maybe the parent figure helped (as did asking for help). Most animals will cry out for help if stuck in a trap or mud. Who in nature would typically help besides someone of their own kind, if nothing other than to gather around and be with the stuck one who is dying? This may be where humans anthropomorphize the invisible gods into people or beings like people (Egypt). But in nature, predators are attracted to cries for help. Hunters mimic the scream of a wounded rabbit to draw in predators. 

 

Religion is us trying to pay back, satisfy, and avoid offending the invisible being we hope will help us. Even outside of primitive survival, gods became national beliefs because victory in battle was ascribed to their magic power, and priests (who sometimes made a great living off religion) made sure that the gods were entwined with government and that everyone was obedient. 

It also adds the feeling of being protected, loved, etc. It can make you feel good.

4 hours ago, Fuego said:

 

Entheogens and hallucinogenics probably also contributed to god-experiences. Our brains can be like a Star Trek holodeck providing very real-feeling experiences of oneness with all life, of interactions with deities, of becoming other people and creatures. Some speculate that our abstract thinking was even bootstrapped by these substances (mushrooms, ergot, hensbane, mandrake, salvia, etc) early in evolution. That doesn't mean that the beings are real separate entities, just abstractions that can feel real. 

 

I've had some fascinating religious experiences that felt like I was interacting with the god of the bible. In retrospect I don't know what was actually happening. But it seemed to be a distinct being actually answering a question here or there, and giving clear commands so there was no mistake about who was talking to me. Then there were the "presence" experiences of energy zipping up and down in my body, focused on the abdomen, hands shaking like the old Shaker/Quaker tradition. These kinds of things seemed to confirm that I was actually following a living god. But the deprogramming of deconversion made it damn clear that the bible god wasn't really god. But I'm left wondering what it was. It could be another part of my mind filling in the blank of a god that "should" be responding. And people with certain mental illness often claim to hear voices or gods speaking. I don't know what to make of it in myself yet. 

I understand where you are coming from. I also do not really know what to make of my spiritual experiences, although the image of the Bible God as usually put forth seems a moral monster, and VERY far away, actually, from my experiences of being loved, accepted, forgiven and guided. Recently, I have really started to come to this conclusion, that the God of my spiritual experiences and the conventional dogma Orthodox Christian Bible God are actually diametrically opposed in many areas.

4 hours ago, Fuego said:

 

 

 

 

 

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On 12/18/2022 at 2:29 AM, Myrkhoos said:

It is patently clear that the belief in transcendent beings, or discarnate minds, or realities beyond ordinary perception are pervasive across mankind, irrespective of geography, history, gender, etc. Not that all believed it all 100 percent of the time, but enough that it was and still is the majority. The more I read, the more I think this is because we have natural, inbred instincts to find order, protection,affection and guidance in this very fuzzy, dangerous and cruel, cold world. It is virtually easier to think of a volcano as an angry God than just a cold geological mechanism you cannot influence in any way. That is why I think, with technlogy and knowledge progressing, religion wanes - those needs are starting to be met by other things. God/Gods are parents, lawmakers, nurturers, spectacular, etc. These inbred, biological needs are, FAR stronger that reason, and ideed, many times reason is subservient to them. Our whole perception of the world is warped and shaped by them. Think about this, If you are starving, which is the most powerful drive, to find food or to solve an equation? Statistically speaking? That is why there are SO MANY testimonies of - I was in a dark place, and Jesus saved me, or Islam, Or buddhism, or some forms of  philosophical marxism, etc. It is about our physical and psychological survival. Every time a new major religion/sect seems to appear, was in a time of great social upheaval of some sorts.

       I do not think people are stupid or that irrational/illogical , etc to to be so attached to religious ideas that seems absurd or naive from the getgo. But it is rarely about that. I realised this when I thought that my grandfather was in a war, my grandmother had four brothers that died young of measles I think. They lived a life full of danger and death. That has have an impact on you. The most genius can fall in love and kill himself because of heartbreak. Or at least suffer tremendously. That is why religion, or this type of attitude will really leave us, and not just transform into something else, or at least diminish, when we have grand scale, worldwide social welfare and psychological education and acces to therapy. More so than even critical thinking/general cognitive education, although they have to go together. Just an opinion, not saying this make everyone atheists or sceptics, but I sure do think would really help. Reason tends to work very hard in conditions of insatisfied biological and emotional needs.

      Opinions?

 

"More convinced 99 percent of religion is just psychological defense mechanisms/indoctrination"

 

The way that I see it is that religion for most people is based upon their indoctrination as children. Another important factor is that nearly all would prefer an afterlife as apposed to none. But two of the primary things that get in the way of Bible belief is logic -- does it make sense and is there objective evidence that supports such beliefs -- and is there evidence to the contrary?   Evolution science, anthropology, archeology, geology, etc.

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On 12/19/2022 at 2:00 AM, Myrkhoos said:

The exact organization of that welfare system is up for debate, of course. But I would disagree with the whole emphasis on personal responsabolity take which I view to be a uniquely western-protestant inspired idea and not at all universal. Of course, I do think people should contribute and not just take. But that is really another discussion. Because I for one think people FIRST need those basic needs met, then talk about what they can offer. Like first you offer a house, food, education and therapy to a homeless person, and AFTER you can give them a job. Otherwise working 9-5 from a tent under the bridge...kind of hard. And I just think most humans would actually WANT to contribute something afterwards. Of course, there are psychopaths, but in my experience most people want to do something they feel is worth it, but not the impersonal alienating jobs we usually have now. That is why Marx said religion is the opium of the people, because it dulls them to this reality and how it can be changed with the hope of a blissfull afterlife. Doesn't matter that now our overconsumeristic lifestyle is bringing global warming, this world is doomed anyway and after that Heaven for the righteous. That is why it can be very damaging. This extremely delayed gratification system of the afterlife can be...too delayed :))

I think we are basically on the same page about what is needed.  I am talking about what is needed from the time of birth to prevent homelessness and mental problems, and dependance upon "saviors" beyond normal indoctrination.  Working with them after they are grown is a whole other game.  I spent years working with all 3 groups.  Most homeless people have mental problems. They did not recieve the nurturing and encouragement they needed as a child to belive they are worthwhile, and have the capability to take care of themselves.  And different societies handle these "problems" in different ways.  All the way from survival of the fittest, to communism.  

 

But back to your original post.  I agree that religion is in a sense a defense mechanism, designed to sooth the fears left over from childhood, of being abandoned.  They say that is a childs greatest fear.  And is a christian's greatest fear???

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5 hours ago, Weezer said:

I think we are basically on the same page about what is needed.  I am talking about what is needed from the time of birth to prevent homelessness and mental problems, and dependance upon "saviors" beyond normal indoctrination.  Working with them after they are grown is a whole other game.  I spent years working with all 3 groups.  Most homeless people have mental problems. They did not recieve the nurturing and encouragement they needed as a child to belive they are worthwhile, and have the capability to take care of themselves.  And different societies handle these "problems" in different ways.  All the way from survival of the fittest, to communism.  

I think you have more experience. My reaction was probably due to the fact that "personal responsability" is, unfortunately a term so used by the far right types ( the everything bad happens is your fault, everything good is your sole merit people) that it kind of became a loaded term

5 hours ago, Weezer said:

But back to your original post.  I agree that religion is in a sense a defense mechanism, designed to sooth the fears left over from childhood, of being abandoned.  They say that is a childs greatest fear.  And is a christian's greatest fear???

Well, strangely enough,in the Orthodox tradition, the more refined one least, sin is seen as separation from God ( they think God's will is an uncreated energy of God, God himself in a certain way, so any deviation from God's will is a separation from God, in a paralel, any separation from a king's command was see as treason against the kingdom in absolute monarchies) and Hell as the eternal conscious separation from God.So..separation from "The Father". :) Separation anxiety at its peak.

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7 hours ago, pantheory said:

 

"More convinced 99 percent of religion is just psychological defense mechanisms/indoctrination"

 

The way that I see it is that religion for most people is based upon their indoctrination as children. Another important factor is that nearly all would prefer an afterlife as apposed to none. But two of the primary things that get in the way of Bible belief is logic -- does it make sense and is there objective evidence that supports such beliefs -- and is there evidence to the contrary?   Evolution science, anthropology, archeology, geology, etc.

I truly believe one's affective attachments can be so great that they TRULY think logic and evidence is on their side. I witnessed this behaviour from educated intelligent people. That is the actual way they SEE the world. That this happens or can happen has been proven by so many psychology experiments and research in cults that it's basically as sure any fact could be in psychology.

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9 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

I truly believe one's affective attachments can be so great that they TRULY think logic and evidence is on their side. I witnessed this behaviour from educated intelligent people. That is the actual way they SEE the world. That this happens or can happen has been proven by so many psychology experiments and research in cults that it's basically as sure any fact could be in psychology.

 

Yep.  The mental conditioning can run extremely deep.  

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9 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

I truly believe one's affective attachments can be so great that they TRULY think logic and evidence is on their side. I witnessed this behaviour from educated intelligent people. That is the actual way they SEE the world. That this happens or can happen has been proven by so many psychology experiments and research in cults that it's basically as sure any fact could be in psychology.

 

I agree, but probably few if any such people are educated in the subjects that matter concerning the science of the Earth and of mankind. A;most none could remain religious IMHO having the following education" A year of college study of Geology, another year of anthropology, another year of archeology, and two years of biology, natural selection, evolution and genetics. Along with 2 years of requited liberal arts education. It' would be hard for anyone to mentally escape obvious facts if you have an extended knowledge of them.

 

Happy holidays 🍹

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3 hours ago, pantheory said:

 

I agree, but probably few if any such people are educated in the subjects that matter concerning the science of the Earth and of mankind. A;most none could remain religious IMHO having the following education" A year of college study of Geology, another year of anthropology, another year of archeology, and two years of biology, natural selection, evolution and genetics. Along with 2 years of requited liberal arts education. It' would be hard for anyone to mentally escape obvious facts if you have an extended knowledge of them.

 

Happy holidays 🍹

I get your point, but they would have to start off by having a basic level of trust in those sciences. If you start off with "these are devilish notions, just keep my head low and act like nothing is happening" then that education will be all for nothing. One needs to be open to be educated. That is the thing. When I was in my most devoted phase I would look at anything contradicting my belief as a demonic or fallen nature delusion, end of period. It wouldn't have mattered what any Nobel prize winner said, or any other authority figure. There was God and there was the Devil. Anything contradicting God's wisdom was to be discarded. That is why, although I agree with general education, that mostly works for lukewarm believers. Which, let's be real, are the VAST majority. ;)

   But lots of religions sow a distrust in one's reason and senses and absolute trust in doctrine and authority. You cannot talk to someone deep into that kind of mentality. He may even grant you that certain things seem.obvious, but that is just because we share a very broken and deluded mind. But that is I think more in Western societies.

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